Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gemcaster 07-07-07, 08:10 AM	I was wondering, how would one -hypotheticaly- destroy the abyss? My take on the problem would be to starve it of it's major energy sources, such as by cutting off its ties to the material plane and the plane of chaos, thus de-stabilising the integrity of the abyss and creating a hostile environment for chaotic evil beings. Lesser demons would be severely affected (dead) at first, then the corruption would then start to rise through the ranks damaging more and more powerfull beings (eventually killing them) probably causing mass panic and (ironic) chaos. With the demon princes as the last to die the layer's of the abyss would eventually crumble from within due to the lack of a concious mind to hold it in place as well as the severe lack of energy and souls, though the whole process would take a while to kill everything in the abyss. This would probably take some seriously epic magic (several tens of thousands possibly rising to a couple hudreds of thousands) to cut off its links to chaos and the material plane as well as the simultanious banishing of every demon currently outside the of abyss. There is also the problem of what would happen to all the energies formed after its destruction and all the souls that were orriginaly destined for the abyss.
Grandmaster_Kane 07-07-07, 09:40 AM	Firstly you can destroy the abyss becuase it is limitless in it's levels You should destroy the 9hells because it is only 9 levels Also There are some baddies in both that you REALLY wouldnt want to tangle with Im talking Cr 80+ here
Elana 07-07-07, 11:04 AM	The same way as you can destroy all outer planes. Make sure that nobody beliefs in it's existance. (And that includes the demons) otherwise you would just destroy the abyss to get it replaced by an identical plane. Remember the outer planes are based on belief. (And shaped by it) And if you think that is impossible, how else would you destroy an infinite number of universes? (or even one universe for that matter)
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-07-07, 11:10 AM	Elana's sort of got it; if the people don't believe in the plane, it'll go away. However, that would involve wiping out trillions of sentient people (Including the complete population of Sigil), every outsider (Of which there are infinite of), and most gods. Even then, though, the planes do have some substance (Being the dreams of the draedens), and will still exist. The Abyss does not need connections to Limbo or the Prime to live. In a word, no.
bluemage55 07-07-07, 04:27 PM	You can't destroy it without unbalancing the multiverse, and thus bringing about the end of existence. Attempting to do so with a realistic chance of success will bring Demon Princes, Agents of the Balance, and overdeities down upon your soon-to-be-erased-from-existence head.
Sulacu 07-07-07, 05:41 PM	I really dislike the idea of belief holding planes together as do I don't like the belief that the power of gods is measured by belief. At first, there's a difference in belief and worship, and for one, the populace of Faerun, Greyhawk, etc, can be assured of the existence of deities as some of their magic is channeled through them and their actions resound through them. Power through belief is something for a monotheistic system, in my opinion.
Issabella 07-07-07, 06:38 PM	eliminate, convert, every single mortal of CE alignment. Stop giving that concept power. Granted it would involve the genocide of trillions, hoping to multiple crystal spheres, fighting every know and unknown horror,lord and prince in the abyss not to mention chaotic evil gods. Probably drawing in agents of balance who do not want to see the universe upset. But accomplish all that and the that remains is killing every one of the infinite numbers of demons in the abyss (or sealing it away so they can destroy each other)
Grandmaster_Kane 07-07-07, 06:39 PM	I really dislike the idea of belief holding planes together as do I don't like the belief that the power of gods is measured by belief. At first, there's a difference in belief and worship, and for one, the populace of Faerun, Greyhawk, etc, can be assured of the existence of deities as some of their magic is channeled through them and their actions resound through them. Power through belief is something for a monotheistic system, in my opinion. well until the time of troubles it wasnt. But now Ao has punished the god so that they actually HAVE to listens to there followers to maintain power.
Hochiu 07-07-07, 07:14 PM	Become the predominate consciousness in the Abyss, using your superior ability to push out the overdeities and demonlords that make it so, and set predetermined barriers for that realm. Infinite layers are that, infinite. There's no way any one being, be it mortal or divine, can fight against the armies of infinity unless one of two things happen: You become as much infinity as the Abyss or you change the rules in the Abyss to accept limitations in scope.
Thegans 07-08-07, 12:45 AM	How I would Destroy the Abyss. Step One. I would check the character optimization bored for every broken build that can give you infinite knowledge. Step Two. Sell the true names of every being in existence except myself to the highest bidder for magical power. Step Three. As an epic wizard whose level is probably around 127,543 I would prepare four spells. An epic elemental spell, an energy absorbtion spell, temporal stasis, and a contingency spell using the freedom spell. Step Four. Cast a contingent freedom spell on yourself that will activate latter Step Five. Teleport into the middle of the Elemental Plane of Air and cast the spell to rearrange the inner planes. Step Six. Cast the energy absorbtion spell and temporal stasis on my self. Step Seven. The inner planes violently obliterate each other and the energy attempts to flow into me. Step Eight. The prime material planes crumble into nothing as the elements destroyed each other. Step Nine. All magic drawing power from the elemental planes ceases to function and new souls are no longer creates as there is no more positive energy plane. Step Ten. The planes fight over the increasingly rarer souls and the violence become even more deadly. Step Eleven. The after math of the apocolypse destoys the outer planes as they have been depleted of there allignment energy. Step Twelve. Awaken from my time stop as the last being in existence and absorb the energy of the multiverse into my being Step Thirteen. Manifest my will upon the Far Realm as its new Lord and Master. Step Fourteen. Use my knowledge of the true names of every being in the Far Realm to shape a new reality to my will. Step Fifteen. Teleport into the newly created Abyss and absorb all of the energy in the plane causing its destruction. Step Sixteen. Declare Pandemonium the chaotic evil plane and move the Death Slaadi to Pandemonium. Step Seventeen. Continue restructuting the Outer Planes by merging Baator and Acheron. Step Eighteen. Recreate the Abyss again in the empty spaces I made after reconstructing my Outer Planes. Step Nineteen. Fine the demons I want to keep and then manifest my power upon the Abyss once again to tear it apart. Step Twenty. Go back in time and give my self the instructions so that I can start earlier than I originally planed. That is my twenty step plan to destroy the Abyss three times, gain ultimate power, and become lord and master of all reality. Alternatively you can stop at Step Twelve but your probably going to want to use your power on the Far Realm.
metatheurgist 07-11-07, 10:04 AM	According to FC1 the Abyss is the Primordial Chaos from which the multiverse came into existence, so destroying it would imply destroying everything. So you might want to reconsider :)
Thegans 07-11-07, 08:11 PM	According to FC1 the Abyss is the Primordial Chaos from which the multiverse came into existence, so destroying it would imply destroying everything. So you might want to reconsider :) Or you could just make that part of the plan.
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-11-07, 08:55 PM	According to FC1 the Abyss is the Primordial Chaos from which the multiverse came into existence, so destroying it would imply destroying everything. So you might want to reconsider :) What!? Bull. The multiverse is not CE. That can not be taken seriously.
bluemage55 07-13-07, 12:20 AM	What!? Bull. The multiverse is not CE. That can not be taken seriously. It's either a lie fabricated by demons, or the Abyss might not have always been CE.
Arturius1 07-14-07, 01:46 AM	You're better off leaving it be. The abyss existing keeps the devils busy, which keep the demons busy. The moment one of them stop existing, the survivor will come after the rest of the multiverse.
V1zharan 07-14-07, 02:48 AM	unbelievably high level castings of apocalypse from the sky? 1d6 per caster level and 1 mile radius per caster level, get into the hundreds of thousands, get a bunch of people of the same level to cast it as well and you might have half a shot ~V1zharan~
Shemeska the Marauder 07-15-07, 10:37 PM	It's either a lie fabricated by demons, or the Abyss might not have always been CE. It was an in-character statement by a very misinformed mortal sage named Tulket nor Ahm. The Abyss was predated by a primordial plane of Chaos (proto-Limbo if you will), and a primordial plane of Evil (a proto-Waste if you will), the "pure" alignments NE/NG/LN/CN/N formed before the "mixed" alignments. Initially those first planes had no contact, but eventually their metaphysical essence began to mingle. At some point Carceri first sprang into existance when Apomps the Triple Aspected was forced into exile by his kindred baernaloths, taking his newly created demodand servants with him. Some time after that, the Obyriths were created by the baernaloths (and the General of Gehenna) and sent into the Abyss (the Abyss either formed as a result of that, budding up around them as Carceri had formed around Apomps, or the plane might have formed already as the raw metaphysical forces welling up from Limbo and the Waste corrupted one anothers' essence).
Shemeska the Marauder 07-15-07, 10:44 PM	As for the OP's question, you would have to eradicate every CE mortal in the multiverse, literally extinguishing the flow of CE flows that flood into the Abyss. Then you'd have to eradicate the knowledge and fear of CE actions from the minds of every living thing on the prime, and probably the inner planes as well. Do all of that, and you'll extinguish the tanar'ri. You'll snuff them out forever. But... The Abyss and Chaotic Evil as a raw force predates mortal life, predates gods, and predates the prime material itself. It's only one step above the bedrock nature of the outer planes (the "pure" alignments being the most primal), and it exists regardless of whether you care to believe in it or acknowledge it, and it's not going to watch itself lose a source of power quietly. Nor will the Rilmani (TN outsiders) wish that to happen, imbalancing the multiverse in their eyes, nor will the Eladrin want the Abyss destroyed unless one of the lawful planes were to be destroyed as well. And the gods making their homes in the Abyss wouldn't want to relocate either, so you'd have to contend with them as well. Impossible unless you rewrite the basic structure of reality, eliminating either Chaos as a concept, or eliminating Evil as a concept, and I'll leave you to decide how to do that. And if you seek to do that by violence, well... the Abyss will be staring right back at you as you look at it.
Gryllmyre 07-15-07, 10:54 PM	I'm of the opinion that the 9 alignments exist only because of the juxtaposition of all the others. If you destroy all CE, you might succeed for a time, but it's a behavioral certainty that others will eventually move to fill the gaps and enliven CE again. It stands to reason that abyssal demiplanes would continue to form and stabilize or collapse, as I imagine they do the way things are. Of course, if any Wizards book officially states WHY alignments exist, I'd probably ignore it in favor of a system where alignments seek balance (even though those that practice them do not, at least within their conscious decisions). I remember someone telling me that in the 2e game, even in the Seven Heavens, angels would pursue holy wars against each other to promote specific takes on Lawful Goodness, which to me suggests that within a closed system of any type, all 9 alignments would eventually surface, even though if a demon army stormed heaven's gates, all angels would unquestionably unite against them.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-15-07, 11:06 PM	I remember someone telling me that in the 2e game, even in the Seven Heavens, angels would pursue holy wars against each other to promote specific takes on Lawful Goodness, Sort of. Aasimon (angels) might be good aligned, but they aren't physical manifestations of Good. As direct creations of deities (unlike the Archons/Guardinals/Eladrin), their loyalty is to the will of their patron gods, and serving their gods at times will involve warring against the servants of other gods, and even other good gods. The reasons for such conflict are many and varied, but it happens, sometimes with spectacular bloodshed.
Angus Cotton 07-16-07, 01:00 AM	How I would Destroy the Abyss. Step One....Step Twenty, [et al.] You know, that...just...might...work. I bet the original poster did not expect such a simple and easy solution only 9 post down. I'll have to try this in my Grandpa's basement tonight after everyone goes to bed.
rob_douglas 07-16-07, 05:24 PM	I think the planes existence are much like the concept of the the big bang and what the universe was like before then - the Grand Unification Theory, etc. of our universe. Basically in the beginning was one thing - something/nothing. It broke out into ordered and unordered bits (law and chaos). As time wore on, beings of these forces formed, sentient instantiations bent on trying to manipulate the other force. They are in many ways flawed exemplars of the baser elements of law and chaos. In time, they came to be fractured, good and evil. only the existence of the sentients could create a definition of good and evil, which deals with how sentients treat each other. As we have seen now, those interactions have formed 9 alignments, and intermediate planes that form the boundaries between alignments. But in essence, all the planes came from one primordial soup. The abyss cannot be destroyed because it is a) infinite and b) filling the gap in sentient philosophy between Pandemonium and Hades. To truly remove it would require reunifying the multiverse. This would probably require collapsing it backwards from where it ended, which would mean destroying all the material planes first. This is the goal of Entropy (and in my campaign Tharizdun, who is the same thing, though canonically he is only evil and quite separate from Entropy....). ROB
Thegans 07-16-07, 05:48 PM	You know, that...just...might...work. I bet the original poster did not expect such a simple and easy solution only 9 post down. I'll have to try this in my Grandpa's basement tonight after everyone goes to bed. Well good like and I think it was called the omni something that gives you infinite knowledge. If your a kobold you can also use one of the lower level Pun Pun builds.
BillTheManiac 07-16-07, 07:12 PM	omniscifier. Problem is cheese+DM fiat is not allowed. You can use truename knowledge to shape the universe as long as the DM allows you, which he/she will not if you omniscified up that knowledge.
Angus Cotton 07-17-07, 12:27 AM	Well good like and I think it was called the omni something that gives you infinite knowledge. If your a kobold you can also use one of the lower level Pun Pun builds. er..what? I was gonna use a cheese grater and some duct tape. Try all 20 steps and see how far I get. Afterwards, I might try doing something with my DnD books if I get bored.
Thegans 07-17-07, 09:53 PM	omniscifier. Problem is cheese+DM fiat is not allowed. You can use truename knowledge to shape the universe as long as the DM allows you, which he/she will not if you omniscified up that knowledge. I could be wrong since I don't have that book but couldent you in theory simply have the omniscifier find every truespeaker and simply convince them to teach everyting they know about it to becaome fluent in truenaming. Besides you need either a broken build or the power to cast Vengeful Gaze of the God, which apparently three greater gods working together are just barely able to cast, to have any hope of destroying the abyss.
BillTheManiac 07-18-07, 09:26 AM	The elemental planes are infinite. Therefore you need infinite gold, infinite XP, and infinite Spellcraft. Spellcraft: easy Gold: Profession check while banging head against wall - dunking head in water every round. XP: ???
kab 07-19-07, 07:18 AM	The elemental planes are infinite. Therefore you need infinite gold, infinite XP, and infinite Spellcraft. Spellcraft: easy Gold: Profession check while banging head against wall - dunking head in water every round. XP: ??? if the planes are infinite, surely they contain an infinite number of creatures as well infinite creatures = infinite kills = infinite xp but how do we get infinite kills? an epic spell, of course: Infinitely Killing Kill-blast of Infinite Killing Infinity Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 103 + ( 4 * ∞ ) Components: - Casting Time: 1 free action Range: ∞ ft Area: ∞-ft radius burst Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: ∞ gp; ∞ days; ∞ XP. Seed: Destroy (DC 29). Factors: Quickened spell (+28 DC), No verbal component (+2 DC), No somatic component (+2 DC), Increase range ∞% (+∞ DC), Change area to 20-ft radius (+2 DC), Increase area ∞% (+∞ DC), increase saving throw dc by +∞ (+∞ DC), gain +∞ to overcome spell resistance (+∞ DC), increase damage die 4 steps (+40 DC) The caster specifies any point on the same plane, and that point erupts in a burst of infinite destruction, dealing ∞d20 points of damage to all targets in an ∞ ft radius burst. An affected target can make a fortitude save (DC ∞) for half damage. The caster gains a +∞ bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance small problem; we also need infinite time. unless we can munchkin ourselves a solution to that obviously the nature of infinity makes things a problem here edit: the character started with the spell, of course ^_^
BillTheManiac 07-19-07, 09:33 PM	I'm sure you're DM will allow you to gain that spell. And cast it. What's the point of truename cheese if you're omni/Pun-Pun? Pun-Pun can RESEARCH Infinitely Killing Kill-blast of Infinite Killing Infinity. In 1 round. (It's not that hard if your DM allows the custom SDAs from the Iron Siege). And then CAST it. Destroying the multiverse. He doesn't have to do some crazy elemental conjunction thing..
Flymolo 07-20-07, 11:43 PM	What custom SDA from the Iron Siege allowed that?
BillTheManiac 07-21-07, 03:37 PM	What custom SDA from the Iron Siege allowed that? IIRC you could get a 100% reduction in gold/XP/time costs for spells. The hard part would be casting it. You need 21 DvR to get it though, but that isn't hard.
ihatenuma 07-25-07, 08:32 PM	It's easier to conquer it.
Oreot 07-26-07, 11:19 AM	Well, this is kinda a stupid idea form something I kinda remember reading but here goes. :P The living layer of the abyss (accessed through the demonweb pits) is believed by some to be the insides of a living worm whose body makes up the layers of the abyss. Lloth supposedly speaks to it although its existence is unknown to most. Damaging or killing the worm could have a major impact on the abyss. This is all in theory because how one damages such a being or even the nature of it...well whatever, I just remember reading that somewhere. I think in the Feindish codex section on the demonweb pits. Could be worth a shot. Cheers.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-26-07, 01:44 PM	Well, this is kinda a stupid idea form something I kinda remember reading but here goes. :P The living layer of the abyss (accessed through the demonweb pits) is believed by some to be the insides of a living worm whose body makes up the layers of the abyss. It's one layer of the Abyss, not all of it. The creature was a slumbering draeden (either from a previous incarnation of the multiverse, or another multiverse entirely) that during the formation of the Abyss was trapped by the intruding alien (to it) reality.
Oreot 07-26-07, 01:58 PM	It's one layer of the Abyss, not all of it. The creature was a slumbering draeden (either from a previous incarnation of the multiverse, or another multiverse entirely) that during the formation of the Abyss was trapped by the intruding alien (to it) reality. Fair enough! I am at work so I couldn't really go back and read it. For some reason I thought its body made up the abyss. Ah well, it was worth a shot. ;)