Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rob_douglas 05-22-07, 04:00 PM	I ran my group of 22-23rd level characters into Kerleth's Tower. They are by no means optimizers, so that will have an effect on their abilities, but I wanted to see what others thought of the power level of that adventure as written, and should it be a different level. First is getting to the tower. The Infernal is able to telepathically speak to them from 1000 ft away, and doesn't want a fight, so that worked out fine, and he was able to avoid the fight. They can hit him sometimes, but not for a lot of damage, and his hp and saves and SR protect him long enough from spells that he can force negotiations as intended. The party refused his help, so he showed up unbidden to use the Egg on the Dragon. But even after that (100d10, so save, no SR on a Read dragon = 1010hp damage on average) the dragon still had a lot of hit points, and using the updated version in the Draconomicon, had an SR, AC, and DR such that I don't think the party could take him. They couldn't survive his breath, as they can't make the save, and the damage was nearly 200 on average, after resistance 30. The dragon is CR41, so it is not surprising that it will demolish them, even with the Egg. As a result, I determined the Dragon retreated anyway - assumed that they might have a second Egg. Now they come to the tower. It is protected from entering Ethereally by the Walls of Force, but not from Astral Projection, Dimension Door, or Teleport. Only the area with the Flux slime is protected against those by the AMF it generates. The front door can't be touched or opened by the party (they can't be CL 30 SR checks against them) so they have to either go up to the flux slime, or through a window. And again, no dimensional lock or forbiddance prevents other means. The windows are pitifully fragile and fall easily to a single full-power attack. The Party searched around and actually chose the one trapped window to enter - causing the lead character to go to the Mirror and be out - no save. (Of course had they searched for traps they would have avoided that, but that is another story). The used a Miracle to find where their comrade was imprisoned. Since his stuff is removed in the trap, that was a serious blow - except they were Astral Projecting, so once they release him from the mirror, they can end the spell and return to home. The equipment will not be lost when the spell ends. So now the next issue, they go to the place with the mirror, where the thorciasids are, and proceed to smash the mirror, releasing their companion, Regalid (who is dazed for 10 rounds, while no one else is....?), and 11 more thorciasids. With the melee touch ability/level drains, the party (without continuous Death Wards) was in serious trouble with 2 of those things, or even 3. 14 was insane. SR prevents enough spells, and resistance stops more, and they all have 400+ hp, so they take a while to kill. CR22, so EL 27 or so for all 14 of them. That is TPK range. Granted they could have made better use of the battlefield. And then there were the 2 lavawights coming up the stairs. So that seems really hard, but since they had Regalid free, they just teleported away with him and back to their home, bypassing the Infernal waiting to stop them. So now what? They need to go back for the Codex, but Regalid knows where it is, knows the password, and knows that nothing else can get to it. And even though the infernal wants it, they should be able to steal it with teleports again. There is absolutely, as I see it, no reason for the party to fight any of the remaining challenges in the tower: 1 Balor 1 paragon half-fire elemental ettin 1 sirrush ghost 4 mithral golem 2 lavawights 1 flux slime and they can get the Codex, Flameguard epic shield, and some epic scrolls with no real threat at this point. Regalid might want his stuff back, but the party being well below his level (he is 30th now in errata) means they should be completely overshadowed by them. For now, I determined that the Gleaners have summoned Regalid to explain his actions in not informing them of what he is up to, and he hasn't passed on the passwords, so the party can't really go back on their own...yet. But is there something I am missing in how to urge the party into more encounters in the Tower? Other than mere curiosity, is there any good reason for the party to go back there? And at what level is it really an appropriate challenge, since it was too hard to fight, and too easy to bypass, IMO? ROB
Starmage21 05-22-07, 07:09 PM	I ran my group of 22-23rd level characters into Kerleth's Tower. They are by no means optimizers, so that will have an effect on their abilities, but I wanted to see what others thought of the power level of that adventure as written, and should it be a different level. First is getting to the tower. The Infernal is able to telepathically speak to them from 1000 ft away, and doesn't want a fight, so that worked out fine, and he was able to avoid the fight. They can hit him sometimes, but not for a lot of damage, and his hp and saves and SR protect him long enough from spells that he can force negotiations as intended. The party refused his help, so he showed up unbidden to use the Egg on the Dragon. But even after that (100d10, so save, no SR on a Read dragon = 1010hp damage on average) the dragon still had a lot of hit points, and using the updated version in the Draconomicon, had an SR, AC, and DR such that I don't think the party could take him. They couldn't survive his breath, as they can't make the save, and the damage was nearly 200 on average, after resistance 30. The dragon is CR41, so it is not surprising that it will demolish them, even with the Egg. As a result, I determined the Dragon retreated anyway - assumed that they might have a second Egg. Now they come to the tower. It is protected from entering Ethereally by the Walls of Force, but not from Astral Projection, Dimension Door, or Teleport. Only the area with the Flux slime is protected against those by the AMF it generates. The front door can't be touched or opened by the party (they can't be CL 30 SR checks against them) so they have to either go up to the flux slime, or through a window. And again, no dimensional lock or forbiddance prevents other means. The windows are pitifully fragile and fall easily to a single full-power attack. The Party searched around and actually chose the one trapped window to enter - causing the lead character to go to the Mirror and be out - no save. (Of course had they searched for traps they would have avoided that, but that is another story). The used a Miracle to find where their comrade was imprisoned. Since his stuff is removed in the trap, that was a serious blow - except they were Astral Projecting, so once they release him from the mirror, they can end the spell and return to home. The equipment will not be lost when the spell ends. So now the next issue, they go to the place with the mirror, where the thorciasids are, and proceed to smash the mirror, releasing their companion, Regalid (who is dazed for 10 rounds, while no one else is....?), and 11 more thorciasids. With the melee touch ability/level drains, the party (without continuous Death Wards) was in serious trouble with 2 of those things, or even 3. 14 was insane. SR prevents enough spells, and resistance stops more, and they all have 400+ hp, so they take a while to kill. CR22, so EL 27 or so for all 14 of them. That is TPK range. Granted they could have made better use of the battlefield. And then there were the 2 lavawights coming up the stairs. So that seems really hard, but since they had Regalid free, they just teleported away with him and back to their home, bypassing the Infernal waiting to stop them. So now what? They need to go back for the Codex, but Regalid knows where it is, knows the password, and knows that nothing else can get to it. And even though the infernal wants it, they should be able to steal it with teleports again. There is absolutely, as I see it, no reason for the party to fight any of the remaining challenges in the tower: 1 Balor 1 paragon half-fire elemental ettin 1 sirrush ghost 4 mithral golem 2 lavawights 1 flux slime and they can get the Codex, Flameguard epic shield, and some epic scrolls with no real threat at this point. Regalid might want his stuff back, but the party being well below his level (he is 30th now in errata) means they should be completely overshadowed by them. For now, I determined that the Gleaners have summoned Regalid to explain his actions in not informing them of what he is up to, and he hasn't passed on the passwords, so the party can't really go back on their own...yet. But is there something I am missing in how to urge the party into more encounters in the Tower? Other than mere curiosity, is there any good reason for the party to go back there? And at what level is it really an appropriate challenge, since it was too hard to fight, and too easy to bypass, IMO? ROB This is precisely why epic characters are rated as they are. They have(or should have) the ability to pretty much pick and choose their fights, and usually on their own terms.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-22-07, 08:30 PM	Even though they can pick their fights, these fights are too much for 21st-level characters. Mainly, I think, it's a flaw in the CR system, or at least a major overestimation of a party's resources. The thorascids are the second problem; they're buggy monsters in the first place, and having them and the paragon ettins and the lavawights is a major screw-up on the desginers' part. The adventure can be done all the way with 27th-level PCs, I think; even then, though, the thorascid trap should be reduced.
Kord's Boon 05-23-07, 02:03 PM	When I ran this I came to the same conclusion as Taeldrin Laesrash concerning the whole mirror/thorascid trap. The only reason our party survived is because my character at the time was a pseudo-deity and therefore immune to ability drain and I had a ring that gave me freedom of movement and protection from imprisonment effects. Additionally, wanting to explore the entire tower and meet all the challenges to test our epic characters (we were new to the system), we placed the restriction on ourselves to not use teleport and the like to skip any, otherwise I too don’t see the reason for having all the opponents that can simply be skiped.
fnord 05-24-07, 02:12 AM	Changes that I made, when I ran it: 1) Pitting a CR >30 Dragon against a level 23 party is insane. Plus, why would some wizard have an ex-consort of Tiamat in thrall? I used a Great Wyrm Red, and didn't include the Egg of Abominable Cold. And I gave him normal treasure (and let him use some items, but my party optimizes). 2) The Ward which bars entrance to abominations and divination also prevents teleporting to or from anywhere but the entrance or the antechamber without a password (which the butler knows but Reginald doesn't), and alerts the butler teleportation or divination is attempted. 3) The transfer to the Mirror of Life Trapping traps allow DC 23 Will saves (just like actual Mirror of Life Trapping), but have Search and Disable Device DCs of 34 each. Reginald does not know the password, but was protected by his good will save; eventually, he got unlucky. 4) There are only 7 thorascids (2 in room 12 as normal, 5 in the mirror) , the maximum number in their "organization" entry. The remaining slots in the mirror are filled with more efreet. 5) The only artifact in the library is the Codex of Infinite Planes; the librams are replaced by other stat-boosting tomes. 6) As soon as the PCs enter the tower, the infernal brings its servants, 4 balors, to help it encircle the tower and prevent the PCs from escaping. He then attempts to prepare the battlefield by using Unhallow (with Resist Fire) all around the tower. If it succeeds, it further brings 10 ghours and 10 hezrou to support it. If the PCs surrender the Codex (if present) or Regalid to the Infernal, it leaves immediately, but the other demons remain to attack the PCs unless placated. 7) The windows are just like the walls, only made transparent by permanent invisibility spells. Also, the exterior walls are magically augmented, doubling hardness and hit points and increasing break DC to 60. 8) Added more traps and monsters: Symbols of Persuasion and Death protecting certain books in the library, in the butler's chambers, and in the Wizards chambers (covered in goo, only triggered if the goo is searched). A mithral golem in the front hallway, another cocooned in the audience chamber, and an adamantine golem in the library. 9) The butler is an Efreet wizard. 10) The balor in the entry way can be convinced to allow entrance. If a decent story combined with a bluff check or a bribe is made, it will cover the symbols (not the whole room) with deeper darkness and open the doors. 1-4 are highly recommended, for making the adventure sane. They eliminate glaring problems over overly dangerous protections or massive defensive weaknesses. 5-7 are recommended. The level gain tomes will unbalance the party, giving arcane casters an unearned level. The additional support for the infernal should ensure that the PCs don't get away with the Codex, which is likewise unbalancing. 8-10 are a matter of taste.
Kord's Boon 05-24-07, 02:29 AM	Good stuff. Are we allowed to play by post this material? always wanted to do that.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-24-07, 09:07 AM	I'm sure you could try to set something up in the Real Adventures board (WotC's PbP board).
rob_douglas 05-24-07, 04:38 PM	Good stuff Fnord - thanks. Yeah, those are the glaring problems with the module that need cleaning up. I will try to retcon as many of those in as I can. I wish I had asked BEFORE I started running it. I knew it looked tough on the surface, but when actually running it, certain things became more obvious (a technique Wizards could have used with the ELH before it went out the way it is... ;)) ROB