Is this weapon Epic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this weapon Epic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sin_vraal
11-13-07, 05:58 AM We recently received a +5 dancing vorpal sword (+14 total bonus) in our campaign. after some searching, I believe it came from a canned adventure called 'hellstone deep'

Under DMG magic weapon creation rules, no weapon may have more than a +5 enhancement bonus or +10 total bonuses.

Under Epic rules, in order to be epic, it must have a +6 bonus of some sort (enhancement or single special ability).

it also states anything over 200k is epic as well in general.

Obviously this weapon exceeds the 200k mark, but it doesnt fall into either of the first 2 categories.

Is this weapon Epic?
Is this weapon able to be created under the current ruleset, or was some creative license used to make it?
and how would I price this weapon(again some confusion due to the enhancement bonus not pushing it into the epic category)?

Any input greatly appreciated!
runestar
11-13-07, 07:48 AM It is epic, as the sum of its total enhancement bonus exceeds +10 (+5 from weapon enchantment, +4 from dancing, +5 from vorpal).

Price would be 14*14*2*1000*10 or 3,920,000 gp.
dragon221284
11-13-07, 08:28 AM but it dosn't penetrate DR/epic...

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=430042 (READ THIS FIRST) :)
runestar
11-13-07, 09:38 AM I disagree with some of the info found in the FAQ, such as qualifying for epic progression when your ECL is 21+.

But to be fair, I don't think anyone actually truly comprehends how epic rules really work...:(
BillTheManiac
11-13-07, 12:39 PM I disagree with some of the info found in the FAQ, such as qualifying for epic progression when your ECL is 21+.

But to be fair, I don't think anyone actually truly comprehends how epic rules really work...:(

QFT.
Kesuk2k5
11-13-07, 03:41 PM It isn't +6, but its total special abilities put it over the +10 mark.
"Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price."
It might use the non-epic price table, but I'd definately say it's still an epic-grade weapon.
Tequila_Sunrise
11-13-07, 04:07 PM Epic. Even if none of its abilities technically qualify as "epic", I wouldn't give pre-epic characters access to such an item. And also, what everyone else said.
sin_vraal
11-13-07, 07:50 PM Epic. Even if none of its abilities technically qualify as "epic", I wouldn't give pre-epic characters access to such an item. And also, what everyone else said.

We just hit 20th level when we completed it, so not to bad for the just 'pre epic graduation party' gift :)

Thx for the info everyone!
rob_douglas
11-14-07, 08:25 AM It isn't +6, but its total special abilities put it over the +10 mark.
"Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price."
It might use the non-epic price table, but I'd definately say it's still an epic-grade weapon.
But it doesn't use the non-epic price table, from your own quote - the total effective bonus is +14, outside the +6 to +10 range.

An Item is epic for crafting purposes (needs an epic craft feat) if it exceeds 200K in base cost not including materials, intelligent item, and XP costs. E.g. Armor +5 heavy Fortification, with acid, cold, fire, electric, sonic resistance 30 each.

An item uses the epic pricing (with the x10 modifier) if it exceeds the allowed non-epic bonuses, i.e. +5 enhancement bonus or +10 in total bonuses for weapons and armor. E.g. a +1 vorpal, dancing, bane weapon uses epic pricing, 11*11*2000*10 = 2.42 million.

An item can penetrate DR ?/Epic if it has an enhancement bonus of +6 or better. Some interpret this to mean a +4 bane weapon can penetrate it as well, but I don't as I don't want people carrying around 10 +5 bane weapons in place of a single +6 weapon, but that's just me.

Clear as mud?

BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes!

ROB
fudgethepolice
11-24-07, 07:30 PM Epic dose not really mean anything,it just sounds cool.
Witch
11-24-07, 07:38 PM Epic dose not really mean anything,it just sounds cool.
Ehm, no.
Epic has several mechanical meanings and a lot of flavorful connotations.
runestar
11-24-07, 08:54 PM And dancing stinks anyways.
rob_douglas
11-26-07, 05:36 PM Not the way I play it. ;)

I determined long ago that you need to allow the dancing weapon to be used as if you were wielding it yourself - not the way the DMG does (where you lose STR bonus). Otherwise, Speed is strictly superior in all cases, except maybe when you want to cast spells. And it is too hard to keep track of the dancing attack and damage bonuses. Just use your regular attacks for Dancing attacks.

ROB
Sagetim
11-28-07, 07:05 PM BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes!

ROB

yeah, simple way to prevent this. Don't let them sell it.
sin_vraal
12-04-07, 07:38 AM yeah, simple way to prevent this. Don't let them sell it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_douglas View Post
BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes!

ROB
yeah, simple way to prevent this. Don't let them sell it.

heh, we have no intention of selling it. Aside from being a packrat who keeps anything interesting or even remotely unique, The weapon is my new symbol of office! This thing kicks the #!@$ out of my rod of splendor!
sin_vraal
12-04-07, 07:44 AM But it doesn't use the non-epic price table, from your own quote - the total effective bonus is +14, outside the +6 to +10 range.

An Item is epic for crafting purposes (needs an epic craft feat) if it exceeds 200K in base cost not including materials, intelligent item, and XP costs. E.g. Armor +5 heavy Fortification, with acid, cold, fire, electric, sonic resistance 30 each.

An item uses the epic pricing (with the x10 modifier) if it exceeds the allowed non-epic bonuses, i.e. +5 enhancement bonus or +10 in total bonuses for weapons and armor. E.g. a +1 vorpal, dancing, bane weapon uses epic pricing, 11*11*2000*10 = 2.42 million.

An item can penetrate DR ?/Epic if it has an enhancement bonus of +6 or better. Some interpret this to mean a +4 bane weapon can penetrate it as well, but I don't as I don't want people carrying around 10 +5 bane weapons in place of a single +6 weapon, but that's just me.

Clear as mud?

YUP!

BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes!

ROB
Very True, however considering the party is a warlock, psion gish (me), and a cleric, its basically just a trophy for us.

I swing it occasionally when I'm too cheap to blow power points on the yard trash. :D
BillTheManiac
12-04-07, 07:59 AM YUP!

Very True, however considering the party is a warlock, psion gish (me), and a cleric, its basically just a trophy for us.

I swing it occasionally when I'm too cheap to blow power points on the yard trash. :D

You could sell it if you found someplace with a high enough gp limit - sigil maybe?
sin_vraal
12-04-07, 04:38 PM You could sell it if you found someplace with a high enough gp limit - sigil maybe?

Sure, any number of places you could possibly sell it, however I think it would ruin the spirit of the game at this level.

As Rob pointed out earlier, you could buy 4 quantity +7 weapons with it...
considering we dont really need weapons with it at all since we are casters, I'm sure I could get way more creative with it in 1 level when epic spells come available. not to mention you could outfit everyone with the best the non epic items have to offer.

I think at this point its better to keep it in that 'priceless artifact' category... and besides... I'm still not convinced I'd ever make a weapon with dancing or vorpal attached to it (although the fact that you could have several of these swinging around your head starts making vorpal more amusing for sure), so who would actually buy it?
sin_vraal
12-04-07, 04:47 PM You could sell it if you found someplace with a high enough gp limit - sigil maybe?

this brings up another more interesting question tho... would it be smart to sell it?

As pointed out... this treasure is NOT normal for 20th level party. So, if we were to go about some city where there were entities with the means to purchase it, we'd be asking for a lot of trouble as these beings would be way out of our league in terms of power.

In fact I've been thinking of starting up a new high level non epic to low level epic campaign, and this sounds like just the way to start things rolling...

The PCs walk into town, and try to pawn a 5Million gp sword, hilarity ensues as several beings of immense power decide to 'cash in on a freebie'

The Powers of good think you should just hand it over to them for a small reward since letting it fall into the wrong hands could hurt innocents. not giving it to them results in them hunting you down for your own protection,

and the Powers of neutrality and evil want it for themselves, and on a practical note, why buy when you can get it for free!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sin_vraal 11-13-07, 05:58 AM	We recently received a +5 dancing vorpal sword (+14 total bonus) in our campaign. after some searching, I believe it came from a canned adventure called 'hellstone deep' Under DMG magic weapon creation rules, no weapon may have more than a +5 enhancement bonus or +10 total bonuses. Under Epic rules, in order to be epic, it must have a +6 bonus of some sort (enhancement or single special ability). it also states anything over 200k is epic as well in general. Obviously this weapon exceeds the 200k mark, but it doesnt fall into either of the first 2 categories. Is this weapon Epic? Is this weapon able to be created under the current ruleset, or was some creative license used to make it? and how would I price this weapon(again some confusion due to the enhancement bonus not pushing it into the epic category)? Any input greatly appreciated!
runestar 11-13-07, 07:48 AM	It is epic, as the sum of its total enhancement bonus exceeds +10 (+5 from weapon enchantment, +4 from dancing, +5 from vorpal). Price would be 14142100010 or 3,920,000 gp.
dragon221284 11-13-07, 08:28 AM	but it dosn't penetrate DR/epic... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=430042 (READ THIS FIRST) :)
runestar 11-13-07, 09:38 AM	I disagree with some of the info found in the FAQ, such as qualifying for epic progression when your ECL is 21+. But to be fair, I don't think anyone actually truly comprehends how epic rules really work...:(
BillTheManiac 11-13-07, 12:39 PM	I disagree with some of the info found in the FAQ, such as qualifying for epic progression when your ECL is 21+. But to be fair, I don't think anyone actually truly comprehends how epic rules really work...:( QFT.
Kesuk2k5 11-13-07, 03:41 PM	It isn't +6, but its total special abilities put it over the +10 mark. "Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price." It might use the non-epic price table, but I'd definately say it's still an epic-grade weapon.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-13-07, 04:07 PM	Epic. Even if none of its abilities technically qualify as "epic", I wouldn't give pre-epic characters access to such an item. And also, what everyone else said.
sin_vraal 11-13-07, 07:50 PM	Epic. Even if none of its abilities technically qualify as "epic", I wouldn't give pre-epic characters access to such an item. And also, what everyone else said. We just hit 20th level when we completed it, so not to bad for the just 'pre epic graduation party' gift :) Thx for the info everyone!
rob_douglas 11-14-07, 08:25 AM	It isn't +6, but its total special abilities put it over the +10 mark. "Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price." It might use the non-epic price table, but I'd definately say it's still an epic-grade weapon. But it doesn't use the non-epic price table, from your own quote - the total effective bonus is +14, outside the +6 to +10 range. An Item is epic for crafting purposes (needs an epic craft feat) if it exceeds 200K in base cost not including materials, intelligent item, and XP costs. E.g. Armor +5 heavy Fortification, with acid, cold, fire, electric, sonic resistance 30 each. An item uses the epic pricing (with the x10 modifier) if it exceeds the allowed non-epic bonuses, i.e. +5 enhancement bonus or +10 in total bonuses for weapons and armor. E.g. a +1 vorpal, dancing, bane weapon uses epic pricing, 11112000*10 = 2.42 million. An item can penetrate DR ?/Epic if it has an enhancement bonus of +6 or better. Some interpret this to mean a +4 bane weapon can penetrate it as well, but I don't as I don't want people carrying around 10 +5 bane weapons in place of a single +6 weapon, but that's just me. Clear as mud? BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes! ROB
fudgethepolice 11-24-07, 07:30 PM	Epic dose not really mean anything,it just sounds cool.
Witch 11-24-07, 07:38 PM	Epic dose not really mean anything,it just sounds cool. Ehm, no. Epic has several mechanical meanings and a lot of flavorful connotations.
runestar 11-24-07, 08:54 PM	And dancing stinks anyways.
rob_douglas 11-26-07, 05:36 PM	Not the way I play it. ;) I determined long ago that you need to allow the dancing weapon to be used as if you were wielding it yourself - not the way the DMG does (where you lose STR bonus). Otherwise, Speed is strictly superior in all cases, except maybe when you want to cast spells. And it is too hard to keep track of the dancing attack and damage bonuses. Just use your regular attacks for Dancing attacks. ROB
Sagetim 11-28-07, 07:05 PM	BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes! ROB yeah, simple way to prevent this. Don't let them sell it.
sin_vraal 12-04-07, 07:38 AM	yeah, simple way to prevent this. Don't let them sell it. Quote: Originally Posted by rob_douglas View Post BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes! ROB yeah, simple way to prevent this. Don't let them sell it. heh, we have no intention of selling it. Aside from being a packrat who keeps anything interesting or even remotely unique, The weapon is my new symbol of office! This thing kicks the #!@$ out of my rod of splendor!
sin_vraal 12-04-07, 07:44 AM	But it doesn't use the non-epic price table, from your own quote - the total effective bonus is +14, outside the +6 to +10 range. An Item is epic for crafting purposes (needs an epic craft feat) if it exceeds 200K in base cost not including materials, intelligent item, and XP costs. E.g. Armor +5 heavy Fortification, with acid, cold, fire, electric, sonic resistance 30 each. An item uses the epic pricing (with the x10 modifier) if it exceeds the allowed non-epic bonuses, i.e. +5 enhancement bonus or +10 in total bonuses for weapons and armor. E.g. a +1 vorpal, dancing, bane weapon uses epic pricing, 11112000*10 = 2.42 million. An item can penetrate DR ?/Epic if it has an enhancement bonus of +6 or better. Some interpret this to mean a +4 bane weapon can penetrate it as well, but I don't as I don't want people carrying around 10 +5 bane weapons in place of a single +6 weapon, but that's just me. Clear as mud? YUP! BTW - this is not an appropriate treasure item for a 20th level party. It is worth almost 4 million in gold, and could easily allow you to buy 4 +7 weapons to replace it if you sold it at 1/2 price. Yikes! ROB Very True, however considering the party is a warlock, psion gish (me), and a cleric, its basically just a trophy for us. I swing it occasionally when I'm too cheap to blow power points on the yard trash. :D
BillTheManiac 12-04-07, 07:59 AM	YUP! Very True, however considering the party is a warlock, psion gish (me), and a cleric, its basically just a trophy for us. I swing it occasionally when I'm too cheap to blow power points on the yard trash. :D You could sell it if you found someplace with a high enough gp limit - sigil maybe?
sin_vraal 12-04-07, 04:38 PM	You could sell it if you found someplace with a high enough gp limit - sigil maybe? Sure, any number of places you could possibly sell it, however I think it would ruin the spirit of the game at this level. As Rob pointed out earlier, you could buy 4 quantity +7 weapons with it... considering we dont really need weapons with it at all since we are casters, I'm sure I could get way more creative with it in 1 level when epic spells come available. not to mention you could outfit everyone with the best the non epic items have to offer. I think at this point its better to keep it in that 'priceless artifact' category... and besides... I'm still not convinced I'd ever make a weapon with dancing or vorpal attached to it (although the fact that you could have several of these swinging around your head starts making vorpal more amusing for sure), so who would actually buy it?
sin_vraal 12-04-07, 04:47 PM	You could sell it if you found someplace with a high enough gp limit - sigil maybe? this brings up another more interesting question tho... would it be smart to sell it? As pointed out... this treasure is NOT normal for 20th level party. So, if we were to go about some city where there were entities with the means to purchase it, we'd be asking for a lot of trouble as these beings would be way out of our league in terms of power. In fact I've been thinking of starting up a new high level non epic to low level epic campaign, and this sounds like just the way to start things rolling... The PCs walk into town, and try to pawn a 5Million gp sword, hilarity ensues as several beings of immense power decide to 'cash in on a freebie' The Powers of good think you should just hand it over to them for a small reward since letting it fall into the wrong hands could hurt innocents. not giving it to them results in them hunting you down for your own protection, and the Powers of neutrality and evil want it for themselves, and on a practical note, why buy when you can get it for free!