Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pitiless_Interfector 02-26-07, 09:00 PM	I have much to tell you about new uses for the spell extract gift. For those of you who don't have Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, I will reiterate the key facts here: Extract Gift Necromancy [Chaotic] (and [Evil] if you boost the save DC) Level: Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, M, XP Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Close Target: One demon and one willing creature Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Will negates, see text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell lets you channel the essence of a demon into another creature, bestowing an enhancement bonus to either an ability score or on all checks with a specific skill. The Will save is for the demon; a successful save ruins the spell. Since the spell doesn't mention any deleterious effects on the demon, I don't see why they would try to save, unless they didn't like you or they wanted to extort influence over you. (You can boost the DC by adding the Evil descriptor to the spell and allowing the demon to track you, as per the status spell, see through your eyes and ears, communicate with you telepathically as Rary's telepathic bond (which doesn't work across planes, and thus seems like it shouldn't be an issue if you're just draining a called creature), and use demand on you once per day. They don't all have to be taken, you can boost the DC by 1 for just the status, or all the way to +7 with demand). The spell has caveats: To grant an ability bonus, the demon's ability modifier must be equal to or greater than twice the bonus, so to get a +4 Str bonus, you need a creature with 26 Str. To get a skill bonus, the demon's ranks must be at least twice the bonus. So, for a +5 on Intimidate, you need a creature with 7 HD and max ranks in Intimidate. Other than that, it really isn't any different from a magic item, except for the uncertainties: You need to find an appropriate demon and convince them to aid you (or imprison them magically and hope they fail the Will save). If you don't, you'll need to accept significant drawbacks to boost the DC, such as allowing them to know where you are at all times, use your eyes and ears as their own, communicate with you telepathically, and, in extreme cases, give you a suggestion once per day. Also, a single dispel magic effect can undo all your work in an instant (a pitfall shared by that other vaunted "magic items on the quick" spell: permanency). Also, extract gift costs just as much as crafting the magic item (a +4 Str would cost 16,000 gp and 640 XP), and it will all be wasted by a successful Will save. However, there is a solution for this: Tenacious Magic and Ignore Material Components. Tenacious Magic allows you to select a single spell and make it immune to dispelling (a successful dispel only suppresses it fort 1d4 rounds, as if it were a magic item). Ignore Material Components allows you to cast spells without material components, regardless of price. The XP cost of extract gift is based directly on the gp cost of the materials. So, technically, if there are no materials, then there is no XP cost. So, if Tenacious Magic makes it just as durable as a magic item, and Ignore Material Components makes it as cheap as a regular spell, does this mean you can get magic items absolutely free, with no strings attached? And they don't even take up a body slot! Isn't this unbalancing? In short, no. Tenacious Magic and Ignore Material Components are epic feats, and you can't get both until 23rd level. Furthermore, they don't increase the Will save, so you'll still have to cope with intrusive demonic control. And lastly, the spell description states that the maximum ability bonus is +5, and the maximum skill bonus is +10. At 23rd level, these are hardly optimal. However, characters of 6-10th level are common as flies (at least in major urban areas). As an example, let's suppose you set up shop and started selling your ‘gifts’ for 1/3rd the price of a normal item (and 1/6th the price of an unslotted item). You would offer +5 enhancement bonuses to ability scores that can never be stolen or taken away, or removed short of Mordenkainen’s disjunction, which can be acquired with a mere 1 hour of work and 8,000 gp. (A normal +5 ioun stone would take an artificer 37,500 gp and 4 days, with Efficient Item Creation, and all the Artisan feats). No sane adventurer would wish to be without them, and their rock-bottom price would make them available to adventurers as low as 6th level. With 8 5th-level spell slots (easily available through items and ability score bonus spells), you can make 64,000 gp in a single 8-hour business day, or 320,000 gp per 5-day week. Business won’t always be this good, but you can easily assume a profit of 100,000 gp per week, even allowing for operating expenses. At a bare minimum, you’ll earn 8 million gp per year. The only flaws in this business plan are the fact that it is solely reliant on you; only you can use extract gift to create free magic items. Others can’t help, other than in clerical functions, or by helping to corral the demons. Which leads to the other big flaw: If anyone finds out that you’re using demons to power your magic (especially if you need to use the DC boosts to provide the higher-level bonuses), you are screwed. Of course, you could always find other 23rd-level casters and use the feat and spell retraining options to teach them the tools of your trade. If you relocate to Union, you could easily find others who could learn your secrets. If getting your hands on a powerful-enough demon is a problem, you could always take levels in Thaumaturgist (using Arcane Disciple [Summoner] to qualify if necessary) and use your planar cohort to provide the gifts. And lastly, the spell never specifies that a human must cast it; you could play a succubus Dread Necromancer 10/Malconvoker 2 (using advanced learning and Arcane Disciple [Summoner] to get extract gift and summon monster III) and power the gifts yourself (and gaining the ability to track the location of every customer, seeing through their eyes and ears, contacting them telepathically, and using demand on them once per day).
dok 02-26-07, 09:34 PM	The XP cost of extract gift is based directly on the gp cost of the materials. So, technically, if there are no materials, then there is no XP cost. Sorry, no. If the spell says you must pay X in gp, and X/10 in experience points, then Ignore Material Components won't save you the XP cost. It lets you "cast spells without any material components". It does not let say "the material components are now 0 gp in cost to you". So you don't have to pay X in gold pieces, but since X is still not zero, you must pay the XP.
Pitiless_Interfector 02-26-07, 10:56 PM	Sorry, no. If the spell says you must pay X in gp, and X/25 in experience points, then Ignore Material Components won't save you the XP cost. It lets you "cast spells without any material components". It does not say "the material components are now 0 gp in cost to you". So you don't have to pay X in gold pieces, but since X is still not zero, you must pay the XP. Four words: Rod of excellent magic. It can subsidize the extraction of a gift of up to 50,000 gp cost (or 100,000 gp value). True, the fact that it's all-or nothing and usually too big of an XP boon to use to maximum efficiency in it's single daily use limits its utility, but still, that's 2,000 XP a day. Of course, having 8 of them would cost over 5 million gp, but if you could find investors willing to back your loan for about 9 months, you could pay them all back, then continue with your plan. Simple economics. And if your DM were willing to houserule a new item, you could get a rod for 325,000 gp that supplies 1,000 XP: exactly the cost for a +5 bonus. You'd only need 1 to start with, you'd pull in 40,000 gp a week. It would take about 2 months to save up the money for a second rod; then it would take 1 month to save for a third, 2 weeks for a fourth, 1 week for a fifth, etc. It would take about 3 months, but you'd still be back in the sweet spot. Hypothetically, if you were to devote nearly 15 hours of your day, every day, to making +5 bonuses at 8,000 gp each, you'd make 43,830,000 gp a year. With a Heward's Handy Haversack, 67,206,000 gp a year, again assuming ideal circumstances. Verbatim Quote: XP cost: You must spend XP equal to 1/25 the required cost of the material components when you cast this spell. Since Ignore Material Components lets you, well, ignore the material components, then there's no such thing as a "required" cost.
bluemage55 02-27-07, 12:09 AM	Unfortunately for you, the moment this idea comes to mind, Waukeen or some other deity/cosmic entity of commerce portfolio sense the threat to the economy, and smite you to oblivion. Or the DM bans the broken spell and slaps you for being childish.
IceFractal 02-27-07, 04:49 AM	By Epic level, there's lot of ways to make infinite wealth. But by then, it doesn't matter that much. I figure that really powerful items wouldn't be sold for normal cash - anyone who could make one, can also make whatever mundane things they need. So it seems like some sort of stronger currency would come into play - souls, credit in Sigil, seashells from the far-realms - something not so easy to duplicate. So all you could really do, is crash some economies, and I imagine that planar trade consortiums, like the kind that supply your Epic item needs, would be none too happy with that. The last thing you need is a bounty on your head paid in orbs of annihilation.
runestar 02-27-07, 08:00 AM	There could be some possible rp problems. It involves trafficking with fiends, so you might run into trouble with good-aligned law enforcers. Once word of this spreads - other spellcasters will probably be able to duplicate this method readily, possibly competing any supernatural profits away. Or merchants start putting contracts on your head since you are stealing all their business.
Pitiless_Interfector 05-07-07, 09:14 PM	Wow. It's been awhile (70 days, to be exact). Now, I don't want to be confrontational or patronizing, but I'd like to present the following quote: Unfortunately for you, the moment this idea comes to mind, Waukeen or some other deity/cosmic entity of commerce portfolio sense the threat to the economy, and smite you to oblivion. Or the DM bans the broken spell and slaps you for being childish. [:angelhide =start] Obviously, we have very creative and talented people here. People who take the time to give well thought-out and rational contributions. People who truly care about what we do here and make every effort to be as helpful as possible in making the Wizards community a vibrant and productive forum. I would like to take a moment to applaud you for your ingenuity and professionalism. [ :clap: ] [:angelhide =end] Apologies. I simply had to comment on that. I won't do it again, I promise. But what's past is past, and I hope 70 days have been enough for everyone to cool down. Now, let's try to start a serious discussion about the merits and flaws of this plan. And for the record, this is about the plan, not about the abuse inherent in having your PC carry out the plan. So, for example: Wouldn't this make a great adventure hook? Suppose the PCs stumble upon an 'irresistible deal' on magic items, only to find themselves joining the legions of 'satisified customers' who have become pawns in a thaumaturgist's plot to take over the city. Not to be whiny or gouche or to show bad netiquette, but I find it kind of disillusioning that everyone who posted assumed I was talking about muchkinry.
bluemage55 05-07-07, 10:13 PM	It's just a broken spell that needs errata. It's not that different from the mechanics required to make Pun-Pun. You can either rule that the Sarrukh ability is broken, and needs a revision, or you can abuse it. If you want to break it, though, don't expect any semblance of game balance thereafter.
Pitiless_Interfector 05-07-07, 10:17 PM	It's just a broken spell that needs errata. It's not that different from the mechanics required to make Pun-Pun. You can either rule that the Sarrukh ability is broken, and needs a revision, or you can abuse it. If you want to break it, though, don't expect any semblance of game balance thereafter. If you've read my latest post on the Epic Warlock thread (see the sig for an easy shortcut), you already know what you did wrong. If not, I'll tell you: Please read ALL of my post to be sure I haven't already addressed your question, perhaps even in the same manner by which you would answer.
bluemage55 05-07-07, 10:40 PM	My answer was to the question of whether or not it would make a great adventure hook. Something that is in need of errata is not an adventure hook, it is a mistake that should be retroactively fixed. If not, there would be an endless number of adventure hooks involving hunting down kobolds with psi-crystals
Starmage21 05-08-07, 08:34 AM	My answer was to the question of whether or not it would make a great adventure hook. Something that is in need of errata is not an adventure hook, it is a mistake that should be retroactively fixed. If not, there would be an endless number of adventure hooks involving hunting down kobolds with psi-crystals There are many ways to create free wealth in the D&D game, and most of them dont happen until you get to epic level. That said, it's not really a big deal simply because it's one of many. Seriously, the key factor in resource management in epic play is the flow of experience points to your players. Its easy enough to watch their gear melt away with a mord's disjunction here or there, and then see it immediately replaced after(or during) the adventure. If you really want easy money, run a business. You can do that pretty much from the start of level 1.
yellowdingo 05-08-07, 08:53 AM	And Baron Fluug (Wizard L14) with three hundred square miles of Vinyards and timber plantation can export 20 million worth of wine a year after the fifteenth year... If you havnt seen it I suggest you avail yourself of the Estate of Marilenev documents on Vaults of Pandius. The Estate is near a hundred million gp per year in actual produce (market value) After tithe, salt tax, letting the peasants keep fifty percent of what they produce, the Lady of the estate has twenty million in her purse at years end after all costs, upkeeps, and she still sells it at below market value. If you think 8 million per annum through dabbling with the Abyss is the better choice, think again as that army of paladin marches on your hideout to put you to the stake.
Graah 05-14-07, 12:07 PM	There are many ways to create free wealth in the D&D game, and most of them dont happen until you get to epic level.It's not exactly free wealth, but if you spend 50 gp on components, you can make a wall of iron (permanent) if you are a 12th level wizard, and then sell the iron for something like 1,500 gp :P That's one of the least cheesy "money pump" methods.
Starmage21 05-14-07, 05:28 PM	It's not exactly free wealth, but if you spend 50 gp on components, you can make a wall of iron (permanent) if you are a 12th level wizard, and then sell the iron for something like 1,500 gp :P That's one of the least cheesy "money pump" methods. for a pittance of an investment, DMG2 allows you to run a frickin business. Money doesnt get any more free than that.