Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nilbog 06-03-07, 04:18 PM	How do you think, say, Achilles, Aeneas, Beowulf, or Gilgamesh should look in D&D terms? Here's some from the Odyssey - ODYSSEUS: Human male fighter 12/rogue 10; HD 12d10+48 + 10d6+40; hp 193; Init +7; Spd 30 ft.; AC 25 (+3 Dex, +8 +4 chain shirt, +4 +3 small shield), touch 13, flat-footed 22; BAB/Grp +18/+24; Atk +28 +3 keen longsword (1d8+11/17-20) or +28 +5 composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) (1d8+13/x3); Full Atk +28/+23/+18/+13 +3 keen longsword (1d8+11/17-20) or +28/+23/+18/+13 +5 composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) (1d8+13/x3); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA sneak attack +5d6; SQ evasion, improved uncanny dodge, slippery mind, trapfinding, trap sense +3; SV Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +9; Str 23, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 16 (12 without periapt), Cha 16 (13 without cloak). Skills and Feats: Bluff +23, Climb +30, Craft (weaponsmithing) +27, Intimidate +28, Jump +30, Sense Motive +15, Swim +30. Feats: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Far Shot, Greater Weapon Focus (composite longbow), Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (composite longbow, longsword), Weapon Specialization (composite longbow, longsword). Epic Feat: Great Constitution. Equipment: +4 chain shirt, +3 small shield, periapt of wisdom +4, cloak of charisma +3, +3 keen longsword, +5 composite longbow (+6 Str bonus). Odysseus was a hero famed for both wits and strength. He was also a mighty archer. His feats included inventing the idea of the Trojan Horse, blinding Polyphemus the Cyclops, evading the Sirens, Scylla, and Charybdis, defeating Circe, traveling to the Underworld, and slaying the suitors of his wife Penelope. EURYLOCHUS: Human male Fighter 12; HD 12d10+24; hp 94; Init +4; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (+6 +2 chain shirt, +1 small shield), touch 10, flat-footed 17; BAB/Grp +12/+15; Atk +17 +1 longsword (1d8+6/19-20); Full Atk +17/+12/+7 +1 longsword (1d8+6/19-20); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SV Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +3; Str 16, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 12. Skills and Feats: Climb +13, Jump +13, Swim +13. Feats: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Manyshot, Mobility, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword). Equipment: +1 longsword, +2 chain shirt, small shield. Eurylochus was Odysseus' second-in-command, but a rather cowardly man. He had neither the wits nor the power of his master. It was he who tempted the crew into killing the cattle of Helios, which led to the deaths of all except Odysseus. CIRCE: Human female Wizard 21; HD 21d4+41; hp 95; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 bracers), touch 11, flat-footed 16; BAB/Grp +11/+10; Atk +10 touch or +12 ranged touch (spell); Full Atk +11 touch or +12 ranged touch (spell); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SV Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +13; Str 9, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 19 (17 without headband), Wis 10, Cha 19 (14 without cloak). Skills and Feats: Concentration +25, Decipher Script +28, Knowledge (arcana, history, nature) +28, Spellcraft +28. Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Improved Initiative, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll. Epic Feat: Epic Toughness. Possessions: +7 bracers of armor, headband of intellect +2, cloak of charisma +5, wand of polymorph, staff of transmutation. Spells: As a 21st-level wizard, Circe casts spells. Spells per day:4/5/5/5/5/4/4/3/3/2. Save DC = 14 + spell level. Circe was a mighty witch who enchanted many men, turning them into swine. However, when she met Odysseus, who was unaffected by her spell, she fell immediately in love. They had three children before Odysseus continued his journey. (Yes, Odysseus' ability scores are very high. Before increases for level they would be: 18, 16, 16, 15, 11, 13. Well, he's a hero...)
bluemage55 06-03-07, 07:23 PM	Odyssesus was renowned for his cunning, not his strength. None of his physical attributes should be too far above the norm, but his mental attributes (particulary Int and Cha) should be his highest. He was also an extremely persuasive speaker, and this should be modelled with a high Diplomacy check (which I noticed was completely left out of your build). He should not be anywhere near capable of standing toe-to-toe with the other heroes of his time, but would instead win with strategy. I'd put him as a duelist rather fighter/rogue. His bow also does not need to require superhuman strength to string. It required not brute strength, but cunning, for anyone to string the bow, so it could have a lower Str requirement but also a special Int requirement as well. Circe was more likely a DvR 0 Sorceress.
Geraturatu 06-03-07, 07:56 PM	Actually, he was not only extremely smart, but very strong. It was often commented on how strong he was.
bluemage55 06-03-07, 08:13 PM	Actually, he was not only extremely smart, but very strong. It was often commented on how strong he was. He was strong for a human, but not for a hero. Many if not all of the other great Greek heroes were possessed of far greater physical prowess.
Nilbog 06-03-07, 08:45 PM	No man in Odysseus' hall (any of the suitors) could even bend the bow visibly, while Odysseus strung it effortlessly. At least one of the suitors, Antinous, is described as a strong man. He his son Telemachus, and two servants then kill 100 men easily. I don't see Str 23 being that high by Greek hero standards - these people do not fall on the ordinary human scale. They are the sort who deal with gods and fight great monsters. You are quite correct that he was not the strongest Greek hero, but that's still incredibly strong by normal standards. Anyway, when I do more Greek heroes, he won't be the strongest by a long shot; in fact, he is one of the weakest of the "main characters", both in level and Strength score. As for his intelligence; yes, he was smart, but he made a lot of bad decisions. The Odyssey describes the "folly of [his] glorying spirit", when he did stupid things to show off. Also, Int 15 is supposedly in real-world terms IQ 150, genius level, and very high for a non-wizard. (Circe is only Int 19 so she can cast 9th-level spells as an epic wizard.) Here's my general plan: Odysseus: Ftr12/Rog10 - Eurylochus: Ftr12 - Circe: Wiz21 - Calypso: not yet decided, possibly some sort of fey with sorcerer or druid levels? - Telemachus: Ftr11 Diomedes: Ftr15/Duelist(?) 10 Hector: Ftr22 Achilles: Ftr25/Leg. Dreadnought 3 Patroclus: Pal16 Protesilaus: Ftr5
bluemage55 06-03-07, 09:06 PM	No man in Odysseus' hall (any of the suitors) could even bend the bow visibly, while Odysseus strung it effortlessly. At least one of the suitors, Antinous, is described as a strong man. As I said, the bow requires cunning and strength, not brute force. He his son Telemachus, and two servants then kill 100 men easily. Which a 20th-level character could do with 1 Str if needed. I don't see Str 23 being that high by Greek hero standards - these people do not fall on the ordinary human scale. They are the sort who deal with gods and fight great monsters. My point is that Odysseus is strong, but not inhumanly so. The feats he has accomplished demonstrate not his strength, but his wits. As for his intelligence; yes, he was smart, but he made a lot of bad decisions. The Odyssey describes the "folly of [his] glorying spirit", when he did stupid things to show off. Also, Int 15 is supposedly in real-world terms IQ 150, genius level, and very high for a non-wizard. (Circe is only Int 19 so she can cast 9th-level spells as an epic wizard.) Int 15 is not equal to IQ 150. Based on the means (IQ=10, Int=15) and standard deviation (IQ=15, Int=2.7), Int 15 = IQ 126. Int 15 is about as superhuman as Str 15 is. Circe: Wiz21 Why is Circe a wizard and not a sorceress? When does she demonstrate any epic magical abilities? The only thing that sets her apart from the norm is her divine lineage, which is best represented as DvR 0 as the child of a deity and an Oceanid.
Grandmaster_Kane 06-03-07, 09:42 PM	Achilles- 30 fighter/5 Leg. Dreadnought Beowulf- 12 Ranger/8 Barbarian/ 15 fighter Odyssues- 22 fighter/15 Rouge Castor- 22 Ex-monk/5 Barbarian Pollux- 5 Reaping mauler/ 20 Ex-Monk/ 3 Barbarian Jason- 12 Deulist/8 Swashsbuckler/4 bard/6 Rogue Autolycus- 28 Rouge/ 5 Perfect Wright Bellerophon- 23 Paladin/12 Fighter I could keeps going but there are alot in greek myths Int 15 is not equal to IQ 150. Based on the means (IQ=10, Int=15) and standard deviation (IQ=15, Int=2.7), Int 15 = IQ 126. Int 15 is about as superhuman as Str 15 is. 126 IQ is hardle superhuman I have a IQ of 135 and im only 16 but that score is outdated since it was done in 7th grade but that is not my point. Genuis level doesnt start until the 140's I belive it was 147 but i have to check. Considering the average IQ is about 100 it certainly does seem amazingly high but it isnt. The fact is we arent that smart. Your just stupid. Wait a tick.... I just looked up 15 str and that is pretty weak. This could indicate that you using /sarcasm. To make it easier on the "common folk" mage could you just be a regular person and do /sarcasm
bluemage55 06-03-07, 10:37 PM	126 IQ is hardle superhuman I have a IQ of 135 and im only 16 but that score is outdated since it was done in 7th grade but that is not my point. Genuis level doesnt start until the 140's I belive it was 147 but i have to check. Considering the average IQ is about 100 it certainly does seem amazingly high but it isnt. The fact is we arent that smart. Your just stupid. Wait a tick.... I just looked up 15 str and that is pretty weak. This could indicate that you using /sarcasm. To make it easier on the "common folk" mage could you just be a regular person and do /sarcasm It was sarcasm. Ability scores of 15 are a bit above average but not amazing. And thanks for suggesting that I am stupid. Since the Mensa test that I took reported an IQ of 168, if I am "just stupid", then you are barely self-aware.
pyro_cat 06-03-07, 10:39 PM	126 IQ is hardle superhuman I have a IQ of 135 and im only 16 but that score is outdated since it was done in 7th grade but that is not my point. Genuis level doesnt start until the 140's I belive it was 147 but i have to check. Considering the average IQ is about 100 it certainly does seem amazingly high but it isnt. The fact is we arent that smart. Your just stupid. Wait a tick.... I just looked up 15 str and that is pretty weak. This could indicate that you using /sarcasm. To make it easier on the "common folk" mage could you just be a regular person and do /sarcasm Did they test your spelling abilities when they got that score of 135? :P Just for reference, IQ scores are age-adjusted, and will rarely shift more than 4 or 5 points throughout one's life.
bluemage55 06-03-07, 10:42 PM	Did they test your spelling abilities when they got that score of 135? :P Obviously not, but I question the validity of the entire test if he got a 135.
pyro_cat 06-03-07, 10:46 PM	Sorry, that was a joke. I've taken IQ tests, I know the deal, don't worry. P.S. what's it like being smarter than 99.999% of people on the planet? Will you help me with my homework? Also, are you a MENSA member (if you don't mind me asking)? That group has always seemed interesting.
bluemage55 06-03-07, 11:39 PM	P.S. what's it like being smarter than 99.999% of people on the planet? Will you help me with my homework? I don't actually feel like a genius. I pick up things faster than others, I test very well relative to the amount of study I put in, and I can recall a decent amount information without actively memorizing. I will not help you with your homework, as I have a sufficiently busy schedule already between school, work, my fraternity, my girlfriend, and putting together my law school application. Also, are you a MENSA member (if you don't mind me asking)? That group has always seemed interesting. I never actually joined; once I found out what the gatherings were like I figured I could better spend my time in other pursuits.
Tequila_Sunrise 06-04-07, 12:56 AM	Ooh, ooh, I'm smart too! My IQ is 376 and I could be in mensa if I wanted, but I have so many better things to do with my time, like posting on internet message boards! ...Sorry, had to jump on the band wagon. I like. Odysseus is my favorite greek hero. He combines heroic skillz plus the cunning and forethought that so many others lack, and to boot his tragic flaw is cockiness...gotta love the cockiness!
superroidrage 06-04-07, 01:24 AM	Well if I'm correct, IQ is like how well you learn stuff, not just how smart you are, but hey I could be wrong. But Int in D&D also seems to be a mix of how well you think on your feet and your knowledge of things, and Odysseus was very clever, I would give him a 15 or 16 in one of my games, probably. Unless I was trying to make him very heroic and then I might bump it up some more. His strength, well he was strong for a human, but he wasn't super man strong, so I think maybe have his strength be in the 14-18 range. Well hope I won't get flamed for anything I just posted, and I also hope that no one found it insulting.
bluemage55 06-04-07, 03:26 AM	Ooh, ooh, I'm smart too! My IQ is 376 and I could be in mensa if I wanted, but I have so many better things to do with my time, like posting on internet message boards! Funny. I guess that makes you 1 in 10^73, ie. the smartest person that ever lived. There is the fact that you would thus be immeasurably intelligent, which would make such a score impossible, but I'm sure that's no reason to doubt you. ;) And my point about not joining has much to do with the fact much of my regional Mensa's gatherings were social functions like meeting for lunch.
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-04-07, 09:20 AM	Dang, Tequila Sunrise. 376. Doesn't that put you on the level of Q or something? On a more serious note, the IQ=Int x 10 is a throwback to 1st and 2nd Ed, when ability scores weren't that high and couldn't be easily increased, and the upper limit was a 25. Definately doesn't apply here. On an even more serious note, Odysseus should have that Legendary Commander PrC (Maybe give him some White Raven maneuvers), and Circe is definately a sorcerer.
Nilbog 06-04-07, 09:53 AM	Odysseus - yes, I'll give him a good Diplomacy check. But I thought the bow thing was that no one else was physically capable of bending it (thus, Strength) not that there was some trick to it (Intelligence)? Circe - yes, she should be a sorcerer, sorry. As for why she's epic - she polymorphed like 60 people at once - wouldn't that require a bunch of metamagic or something? (Maybe I should give her Epic Spellcasting?) Alright, here's more: PROTESILAUS: Human male Paladin 4; AL LG; HD 4d10+3; hp 25; Init +0; Spd 30 ft.; AC 15 (+4 chain shirt, +1 small shield), touch 10, flat-footed 15; BAB/Grp +5/+7; Atk +8 melee longsword (1d8+4/19-20); Full Atk +8/+3 melee longsword (1d8+4/19-20); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA smite evil, spells, turn undead; SQ aura of courage, aura of good, divine grace, divine health; SV Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1; Str 15, Dex 9, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13. Skills and Feats: Jump +10, Swim +10. Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword). Equipment: longsword, chain shirt, small shield, potion of haste. Smite Evil (Su): Protesilaus's smite evil has a +1 bonus to his attack roll and deals 4 extra points of damage. Lay on Hands (Su): Protesilaus can heal 4 total hit points of damage per day. Spells: Caster level 2nd, DC 11 + spell level. Spells per day: 1. Husband of Laodamia, Protesilaus was the first man to fall at Troy. He had heard the prophecy that the first man ashore would be the first to die, and bravely leapt ashore. He was quickly slain. TELEMACHUS: Human male Fighter 11; HD 11d10+22; hp 86; Init +4; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (-1 Dex, +6 +2 chain shirt, +2 +1 small shield), touch 9, flat-footed 17; BAB/Grp +11/+12; Atk +14 melee +1 longsword (1d8+4/19-20); Full Atk +14/+9/+4 melee +1 longsword (1d8+4/19-20); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SV Fort +10, Ref +2, Will +3; Str 12, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 14. Skills and Feats: Diplomacy +8, Jump +12, Swim +12. Feats: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword). Equipment: +1 longsword, +2 chain shirt, small shield.
Witch 06-04-07, 09:54 AM	IQ cannot be reliably tested at that level. And in general, I doubt anyone who claims an IQ on the internet - MENSA generally excepted if I trust said person, but I still find an IQ of 168 absurd. It comes close to the point where it cannot be tested.
metatheurgist 06-04-07, 10:02 AM	One of the reasons I love the old ADnD Legends and Lore book is that for a lot of the mythologies they also had stats for the heroes. The Arthurian section was always my fave. I was really hoping the new Dieties and Demigods would be the same but alas no. Anyway if you want to do a conversion: Odysseus (Hero) AC:2 Move:12" HP: 83 Attacks:2 Damage: 1-8 Size: M (5'4") Alignment: CG Fighter :13 Thief/Assassin: 9 S: 18 (00) I:18 W:10 D:16 C:17 CH:18 Now I'm going to go away and feel old and nostalgic.
Salernodc 06-04-07, 10:55 AM	Wow...this thread seemed like it had potential until it degenerated into a %^&* measuring contest. If one must brag through posts like this, I humbly recommend that you spend some time looking in the mirror and asking yourself what you're insecure about. Why do you need the approval of faceless strangers? Why isn't your self-confidence coming from a serene place? Why do you have to trumpet your self worth on a D&D post? Do you have unresolved issues with your family of origin that influence your self esteem? Back on topic - when assigning statistics to characters from literature, you're going to get a broad range of replies based on the varied experiences that each reader brought to the various epics or stories. At the end of the day, choose the stats that work for your campaign. I happen to think that Odysseus was an excellent fighter....not on par with Achilles or Hector....physically weaker than Ajax...but maybe as skilled as Ajax, Diomedes, and Aeneas. I could see a few Rogue levels, but not too many. He was also one of the generals/major leaders of a massive Greek force. How about a bunch of levels in Fighter + a few levels in Legendary Leader + a few levels in Rogue? High stats all around...he was gifted and versatile. Cool thread.
Geraturatu 06-04-07, 11:09 AM	Wow...this thread seemed like it had potential until it degenerated into a %^&* measuring contest. If one must brag through posts like this, I humbly recommend that you spend some time looking in the mirror and asking yourself what you're insecure about. Why do you need the approval of faceless strangers? Why isn't your self-confidence coming from a serene place? Why do you have to trumpet your self worth on a D&D post? Do you have unresolved issues with your family of origin that influence your self esteem? Good lord that's awful assumptious of you. You know, we were posting on here to help answer this guy's question to the best of our abilities. So far, I have not seen a single person post anything that would suggest anything about not having self esteem. Sorry if I seem to fuss at you about this, but it is getting rather anoying to hear and read all these people say things like that to people who really really have not done anything to suggest this. Any who's, I was going to ask if you (addressing the person who started this thread) the whole greek world of belief, or if you're just using Odysseus and his adventures. If it's the whole thing, then use the dieties from Dieties and Demi-Gods and work you're way down from there. I believe they also have Circe in there, but I'm not sure exactly.
Salernodc 06-04-07, 11:39 AM	[QUOTE=Geraturatu;12603215]Good lord that's awful assumptious of you. You know, we were posting on here to help answer this guy's question to the best of our abilities. So far, I have not seen a single person post anything that would suggest anything about not having self esteem. Sorry if I seem to fuss at you about this, but it is getting rather anoying to hear and read all these people say things like that to people who really really have not done anything to suggest this. [QUOTE] I was not critiquing everyone. Only those that let a normal thread degenerate into bombastic comments about their IQs...which has nothing to do with the intent of this thread. Nilbog may correct me if I'm wrong. I was not even referring to you Geraturatu...your post was benign.
Geraturatu 06-04-07, 11:46 AM	Did the IQ stuff really seem that way? Didn't seem so to me anyways. I didn't think anyone here was being that way. Oh yes, and what are you going to do for the whirlpool lady and the monster that snatches people from the boat?
Salernodc 06-04-07, 11:49 AM	Whirlpool Lady = Scylla Boat eating monster = Charybdis
Geraturatu 06-04-07, 11:56 AM	I've never been good at remembering those two names.
Tequila_Sunrise 06-04-07, 02:12 PM	Personally, any debate about what stats/abilities/classes that a non-D&D related character should have is just silly. There are a dozen different ways to stat out each of these legendary characters, none of them more valid than the others. This thread has already begun to devolve into into petty debates, as did the thread about how to build Riddick, with posters bickering about if he should be a straight rogue or a rogue/monk, as if character creation is some kind of science that can be theorized and proven. I myself always imagined that Odysseus' bow had some kind of trick built into it so that if you don't know the trick, you can't string it. But that's an interpretation; the bow could have just been really friggin' tough, so that of those who tried Odysseus was the only one strong enough to string it. After all, none of the other greek heroes are ever noted as trying to string it so it is perfectly acceptable to assume that all the suitors and the son were simply 'lesser mortals' and so didn't have the brute strength for the bow. And I personally think that some of the characters should have their own alternative classes. Beowulf for example should use some kind of monk variant that sacrifices all those diddly abilities and focuses on unarmed combat. But that's just my opinion, not fact.
SokenzanMarauder 06-04-07, 02:22 PM	I think someone should stat up Ajax, he's my favorite of all the Greek heroes. :P -Gene
Grandmaster_Kane 06-04-07, 02:35 PM	It was sarcasm. Ability scores of 15 are a bit above average but not amazing. And thanks for suggesting that I am stupid. Since the Mensa test that I took reported an IQ of 168, if I am "just stupid", then you are barely self-aware. I didnt suggest that you personally are stupid I simply stated my feelings toward the average person. Ergo If you are average im talking to you. Good job recognizing the difference./sarcasm <---- See is that hard? And on a side note I suck at spelling, a fact at which you are obviously aware. lol, but dont get me started on math im freaky good with numbers. (I scare myself) IQ cannot be reliably tested at that level. And in general, I doubt anyone who claims an IQ on the internet - MENSA generally excepted if I trust said person, but I still find an IQ of 168 absurd. It comes close to the point where it cannot be tested. You think that is absurd that is nothing. My cousin who is 19 just joined the giga society. The req Iq is 190 to join and i believe he is just above that like around the 195-197. I was so jealous.
katarl 06-04-07, 02:45 PM	If you haven't been alone in a room with a qualified examiner, doing an approved paper based test, then you *don't* know your IQ. I've seen far too many people claim to be of genius level intellect, then fail their math exams because they don't know what an integer is. Internet IQ exams should be seen for what they are, a novelty, not a gauge of mental acuity. It gives people the false sense that they are actually smarter than they are. I found this in a rather unfortunate case, where a boy, about 15, took several of these tests and declared himself to be IQ 168, and when his teachers consistently graded him poorly, he receded into himself, becoming *too good* for his school and his small-minded teachers. He quickly became a delinquent with a group of cronies, and terrorised the school, and was predictably thrown out, and the story ends there. He was smart, but not smart enough to do no work and succeed. *** When you talk about autolycus, i believe you're talking about the rogue from Hercules the Legendary Journeys. Autolycus in the Odyssey was the uncle of the men that Odysseus went hunting with when he got the scar on his ankle. Not a master thief. He was incidently, my favourite character in said series. I do think Circe should be a sorceress, since thats what she's described as (doesn't have a spellbook either). If circumspect is a feat, then Penelope should definitely have that. Achilles' invulnerability seemed more of a ritual/artefact thing rather than simply hitpoints, so possibly straight fighter might be more suitable? Also, i'm taking classics, and I don't know who ajax is. So i don't fail, please would someone tell me? I recognise the others.
bluemage55 06-04-07, 05:01 PM	Odysseus - yes, I'll give him a good Diplomacy check. But I thought the bow thing was that no one else was physically capable of bending it (thus, Strength) not that there was some trick to it (Intelligence)? Rather than digging it up myself, I'll just refer to wikipedia. Still in his disguise, Odysseus went to Penelope and told her that he had met Odysseus and that he had said that whoever could string Odysseus' bow and shoot an arrow through twelve axe-heads in a row would be able to marry Penelope. This was to Odysseus' advantage, as only he could string his own bow. (It is believed that Odysseus' bow was a composite bow, requiring great skill and leverage to string, rather than mere brute strength.) As for why she's epic - she polymorphed like 60 people at once - wouldn't that require a bunch of metamagic or something? (Maybe I should give her Epic Spellcasting?) She used a wand, actually.
Geraturatu 06-04-07, 05:16 PM	She used a wand, actually. Actually, it was her Honey that she enchanted to turn them into animals. She did that, not a wand. Because remember, she had everyone drink her honeyed wine. Then Oddysseus ate some poison grass to counter effect the drink, that Hermes gave him. When Oddysseus did not turn into an animal, she asked one of the people working for her if they had put the honey into the drink.
Nilbog 06-04-07, 05:21 PM	Whirlpool Lady = Scylla Boat eating monster = Charybdis Sorry, but Charybdis is a ship-swallowing whirlpool; Scylla is the six-headed monster who snatches six men from every passing ship.
Nilbog 06-04-07, 05:22 PM	I always thought Circe's "wand" was more a symbol than the source of her power. As for the bow: I've never heard that interpretation before. He then took foremost up the shaft and bow, And, station’d at the portal, strove to bend But bent it not, fatiguing, first, his hands Delicate and uncustom’d to the toil. <snip> next, he brought a cake Ample and round of suet from within, With which they chafed the bow, then tried again To bend, but bent it not; superior strength To theirs that task required. Yet two, the rest In force surpassing, made no trial yet, Antinoüs and Eurymachus the brave. That sure sounds like strength to me.
bluemage55 06-04-07, 06:45 PM	Actually, it was her Honey that she enchanted to turn them into animals. She did that, not a wand. Because remember, she had everyone drink her honeyed wine. Then Oddysseus ate some poison grass to counter effect the drink, that Hermes gave him. When Oddysseus did not turn into an animal, she asked one of the people working for her if they had put the honey into the drink. My apologies, they drank from wine that had a potion added to it, and thereafter she use the wand to transform them (triggering the effect of the potion). If anything, this just means she brewed a bunch of potions with a unique variation of the polymorph spell that requires a wand to activate.
haelduksf 06-05-07, 12:48 AM	Ajax, at least, is pretty easy- LG fighter, lots of strength, powerful build, decent charisma, improved grapple, monkey grip, weapon focus chain: greataxe. Tada!
Nilbog 06-05-07, 12:30 PM	New stats for Circe: CIRCE: Human female Sorcerer 21; AL N; HD 21d4+42; hp 96; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 bracers), touch 11, flat-footed 16; BAB/Grp +11/+10; Atk +10 touch or +12 ranged touch (spell); Full Atk +11 touch or +12 ranged touch (spell); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SV Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +13; Str 9, Dex 12, Con 15 (12 without amulet), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 22 (17 without cloak). Skills and Feats: Concentration +25, Decipher Script +28, Knowledge (arcana, history, nature) +28, Spellcraft +28. Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Improved Initiative, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll. Epic Feat: Epic Spellcasting. Possessions: +7 bracers of armor, amulet of health +3, cloak of charisma +5, wand of polymorph, staff of transmutation. Spells: As a 21st-level sorcerer, Circe casts spells. Spells per day:6/7/7/7/7/7/7/6/6/6, spells known 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3. Save DC = 16 + spell level. Circe was a mighty sorceress who enchanted many men, turning them into swine. However, when she met Odysseus, who was unaffected by her spell, she fell immediately in love. They had three children before Odysseus continued his journey. Her favored Epic Spell: Swine Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 17 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 300 ft. Area: 20-ft.-radius hemisphere Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 153,000 gp; 4 days; 6,120 XP. Seed: transform (DC 21). Factors: change target to area of 40-ft. cone (+10 DC), increase to 80-ft. cone (+4 DC). Mitigating factors: 10-minute casting time (-18 DC). This epic spell turns all Medium or smaller creatures in the area into piglets. The transformed creatures retain their mental faculties, including personality, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not supernatural abilities. They assume the physical characteristics of piglets, including natural size and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. (Use the statistics for the dog.) All the creatures’ equipment drops to the ground upon transformation. (The long casting time reflects that they ate a meal while she cast the spell. Maybe the honey was a material component or something. ) And more: CALYPSO: Nymph druid 5; AL CN; HD 6d6+6 + 5d8+5; hp 52; Init +3; Spd 30 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC 18 (+3 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 18, flat-footed 15; BaB/Grp +6/+6 ; Atk dagger +10melee (1d4); Full Atk dagger +10/+5 melee (1d4); Sp/R 5 ft./5 ft.; SA blinding beauty, spells, spell-like abilities, stunning glance; SQ animal companion, DR 10/cold iron, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure, trackless step, unearthly grace, wild empathy, wild shape, woodland stride; SV Fort +12, Ref +14, Will +17; Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 20. Skills and Feats: Concentration +15, Diplomacy +11, Escape Artist +12, Handle Animal +18, Heal +17, Hide +12, Listen +19, Move Silently +12, Ride +5, Sense Motive +12, Spot +19, Swim +13, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings). Feats: Alertness, Combat Casting, Dodge, Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Finesse Blinding Beauty (Su): Fort DC 20. Spell-like Abilities: 1/day—dimension door. Caster level 7th. Spells: Calypso casts spells as a 12th-level druid. Stunning Glance (Su): Fort DC 20. Animal Companion: Leopard. Unearthly Grace (Su): Calypso adds her Charisma modifier of +5 as a bonus on all her saving throws, and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class. (The statistics block already reflects these bonuses). Wild Empathy (Ex): Calypso has a +6 racial bonus on the check. Wild Shape (Su): Small or Medium animal, maximum duration 5 hours.
bluemage55 06-05-07, 04:21 PM	The long casting time reflects that they ate a meal while she cast the spell. Maybe the honey was a material component or something. Or maybe the honey was a potion. You're making her unnecessarily powerful when her accomplishments can be represented with far lower stats. Circe could easily be represented as a DvR 0 Oceanid Sorcerer 6.
Kihon 06-05-07, 04:44 PM	In the Myth classes I took at college it would seem to me that She was definitely an Epic Spellcaster... and the Bow required great strength to string - in an effort to keep the post short, and on topic. The IQ stuff belongs somewhere else (imho).
bluemage55 06-05-07, 05:28 PM	In the Myth classes I took at college it would seem to me that She was definitely an Epic Spellcaster... and the Bow required great strength to string - in an effort to keep the post short, and on topic. Are you going to back up your statments with any reasoning or citations?
Geraturatu 06-05-07, 06:03 PM	She shouldn't have to.
fnord 06-06-07, 07:15 AM	She used a wand, actually. :eek: Dear Zeus, she's an ARTIFICER! Whirlpool Lady = Scylla Boat eating monster = Charybdis No, you have it backwards. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charybdis]Charybdis[/QUOTE].
Johnny_Angel 06-06-07, 07:27 AM	There's no doubt that Odyseus was strong compared to the average person, but I'm under the impression -as others are- that his bow required a special trick to string that only he knew. I seem to recall that there was a certain method to stringing the bow, but it's been quite a while since I've read Greek mythology. He was generally known more for his cunning than his physical prowess. I'm not saying he was weak by any means; just that he was known more for his mind than for his body. Ajax would probably be one of the strongest of the heroes. I think Beowulf actually was stated out with D&D stats at one point, but he wasn't statted as an epic character. I'm not quite sure what his epic stats would be, but he'd have to be pretty high level in just about everything for some of the myths about him to be accurately represented.
Tequila_Sunrise 06-06-07, 01:58 PM	Are you going to back up your statments with any reasoning or citations? D&D is not a science and therefore does not require theses, facts or arguments. If you're interested in reasoning and citations, join mensa. Circe can be statted as 6th level or 66th level. No more basis for either choice is necessary than 'because this is how I imagine her.'
bluemage55 06-06-07, 04:49 PM	D&D is not a science and therefore does not require theses, facts or arguments. If you're interested in reasoning and citations, join mensa. Contrary to your beliefs, logical reasoning is necessary for any form of communication. Otherwise, all communication is reduced to "The sky is pink . . . because I said so. I don't need a reason," at which point any form of understanding breaks down. Circe can be statted as 6th level or 66th level. No more basis for either choice is necessary than 'because this is how I imagine her.' The OP expressed an interest in modelling the Greek heroes according to how they were presented in myth, not just according to anyone's own random imaginations. You could believe that Circe is actually a 1st-level fighter, but that doesn't mean it would make sense from a mythological perspective.
Nilbog 06-06-07, 07:32 PM	OK, can we please ratchet down the arguments a bit? Perhaps it would help if I stated the following: - I plan to give characters from Greek mythology very high power levels relative to ordinary D&D characters, both to reflect the 'mythic' nature of the setting and to reflect that these characters are some of the best in existence at their time. - Characters from 'earlier' periods of mythic history will be more powerful, fitting with the Greek idea of the declining ages of man (Golden, Silver, Brass, and Iron, with the Heroic Age either equated with the Age of Brass or wedged in between Brass and Iron). Another chronology for Greek mythology put the 'creation' period as ending with the Titanomachy, and the Heroic Age as extending from then to the Trojan War. Non-divine characters will be capped at 25th level in Trojan War and later periods, 30th level earlier. Achilles will be the most powerful later hero, and Hercules (as a mortal) the most powerful early hero. - Those described as minor deities in Greek myth need not be divine in D&D terms. Nymphs, satyrs, etc. were all defined as minor deities. Generally, D&D Fey and Outsiders would be considered minor deities in Greek terms. - There are of course many possible D&D interpretations of these characters. I am simply giving a personal take, informed by the above principles.
bluemage55 06-06-07, 07:41 PM	- Those described as minor deities in Greek myth need not be divine in D&D terms. Nymphs, satyrs, etc. were all defined as minor deities. Generally, D&D Fey and Outsiders would be considered minor deities in Greek terms. Circe in particular, however, was the daughter of a deity and a nymph, which would suggest DvR 0 as is generally the case with the offspring between a divine parent and a mortal parent.
Nilbog 06-07-07, 06:30 PM	That is true. OK: Another version of Circe: CIRCE: DvR 0 Nymph sorcerer 8; AL CN; HD 6d6+6 + 8d4+8; hp 82; Init +3; Spd 60 ft., swim 60 ft.; AC 18 (+3 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 18, flat-footed 15; BaB/Grp +6/+6 ; Atk dagger +10melee (1d4); Full Atk dagger +10/+5 melee (1d4); Sp/R 5 ft./5 ft.; SA blinding beauty, spells, spell-like abilities, stunning glance; SQ DR 10/cold iron, immortality, low-light vision, nature sense, unearthly grace, wild empathy; SV Fort +10, Ref +15, Will +19; Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 20. Skills and Feats: Bluff +16, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +6, Escape Artist +12, Handle Animal +13, Heal +12, Hide +12, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Listen +10, Move Silently +12, Ride +5, Sense Motive +12, Spellcraft +14, Spot +10, Swim +12, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings) Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Dodge, Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Finesse Blinding Beauty (Su): Fort DC 22. Spell-like Abilities: 1/day—dimension door. Caster level 7th. Spells: Circe casts arcane spells as an 8th-level sorcerer and divine spells as a 7th-level druid. Sorcerer: Spells per day 6/6/6/5/3; spells known 8/5/3/2/1, save DC 15 + spell level. Druid: Spells per day 6/5/4/3/1, save DC 13 + spell level. Stunning Glance (Su): Fort DC 22. Unearthly Grace (Su): Circe adds her Charisma modifier of +5 as a bonus on all her saving throws, and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class. (The statistics block already reflects these bonuses). Wild Empathy (Ex): Circe has a +6 racial bonus on the check.
bluemage55 06-07-07, 08:59 PM	She could probably use Brew Potion or Craft Wondrous Item for the enchanted honey. Craft Wand is a possibility as well.
GAMBLE_d13 06-08-07, 03:01 AM	Just another voice on the Odyseus discussion, not only was he known as being ver cunning, but as cunning and smart as Zeus himself. Its been along time since I read the Iliad, but the description of Odyseus being smarter than virtually every mortal and god really stands out to me. In other words an Int of 15 is absurdly low, he Deserves an 18 base, with most of his Level bonuses being added. Also, I'm not sure how you guys feel about this, but would the Paragon template be out of the question for some of the more 'god-like' heroes? Last but not least, Achilles is in need of some Barbarian levels, and Lots of them... lest we forget the opening lines of the Iliad?
bluemage55 06-08-07, 03:55 AM	Also, I'm not sure how you guys feel about this, but would the Paragon template be out of the question for some of the more 'god-like' heroes? I think it would be out of place. Very high levels represents most of them better than being paragons, which would imply that they are some sort of prime creature or advanced evolution, which they are not. Some heroes in particular would have other special bonuses (Achilles, for example, would get some sort of special ability that makes it impossible to hurt him unless you aim for the tiny spot that is his ankle), but nothing resembling the paragon template.
GAMBLE_d13 06-08-07, 10:38 PM	I suppose you are right, though some of the abillities that the eroes posses are rather outstanding. Achilles for exampled was very fast, and as mentioned, invulnerable to attack, (Though I would rule this as Regeneration 1/- and Damage reduction 5/- because he is cut from time to time*) *I may be mistaken about this, but I seem to remember him sporting several wounds, though none of them could kill him. Cheers.
Mindforge 06-09-07, 01:45 AM	Someone commented earlier about Beowulf with 12 levels of Ranger... what?!? Ok. Beowulf is solid fighter all the way. I would like to add the fact that he should be very versed in hand to hand and grappling. He defeats Grendel in his first fight by taking him on hand to hand and grappling with him - then, ripping his arm off along with his shoulder. He should be extremely powerful and also have a high IQ in order to have a lot of the special feats like Improved Trip, etc... don't forget Monkey Grip for when he grabs the huge greatsword off the wall in the Mother's cave and lops her head off.
fnord 06-09-07, 09:01 AM	Someone commented earlier about Beowulf with 12 levels of Ranger... what?!? He tracks down Grendel's Mother. Plus, a bit of favored enemy: monstrous humanoid (that's what Grendel would be, right?) would be helpful.
SokenzanMarauder 06-09-07, 01:21 PM	He tracks down Grendel's Mother. Plus, a bit of favored enemy: monstrous humanoid (that's what Grendel would be, right?) would be helpful. Not to mention a pretty immense strength score, gotta be strong to rip that suckers arm off. -Gene
Nilbog 06-10-07, 02:47 PM	She could probably use Brew Potion or Craft Wondrous Item for the enchanted honey. Craft Wand is a possibility as well. I replaced Alertness with Brew Potion.
Nilbog 06-10-07, 02:54 PM	Achilles will have the Damage Reduction feat, possibly several times, and Armor Skin. Next up is probably Diomedes and a revised Odysseus.
Nilbog 06-10-07, 02:56 PM	Here is Odysseus, with Int 19. ODYSSEUS: Human male fighter 12/rogue 10; HD 12d10+48 + 10d6+40; hp 193; Init +7; Spd 30 ft.; AC 25 (+3 Dex, +8 +4 chain shirt, +4 +3 small shield), touch 13, flat-footed 22; BAB/Grp +18/+24; Atk +28 +3 keen longsword (1d8+11/17-20) or +28 +5 composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) (1d8+13/x3); Full Atk +28/+23/+18/+13 +3 keen longsword (1d8+11/17-20) or +28/+23/+18/+13 +5 composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) (1d8+13/x3); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA sneak attack +5d6; SQ evasion, improved uncanny dodge, slippery mind, trapfinding, trap sense +3; SV Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +9; Str 23, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 19, Wis 16 (12 without periapt), Cha 16 (13 without cloak). Skills and Feats: Bluff +23, Climb +30, Craft (armorsmithing, weaponsmithing) +27, Diplomacy +23, Intimidate +28, Jump +30, Sense Motive +15, Swim +30. Feats: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Far Shot, Greater Weapon Focus (composite longbow), Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (composite longbow, longsword), Weapon Specialization (composite longbow, longsword). Epic Feat: Great Constitution. Equipment: +4 chain shirt, +3 small shield, periapt of wisdom +4, cloak of charisma +3, +3 keen longsword, +5 composite longbow (+6 Str bonus). Odysseus was a hero famed for both wits and strength. He was also a mighty archer. His feats included inventing the idea of the Trojan Horse, blinding Polyphemus the Cyclops, evading the Sirens, Scylla, and Charybdis, defeating Circe, traveling to the Underworld, and slaying the suitors of his wife Penelope.
yellowdingo 06-10-07, 09:32 PM	You think that is absurd that is nothing. My cousin who is 19 just joined the giga society. The req Iq is 190 to join and i believe he is just above that like around the 195-197. I was so jealous. I scored IQ214+ (the test topped out) and am the only person on the planet who realizes that stringtheory invalidates evolution and religion...Boy do I feel alone. I dare you to tell me the earth is flat. Is this open to purely greek Epic Heroes or is it open to some of the great heroes of other cultures? I got an Australian Aboriginal named Nemarluk whose warband stealthed up on a bunch of police hunting them, waited until late at night and over great and impressive distance threw in heavy bamboo poles as spears (2.5-3 inch diameter stuff weighing 30-50 lb) to scare them. then proceeded to run without stopping a distance of a hundred miles in just over a day. Their average height is somewhere between 6' and 7' tall and considering the other tribes averaged 5'-6' in height they were the toughest and most skilled warriors of their time. Perhaps the last time a tale of their adventures was ever heard. There are stories of assassination attempts on him by elders employing assassins (Kadiatcha killers who wear emu feather boots to confuse tracks and using a blown poison dust made from termite mound chewings-effectivly like a fine glass it destroys the victims lungs), Canoing across two hundred miles of open sea including a raid on the island of Timor which is a hundred KM from Australia. This guy and his warband were tough-epic hero tough.
Nilbog 06-11-07, 07:25 PM	This is open to everything, though I will probably only do Greek and Roman (since I know them well, and Beowulf was done in Dragon magazine).
Thegans 06-21-07, 12:58 AM	Did the IQ stuff really seem that way? Didn't seem so to me anyways. I didn't think anyone here was being that way. Oh yes, and what are you going to do for the whirlpool lady and the monster that snatches people from the boat? Whirlpool Lady = Scylla Boat eating monster = Charybdis Sorry, but Charybdis is a ship-swallowing whirlpool; Scylla is the six-headed monster who snatches six men from every passing ship. Yes I know I did not have to quote all three posts but it makes the reply easier. I don't know for certain about Charybdis since that seems better as a trap. As for Scylla I would recomend taking a hydra giving it the water subtype, and possibly increase its size, give it some feats that help grappling, and maybe change its fast healing to regeneration. Since technically Scylla is basically a swiming hydra thats good at grabbing things with its head.
Lord Zeb 06-21-07, 02:29 PM	One of the reasons I love the old ADnD Legends and Lore book is that for a lot of the mythologies they also had stats for the heroes. The Arthurian section was always my fave. I was really hoping the new Dieties and Demigods would be the same but alas no. Anyway if you want to do a conversion: Odysseus (Hero) AC:2 Move:12" HP: 83 Attacks:2 Damage: 1-8 Size: M (5'4") Alignment: CG Fighter :13 Thief/Assassin: 9 S: 18 (00) I:18 W:10 D:16 C:17 CH:18 Now I'm going to go away and feel old and nostalgic. Now this is what I was thinking the whole time I read the thread as well. :emp: Didn't realize I was getting up there too... I think using the Legends & Lore stats as the base to convert into 3e would be very appropriate. My rough sketch: Warblade 13 / Rogue 9 Before levelling and items: Str 18 Dex 16 Con 17 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 18 After leveling: Str 22 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 18