Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Horus_Sungod 03-31-08, 10:50 AM	I just can't find any way to kill a colossus, because of it's high AC, immunity to magic and 100ft ANTIMAGIC field around it... The ONLY thing i can see is being about level 35 and throw intensified twinned orbs of force at it from a distance of 105ft, a tactic which is hard to accomplish when fighting a CR24 flesh colossus. (Only deities and artifacts can still operate in the field, and those are DM-given events/items, so they are right out) Man, this is like the swarm shifting demilich....
Kain_Darkwind 03-31-08, 11:11 AM	Well, from the mouth of someone whose opinions I respect over on Dicefreaks... The epic spell every party pools their wealth to get at 21st-level: Anti-Magic Ward Abjuration Spellcraft DC: 14 Components: V, S, Ritual Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Touch Area: 20 ft. radius Duration: 24 hours Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 126,000 gp; 3 days; 5,040 XP. Seed: ward (DC 14). Factors: change from target to 20 ft. radius (+10 DC), specific protection antimagic field (+10 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 9 minutes (–18 DC), one additional caster contributing a 2nd-level spell slot (–3 DC). All creatures and objects within the spell radius become immune to antimagic field for its duration. This is a ritual spell requiring one other spellcasters, who must contribute an unused 2nd-level slot to the casting. He also suggested long range mundane attacks. While arrows will work if you are using the 3.5 version with DR 10, I suggest catapults and other siege weapons with a long range and high base damage.
Wintermute_ 03-31-08, 12:47 PM	He also suggested long range mundane attacks. While arrows will work if you are using the 3.5 version with DR 10, I suggest catapults and other siege weapons with a long range and high base damage. For a possibly easier-to-use variation on this, you could use some form of telekinesis to fling ballista bolts/colossal weapons/huge rocks/whatever at the Colossus.
kreesteeyan 03-31-08, 01:55 PM	I just can't find any way to kill a colossus, because of it's high AC, immunity to magic and 100ft ANTIMAGIC field around it... The ONLY thing i can see is being about level 35 and throw intensified twinned orbs of force at it from a distance of 105ft, a tactic which is hard to accomplish when fighting a CR24 flesh colossus. (Only deities and artifacts can still operate in the field, and those are DM-given events/items, so they are right out) Man, this is like the swarm shifting demilich.... My sorcerer killed a stone colossus with melf's acid arrow.
aelryinth 03-31-08, 05:03 PM	Epic ALchemy. Throw super-concentrated acid at it. Ten flasks of normal acid is 10d6 max (equal to immersion). With Epic, this can be 20d6, 30d6, etc, per round. Eventually, you'll melt it to a pile of goo. No magic required, and you can drop the stuff onto it from up above and out of its reach. ORb spells and other conjuration effects work, too. Also note that a wall of force will block the AM Shell's emnation if needed. Epic magic to get thru/suppress the AM shell will probably force a caster level check, but is another way to look at the problem. ==Aelryinth
Horus_Sungod 03-31-08, 10:17 PM	Nice stuff there. The anti-antimagic field is especially nice. With that, the warblade can just charge this badboy with all his shock trooper cheese and take another round with white raven tactics (without forgetting his Abjurant Champion levels that grant Wraithstrike) :mrt: It should go down in one round. Thanks y'all
Tshern 04-01-08, 02:15 PM	Walls of Stone+Telekineses+Shrink object.
DoveArrow 04-04-08, 06:50 PM	I think Wintermute's signature provides a good suggestion. "I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Here's a question, though... how can you bypass DR 10/Epic and adamantine if an epic weapon loses all of its magical properties in an antimagic field?
runestar 04-04-08, 10:34 PM	Dr/epic should be suppressed in an AMF, assuming it follows the same rules as dr/magic (which is similarly lost).
Bauglir 04-05-08, 12:35 PM	Except the Colossus is specifically exempt from its antimagic field (not its square, mind you, just it), meaning that you CAN'T bypass its damage reduction without that Antimagic Ward spell or something similar. Or casting your own Antimagic field, come to think of it.
DoveArrow 04-07-08, 02:49 PM	What about Mordenkainen's disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm)? Assuming that you are able to break the antimagic field with this spell, that should work, shouldn't it?
Kain_Darkwind 04-08-08, 02:31 AM	What about Mordenkainen's disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm)? Assuming that you are able to break the antimagic field with this spell, that should work, shouldn't it? I don't think so. It is an extraordinary ability that states it is "impervious to spells, spell-like effects and supernatural abilities." MDJ doesn't work on extraordinary abilities and it certainly counts as a spell. It might even ignore that antimagic ward I posted earlier.
WombleHunter 04-08-08, 10:59 AM	Surely, at levels where a Collossus is relevant, nobody cares about DR 10?
Kain_Darkwind 04-08-08, 11:24 AM	Surely, at levels where a Collossus is relevant, nobody cares about DR 10? Of course not. But the antimagic field also takes out much of the melee character's damage dealing potential by turning off his magical weapons and magically enhanced strength. Also lowering his ability to hit, which in turn prevents him from using power attack. The colossus itself is immune to magic apart from its antimagic field, and while one could update it to be in line with the golem's 'magic that includes SR', is wasn't updated in that manner and one cannot expect to automatically assume that it was meant to be. All characters will lose out on large amounts of their immunities and defenses, rendering them more easily killed. The +6 Amulet of Health alone provides at least 60 hit points in epic level, and 99 at iron colossus level. Essentially, the DR isn't really a game breaker here. If you lack the ability to get around the antimagic field, you are missing much more than the capability to penetrate DR 10 (or DR 20/epic and adamantine, in the iron colossus' case).
Tshern 04-08-08, 12:02 PM	It's touch AC is 0. That is to say, Deep impact would work wonders here along with some serious Power attack modifiers. However, taking on a Colossus blow by blow definitely isn't the smartest thing to do. For anyone willing to do that, I just figured out some things to consider: 1. Iron Heart Surge, 2. Pounce, 3. Way to land touch attack, 4. A lot of Power attack boosting feats and features. When the AMF is of, it's all easy. Standard issue Stormguard Warrior+Avalanche of Blades combo using touch attacks ought to do it.
Kain_Darkwind 04-08-08, 02:02 PM	It's touch AC is 0. That is to say, Deep impact would work wonders here along with some serious Power attack modifiers. However, taking on a Colossus blow by blow definitely isn't the smartest thing to do. For anyone willing to do that, I just figured out some things to consider: 1. Iron Heart Surge, 2. Pounce, 3. Way to land touch attack, 4. A lot of Power attack boosting feats and features. When the AMF is of, it's all easy. Standard issue Stormguard Warrior+Avalanche of Blades combo using touch attacks ought to do it. Deep impact is a psionic feat and just as suppressed in an AMF as wraithstrike would be. Most tactics boil down to whether or not you are immune to the AMF or you aren't.
Tshern 04-08-08, 02:26 PM	They do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed, such as a null psionics field. Leaving such an area immediately allows psionic feats to be used. As per RAW, they do work, but using SR/PR transparency cancels them.
DoveArrow 04-08-08, 02:42 PM	I don't think so. It is an extraordinary ability that states it is "impervious to spells, spell-like effects and supernatural abilities." MDJ doesn't work on extraordinary abilities and it certainly counts as a spell. It might even ignore that antimagic ward I posted earlier. It actually says it's impervious to most spells, etc., and that it otherwise functions like antimagic field. The only thing I would worry about is that the colossus is immune to magic, so would mordenkainen's disjunction even work against it's antimagic field? After all, the antimagic field isn't technically a part of the colossus. I don't know... I'm honestly starting to think that someone simply forgot to playtest this sucker.
Kain_Darkwind 04-08-08, 06:14 PM	As per RAW, they do work, but using SR/PR transparency cancels them. The default ruleset, you mean? That's RAW too, you know. RAW, they don't work. The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. I'm honestly starting to think that someone simply forgot to playtest this sucker. I'd be shocked, shocked, to learn that the epic level rules weren't playtested and given the same attention and care that the rest of the game was. As far as being impervious to most spells, it doesn't mention which ones it isn't impervious to. But MDJ doesn't work against extraordinary abilities, that much is relatively clear. Things that function against magic and spells aren't going to definitely work against an extraordinary magic dampening field.
DoveArrow 04-09-08, 10:31 AM	As far as being impervious to most spells, it doesn't mention which ones it isn't impervious to. But MDJ doesn't work against extraordinary abilities, that much is relatively clear. Things that function against magic and spells aren't going to definitely work against an extraordinary magic dampening field. :OMG! Why is that... what makes... who decided... FOR THE LOVE OF BOB, HOW IS THAT NOT A SUPERNATURAL ABILITY?!!!?! Seriously, it functions almost exactly like a spell! In fact, it says right in the ability description "This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster." That's a supernatural ability if I ever saw one! That does it. No more messing around. This creature needs an overhaul, because it's just stupid. Here's a new stat block, using the stone colossus as an example, that at least makes some sense. STONE COLOSSUS Size/Type: Colossal Construct Hit Dice: 64d10+80 (432 hp) Initiative: -3 (Dex) Speed: 40 ft. (can't run) Armor Class: 44 (-8 size, -3 Dex, +45 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+94 Attack: Slam +70 melee (8d6+30) Full Attack 2 slams +70 melee (8d6+30) Space/Reach: 30 ft./ 30 ft. Special Attacks: Shatter Special Qualities: Construct traits, magic immunity, antimagic field, DR 10/adamantine Saves: Fort +21, Ref +18, Will +21 Abilities: Str 70, Dex 5, Con -, Int -(unless you really feel like adding 22 feats and a whole mess of skills to this thing. Personally, I don't), Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: Jump +34 [[0, +30 Str, +4 Spd bonus]] Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 24 Treasure: None Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: 65-192 HD (Colossal) Magic Immunity (Ex) A stone colossus is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. A transmute rock to mud spell slows it (as the slow spell) for 1 round, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all its lost hit points. A stone to flesh spell has no effect on a stone colossus. Antimagic Field (Su) A stone colossus constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the stone colossus’s own supernatural abilities. A mordenkainen's disjunction spell has the potential to disrupt a stone colossus's antimagic field for a period of 10 rounds (see spell description). This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster. Shatter (Su) A stone colossus can use shatter (DC 37) as a free action once every 2 rounds against an opponent’s weapon or other item as a 24th-level caster. The DC is Charisma-based. "A stone colossus’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." (Like it even needed it in the first place. It does 8d6+30 points of damage, for crying out loud! Plus, how many players do you know that have DR/epic at 24th level?) There. Still tough as nails, but at least your players won't feel like they showed up to the ball naked.
kreesteeyan 04-09-08, 01:11 PM	Couldn't you just wish the antimagic field away?
DoveArrow 04-09-08, 05:01 PM	Couldn't you just wish the antimagic field away? I guess so, if you word it carefully, and your DM would allow it, but why should you have to expend experience to kill a monster? Isn't the whole idea of killing monsters to gain XP?
Kain_Darkwind 04-09-08, 05:41 PM	I guess so, if you word it carefully, and your DM would allow it, but why should you have to expend experience to kill a monster? Isn't the whole idea of killing monsters to gain XP? Tell it ta da tarrasque, sista! I jus' enfoice da law round dese pats.
DoveArrow 04-09-08, 06:11 PM	Tell it ta da tarrasque, sista! I jus' enfoice da law round dese pats. I will, mister! Now tell me where I can find this tarrasque. I want to give it a piece of my mind.
Edymnion 04-09-08, 09:23 PM	Don't bother wishing the AMF away. If a Wish can touch it, just wish it away to the bottom of the ocean. 1) You've removed the threat. You don't have to kill something to win the encounter, you just have to make it where it can no longer hurt you or carry out it's goals. 2) If you just really want it destroyed, it will still take damage every round from the pressure. And unlike falling, there is no damage cap on pressure. It deals 1d6 damage per minute per 100 feet. Average real world ocean depth is 12,200 feet. That means the thing will take 122d6 damage per minute. The damage is all done at once, so DR 10 means nothing. Antimagic means nothing. Average damage of 122d6? 427 points. Which means, on average, the colossus will have a little over 60 seconds before it is crushed. Or, if you just really want it to die instantly, wish it to the deepest part of the ocean. The real world Marianas Trench is 36,200 feet deep. Thats 362d6 damage per minute, or an average of 1,267 damage per minute. Pretty much instant death.
TheCobra 04-10-08, 12:07 AM	If the colossus is in the open, it's simple. Call in a ghaele. Wait two or three minutes. No more colossus. With planar ally, the colossus dies for 5,000 gp and 250 XP.
Krevon 04-10-08, 01:59 AM	I will, mister! Now tell me where I can find this tarrasque. I want to give it a piece of my mind. It's in the trunk of other dimensions on my wifes car. She thinks its cute!
PhaedrusXY 04-10-08, 02:52 AM	Shrink Item + lots of boulders and a Fly spell (and maybe Telekinesis)? Seriously, it's a golem. Unless it is inside some cavern you have to pass through and can't bypass, why is this even a threat at epic levels? Just wave at it as you fly by and ignore it.
Kain_Darkwind 04-10-08, 09:07 AM	Shrink Item + lots of boulders and a Fly spell (and maybe Telekinesis)? Seriously, it's a golem. Unless it is inside some cavern you have to pass through and can't bypass, why is this even a threat at epic levels? Just wave at it as you fly by and ignore it. Perhaps the amoral adventuring parties you associate with care nothing for the lives of others. Or perhaps your idea of 'adventure' is looking to force the DM to ram combats and encounters down your throat in a manner from which you cannot escape. However, it isn't that way in all games. Sometimes the colossus might be going to step on a village, to provide a basic and incredibly simplistic scenario where a party of heroes might decide to take action other than flying away. Others might just feel like taking the DM's bait and engaging an encounter she obviously took time to set up for them. Cause they play, you know, adventurers? People who are thrill seekers and treasure takers?
Horus_Sungod 04-10-08, 01:38 PM	You could wish a huge (like, immense) shirt that costs 25k of cheap fabric. It weighs 12 million pounds for about 64k falling damage (or 64kd6). Cheap in XP if you use a though bottle.
Wintermute_ 04-10-08, 04:10 PM	You could wish a huge (like, immense) shirt that costs 25k of cheap fabric. It weighs 12 million pounds for about 64k falling damage (or 64kd6). Cheap in XP if you use a though bottle. Wait, let's take this shirt idea in a different direction. Instead of being crude and dropping a multi-million pound heap of cloth on the golem, what if we dress the golem in the giant shirt? The shirt would block line of effect from the golem's anti-magic field, letting you beat down on it in the manner of your choice.
PhaedrusXY 04-10-08, 05:35 PM	Perhaps the amoral adventuring parties you associate with care nothing for the lives of others. Or perhaps your idea of 'adventure' is looking to force the DM to ram combats and encounters down your throat in a manner from which you cannot escape. However, it isn't that way in all games. Sometimes the colossus might be going to step on a village, to provide a basic and incredibly simplistic scenario where a party of heroes might decide to take action other than flying away. Others might just feel like taking the DM's bait and engaging an encounter she obviously took time to set up for them. Cause they play, you know, adventurers? People who are thrill seekers and treasure takers?My point is that it's big, slow, and mindless. And that there are plenty of creative things you can do with magic, even to something that is inside a large Antimagic Field, especially when you're an epic level adventurer. I don't see these things as particularly difficult to deal with. For example: Gate in a Hagunemnon. It has regeneration 50 and can take the Extraordinary abilities of anything as an Extraordinary ability. Have it turn into a collossal gelatinous cube, with the weapon immunity of a swarm, and engulf the golem, dissolving it with its acid.
NoldorForce 04-10-08, 06:15 PM	For example: Gate in a Hagunemnon. It has regeneration 50 and can take the Extraordinary abilities of anything as an Extraordinary ability. Have it turn into a collossal gelatinous cube, with the weapon immunity of a swarm, and engulf the golem, dissolving it with its acid.Keep in mind that swarms generally get their immunity to weapon damage as an untyped trait of the swarm subtype, not as an extraordinary ability. Still, you could instead order your pet to grab the tatterdemalion's immunity to bludgeoning damage. (The ocean giant, also in MM2, has an identical ability.)
Kain_Darkwind 04-11-08, 10:51 AM	Is the protean under your absolute control? The description of the creature seems to suggest they can barely hold on to consistent forms for their own purposes, let alone those of a summoner. Then there is the whole issue of having the ability to summon/call creatures of a higher CR than yourself via gate, which might not be allowed in some games, regardless of the RAW. But confronting the colossus is not flying past it, so it is still a better solution.
Omen_of_Peace 04-11-08, 08:13 PM	Perhaps the amoral adventuring parties you associate with care nothing for the lives of others. Or perhaps your idea of 'adventure' is looking to force the DM to ram combats and encounters down your throat in a manner from which you cannot escape. However, it isn't that way in all games. Sometimes the colossus might be going to step on a village, to provide a basic and incredibly simplistic scenario where a party of heroes might decide to take action other than flying away. Others might just feel like taking the DM's bait and engaging an encounter she obviously took time to set up for them. Cause they play, you know, adventurers? People who are thrill seekers and treasure takers? I see what you mean, but in some cases shouldn't the adventurers avoid danger ? Most of the good DMs I played with had encounters that were very hard or impossible for us to overcome, to avoid the "we're heroes - let's fight it because we can't lose" mentality. "Live and fight another day" is a valid answer too. Depending on the circumstances, you may have to fight it, or you may want to bypass it - let's not be one-sided.
Charade 04-12-08, 01:10 AM	Good suggestions, gang, but since the epic Binder came out the colosus have no chance. The Binder merely summons a Sphere of annihilation and the statue is as doomed as Dane Cook's carer.
Kain_Darkwind 04-12-08, 01:59 AM	Good suggestions, gang, but since the epic Binder came out the colosus have no chance. The Binder merely summons a Sphere of annihilation and the statue is as doomed as Dane Cook's carer. Unless of course...no one is playing a binder.
DoveArrow 04-14-08, 10:25 AM	Seriously, it's a golem. Unless it is inside some cavern you have to pass through and can't bypass, why is this even a threat at epic levels? Just wave at it as you fly by and ignore it. Actually, the reason I got into this conversation is because I'm writing an adventure that includes a stone colossus in an underground temple. Had this thread not come up, I doubt very seriously that I would have given the issue of damaging the creature very much thought, because I'm not used to thinking about how things work in an antimagic field. In any event, the method you describe wouldn't work for my group, because they can't just fly over it, and there are no rocks around for them to drop.
Roivas 04-16-08, 02:50 AM	Would you be able to defeat the creature by luring it into another plane by creating a permanent planar rip? If so create an epic spell that rips a hole in reality large enough for the creature to pass through to a less populated plane, or the elemental plane of fire, and have the monk[or]barbarian lure it in there. Problem solved and without combat.
Asra 04-16-08, 07:23 AM	Well, the best(not simplest) solution is to have your team's necromancer inhabit a flesh colossus and then have an epic battle to the finish ala Godzilla. Though your necromancer probably lacks the necessary feats and skills to be capable of actually going toe-to-toe with them, he'll probably have an insignificantly higher amount of HP from his class levels, and an actual int skill for strategy... Though I imagine, if the other PCs must take part in the battle, the Flesh Colossus could use them as darts or something.