Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EldonG 03-26-07, 03:27 PM	I'm fiddling around with an NPC...a flavor character, more than anything...he's a Paragon Human Warblade5/Swordsage20... I know he isn't superoptimized, but still, with the right stuff, he should be plenty sick enough. My question...when figuring initiator level, is it appropriate to use the Paragon +13 bonus to 'special abilities'? It seems a bit odd when I look at it, irregardless...but...this would potentially allow him a 9th lvl manuever as a Warblade...of course, Paragons can also get +15 levels for spell-like abilities, so it doesn't seem too horribly unbalanced, to me. Oh...all that said...think about it...with hardly any hard optimizing, Avalanche of Blades starting at +75 and doing 2d6+57 (and likely, quite a bit more, when it all works out. Ouch! :P )
Elessar Lespin 03-26-07, 10:12 PM	Unless the Paragon template was errated out in some way I'm not aware of, the +13 bonus (as read) only applies to save DC's, damage, or other such figures. Applying a +13 insight bonus to initiator level would seem to be a massively broken rape of RAW. The only bonus to caster level is listed specifically in its own separate paragraph and refers ONLY to caster level (for spell-like abilities/psionics).
EldonG 03-27-07, 10:37 AM	Yeah...and admittedly, granting initiator level would be more powerful, but if you don't allow for something, pure melee types seem to get a little hosed. Any thoughts on options? He is an NPC, but I do want to be fair.
Elessar Lespin 03-28-07, 09:38 PM	As far as I see it, you don't really need to rape the initiator level angle to take advantage of the paragon template in conjunction with ToB builds. The primary advantages of the paragon template should be obvious: 1.) Maximum HP/HD. This is insane. The same boost that deities receive. Added longevity in combat anyone? 2.) Speed. It triples. Allow me to say that again... TRIPLES. You can totally rape several martial maneuvers that are based upon speed. How about making a multiclassed monk/sword sage and use Bounding Assault. Double move and attack. Just to name one. 3.) +25 luck bonus on attack. Your avalanche of blades damage is based upon the number of iterative attacks you make due to the maneuver. 4.) Now for perhaps the BIGGEST advantage. MASSIVE save DC boosts. Firstly you get an insane +15 stat boost across the board. That boosts the relevant ability modifier for whatever save DC you can imagine. Then you add the +13 insight bonus to save DC's. Give your antagonist a really **** aggravating maneuver like Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike. Look at the ridiculous ability damage it does. Imagine what the save DC will be to overcome it. Laugh evilly and rub your palms together like a nefarious DM should. Boosting initiator level isn't needed and would be excessively broken IMO.
bluemage55 03-28-07, 10:31 PM	1.) Maximum HP/HD. This is insane. The same boost that deities receive. Added longevity in combat anyone? Losing 15 HD reduces this significantly. For example, at ECL 30, a barbarian 30 with 56 Con has 30d12 + 690 = 885 average hp. A paragon barbarian 15 with 71 Con has 15d12 + 630 = 810 hp. If the character in question has a massive Con bonus from an epic buff, there will be an even bigger difference in hp. 2.) Speed. It triples. Allow me to say that again... TRIPLES. This should actually be updated to +60 ft. as per 3.0 -> 3.5 updating. 4.) Now for perhaps the BIGGEST advantage. MASSIVE save DC boosts. Firstly you get an insane +15 stat boost across the board. That boosts the relevant ability modifier for whatever save DC you can imagine. Then you add the +13 insight bonus to save DC's. This is actually the worst advantage. No one fails saves at epic.
Elessar Lespin 03-29-07, 10:57 PM	This should actually be updated to +60 ft. as per 3.0 -> 3.5 updating. I was not aware of that. I stand corrected. This is actually the worst advantage. No one fails saves at epic. This may or may not be the case depending on the intelligence of the players involved and how much they actually min-max their characters. I've played in several epic games where the people were idiots who overlooked their saves or even a single save. Your artifact sword and big muscles won't do anything to save you when the enemy NPC uses Death Urge on you and you fall on your own sword next round. :D
bluemage55 03-30-07, 02:19 PM	This may or may not be the case depending on the intelligence of the players involved and how much they actually min-max their characters. I've played in several epic games where the people were idiots who overlooked their saves or even a single save. Your artifact sword and big muscles won't do anything to save you when the enemy NPC uses Death Urge on you and you fall on your own sword next round. :D Yes, but if you assume stupid players, you don't need to worry so much about strategy. It's also impractical to assume that your enemies will be foolish, and much better to assume the worst and be prepared for that. Any strategy I give assumes reasonably capable players. You can always argue that any given bad strategy will work against bad players, but that doesn't make the strategy a good one.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-31-07, 11:18 AM	This should actually be updated to +60 ft. as per 3.0 -> 3.5 updating. Not according to the SRD.
EldonG 03-31-07, 03:02 PM	Genuinely, I've played with a few other builds, and I can make him much more dangerous...I'm not so sure the initiator level boost is really all that bad a thing, yet. At ECL 30+, a paragon really isn't that dominating...
Roivas 03-31-07, 04:11 PM	Paragon is the template would really help out this guy. A +25 to all attacks will ensure his hits will just keep coming. All the handy abilties mentioned earlier, plus a few handy spell-like abilities. This guy could tear through a party given the right scenario, but if you use a pair of them it would work out even better. Maybe drop the level by one, unless it really helps the guy out, and have them take on a pair of paragons. With their high saves, giant ACs, excellent attacks, and massively increased speeds a duo of doom could be better than a single melee machine. Or you could have a paragon cleric come by to assist.
bluemage55 03-31-07, 04:54 PM	Not according to the SRD. No, but it should be revised in that manner. There's plenty of other mistakes in the epic SRD that were the result of poor updating.
EldonG 04-01-07, 03:55 PM	I love the Paragon template (flawed as it is), but I tend to use it sparingly. I just don't see there being too many 'perfects' around, even when it's engineered...(and it has definitely been in my twisted world...)
Tshern 04-04-07, 11:12 AM	Losing 15 HD reduces this significantly. For example, at ECL 30, a barbarian 30 with 56 Con has 30d12 + 690 = 885 average hp. A paragon barbarian 15 with 71 Con has 15d12 + 630 = 810 hp. If the character in question has a massive Con bonus from an epic buff, there will be an even bigger difference in hp. Maybe this has been corrected in 3.5, but at least originally Paragon creatures did not only get maximum hitpoints/HD, but also additional 12 hitpoints on top of that and the Con-modifier. Maybe it has been changed or you already calculated that. Just my two cents...
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-04-07, 01:11 PM	Maybe this has been corrected in 3.5, but at least originally Paragon creatures did not only get maximum hitpoints/HD, but also additional 12 hitpoints on top of that and the Con-modifier. Maybe it has been changed or you already calculated that. Just my two cents... He already calculated it.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-04-07, 01:12 PM	No, but it should be revised in that manner. There's plenty of other mistakes in the epic SRD that were the result of poor updating. After an exhaustive search, I found two. Also, you have yet to provide a reason why it should be revised in that matter.
bluemage55 04-04-07, 05:47 PM	After an exhaustive search, I found two. Just a few examples: The skills still refer to Stabilize Self when it was folded into Autohypnosis in 3.5. Dire Charge still reflects 3.0 pounce. The Mighty Rage epic feat is completely subsumed by the Mighty Rage class feature in 3.5. Some epic seeds reflect the 3.0 versions of their base spell. The vast majority of the magic items do not follow 3.5 pricing. Magic Immunity was updated to Immunity to Magic as of 3.5, yet none of the epic monsters in the SRD have followe dthis. The infernal's DR was left as 3.0. The mithral golem's stats reflect a permanent 3.0 haste rather than 3.5 haste. The umbral blot's Disintegrating Touch reflects 3.0 disintegrate. Also, you have yet to provide a reason why it should be revised in that matter. 3.5 does away with multipliers of speed. All previous references to double speed became +30 ft (up to a maximum of twice the original speed). It is a mere oversight that the paragon and pseudonatural templates did not recieve this change.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-04-07, 06:45 PM	The skills still refer to Stabilize Self when it was folded into Autohypnosis in 3.5. The infernal's DR was left as 3.0. Wrong and wrong. The umbral blot's Disintegrating Touch reflects 3.0 disintegrate. Irrelevant, as it is explicitly not disintegrate. 3.5 does away with multipliers of speed. All previous references to double speed became +30 ft (up to a maximum of twice the original speed). It is a mere oversight that the paragon and pseudonatural templates did not recieve this change. The two cases I could find for that both were changed as a result of them being overpowered.
bluemage55 04-04-07, 07:21 PM	Wrong and wrong. I'm referring to the official SRD: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35. The one you are probably looking at is the hypertext d20, which corrected those mistakes like I did in my revision thread. Irrelevant, as it is explicitly not disintegrate. It is based on disintegrate. It is logical to update rules based on other rules that are updated. For example, even though epic spell seeds are not explicitly the same as the spells they are based on, it makes sense to update them according to revisions of the base spells. The two cases I could find for that both were changed as a result of them being overpowered. Are you suggesting that the paragon's triple speed isn't overpowered? Quoting someone earlier in this thread: "Speed. It triples. Allow me to say that again... TRIPLES." Multipliers were removed because the power level of multipliers vary considerably. The change to flat increases was in the interests of game balance. This problem exists with any multipliers to speed, including the paragon's.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-04-07, 07:56 PM	Are you suggesting that the paragon's triple speed isn't overpowered? Quoting someone earlier in this thread: "Speed. It triples. Allow me to say that again... TRIPLES." With a CR mod of +15 and an LA approaching +20? No, not really.
bluemage55 04-04-07, 11:06 PM	There's no official LA, so arguing with that is circular. The paragon template does grant a very wide array of strong benefits. Triple speed would very simply mean that paragons are the fastest creatures in existence, even more so than deities (whose speed increases, incidentally, were also changed from double to a flat number). It's basically a blatant inconsistency with all the other speed updates, but it does hold a consistency with the myriad other mistakes in the Epic SRD.
Tshern 04-09-07, 08:03 AM	He already calculated it. Oh, no problem then. That's what you get for trying to be smarter than an older member...