Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheMadMonk 11-24-07, 01:11 PM	a 26th level rouge/perfect wight. 26th monk/ dreadnought. 25th scout/ ninja. 26th druid. then the oddity a 26th level telepath/ elecuter/vermin lord/hexblade. the monk and the oddity are god blooded, not to mention the oddity is a mind flayer. the rouge has supernatural abilities like the ability to teleport at will and true seeing, also he has a reflex of 32 and an open lock bonus of 48. druid has dragon animal companions. all but the druid are evil. oh and the rouge has the epic leadership and legendary commander feats, he has a kingdom a huge kingdom. I'm using the only thing that can hurt them, taint, oriental style.
PrinceOfTheVoid 11-24-07, 01:28 PM	How is that indestrucible exactly? Either that mind flayer is really like ECl 50+ or his character just plain sucks with that many classes and an ECl15 race + a template. Anyways, if you want to challenge them (read: probably annihilate them), just put them up against a 30th level spellcaster with either very powerful epic spells or many ISC feats combined with multispell. Doesn't matter what the rogue's initiative is, foresgith + greater celerity + intensified time stop wins every time. And if that isn't enough you can always use Gate to summon a Hecatoncheires or 6. Edit: Are you new to epic play, because I get the feeling that it would surpirse you to learn that any epic charcter I've run is immune to nearly every conventional method of attack other than pure damage, requiring cheese like MDJ or epic dispels to bring down their immunities. Honestly, its a totally different game at 21+. Don't just throw 1 high Cr monster at them and expect it to take them down; you have to use tactics and fight fire with fire. If they're power gamers, optimize your monsters.
Gunsen 11-24-07, 04:47 PM	play smart, wear them down. have a plage or fammine come to the kingdome. have creatures that are immune to some of their abilties fight them, like undead. and then hit them with a massive failure of magic. then hit them with plenty of powerful monsters. that should wear them down. or you could steal all of their items and strip away levels with permanit level drain and cursed items.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-24-07, 05:02 PM	I would just like to say that you have no one but yourself to blame for letting them be that overpowered. You could have said no to any of those. Anyway, send a couple of advanced Thorascids, those bugs that drain abilities. Those should wear your party down very well.
PrinceOfTheVoid 11-24-07, 09:38 PM	Or send some Void Dragons and just permanently annihilate their hit dice; no big deal.
BillTheManiac 11-25-07, 09:26 AM	I would just like to say that you have no one but yourself to blame for letting them be that overpowered. You could have said no to any of those. I can't exactly see what's so overpowered about: 26th level rouge/perfect wight. 26th monk/ dreadnought. 25th scout/ ninja. 26th druid. Well this one I can see, I don't know what the classes do, but they could have quite a bit of cheese in the combo: 26th level telepath/ elecuter/vermin lord/hexblade. Maybe it's this: the monk and the oddity are god blooded, not to mention the oddity is a mind flayer. enforce ECL, that should work. God-blooded doesn't seem that great to me the rouge has supernatural abilities like the ability to teleport at will and true seeing, also he has a reflex of 32 and an open lock bonus of 48. So he used 1 prestige class and all the abilities from it, and is essentially immune to all Ref Half effects. Oh well, hit him with Fort or Will. druid has dragon animal companions. Where are the rules for this? Are they overpowered? all but the druid are evil. There's a potential problem, though not overpowering. oh and the rouge has the epic leadership and legendary commander feats, he has a kingdom a huge kingdom. Just control the way he uses it. I'm using the only thing that can hurt them, taint, oriental style. I fail to see how this follows.
Avatar of Kokusho 11-25-07, 10:40 AM	Even if the rogue conjured up the ability to use Dextrous Fortitude and Dextrous Will, hit him with something that requires him to save twice in a row. I did this with a Master Specialist enchanter, myself. Works rather well. Teleportation can be nerfed by dimensional anchors and stuff, and true seeing doesn't see though a perfectly mundane hide. As for the open lock, well, so what if he can open it? If all else fails, throw a spellcaster at 'em. ISC + Multispell + a few other things make even legendary dreadnoughts sad. Taint isn't even the huge thing. If your enemies are monster-types, you're going to have a harder time dredging up an encounter that's challenging. Intelligent enemies (preferably with class levels; I don't remember who said it but integrating class levels with racial hit dice is genius, props to you sir (or ma'am) are far more diffcult to overcome, providing the DM plays them intelligently. A dragon animal companion is interesting to say the least, but not something I would disallow (work it like a paladin gaining a dragon mount and such) providing it isn't some monstrosity with fifty hit dice and more spellcasting than the druid himself. One way I have found to limit even extremely powerful characters in combat is restricting the area of such...it's difficult to fight a dragon if you're in a tunnel and all you can see is the dragon's face, which is breathing at you whenever it gets the chance. Also, don't use the cookie-cutter stuff straight from the books- customize your creatures. If the party's suffering from a bad case of "I think I can kill ANYTHING" do what I did: paragon kobold. Epic Leadership and such is also a powerful tool for a DM; even if he's evil, he's not likely to want his kingdom blasted into a zillion pieces. A party consisting of an infernal and his balor buddies could encourage him to keep a closer eye on the stuff at home, though if you go by revised CR the infernal's more than a bit higher than that party should be able to take on.
Tsochar 11-26-07, 02:20 AM	You don't need an epic solution to fell kingdoms, just use clockwork horrors. They lay waste to everything in their path, and they're too many to stop. If the Rogue has too high a disarm trap modifier, make a trap that's trapped that's trapped, and have that trap be trapped by the first trap, and the whole thing auto-resets. That ought to throw him for a loop, no pun intended. If the oddity needs to be put in his place, sic his former elder brain on him (available in Lords of Madness) and give it a dozen or so levels in Psion. The druid have dragon familiar? That's not the be-all-end-all. I am in the process of making an Advanced Prismatic Great Wyrm Demi-Dracolich, with levels in Dragon Ascendant and Disciple of Arshadalon. EL>100. AC 218. immune to magic. 70+ effective sorceror levels, and the ability to cast almost 300 spells daily. That would make asmodeus himself weep and cower, and causes the gods themselves to tremble. My point is, you are the bloody DM. You have the entire multiverse at your fingertips, and if your players seem invincible, make them see otherwise. If they are disrespecting you and you need to teach them a lesson, make something superbad that will effing destroy them. That's why I keep a list of villains that my characters could never hope to beat, so they don't disrespect me. Use every rule, every template, every loophole you can, but try to give them at least a slim hope of victory. My god, I really am evil.
Sutemi 11-26-07, 03:09 AM	Party is almost 100% evil, so they kill eachother. Put them in situation where common trust is important. They will turn on eachother if they play their characters right. Then comes the monsters, when they are in a middle of fighting each other.
Ebrion 11-26-07, 07:39 AM	If all but the Druid are evil, send sa party of Epic Paladins. Then Smite Evil, and ask questions later. That or Trogdor the Burninator.
Far_Traveler 11-26-07, 08:26 AM	How can a monk qualify for Legendary Dreadnaught? The prerequisete (BaB +25) isn't met until 30th level.
elondir 11-26-07, 08:55 AM	I vote for a bunch of war troll half-black dragon, half-iron golem barbarian/frenzied berserkers. They are immune to magic and subdual damage (half-iron golem), all damage is subdual damage (troll regeneration), and their regeneration cannot be overcome (fire and acid immunities via half-black dragon). They're a terror to confront, and are nearly indestructible except for rust attacks. So find a way to make them rust proof and they are invincible. Second, throw in a few marilith dervish 10's with perfect multiweapon fighting and a bunch of greater wounding weapons that are tricked out with various enhancements (at least one should be speed, for that extra attack on top of the 24 she'll already be doing). Standard full attack will be 25 attacks, 1000 cuts is 49. That's a lot of CON damage (up to 98 if all attacks hit). Third, warp in a bunch of spell weavers and have each one target six magic missiles at a PC. Instant 30d4+30 damage per spell weaver if the PCs don't have shields up. I didn't realize the effectiveness until I pulled six of them out on my 11th level party, it was a 1-round TPK. I gave them mulligans since it wasn't really fair. Fourth, a half-ogre barbarian/war hulk 10/hulking hurler 3 who throws a seeking returning sphere of lead (see the char op board for the damage, it's intense). Fifth, drop a few castles on them. Sixth, and this is the most fun, look at their character sheets and make a monster that can last four rounds against them. I did this with my 11th level party and it ended up being a CR 18. It performed exactly as I wanted it to - four rounds, heavily damaging the PCs, then finally went down in an explosive ball of force that got one or two of them. Not bad for a random encounter. Make sure all damage from breath weapons and death throes is force damage.
Squirrel_Lord 11-26-07, 09:38 PM	Give them a fight they think they can win. Send them against something that looks weak. Tharizdun, for instance. He's just a 6-foot blond guy with fangs and a double ax. It only took an entire pantheon to just imprison him, but he doesn't look that scary. And if your players don't recognize him, you can enjoy the looks on their faces when they finally realize what is kicking them around. :) Or, you could just use the classic method: Fight the Lady of Pain. She took out a god. With one attack. That's power. Dicefreaks had a version of her at CR 203, but unfortunately they're down at the moment, so I offer you this thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=951876. You can find stats about halfway down the page. And they're only CR 85, so they're a bit more reasonable. :smirk:
d0yen 11-27-07, 12:54 AM	If all but the Druid are evil, send sa party of Epic Paladins. Then Smite Evil, and ask questions later. That or Trogdor the Burninator. LOL !!! Trogdor isn't a bad idea, a victory condition that isn't "slay the beast".
Horus_Sungod 11-27-07, 07:02 AM	I vote for a few paragon beholders. Half-golem that for even more carnage. The eye rays will split them apart. I't be fun to see these players fight paragon minotaurs while a beholder antimagics the whole area.
rob_douglas 11-27-07, 09:34 AM	I also refer you to the following thread on the same topic: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=910625 ROB
Loren Pechtel 11-27-07, 12:25 PM	Intelligent spellcasters. I also suspect there are some level issues here and the party is really higher than level 26.
Sagetim 11-27-07, 04:07 PM	I'd suggest using 'the wizard who did it'. You don't have to tell the players how strong the wizard is, how many spells he has, what his hp or ac is. Hell, you could tell them 'no, you can't tell what he has. When you try to cast a spell to figure it out it fails, then you automatically take 30d10 Vile, unresistable damage with no saving throw and no sr to resist it. ' Then have the 'wizard who did it' send them against anything you want them to fight. Then if they really get out of hand put them in the darkness and start rolling 1d1000 every round. When they get a one (or 1000, however you prefer) they get eaten by a Grue. And no, they can't fight the Grue. Have Dwarven paladins carry around anti-torches and fight them in complete darkness, where they will have to deal with Grue's every round. Then, when everyone has made a new character, make sure to enforce some common sense. Enforce ECL, it's there for a reason. A level 26 mindflayer is much stronger than a 26 human.
BillTheManiac 11-27-07, 04:57 PM	I'd suggest using 'the wizard who did it'. You don't have to tell the players how strong the wizard is, how many spells he has, what his hp or ac is. Hell, you could tell them 'no, you can't tell what he has. When you try to cast a spell to figure it out it fails, then you automatically take 30d10 Vile, unresistable damage with no saving throw and no sr to resist it. ' Then have the 'wizard who did it' send them against anything you want them to fight. Then if they really get out of hand put them in the darkness and start rolling 1d1000 every round. When they get a one (or 1000, however you prefer) they get eaten by a Grue. And no, they can't fight the Grue. Have Dwarven paladins carry around anti-torches and fight them in complete darkness, where they will have to deal with Grue's every round. Then, when everyone has made a new character, make sure to enforce some common sense. Enforce ECL, it's there for a reason. A level 26 mindflayer is much stronger than a 26 human. The only good idea in this entire post is enforcing ECL. Don't do any of the others.This is why. (http://www.xkcd.com/292/)
IrishRover 12-03-07, 12:11 AM	Antimatter is your friend... Seriously, a bit of D20 future would be rather interesting....and if they did something foolish, the weapons there are rather impressive
Yodasatomicweed 12-03-07, 07:45 AM	Party is almost 100% evil, so they kill eachother. Put them in situation where common trust is important. They will turn on eachother if they play their characters right. Then comes the monsters, when they are in a middle of fighting each other. Evil characters don't always turn on each other. An evil character can still be trustworthy, though they may be sadistic, brutal, merciless, and kill at the slightest offense. Plus, if you try to turn on a good character, you're not apt to find yourself being sacrificed to the god of slaughter in return for your betrayal...
Genuva 12-04-07, 06:45 PM	Hah, bastard, I'm the 26th rogue
Lobsopdoy 12-05-07, 04:22 PM	2 words. Iron Siege. "Hey guys, have you heard the crap this guy called Dispater's been saying about you? Someone should really teach him a lesson"
BillTheManiac 12-05-07, 06:09 PM	2 words. Iron Siege. "Hey guys, have you heard the crap this guy called Dispater's been saying about you? Someone should really teach him a lesson" You only need a CR 40 monster to kill these guys, tops. Except maybe the guy who doesn't enforce ECL. No need to bring a CR sixtysomething cosmic entity in its sanctum in its home plane, with 18 total CsR, to kill them.
sin_vraal 12-05-07, 07:41 PM	a 26th level rouge/perfect wight. 26th monk/ dreadnought. 25th scout/ ninja. 26th druid. then the oddity a 26th level telepath/ elecuter/vermin lord/hexblade. the monk and the oddity are god blooded, not to mention the oddity is a mind flayer. the rouge has supernatural abilities like the ability to teleport at will and true seeing, also he has a reflex of 32 and an open lock bonus of 48. druid has dragon animal companions. all but the druid are evil. oh and the rouge has the epic leadership and legendary commander feats, he has a kingdom a huge kingdom. I'm using the only thing that can hurt them, taint, oriental style. Option 1 (my fav) Magic Dead Zone, and attack them with 4 Geriviar -- and yes, those explody nodules they have are Extraordinary, not super natural :) Gerivar come in cheap at cr 18. Heck, they have fast healing and regeneration, neither which can be (easily) overcome in anti magic or magic dead. option 2 (rogue may rip them to shreds) Alternatively, attack them with 10 githzeri monks of lower level (level 20? 10 str and 30ish dex). This party doesnt look to me to be the type that waltzs around in adamantine full plate and heavy armor optimization, so without magic, they wont really have much in them versus monks in anti magic (make sure they never leave the anti magic , or if they have to, to commit suicide cuz monks suk normally) Option 3: (probably the most friendly death you can give your PC's, since they can still mostly use their abilities) Sarkrith with class levels. These guys have anti magic bubbles on themselves built in. You should be able to inflict some pain if these str heavy sarkrith have a few Book of nine swords munchkin levels (utilizing all the extraordinary abilities), and simultaneously put them back in their place.
Sutemi 12-06-07, 01:54 AM	Evil characters don't always turn on each other. An evil character can still be trustworthy, though they may be sadistic, brutal, merciless, and kill at the slightest offense. Plus, if you try to turn on a good character, you're not apt to find yourself being sacrificed to the god of slaughter in return for your betrayal... You are right, but it's often easy to do if DM plays his cards right. I think it's important to know how lawful the PC's are. That may be the key here.
meigin 12-11-07, 06:17 PM	you should really just keep the solution simple, over complicating things is just more work for you and ties down the game in mechanics. Go for this: 1 - over power them, either with progression or ascension(?) as an evil deity. Philosophy power corrupts and they are evil so give themmore, if they play right it will be all over soon. 2 - Wipe them out, them transporting them to inhospital locations, Plane of Vaccuum, void of space ect. Or play knock, knock - who's there? - sphere - sphere who? - sphere of anihilation you're dead.
sin_vraal 12-12-07, 05:54 PM	Maybe a better thing to do, so they can keep playing Well of many worlds to alternate reality, take away all their magic loot, and Enforce ECL (take away their additional levels until they level into them) Let them start over as the new bad boys on the block in a new world, one that you can control better. Then your characters arent unstoppable, and they can still play their favorites. This has worked for our groups in the past. We had some characters in the 40-50 level ranges, and we basically started a spell jammer campaign in the nude, where our new evil nemesis was the partys 42nd level wizard turned lich alter ego in the new world who was hell bent on conquering the multiverse!