Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kain Darkwind 07-23-07, 11:58 AM	Ok, I've been perusing various threads and I want all epic fans to think about this. How can WotC produce epic material that will sell? Everyone knows that poor epic rules leads to poor epic support leads to poor epic reception among the bulk of gamers. So my question is, how can WotC execute epic books or material in a manner that will sell, and thus be justified in producing?
archerpwr 07-23-07, 12:25 PM	Ok, I've been perusing various threads and I want all epic fans to think about this. How can WotC produce epic material that will sell? Everyone knows that poor epic rules leads to poor epic support leads to poor epic reception among the bulk of gamers. So my question is, how can WotC execute epic books or material in a manner that will sell, and thus be justified in producing? The first step would be to print a 3.5 book just for epic level instead of getting a page or two in every book.
Witch 07-23-07, 12:32 PM	I disagree almost completely. Such makes Epic a supplement, and hence, it will be ignored later on. Epic should be part of the next core, and not in the limited part it is at the moment. Higher levels should be balanced more properly (particularly spells), and Epic Spellcasting needs a revamp. That's the initial approach I'd take.
archerpwr 07-23-07, 12:36 PM	I disagree almost completely. Such makes Epic a supplement, and hence, it will be ignored later on. Epic should be part of the next core, and not in the limited part it is at the moment. Higher levels should be balanced more properly (particularly spells), and Epic Spellcasting needs a revamp. That's the initial approach I'd take. Ah. 4.0. That is a better idea. I meant for 3.5.
Witch 07-23-07, 12:38 PM	An Expanded Epic Level Handbook would be nice to patch the wounds, yes. However, I'm not really talking about 4.0. I'd be long happy to have that new Epic book be labelled "Core Material" and all subsequent splat books providing material for it.
NinjaPenguin 07-23-07, 12:40 PM	Core Rulebook IV? Yes, that would be nice. Wizards simply needs to be convinced that, if you build it properly, they will come and buy it.
Witch 07-23-07, 12:44 PM	What may also help is a chapter dedicated on the cosmos and epic creatures. For example, clarify how rare epic creatures and epic characters may be in relation to the number of worlds. Point out how epic games may have a non-munchkin style, and actually be very fun to play.
elondir 07-23-07, 04:07 PM	For starters they will need to develop a statistically driven epic model. CRs are out of whack at level 11. For example I just sent an APL 11 party through EL 15, 14, 17, 13, and 8 and they didn't even get scratched. That was using sound tactics and super-powergamed NPCs to counter theirs. Now the party has the NPCs magic items, making them even tougher. When the party is invisble and everybody has evasion, casts glitterdust judiciously, has a +27 grapple check, can move at 70, and one of the players has military training, pretty much everything goes down fast. I was going to hit them with the scorching ray record damage trick during a celerity but the wizard couldn't see the target make a target so he wound up dropping an empowered fireball that damaged nobody despite having 3 PCs in the spread. Then they killed him in two hits (cutting through his stoneskin like butter). I seriously think I could throw CR 23s at them without damaging them significantly. The reason I bring this up is becuase when you extrapolate it to epic, where the game is all celerity/sudden maximized time stop/dazed/finger of death/prismatic spray/disintegrate/cloudkill/wall of force/fly, CRs need to be adjusted big time. Immortals Handbook has taken a stab at it, but it's a hit dice based CR system, and that means it's not accurate either. Once they get the CR system in line with the actual game, epic will get more fans. However, it doens't look like it will get much attention the way things are going. I seriously hope psionics and epic are fully integrated parts of 4.0 core and are fully playtested at least up into the 100s.
archerpwr 07-23-07, 04:26 PM	The reason I bring this up is becuase when you extrapolate it to epic, where the game is all celerity/sudden maximized time stop/dazed/finger of death/prismatic spray/disintegrate/cloudkill/wall of force/fly, CRs need to be adjusted big time. With just a little player restraint (notably not using celerity) such nova bombs are avoided and the game is more fun. I have full casting now at level 27 with my gish, but I refuse to use celerity novas (although if I'm about to die I will use that one I prepared to teleport out of there). Just a little cooperation is needed to keep the game fun.
NinjaPenguin 07-23-07, 05:08 PM	I've always said pretty much the same thing. High level and epic, more than any other time in the game, requires DM/PC cooperation rather than confrontation. The whole group has to work together to make the game fun, not simply try to munch out as much as possible to annihilate everything in one round while the DM pulls out all the stops to try and slaughter them.
rob_douglas 07-23-07, 11:00 PM	The reason I bring this up is becuase when you extrapolate it to epic, where the game is all celerity/sudden maximized time stop/dazed/finger of death/prismatic spray/disintegrate/cloudkill/wall of force/fly, CRs need to be adjusted big time. I think you need to learn how Time Stop works. Daze, FoD, and Pris Spray do nothing during Time Stop. If you don't like this trick, send a few Astral Projected attackers against them 3 or 4 times, to draw out all their Suddens. The big problem with novas is that you can't do them too many times a day. If the DM doesn't take advantage of that, then the players are not seeing the downside of their actions. Take your wizard example - he wasn't using any Blur, Displacement, Mirror images? He got full attacked by everyone? Had no Contingenies? No Arcane Sight to see the invisibles? No minions? No Magic Jar to get a different body to use for awhile? The DM does have to do a lot of work to counter optimized PCs, but it should be doable with even much lower CR creatures. Don't forget about traps, including Unhallows that cast Dispel Magic, Dispelling screens, etc. ROB
runestar 07-23-07, 11:58 PM	But shouldn't epic be really high-powered, to make it stand out more and more distinctive? I mean, for all the fuss surrounding it, it has to have more "oomph" than just having PCs lv up to 21 and selecting an epic feat. Else, it really isn't any more significant than say, your PCs lv'ing up from 19 to 20. I think that there is still promise for epic material catering to gameplay from lv21-30. Past that, I really don't know...
Jungingen 07-24-07, 01:37 AM	But shouldn't epic be really high-powered, to make it stand out more and more distinctive? I mean, for all the fuss surrounding it, it has to have more "oomph" than just having PCs lv up to 21 and selecting an epic feat. Else, it really isn't any more significant than say, your PCs lv'ing up from 19 to 20. I think that there is still promise for epic material catering to gameplay from lv21-30. Past that, I really don't know... I'm not convinced that Epic levels should be completely distinctive and grossly more powerful. That's a nice enough concept at 21st level, and everybody wants to feel special, but when you alter the power curves that got you through 1-20, things get a little odd. I would love to see Epic rules that took a much more wholistic scaling approach rather than trying to reinvent the wheel simply because everybody feels cooler doing it. It's a crying shame that Epic is considered almost exclusively the domain of powergaming munchkins, and doubly so when powergaming munchkins completely destroy the entire system. If the system is so strange and imbalanced that you have to deliberately avoid many, many options which would trivialize combat, then the system sucks. Victory shouldn't automatically go to whomever wins initiative. Maintaining a DM–PCs entente is great if it works for your group, but you're lucky if it does. How would I change things and make it better? I haven't the slightest clue. But Epic is a neat idea and it deserves a better implementation than it has had thus far. In a lot of ways I really resent the idea of 4.0, but that's probably all that could be done to resolve these concerns.
Archtyrant Terevoth 07-24-07, 12:30 PM	Ok, I've been perusing various threads and I want all epic fans to think about this. How can WotC produce epic material that will sell? Everyone knows that poor epic rules leads to poor epic support leads to poor epic reception among the bulk of gamers. So my question is, how can WotC execute epic books or material in a manner that will sell, and thus be justified in producing? First, WotC needs core rules that actually work. Before you can go expanding past 20th level, 20th level needs to be balanced. Right now we just have too many overpowered abilities at 20th level, like gate, shapechange, etc. 9th level spells break the game, and thus we can't even begin to expand on them until they're fixed. Once you can actually play past 16th level without the game falling apart, then people may want to try to play to 30th.
archerpwr 07-24-07, 12:52 PM	First, WotC needs core rules that actually work. Before you can go expanding past 20th level, 20th level needs to be balanced. Right now we just have too many overpowered abilities at 20th level, like gate, shapechange, etc. 9th level spells break the game, and thus we can't even begin to expand on them until they're fixed. Once you can actually play past 16th level without the game falling apart, then people may want to try to play to 30th. Gotta agree. Couple of examples of what shapechange can do: Disintegrate (among others) at will (Beholder). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm That http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend That Endless utility.
Kain Darkwind 07-24-07, 01:50 PM	First, WotC needs core rules that actually work. Before you can go expanding past 20th level, 20th level needs to be balanced. Right now we just have too many overpowered abilities at 20th level, like gate, shapechange, etc. 9th level spells break the game, and thus we can't even begin to expand on them until they're fixed. Once you can actually play past 16th level without the game falling apart, then people may want to try to play to 30th. This is a good theory, and a noble goal, but I have to contest that it isn't going to make epic viable. If what you are saying is correct, people are willing to buy a 1-20th level game that breaks down before the end. 'Broken' problems then are not the cause of epic doing poorly.
elondir 07-24-07, 02:16 PM	I think you need to learn how Time Stop works. Daze, FoD, and Pris Spray do nothing during Time Stop. Don't they all go off at once when the time stop ends? If you don't like this trick, send a few Astral Projected attackers against them 3 or 4 times, to draw out all their Suddens. The big problem with novas is that you can't do them too many times a day. If the DM doesn't take advantage of that, then the players are not seeing the downside of their actions. That's good for when you actually play 4 encounters per day, but when five rounds take 3 hours to play out, multiple fights in one day aren't really feasible. Take your wizard example - he wasn't using any Blur, Displacement, Mirror images? He got full attacked by everyone? Had no Contingenies? No Arcane Sight to see the invisibles? No minions? No Magic Jar to get a different body to use for awhile? Oh I've got a headache dealing with PC glitterdust, grease, arcane eye, and greater invisibility, let alone contingencies and novas. Presently it seems that all my NPCs must have see invisible, blindsight, and freedom of movement active at all times just to survive a single round. The DM does have to do a lot of work to counter optimized PCs, but it should be doable with even much lower CR creatures. Don't forget about traps, including Unhallows that cast Dispel Magic, Dispelling screens, etc. ROB Hmm, that's a good trap idea. I'd set the DC around 40 or 50 just to make the rogue have to roll for a change.
rob_douglas 07-24-07, 04:49 PM	No, they don't go off when time stop ends - they go off in the caster's time steam, and can't affect the target. Any spell with a target other than yourself will fail if you cast it while Time Stopped. Cloudkill/Wall of Force or Forcecage is a better idea, but they are limited by the terrain and size of the opponent for being useful. The Cloudkill has no effect until TS wears off, at which time the target can and should run away if they can't blow it away. Unless of course they are immune to poison, via Heroes' Feast or being a demon. I understand about the time it takes to run combats, but the balance in the system still needs 4 or 5 a day to work. The balancing fact with spellcasters is that their spells are useless when they run out - so they never want to run out. Swords can still kill, all day long. I am still always looking for ways to speed up combat - I write out a couple of rounds worth of NPC actions and contingencies ahead of time, so that at least the bad guys turns aren't that long. I have tried to institute time limits on the PCs - they must announce an action within a minute. Everyone needs to pay attention and have an action planned as you go along. Pre-generating stats for commonly used options (like certain spells you expect to be on, or actions you might take like power attack) are useful. There was an article on wizards called the Dungeon Delve that showed how to put 20th level stat blocks on 1 page for a bunch of characters. Very useful for running fast combat. Take a look at this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060929a DM control of player spells and equipment is crucial. You might want to remove equipment from that game that you find interferes with it. And you have to make sure they are not blowing through the wealth guidelines. If they are, add taxes, thieves, and lost/destroyed/sundered items to remove a few things from the campaign. I once gave out a Ring of Spell Turning when I shouldn't have. Well, the party also had a Crystal Hypnosis Ball, cursed item, that worked like normal, but the being on the other end would extract information from the user. When he (a powerful lich) found out about the ring, he told the ball user that it was evil and should be destoyed. She in turn told the party paladin, who then asked to "borrow" the ring and destroyed it. She had assumed the first PC had detected the evil, but it all came from the lich. The fighter that lost it was po'ed - and that story still gets laughs to this day. I didn't take it away from them - they did it to themselves.... :) But it solved the problem, because they were only about 8th level then and it was way too powerful to be in the party. Also, aren't there ways to make them use glitterdust when they aren't in combat, until they run out? More traps that make them think there is someone invisible in the room. Hit and Run attacks, where you attack from a secret door, then disappear through it before they buff. That could waste a lot of spells quickly. ROB
Archtyrant Terevoth 07-25-07, 12:17 AM	This is a good theory, and a noble goal, but I have to contest that it isn't going to make epic viable. If what you are saying is correct, people are willing to buy a 1-20th level game that breaks down before the end. 'Broken' problems then are not the cause of epic doing poorly. Well yes.. people are willing to buy a 1-20 game that breaks down, but probably because they didn't know that before they bought it. It takes a lot of playing to actually get that high in level and then some more to figure out the broken combos at high levels. And problems get worse at epic. One of the main thing is that the dice always remains a d20, but bonuses continue to grow at uneven intervals. So you can look at 2 epic characters and one may have a will save of +45 and the other a will save of +17 and that's unacceptable. They're not even playing the same game at that point. There are other issues beyond broken rules, there are also complex rules. A high level game is frighteningly complex. And at those levels, missing even one ability on the laundry list can spell instant death. They need to be able to see invisible, hit flying creatures, escape forcecages, resist maze, and so forth. Many of the creatures in the ELH are pushovers to certain tactics, because indeed high level combat is so complex that the designers didn't fully account for it. To make things worse, high level combat is slow. Fighter types are throwing 5-10 attack rolls each round, casters are casting 2-3 spells all with a varied amount of possible effects. Coupled with gate, PCs are summoning monsters and cluttering the battlefield. Combats can take hours to go through at epic, because there are just so many options and things take longer to resolve. And with complexity comes long preparation. Consider the time it takes to create a 20th level wizard NPC, or even just all the abilities you have to familiarize yourself with to run an epic monster. Really, running epic is a pain in the ass. It's why few DMs are willing to run high or epic level games.
runestar 07-25-07, 12:29 AM	This reminds me - how the heck does one run a phane? Stuff like time duplicate and temporal regression sound like a pain to implement.:confused:
Mister_Sinister 07-25-07, 06:21 AM	I'm with Terevoth on this one. You can't just say 'Rule 0 it away', because Rule 0-ing everything makes everything a guideline, not a rule. If you want a system, it has to be internally balanced and consistent and not an invitation to players to 'make life hell' for the DM. The DM has enough work to do as it is, without having to watch the power level of EVERY player at EVERY level ALL the time. Seriously, this is why we HAVE rules instead of everything being free-form: to ensure balance. However, current DnD fails to do this. Thus, if they fix the 1-20 rules, they will know where to take epic.
bluemage55 07-25-07, 07:51 AM	This is a good theory, and a noble goal, but I have to contest that it isn't going to make epic viable. If what you are saying is correct, people are willing to buy a 1-20th level game that breaks down before the end. 'Broken' problems then are not the cause of epic doing poorly. I'm gonna have to partially agree and disagree. I would argue that although fixing pre-epic (especially at levels 15th-20th) alone is insufficient towards making epic viable, it is a necessary step that must be taken. So you need a whole lot more than just fixing high-levels, but unless you start there you're going to have even more problems as levels climb higher. There are just several high-level proud nails left from older editions that haven't been addressed by WotC due to lack of playtesting (and why should they, when it is more important to focus on the low-levels that much more people play than high levels). Simply fixing 9th-level spells such as gate, shapechange, mage's disjunction, and polymorph any object, for example, would be a good start. The predominant attitude in older editions was that 9th-level spells were supposed to be wackily powerful, since it was supposed to be the pinnacle of the game (and arcane casters leveled slower than everyone else to boot). However, in the 3.X system where 17th-level is just another step, the power curve needs to be fixed so that it continues to scale in a linear fashion. Next up would be some class balancing. If the cleric and druid are overpowered at 1st-5th level, the power gap is only to increase into epic. The same goes for the very underpowered fighter, and for the slightly underpowered barbarian, monk, and sorcerer. I would also be partial to the approach taken in Star Wars Saga Edition (which is bound to be a source of inspiration for D&D 4.0) in cutting down the number of base classes. Although this would be a complicated endeavor, and might be an unwanted idea due to the loss of revenue generating pages in later supplements, balancing 5 classes would definitely be easier than balancing 11. Streamlining combat would also be a good idea. 3.X has led to games being potentially bogged down, especially at higher levels, due to a large number of actions and dice rolls possible. Epic-level-combat involves extremely lengthy turns, which affects the fun at a table-top game when one player is waiting for the others. As before, many of the combat streamlining changes in Star Wars Saga Edition would be welcome here.
archerpwr 07-25-07, 09:29 AM	Quick question: Does the game run more smoothly if you refrain from summons and just cast buffs that are sure to last the whole battle? I don't cast summons (not my style) and I either persist my buffs or they last minutes. During a 15ish round combat (I came in on round 8) my turns only took 2 minutes or less (pounce, full attack, maybe cast a spell). A digital dice roller was used for most of my rolls though (hydras...).
bluemage55 07-25-07, 09:57 AM	Quick question: Does the game run more smoothly if you refrain from summons and just cast buffs that are sure to last the whole battle? Of course it would. However, under the existing system using a certain number of summons can be a good idea for certain builds, which would lead to extra paperwork. Consider, for example, the following 1v1 battle at ECL 19 from the Core Coliseum:http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4958156#post4958156. Take a look at the ridiculous amount of time involved in each round, then multiply by 4 to imagine the amount for a full-scale battle, then multiply it some more as you climb into epic.
archerpwr 07-25-07, 10:31 AM	Yuck. That's it. Summon Monster isn't on my class list anymore.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-25-07, 10:42 AM	I'm not convinced that Epic levels should be completely distinctive and grossly more powerful. That's a nice enough concept at 21st level, and everybody wants to feel special, but when you alter the power curves that got you through 1-20, things get a little odd. I would love to see Epic rules that took a much more wholistic scaling approach rather than trying to reinvent the wheel simply because everybody feels cooler doing it. That's been my philosophy while revamping epic rules for my own game. Class abilities advance at the same pace as pre-epic, epic feats are more powerful than pre-epic ones, but there are no feats, abilities or items that add multiples to anything. For example, I've expanded the use of Dire Charge to make it more than just Pounce, but I've left out feats like Epic Smite that multiply statistics rather than add them gradually. Leveling up to 21st level should be cooler than leveling up to 20th, but it should not be XXXXX:cool:XXX:cool:er!!!!!!!!
Archtyrant Terevoth 07-25-07, 06:30 PM	Quick question: Does the game run more smoothly if you refrain from summons and just cast buffs that are sure to last the whole battle? It'll help, but won't totally fix the problem. There are a number of causes. Extra Actions: Anything that gives extra actions, whether its by summoning a creature with its own actions or actually giving more actions to the PC directly (Time Stop), that will bog down play a lot. More complex tactics: Epic characters, especially casters, generally take longer to think and plan what they're going to do. It's not a tradeoff between a color spray or a magic missile, it's dozens and dozens of potential options. Lots of attacks: Fighter types are rolling far too many attacks at epic level and that makes the game much slower. It'd be a lot easier to have some mechanic similar to SAGA that limits the number of attacks. Lots of Dice: This one applies primarily to wizard direct damage spells, like 25 dice fireballs and such. A digital dice roller helps here, otherwise you're spending a lot of time simply adding the dice up. Lots of Math: You're adding and subtracting bigger numbers in epic, and that's generally slower than small numbers.
archerpwr 07-25-07, 06:49 PM	Hmm. I'm guilty of all of the above. Extra Actions: I'm a swiftblade (efficient timestop and 2 std actions) More Complex Tactics: I'm a caster Lots of attacks: When I shapechange into a 12 headed hydra I get between 24 and 48 attacks on a charge (if I have prep time to get more heads I can get 48). Lots of Dice: See hydra and add arcane strike. Lots of Math: I brought my graphing calculator to the game and had another player do my dice with a program. The good news is I can do mad dps :D
BillTheManiac 07-26-07, 05:33 PM	Combine Attacks [Epic] Effect: Choose 2 of your attacks. You may combine these attacks into one attack with the damage from both attacks added together and the highest attack bonus. Special: You may take this feat multiple times, even more then you have attacks (to allow for temporary buffs). Each time you can combine another attack into the combination.
archerpwr 07-26-07, 10:32 PM	Combine Attacks [Epic] Honestly, that feat seems really not worth it. All my attacks are identical as a hydra and none of my other forms will give me more than 10 attacks. Nice for someone that full attacks though (makes the last attack hit). Thanks for the idea though. PS: dice roller programs are what prevented me from just saying "calculate the average?"
BillTheManiac 07-27-07, 09:24 AM	Honestly, that feat seems really not worth it. All my attacks are identical as a hydra and none of my other forms will give me more than 10 attacks. Nice for someone that full attacks though (makes the last attack hit). Thanks for the idea though. PS: dice roller programs are what prevented me from just saying "calculate the average?" It was designed for full attacks. Monsters are a bit harder.
GAMBLE_d13 07-27-07, 10:55 AM	That Feat makes Charge mighty Powerful, unless you only get to add Strength and Power Attack once, in which case it sucks. Something I think I'll try is a time limit on Player turns. Something like Initiative = seconds to think, or Level or Intelligence, or something of the sorts. To justify it, yes it is a game, and yes your Characters are better at making these decisions than the Players that run them, but when we think that these decisons in play are split second decisions, then that means that every second spent OOC thinking is 100 times longer than what the Character gets. So if I give each PC say their Int Mod x their Init in seconds to decide an action then that is going to be hundreds if not thousands of times longer than their Character would get. (plz excuse the rambling, I didnt get much sleep, and its late). However, I am curious to the lengths of these combats that you are all having, as I have yet to be involved in a fight involving less than 20 individuals that has lasted longer than 2 or 3 rounds. In order for our group to engage in a 15 round combat we would have to be facing ATLEAST 40 opponents (unless it was all Hit and Run). Anyway I dont think WotC will ever be able to fix High Level let alone Epic, they simply do not have ANY idea of how game balance works (perhaps starting at a purely mathimatical point would be a good idea though).
archerpwr 07-27-07, 11:25 AM	It was designed for full attacks. Monsters are a bit harder. Seems good for that. Dice rolling programs really help.
archerpwr 07-27-07, 11:37 AM	stuff For a time limit, just limit each player to 60 seconds to declare what they are doing. If they run out of time they lose their turn. As for charging, pounce is really easy to get. For the length of combat, the BBEG D Doored every turn, had a high AC, was collosal plus and had standstill which shut me down until the saint's artifact greater cursed the BBEG's dex to 0 which got rid of both the AC (wraithstrike) and the AoO control. After that it took 2 rounds.
BillTheManiac 07-27-07, 06:53 PM	Now if we strip away the complexity, we get something interesting. BTW my feat is a little overpowered. 2.5 atk increase/feat, but only on full attacks, and not as good with Haste/TWF. Although with TWF you can do sneaky stuff involving one high plus weapon and one low plus, high damage weapon. It's supposed to be overpowered so people will take it. I think you can combine attacks with the same bonus for free, as well. That would solve everyone's problems.
Droidarr 08-13-07, 12:48 PM	Extra Actions: Anything that gives extra actions, whether its by summoning a creature with its own actions or actually giving more actions to the PC directly (Time Stop), that will bog down play a lot. More complex tactics: Epic characters, especially casters, generally take longer to think and plan what they're going to do. It's not a tradeoff between a color spray or a magic missile, it's dozens and dozens of potential options. Lots of attacks: Fighter types are rolling far too many attacks at epic level and that makes the game much slower. It'd be a lot easier to have some mechanic similar to SAGA that limits the number of attacks. Lots of Dice: This one applies primarily to wizard direct damage spells, like 25 dice fireballs and such. A digital dice roller helps here, otherwise you're spending a lot of time simply adding the dice up. Lots of Math: You're adding and subtracting bigger numbers in epic, and that's generally slower than small numbers.[/QUOTE] The only one in this list affecting either of our epic campaigns is the more complex tactics, or specifically the casters slowing everyone down. Best way to help that is enforce spell memorization for the wizards and secondly if they have to keep looking stuff up, tell them they forgot the spell which is an in-house rule to speed things up... If you have to keep looking stuff up, you don't know your character. As far as dice rolls... We have one player that does it in groups of 5 or 10, one player who loves the 1 die for all! Just remember KiSS.. Keep it Simple Stupid :D Works all the time and keeps it moving forward and fun
BillTheManiac 08-13-07, 09:26 PM	I think complex tactics are inevitable without overhauling the spell system. Rather, people should just enforce the players to, say, print out sheets from the SRD with the descriptions of their spells, as well as a pair of sheets with the short descriptions, including the caster level-based amounts.
archerpwr 08-13-07, 09:55 PM	I think complex tactics are inevitable without overhauling the spell system. Rather, people should just enforce the players to, say, print out sheets from the SRD with the descriptions of their spells, as well as a pair of sheets with the short descriptions, including the caster level-based amounts. I have like 20 sheets of notes including a sumarization for each of my buffs.
BillTheManiac 08-14-07, 08:41 AM	I have like 20 sheets of notes including a sumarization for each of my buffs. Your problem is more that you have tons of attacks. For pure spellcasters and non-hydra gishes the spell sheet will help a lot.
Carwyn_Nhung 08-16-07, 06:04 PM	It seems to me that Epic levels will nescecerally only be played by a few people. Why? Because it seems to me the difference between a high level dual and a low level dual should not be merely the modifiers used, but the complexity of the fighting. This means that players can start out at low levels and gain more nuanced power as their ability to keep track of things increases. The thing that would make me buy epic stuff would be examples of strategic complexity and balences of power despite the peoples self-sufficiency. I currently barely know how to run a campaign past level 8, because of the potential of spells at that level to confuse things, so books of advice of how to deal with this, or even better, satisfying solutions or counters to these effects within the game rules itself. The essance of roleplaying games is to me making weakness interesting, without the rules everyone is godlike, and the best rule systems are those that use weakness well. The classic example of this is making high level magic fragile, in that it must be treated more carefully to avoid unwanted effects. I like it when people hold off on wish because burning hands is safer, or when otherwise invulnerable foes miss out on a small flaw in their plan through hubris. A sense of humility amongst the epic gives it all the more impact, through contrast, and through the idea of high stakes. On the other end of the scale, I'd like to see more examples of how you could change the world: The more influence characters have, the more depth the world they influence should have to match, and I am not sure I can provide that. Planescape does this very well frequently, by pulling on tried and tested epic concepts from real religion and philosophy and setting you among them as a lesser equal. In planescape some people really do want to end the universe, but because of the power of the others, they do it through weapon-smithing. Ingenious. Its not all well done of course, but that really impresses me. So basically I'm saying that epic level stuff should be all about entrenching in the rules dramatic balence between high level charecters, and allowing their influence to mean something big for the world, perhaps through using personification to allow you to settle world hunger in a fist-fight (dualing deities basically) or through some other means.
summerstar 09-13-07, 10:57 PM	Ok, I've been perusing various threads and I want all epic fans to think about this. How can WotC produce epic material that will sell? Everyone knows that poor epic rules leads to poor epic support leads to poor epic reception among the bulk of gamers. So my question is, how can WotC execute epic books or material in a manner that will sell, and thus be justified in producing? I have a similar question. What lessons can be drawn from the popular MMORPG end-game play for epic d20-style RPG design?
Alias 09-14-07, 11:58 AM	Originally Posted by Kain Darkwind Ok, I've been perusing various threads and I want all epic fans to think about this. How can WotC produce epic material that will sell? Everyone knows that poor epic rules leads to poor epic support leads to poor epic reception among the bulk of gamers. So my question is, how can WotC execute epic books or material in a manner that will sell, and thus be justified in producing? I have a similar question. What lessons can be drawn from the popular MMORPG end-game play for epic d20-style RPG design? Integrate epic more closely into the core rules. Epic is not OMGWERESOPOWERFULNOW... it's "Oh cool, I'm 21st level." IOW, it's not a switch that you flip when you hit 21 and suddenly you're EPIC - it's a natural progression of the power curve. If anything, "epic" is merely a label denoting high-level play. To that end, the lower levels need to be fixed first - stuff like immunities, massive energy resistance, spells that give you crazy abilities like teleport, and 9th level spells in general. Epic was tacked on as an afterthought, not integrated into the system, and it shows. It was also poorly done - the spellcasting system, Union (30th level city guards? :crazy: ), the magic items... most of it's crap. The monsters are about the only thing worth salvaging, and even some of those are normal D&D monsters writ large.
BillTheManiac 09-15-07, 09:13 AM	I have a similar question. What lessons can be drawn from the popular MMORPG end-game play for epic d20-style RPG design? What we can learn is to put equal attention to each level of the game. If we don't put equal attention to epic, it will collapse. Oh, with 4th edition 1-30th: Won't it probably be just as hard to make the jump from 30th to 31st-infinity as to make the jump from 20th to 21st-infinity in 3.5?
summerstar 09-18-07, 11:18 PM	What we can learn is to put equal attention to each level of the game. I agree. I wonder if increasing power levels in much smaller increments each level ...more like the percentages used in the old Rolemaster RPG would help even out the character progression. I'd like to see no distinction in game rules from regular play to epic play... same system, just a different point on the scale. Giving the game an epic feel seems to me to more a matter of roleplay and less about reaching a particular level. It strikes me that using numbers.. fractions or ratios of damage against resistances would help the game even out, but would also require calculations not easily performed at the tabletop without a handy laptop spreadsheet. This may not be bad since it appears that the game is headed down an electronic path regardless of the math involved. Regards, Summstar
Sagetim 09-19-07, 02:57 AM	I think you need to learn how Time Stop works. Daze, FoD, and Pris Spray do nothing during Time Stop. If you don't like this trick, send a few Astral Projected attackers against them 3 or 4 times, to draw out all their Suddens. The big problem with novas is that you can't do them too many times a day. If the DM doesn't take advantage of that, then the players are not seeing the downside of their actions. Take your wizard example - he wasn't using any Blur, Displacement, Mirror images? He got full attacked by everyone? Had no Contingenies? No Arcane Sight to see the invisibles? No minions? No Magic Jar to get a different body to use for awhile? The DM does have to do a lot of work to counter optimized PCs, but it should be doable with even much lower CR creatures. Don't forget about traps, including Unhallows that cast Dispel Magic, Dispelling screens, etc. ROB and just to screw with them, you could make use of spell engines (magic of faerun) They cast anything near one, and boom, get a fort save spell at them (perhaps negative energy burst). Or possibly have an 'animate dead' spell engine. That animates crazy skeletons around them, or the foes they JUST killed to fight them as zombies. Hell, if you really want you could have a spell engine that autocasts mord disjunction in an area of effect centered on the very front of the room. Couple that with the back of the room being the only safe place, as well as a fake wall or something to keep the caster safe...well...then you can really screw them over. Perhaps have a wall with only the tiniest of holes to see through for the opposing mage to cast though. Or arrow slits and archers. Use autofiring auto reseting traps on them. They're optimized, if they die, soul trap em. Then shatter the soul in the process of making an evil item.
Dannar 09-24-07, 09:41 AM	CRs are out of whack at level 11. For example I just sent an APL 11 party through EL 15, 14, 17, 13, and 8 and they didn't even get scratched. That was using sound tactics and super-powergamed NPCs to counter theirs. Now the party has the NPCs magic items, making them even tougher. When the party is invisble and everybody has evasion, casts glitterdust judiciously, has a +27 grapple check, can move at 70, and one of the players has military training, pretty much everything goes down fast. I was going to hit them with the scorching ray record damage trick during a celerity but the wizard couldn't see the target make a target so he wound up dropping an empowered fireball that damaged nobody despite having 3 PCs in the spread. Then they killed him in two hits (cutting through his stoneskin like butter). I seriously think I could throw CR 23s at them without damaging them significantly. Send an Evil Aligned Mirror party at them (i.e. use their own tactics against them). Cast glitterdust on them. Stoneshape the wizard in with a wight that has cleric levels. Let the fighters/melee take on a few tag-teaming rogues, a couple rounds of them getting sneak attacked for an extra 6d6 and they'll start to feel it real quick. If they are still mopping the floor with your encounters, start mixing it up. Send multiple waves in the same encounter. Send multiple encounters in the spanse of a few hours. If they are resting after a single encounter, then drop not so subtle hints and signs that there is no good place to rest here, they'll probably be attacked if they attempt to rest. Attack them while they are resting, you don't have to send a major encounter at them while they are sleeping, just enough to interrupt the wizard's rest. If they continue to rest after single encounters, ramp up the difficulty of these interrupt encounters as I call them.
Thanael 09-25-07, 07:43 AM	The only one in this list affecting either of our epic campaigns is the more complex tactics, or specifically the casters slowing everyone down. Best way to help that is enforce spell memorization for the wizards and secondly if they have to keep looking stuff up, tell them they forgot the spell which is an in-house rule to speed things up... If you have to keep looking stuff up, you don't know your character. As far as dice rolls... We have one player that does it in groups of 5 or 10, one player who loves the 1 die for all! Just remember KiSS.. Keep it Simple Stupid :D Works all the time and keeps it moving forward and fun You do know that 1 die for all does not give the same probability spread than rolling all dice, right? The chances of rolling a six 20 times is a lot lower than rolling a six once.
Gemstone 09-25-07, 08:19 AM	In the current epic game I run with a friend, we've taken away all die rolls except d20's. This keeps a random factor in (altough it does power down Maximize spell quite a lot... I'm almost considering lowering it's spell adjustment). Miss chance has turned into percentage DR and such. we use excel to calculate damage, hit chance and such. It's actually quite simple to run :) Monster tactics though, is a pain, as I must look up some of them in the middle of combat.
Upper_Krust 09-25-07, 04:55 PM	Howdy Elondir! :) Immortals Handbook has taken a stab at it, but it's a hit dice based CR system, and that means it's not accurate either. The CR system is relatively accurate (although I am working on a superior model). However, that assumes a sort of 'meat and potatoes' PC construction. Once your players start min/maxing, rules lawyering or magic item creation things can get out of hand. What I generally suggest is to add 10% to the needed CR for each of the above criteria your PCs fulfill. e.g. If your players min/max and create their own items use CRs 20% higher than you normally would.
Gemstone 09-25-07, 05:02 PM	Once your players start min/maxing, rules lawyering or magic item creation things can get out of hand. What I generally suggest is to add 10% to the needed CR for each of the above criteria your PCs fulfill. e.g. If your players min/max and create their own items use CRs 20% higher than you normally would. Actually, that makes one Baator of a lot of sense... I'll try that out and see were it gets me :) Another part of the system which should be reworked is the epic spellcasting system. I would very much prefer a system that worked upon the basic spell progression, and not a skill based one
Upper_Krust 09-25-07, 05:16 PM	Hiya Kain mate! :) Ok, I've been perusing various threads and I want all epic fans to think about this. How can WotC produce epic material that will sell? Everyone knows that poor epic rules leads to poor epic support leads to poor epic reception among the bulk of gamers. So my question is, how can WotC execute epic books or material in a manner that will sell, and thus be justified in producing? Well the short answer is that they won't, at least not for 3.5. I think the main problem with epic material is the d20 system itself. It really doesn't lend itself to epic play. Basically you have too much book-keeping, too much redundant rubbish (especially spells (PCs) and spell-like abilities (Monsters)), too many buffs, too many magic items, too many stacking bonuses and with so many options it becomes childs play to break the system or at least gain a ridiculous advantage that skews balance very badly. Especially with regards exceeding the 20 point threshold of the d20. With the Immortals Handbook I tried boiling everything down to the bare essentials. 1. I fixed spellcasting at epic levels (note I didn't say Epic Spellcasting). 2. I fixed the christmas tree effect for having too many items by capping the number of artifacts that work at any one time. However, that said the other stuff was so intrinsic to the game that I didn't feel comfortable changing it, so epic play still gets out of hand. To be honest I probably didn't go far enough. However, it seems that, at first glance anyway, 4th Edition is looking to make the necessary changes. If we have learnt anything from 3rd Edition epic material its that perhaps that less is more. I think that philosophy should be remembered by anyone contemplating working on 30th+ level material for 4th Edition.