Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DonThelonious 11-21-07, 10:17 AM	Well you read the main question. Here is the skinny on what I want to do: This is kind of a one shot game where my players get to resurrect their old 2ed characters, only I am letting them be brought back as rank 1 or 2 demi gods, with 30 levels. What I need help doing is planning an adventure around this. What should I throw at them? What kind of truly epic battles should I plan for? What would make a good challenge for characters of this type? The party is going to consist of an Ogre Mage fighter/Monk, a Tinker Gnome Artificer/Rogue, a Dark Elf Ranger/Rogue/Cleric, and our new player who just started wants to play a Succubus Dervish/???. They begged me to let them go gish, but I said no to that. Any suggestions? Advice? Warnings? Sage Wisdom? I am totally open to suggestions, so throw your craziest ideas at me.
Tamaki 11-21-07, 12:58 PM	I don't know how much power they'd get from being demigods, but those class selections sound patently awful for epic. How much of each class have they taken? As it stands I really wanted to tell you to have them go hunt some Abominations, because I just love that, but I'm not sure about it anymore.
Bloodsoul 11-21-07, 05:16 PM	Get caught up in some divine endeavor, perhaps? Heironeous and Hextor duking it out again and their caught in the middle? Tharizdun escapes his prison? A crazed fanatic tries to get Boccob to sign his blessed book? Will they be allowed to use Alter Reality right off the bat? ¬_¬
Austin_SJ 11-21-07, 09:31 PM	i take you you've got deities and demigods? well running a god campaign you have to give them a chance to raise in divine rank, so give them other demigods to kill, other than that epic level handbook has tons of fun.
BillTheManiac 11-24-07, 06:00 PM	Use dicefreaks stuff?
WarDragon 11-25-07, 04:32 PM	To give them appropriate enemies to fight, might want to check this out: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=6118
DonThelonious 11-25-07, 11:12 PM	To give them appropriate enemies to fight, might want to check this out: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=6118 Thank You:)
WarDragon 11-26-07, 01:07 AM	You're welcome. It's very good, and the second in the series (Ascension, a revised system of PC-balanced deity rules) is going to be released in the next couple of months.
Kain_Darkwind 11-26-07, 10:48 AM	My advice would be to begin in Sigil. Meet in a tavern. You not only get to immediately jump head first into action, but you have the advantage of screaming and outraged fans when you tell your stories here on the boards. ;)
kreesteeyan 11-26-07, 10:51 AM	My advice would be to begin in Sigil. Meet in a tavern. You not only get to immediately jump head first into action, but you have the advantage of screaming and outraged fans when you tell your stories here on the boards. ;) lol
Starmage21 11-29-07, 06:20 AM	Use dicefreaks stuff? This game is going to be hard enough to adjudicate as it is, Dieties & Demigods material in general wasnt meant for players. Yet, you propose that you make this HARDER by throwing extra in there? ...must be a shameless Dicefreaks plug. If you are familiar with the characters from 2nd edition, but more importantly youre familiar with your players, running this campaign wont be too hard. Keep in mind that the Alter Reality is effectively a suped-up Wish spell usable at will, almost as bad as having the Trickery domain which actually grants you Wish as a spell-like ability usable at-will. Be prepared to deal with the effects of either. Some of the other powers available via SDA(salient divine ability; see: God Feats) can allow divine PCs to lay waste to any mortal without any effort. The definition of mortal in this case is any being without divine rank. You probobly shouldnt award XP to players for these instances(as there was no challenge). Since youre running a 1-shot, you really dont have to worry about this. Since your players are divine, they have portfolios even if they still hang out with each other like theyre still adventurers. Create situations where their portfolios come into play. For instance: an abomination has gotten loose, and now the god of rogues has to navigate an extraplanar dungeon filled with traps set up by an entire pantheon of greater divine beings to prevent this thing from getting loose. All the while, the war god must hold off an army of conjured beings, who are somehow capable of completely bypassing his divine damage reduction(but not other forms of DR). The God of Magic is either trying to figure out how to turn off the flow of magical creatures, or is blasting away, trying to help the god of war.
Kain_Darkwind 11-29-07, 07:53 AM	This game is going to be hard enough to adjudicate as it is, Dieties & Demigods material in general wasnt meant for players. Yet, you propose that you make this HARDER by throwing extra in there? ...must be a shameless Dicefreaks plug. :rolleyes: Yeah, must be. Or maybe Bill recognizes that Dicefreaks is one of the few gaming communities that involves and encourages epic play, thus having advice and material that can help someone looking to play such a game. Guess your comment is just a shameful Dicefreaks dig. But what can you expect from someone who can't spell deities correctly?
Starmage21 11-29-07, 08:19 AM	:rolleyes: Yeah, must be. Or maybe Bill recognizes that Dicefreaks is one of the few gaming communities that involves and encourages epic play, thus having advice and material that can help someone looking to play such a game. Guess your comment is just a shameful Dicefreaks dig. But what can you expect from someone who can't spell deities correctly? So i type fast enough to make a minor mistake now and then, and that makes my entire argument invalid? Brilliant ad hominem. L2english nub My point is, dont advise you add all that extra stuff in when someone asks for help. Try instead to make things easier for them, because putting bacon on a sandwhich doesnt make it easier to understand what a sandwhich is. and now I want a Jr Bacon Cheeseburger
Kain_Darkwind 11-29-07, 08:27 AM	So i type fast enough to make a minor mistake now and then? Brilliant ad hominem. My point is, dont advise you add all that extra stuff in when someone asks for help. Try instead to make things easier for them, because putting bacon on a sandwhich doesnt make it easier to understand what a sandwhich is. Sandwich. But I suppose you were typing too fast again? Both times? More to the point, the OP wanted high CR encounters to throw at his players. Telling someone to limit themselves to the sad ELH and few epic monsters found elsewhere is not helpful. Upper Krust's book Epic Beastiary (The non-DF source, but suggested by DF members) has tons of high CR encounters and the DF website has plenty to be found on it as well. This isn't over complicating, it's providing a resource to the OP that he himself asked for.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 08:33 AM	Sandwich. But I suppose you were typing too fast again? Both times? More to the point, the OP wanted high CR encounters to throw at his players. Telling someone to limit themselves to the sad ELH and few epic monsters found elsewhere is not helpful. Upper Krust's book Epic Beastiary (The non-DF source, but suggested by DF members) has tons of high CR encounters and the DF website has plenty to be found on it as well. This isn't over complicating, it's providing a resource to the OP that he himself asked for. Well you read the main question. Here is the skinny on what I want to do: This is kind of a one shot game where my players get to resurrect their old 2ed characters, only I am letting them be brought back as rank 1 or 2 demi gods, with 30 levels. What I need help doing is planning an adventure around this. What should I throw at them? What kind of truly epic battles should I plan for? What would make a good challenge for characters of this type? The party is going to consist of an Ogre Mage fighter/Monk, a Tinker Gnome Artificer/Rogue, a Dark Elf Ranger/Rogue/Cleric, and our new player who just started wants to play a Succubus Dervish/???. They begged me to let them go gish, but I said no to that. Any suggestions? Advice? Warnings? Sage Wisdom? I am totally open to suggestions, so throw your craziest ideas at me. Incorrect. He asked how to challenge said PCs, not necessarily what homebrew constructions you need to challenge them in the typical D&D hack-n-slash operation. Go back, reread my entire post in the attempt to help him, instead of stopping right after a single statement of a larger argument that invoked your passion. Either help the OP with your own ideas, or expand on someone else's ideas WITHOUT ADDING ADDITIONAL COMPLICATION. If you wanna do something else, like argyu ohver ma spellin' <snip>
BillTheManiac 11-29-07, 12:18 PM	This game is going to be hard enough to adjudicate as it is, Dieties & Demigods material in general wasnt meant for players. Yet, you propose that you make this HARDER by throwing extra in there? ...must be a shameless Dicefreaks plug. DF isn't extra, it is a complete replacement of the divine rules, fixing various difficulties. Shameless DF plug? I don't even have an account there. I just read the stuff because it's cool. I'd prefer if you wouldn't leap to conclusions. If you are familiar with the characters from 2nd edition, but more importantly youre familiar with your players, running this campaign wont be too hard. Keep in mind that the Alter Reality is effectively a suped-up Wish spell usable at will, almost as bad as having the Trickery domain which actually grants you Wish as a spell-like ability usable at-will. Be prepared to deal with the effects of either. Some of the other powers available via SDA(salient divine ability; see: God Feats) can allow divine PCs to lay waste to any mortal without any effort. The definition of mortal in this case is any being without divine rank. You probobly shouldnt award XP to players for these instances(as there was no challenge). Since youre running a 1-shot, you really dont have to worry about this. Since your players are divine, they have portfolios even if they still hang out with each other like theyre still adventurers. Create situations where their portfolios come into play. For instance: an abomination has gotten loose, and now the god of rogues has to navigate an extraplanar dungeon filled with traps set up by an entire pantheon of greater divine beings to prevent this thing from getting loose. All the while, the war god must hold off an army of conjured beings, who are somehow capable of completely bypassing his divine damage reduction(but not other forms of DR). The God of Magic is either trying to figure out how to turn off the flow of magical creatures, or is blasting away, trying to help the god of war.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 04:52 PM	DF isn't extra, it is a complete replacement of the divine rules, fixing various difficulties. Shameless DF plug? I don't even have an account there. I just read the stuff because it's cool. I'd prefer if you wouldn't leap to conclusions. And thats exactly what I mean Bill. Rather than just suggesting that the OP stick to material that is common to every single person who comes to these boards, you suggest he throw the D&DG book right in the trash and use a completely homebrew creation. Its like creating houserules for material you havent even read yet. THAT is additional complication regardless of where it comes from.
Witch 11-29-07, 05:00 PM	And thats exactly what I mean Bill. Rather than just suggesting that the OP stick to material that is common to every single person who comes to these boards, you suggest he throw the D&DG book right in the trash and use a completely homebrew creation. Its like creating houserules for material you havent even read yet. THAT is additional complication regardless of where it comes from. Not really. It's like giving him better rules from the start, rather than having him deal with all of the crappy ones first. This is not a generic criticism of WotC work, but rather, of D&Dg in specific. The work is crap. It's not coherent with Epic rules at all.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 05:02 PM	Not really. It's like giving him better rules from the start, rather than having him deal with all of the crappy ones first. This is not a generic criticism of WotC work, but rather, of D&Dg. but "better" is subjective. What is better to one is not better to another. I propose in that situation the best perspective from which to offer advice is from an official material only.
Witch 11-29-07, 05:05 PM	but "better" is subjective. What is better to one is not better to another. I propose in that situation the best perspective from which to offer advice is from an official material only. No, "better" is not subjective. It is related to a perspective (in this case: "does it have more or less problems?" or "is it more or less coherent?"), not to a person. When we have Deity Rules and Divine Rules, and this two don't even care about one another in official material, and another source does a good job at having them work together, then that other source is objectively better, because it causes less problems.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 05:10 PM	No, "better" is not subjective. It is related to a perspective (in this case: "does it have more or less problems?" or "is it more or less coherent?"), not to a person. When we have Deity Rules and Divine Rules, and this two don't even care about one another in official material, and another source does a good job at having them work together, then that other source is objectively better, because it causes less problems. Deity and Divine Rules? I could assume youre talking about Deities and Demigods, which only deals with gods with maybe a sidebar about granting a few divine ranks to planar lords.
Witch 11-29-07, 05:12 PM	Deity and Divine Rules? I could assume youre talking about Deities and Demigods, which only deals with gods with maybe a sidebar about granting a few divine ranks to planar lords. No. I'm talking about how Deities and Demigods works together with the Epic Level Handbook. In the official rules, the two are entirely incoherent. They don't mix well. Deities don't get epic feats, for example. They never have levels beyond twentieth in a single class. They never have epic prestige classes.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 05:16 PM	No. I'm talking about how Deities and Demigods works together with the Epic Level Handbook. In the official rules, the two are entirely incoherent. They don't mix well. Deities don't get epic feats, for example. They never have levels beyond twentieth in a single class. They never have epic prestige classes. OK I see what youre talking about. Well thats not necessarily a problem because the DM doesnt have to use the gods published, because theyre designed with the level 1-20 core party in mind. Aside from that, the rules to mesh as well as any other supplement.
Witch 11-29-07, 05:24 PM	OK I see what youre talking about. Well thats not necessarily a problem because the DM doesnt have to use the gods published, because theyre designed with the level 1-20 core party in mind. Aside from that, the rules to mesh as well as any other supplement. The gods can't have been designed with a 1-20 core party in mind (incidentally, if they have been, why would you recommend using them to someone who's clearly playing epic level?). The entire book of Deities and Demigods consists mostly of statistics. They have abilities to kill mortals instantly, without defense. Even if they don't have them, their stats are so high as to be able to do the same thing. In other words: the stats are simply not useable with any 1-20 party (unless you abuse the rules like with the Hulking Hurler). In other words, either the stats do not stand in a meaningful relation to mortals at all, or they stand in relation to epic level creatures. And yet, they do not use the rules open to epic level characters. One would expect the things that are supposed to only be able to be used in an epic game, to work within an epic game. It is in that sense that Bill the Maniac suggested Dicefreaks, because they (a word I use because I was not a member back then) devised a system that made divine rules and epic rules mesh, with minimal changes.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 05:36 PM	The gods can't have been designed with a 1-20 core party in mind (incidentally, if they have been, why would you recommend using them to someone who's clearly playing epic level?). The entire book of Deities and Demigods consists mostly of statistics. They have abilities to kill mortals instantly, without defense. Even if they don't have them, their stats are so high as to be able to do the same thing. In other words: the stats are simply not useable with any 1-20 party (unless you abuse the rules like with the Hulking Hurler). In other words, either the stats do not stand in a meaningful relation to mortals at all, or they stand in relation to epic level creatures. And yet, they do not use the rules open to epic level characters. One would expect the things that are supposed to only be able to be used in an epic game, to work within an epic game. It is in that sense that Bill the Maniac suggested Dicefreaks, because they (a word I use because I was not a member back then) devised a system that made divine rules and epic rules mesh, with minimal changes. You have some good points, but I dont think i was clear enough in mine. The actual gods that were printed are aimed at being gods of a 1-20 party, but the framework(SDAs, feats, other divine abilities) work fine within the framework of any game, 1-20 or 20+. Even with the presentation of the 1-20 deities presented in the D&DG book, against even an epic party the situation still adds up to a moot point, because they could wipe you off the face of existance anyway. Again I must reiterate that the material was never meant to be on the player side anyway, and that there are role-playing considerations that need to be taken into account. Normally, wizards dont whip out their best spells the first encounter of the day. They would save them until they thought they really needed them(like against the BBEG).
Witch 11-29-07, 05:40 PM	There are other issues. For example, the Epic Level Handbook permits level 1,000 mortals. Regardless, the Divine Rules still have a sixtieth level god killing that mortal, not even allowing a save. There are indeed role-playing considerations that need to be taken into account. And those include, among others "why does the goddess of magic in Deities and Demigods fight better than any epic fighters?" A rather significant problem in the official rules that needed solving. In the light of all this (and even without it), your reaction of contempt for Dicefreaks was unwarranted and unjustified. It gives the impression you have a personal vendetta, and it makes the response on it understandable.
Kain_Darkwind 11-29-07, 05:45 PM	Are you done yet? I suggest you go sit somewhere away from a keyboard and cool off. And I suggest you keep quiet until you can spout something half way intelligent, but there's no law that you have to take good advice. Your tiresome crusade to belittle Dicefreaks at every opportunity grew old months ago, you were clearly barking up the wrong tree here and frankly, it's a little sad. I know this is the internet and thus you won't be capable of admitting you were wrong, so just fade out. You are apparently intent, by your own confession, on suggesting to someone who clearly stated they were playing an epic game, that they use rules that do not mesh with an epic game. I'm not sure why you would give someone such useless advice, unless maybe you have as much against DonThelonious as you do Dicefreaks. Don T, I know you were working on a monster tarrasque to challenge your PCs. Aside from using deities, epic monsters and epic leveled creatures, you could also use environmental or planar effects to impede your characters in their quests. Or, make the quests about hearts and minds, rather than brute strength. Set it up so if they take a direct 'smash the bad guy' route, they lose.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 05:47 PM	There are other issues. For example, the Epic Level Handbook permits level 1,000 mortals. Regardless, the Divine Rules still have a sixtieth level god killing that mortal, not even allowing a save. So the problem is that you think a level 1,000 mortal is better than a god of any level. The problem is they were designed to be separate and never equal. If a level 1 god can kill a level 1 billion mortal its no big deal, its the way its supposed to be according to the designs of this system. There are indeed role-playing considerations that need to be taken into account. And those include, among others "why does the goddess of magic in Deities and Demigods fight better than any epic fighters?" A rather significant problem in the official rules that needed solving. "Because shes a frickin GOD!" should be all you need for the suspension of that disbelief. In the light of all this (and even without it), your reaction of contempt for Dicefreaks was unwarranted and unjustified. It gives the impression you have a personal vendetta, and it makes the response on it understandable. I dont have a problem with dicefreaks' material, I read it, ive even used it, just never ever the mechanical stuff(I run as close to raw as I can in that regard). What I DO have a problem with is the arrogant attitude that it is the be-all-end-all fix for D&D. For you guys, maybe it is. For me, not so much. *edit*(apprently kain posted while I was working) to kain: You know what man, Im done with you /reported
Witch 11-29-07, 05:50 PM	So the problem is that you think a level 1,000 mortal is better than a god of any level. The problem is they were designed to be separate and never equal. If a level 1 god can kill a level 1 billion mortal its no big deal, its the way its supposed to be according to the designs of this system. No, they were designed seperate, not designed to be seperate. That is the problem. Noone ever thought it out thoroughly. "Because shes a frickin GOD!" should be all you need for the suspension of that disbelief. Okay: why is she almost as good at melee than the God of Fighting? And even then, that doesn't really make sense. Aphrodite was never depicted as equally good at fighting as, say, Achilles. I dont have a problem with dicefreaks' material, I read it, ive even used it, just never ever the mechanical stuff(I run as close to raw as I can in that regard). Then why on earth do you seem to deride Dicefreaks whenever you get the chance?
Starmage21 11-29-07, 05:58 PM	No, they were designed seperate, not designed to be seperate. That is the problem. Noone ever thought it out thoroughly. Okay: why is she almost as good at melee than the God of Fighting? And even then, that doesn't really make sense. Aphrodite was never depicted as equally good at fighting as, say, Achilles. I can agree with you on the first point, but the fact is they still go together as easily as any other parts of the system. second point: I cant remember the published statistics of the D&DG Aphrodite, but if she's got fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger levels than that reflects a certain amount of martial training doesnt it?
Witch 11-29-07, 06:00 PM	I can agree with you on the first point, but the fact is they still go together as easily as any other parts of the system. No, they do not. second point: I cant remember the published statistics of the D&DG Aphrodite, but if she's got fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger levels than that reflects a certain amount of martial training doesnt it? Ehm, I don't know what she has. I gave a generic example. The fact is that she has 20 Outsider hit dice, which makes her base attack bonus identical to the one of any other god with an equal amount of total levels.
Kain_Darkwind 11-29-07, 06:02 PM	second point: I cant remember the published statistics of the D&DG Aphrodite, but if she's got fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger levels than that reflects a certain amount of martial training doesnt it? Bard/Cleric/Sorcerer actually. And she has the same BaB as a fighter god of the same level.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 06:04 PM	No, they do not. Why? Ehm, I don't know what she has. I gave a generic example. The fact is that she has 20 Outsider hit dice, which makes her base attack bonus identical to the one of any other god with an equal amount of total levels. In that case, I would say that her ability to do combat is ingrained in her being as much as it is for any other outsider type being. The good thing is that the god of fighting has 20 outsider hit dice too, but hes got additional martial training to go with it(lots and lots of fighter feats and combat oriented feats, whereas aphrodite probobly doesnt have many)
Witch 11-29-07, 06:07 PM	I'm getting the impression you're trying to grasp at straws to claim that Deities and Demigods was well designed.
Starmage21 11-29-07, 06:09 PM	I'm getting the impression you're trying to grasp at straws to claim that Deities and Demigods was well designed. No, im asking you to tell me why the D&DG framework doesnt work with the rest of the system like you stated.
Witch 11-29-07, 06:15 PM	1) Deities having large amounts of immunities that can't be penetrated for some reason, not even by other deities, making combat more boring. 2) Deities don't have epic spells. 3) Deities don't have epic feats. 4) Deities don't have class levels beyond 20th. 5) Deities don't have sufficiently high caster levels, leading all their spells to be dispelled instantly. 6) This is solved by a Salient Divine Ability that fixed everything, but one wonders why on earth not every deity is given it, given how powerful it is: Alter Reality. 7) Deities don't differ sufficiently from another in melee; melee deities are significantly underpowered, given that magic deities are more than their equal in melee. 8) Generic mortal-affecting effects are given to deities, regardless of the mortal's level. 9) It's not clarified whether or not a character of very high level should still be considered mortal. This is off the top of my head. There's far more, no doubt. All these issues are solved when one, rather than using the 3.0 WotC system, one uses the 3.5 Dicefreaks system, which is completely compatible with average play (unlike the even superior system one finds in Immortal's Handbook.)
Starmage21 11-29-07, 06:29 PM	1) Deities having large amounts of immunities that can't be penetrated for some reason, not even by other deities, making combat more boring. subjective 2) Deities don't have epic spells. 3) Deities don't have epic feats. 4) Deities don't have class levels beyond 20th. 5) Deities don't have sufficiently high caster levels, leading all their spells to be dispelled instantly. The published deities dont, but the framework allows them to have all of these 6) This is solved by a Salient Divine Ability that fixed everything, but one wonders why on earth not every deity is given it, given how powerful it is: Alter Reality. Alter Reality is a suped-up Wish spell, not a fix for everything. It even says in it's description that it functions as Wish. 7) Deities don't differ sufficiently from another in melee; melee deities are significantly underpowered, given that magic deities are more than their equal in melee. Again, this can also be subjective. Homebrew gods created with the same rules framework of rules can differ as widely as PC characters. 8) Generic mortal-affecting effects are given to deities, regardless of the mortal's level. Whats wrong with this, aside from the fact that you think it should be different? 9) It's not clarified whether or not a character of very high level should still be considered mortal. Actually it is. You are a mortal until your DM grants you Divine Rank of 0 or greater. This is off the top of my head. There's far more, no doubt. This is a message board, we have lots of time, please research and list them. I would love to read them.
Witch 11-29-07, 06:47 PM	Actually it is. You are a mortal until your DM grants you Divine Rank of 0 or greater. So Asmodeus is a mortal?
Starmage21 11-29-07, 06:51 PM	So Asmodeus is a mortal? According to the definition of mortal used by D&DG, YES he is a mortal because he doesnt have Divine Rank, but if you dont want your Azmodeus to be a mortal under the D&DG definition of mortal, give him Divine Rank as mentioned in one of the sidebars in the same text.
The Serge7 11-29-07, 07:18 PM	subjective What's subjective about it? The published deities dont, but the framework allows them to have all of these The framework, perhaps, but not the RAW. The RAW support the core material only and do not have anything to do directly with epic material. Again, this can also be subjective. Homebrew gods created with the same rules framework of rules can differ as widely as PC characters. Irrelevant; see above. Whats wrong with this, aside from the fact that you think it should be different? If the goal is to create a cohesive cosmology, this type of design does not allow for any meaningful interaction with between "mortals" (using the WotC definition) and divine entities. Furthermore, it severely limits interactions between deities (like Corelleon and Gruumsh). Actually it is. You are a mortal until your DM grants you Divine Rank of 0 or greater. This is a message board, we have lots of time, please research and list them. I would love to read them. :rolleyes: Nice. However, it clearly would be a waste of time. In the end, this... discussion isn't going to solve anything and it's clear that neither side's going to budge. Which is fine. It's also fine that the mention of certain sites cause such a reaction, which suggests that their presence has been noted and their value and "threat" to the status quo has been recognized. The controversy is healthy (so long as it's not disruptive).
The Serge7 11-29-07, 07:32 PM	This is kind of a one shot game where my players get to resurrect their old 2ed characters, only I am letting them be brought back as rank 1 or 2 demi gods, with 30 levels. What I need help doing is planning an adventure around this. What should I throw at them? What kind of truly epic battles should I plan for? What would make a good challenge for characters of this type? I'd throw creatures that are not gods, but are resistant to SDAs as though they were gods (according to WotC rules). In other words, I'd go through the ELH and determine that certain entities, (other than the abominations if you adopt the option of treating them as though they possess DvR 0), receive a neutral rank check versus DvR assaults. This way, you can have real threats for your PCs. I'd also consider giving a stratified DvR check for divine creatures of different levels to encourage greater interaction and allow your PCs to actually challenge a lesser god. Depending on your approach, I would actually build them as their actual classes rather than the watered-down outsider HD approach WotC favors. Not only does this allow distinctions between different types of gods (the fighter god excels in fighting while the wizard god doesn't), it also allows for more faithful builds for the sake of differentiation between different gods. In this sense, DvR becomes more of a template to add to an existing character. Second, I would probably think about giving them bonuses to their ability scores. I'd probably give them a lump of 21 to 35 points to divvy up as they select for their ability scores, but wouldn't let them place more than 7 in each. As far as an actual adventure, the sky's the limit. One option would be a threat not against the world directly, but a divine infection that's killing off the worshippers of the established deities. If you allow lesser gods and greater to be dependant upon worshippers, this could be devastating if the gods can't determine the source of the attack (and there may not be a source). Have the PCs travel to the equivalent of the Norns/Fates to acquire information that will give them some ideas and possibly some conflicts. The resolution could be simple or it could be that an archfiend (suped up to be divine threats) is behind the contagion that would eventually kill the established gods. My biggest warning is that epic play can take a lot of time. Be prepared for this. Oh, and check out DF. ;) Good luck!
Starmage21 11-29-07, 07:37 PM	What's subjective about it? The statement that having lots of immunities that are impossible to circumvent makes combat boring. One person may feel one way, and another person may feel another. When I personally go up against such a force with lots of immunities, I do not give up and call it boring because its not easy to defeat using conventional methods. The framework, perhaps, but not the RAW. The RAW support the core material only and do not have anything to do directly with epic material. Where does the RAW say that dieties that meet the requirements can't persue epic classes, use epic feats, cast epic spells, or use any other epic material? Nowhere does it say that the 2 supplements are mutually exclusive, nor are there any mechanics that would make it so. *BIG EDIT* I had nearly forgotten, but the Forgotten Realms supplement Faiths and Pantheons uses the same Deities and Demigods framework in combination with epic material to stat out their powers. This explicitly implies that the BBEGs(Big Bad Editor Guys) at WotC see it this way as well. If the goal is to create a cohesive cosmology, this type of design does not allow for any meaningful interaction with between "mortals" (using the WotC definition) and divine entities. Furthermore, it severely limits interactions between deities (like Corelleon and Gruumsh). If by meaningful interaction you mean combat then yes there can be no "meaningful interaction" between mortals and the divine. D&D gods are not Xena/Hercules versions of the Greek Pantheon, and cannot be defeated by mortal men through normal or even epic means. Any successful attempt to defeat a god is going to be an act so legendary that the subject of said legends is likely to ascend to divinity himself when the deed is done.
Arvindur 11-29-07, 09:17 PM	The statement that having lots of immunities that are impossible to circumvent makes combat boring. One person may feel one way, and another person may feel another. When I personally go up against such a force with lots of immunities, I do not give up and call it boring because its not easy to defeat using conventional methods. Actually, those immunities essentially mean you can't use anything BUT conventional methods to battle a diety. Nothing besides hitting it until it runs out of hp works. Combat boils down to dishing out tonnes of damage and the ability to take it like a man.:) Edit: missed something totally awesome in the OP, succubus dervish roxxor.
Starmage21 11-30-07, 06:38 AM	Actually, those immunities essentially mean you can't use anything BUT conventional methods to battle a diety. Nothing besides hitting it until it runs out of hp works. Combat boils down to dishing out tonnes of damage and the ability to take it like a man.:) Edit: missed something totally awesome in the OP, succubus dervish roxxor. I would hope in any case that youre not just going toe to toe with a deity without some kind of DM granted ace in the hole anyway(like tricking the war diety youre about to duel with into temporarily giving up his divine powers as a test of his real skill). most magic still works on them. Fire and Sonic damage, even though theyre slightly resistant, Save or Die spells without the [death] descriptor work on them(earthquake, destruction)
The Serge7 11-30-07, 09:22 AM	The statement that having lots of immunities that are impossible to circumvent makes combat boring. One person may feel one way, and another person may feel another. When I personally go up against such a force with lots of immunities, I do not give up and call it boring because its not easy to defeat using conventional methods. It may not be boring, but it does severely constrain and limit interaction not just between gods and "mortals," but the gods themselves. And I'm not talking strictly about combat. The manner in which divine ranks are used in official WotC material all but eliminates even role-play based interaction between deities of slightly different ranks even if they're within the same strata (like Corelleon and Gruumsh). DF corrects this imbalance. Where does the RAW say that dieties that meet the requirements can't persue epic classes, use epic feats, cast epic spells, or use any other epic material? Nowhere does it say that the 2 supplements are mutually exclusive, nor are there any mechanics that would make it so. The point is that the RAW don't support the inclusion of epic material and, as written, many of the gods are mechanically substandard as a result. *BIG EDIT* I had nearly forgotten, but the Forgotten Realms supplement Faiths and Pantheons uses the same Deities and Demigods framework in combination with epic material to stat out their powers. This explicitly implies that the BBEGs(Big Bad Editor Guys) at WotC see it this way as well. Implies, but not outright supported. Two different things. If by meaningful interaction you mean combat then yes there can be no "meaningful interaction" between mortals and the divine. D&D gods are not Xena/Hercules versions of the Greek Pantheon, and cannot be defeated by mortal men through normal or even epic means. Since when? I think this is dependant upon edition and upon what one exposes oneself to. Even so, DF is not just concerned with mortal/divine interaction but interaction between the various deities. The RAW do not even support this despite the fact that they're based upon myths that highlight such interaction (not to mention that between mortals). If you don't agree with this approach, fine; however, if you just didn't understand it and decided to jump to conclusions, shame on you. In any event, I'm not interested in changing your mind regarding DF material. However, do not presume that suggestions to refer to supplemental material created by others is somehow detrimental. That's the last I have to say on the matter since I see no reason to continue derailing this thread.
Arvindur 11-30-07, 02:47 PM	I would hope in any case that youre not just going toe to toe with a deity without some kind of DM granted ace in the hole anyway(like tricking the war diety youre about to duel with into temporarily giving up his divine powers as a test of his real skill). most magic still works on them. Fire and Sonic damage, even though theyre slightly resistant, Save or Die spells without the [death] descriptor work on them(earthquake, destruction) I would imagine that having no way to lose(well, OP says the players are low tier gods...so yeah) against mortal foes except by DM fiat is going to be a little bit unsatisfying to most of the players, since mowing down mortals by the truckload gets dull after a few massacres. Particularly when gods a few ranks higher will obliterate the player gods handily, only a small amount of real challenges can be presented(deities of the same rank, mostly, probably enough to match the party 2-1 if you put them all together) . If unwilling to take the time and effort to modify or adapt the rules for divine play, an emphasis on more political play rather than direct conflict can serve to reduce the problems. After all, divine conflicts are famously destructive(in myth, if not statistically), not something that should occur regularly in a world that intends to stay intact. As to magic portion, I'm not quite sure how you intend to get spells besides direct damage through the divinely high ability scores, the universal good saves from 20 Outsider HD and the 'no natural 1' clause for deities. The SR is indeed pretty sad without SDA bolstering(then it becomes obscene), so it's a nonissue against anything besides trivial spellcasters. So unless heightened well above 9th level(epic magic, of course is notable for dealing with just about anything) or otherwise augmented, save or die effects can be considered trivial to a divinity. Finally, while you are trying your best to wear down the max HD + many HD + high Con via damage, a deity threatened in combat may teleport away to recover and return to kick rear unless care is taken to dimensionally anchor it. This largely derives from a quick look at the lower tiers that will be engaged in the OP's game, at higher tiers, more devastating SDAs, as well as even more immunities make it even messier. Being immune to dimension anchor as well as combat ending effects and possessing teleportation/planar travel at will must also be accounted for. No reason for most gods to hang around in a losing battle against a lower tier being, they'd get out of there in no time to regroup.
Wintermute_ 11-30-07, 05:41 PM	I would hope in any case that youre not just going toe to toe with a deity without some kind of DM granted ace in the hole anyway(like tricking the war diety youre about to duel with into temporarily giving up his divine powers as a test of his real skill). most magic still works on them. Fire and Sonic damage, even though theyre slightly resistant, Save or Die spells without the [death] descriptor work on them(earthquake, destruction) So, it's fine that gods have a gigantic host of immunities because you can just take them away via some DM-granted Deus Ex Machina? You do realize that's terrible, terrible reasoning, right?
Kayoz_Majick 12-05-07, 11:12 PM	geez, nothing like a post for people to rant about something... all the guy asked for was a litle help in the right direction, not which material is most valid. IMHO, to give a demigod a suitible challenge, you ought to give them what would be outrageously difficult challenges for any mortal of less than 50th level. As was stated early in the thread, a dungeon filled with traps of a truly epic deviousness that would require someone to be a demigod to manuever through it. design some type of outsider organization made of all CR 30+ creatures bent on destroying the PCs home planet or something along those lines :)
danelsan 12-08-07, 02:11 PM	Kratos from God of War has been to some quite epic dungeons...most of them with mechanisms that would require some STR 40 (50?) or more to work. I find the one in the back of the titan to be a particularly nice idea, and looks very epic with that absurd size. The Steeds of Time where also cool. And, of course, going melee against Ares and then Zeus is waaayy epic. Probably too much for your group of lower divine beings. But the God of War games can bring some inspiration anyway. Shadow of the Colossus too.