Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_of_Vain 11-12-07, 05:10 PM	She's a pretty cool being, but is there a stat sheet for her anywhere out there?
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-12-07, 06:19 PM	She's cool because there is no stat sheet.
Artifact 11-12-07, 06:47 PM	She's cool because there is no stat sheet. Even the very idea or suggestion of stats for the Lady of Pain is unthinkable among many Planescape fans it seems ;). In my opionion, she's fairly unique among the Monsters and NPCs of D&D, because without stats of any kind, she effectively can't be killed. She was given one single, solitary, easy to ignore "stat" in Planar Handbook, and even that itty bit didn't go unnoticed by the fans, nor did it set well with most, it seems ;). Like I said, touchy subject :P. I always wanted to read Pages of Pain, a Planescape novel, to see what kind of story might be told about the enigmatic Lady, but I never picked it up, unfortunately. Ebay, here I come . . . ;) /\ Art
Wintermute_ 11-12-07, 07:00 PM	Kain Darkwind and Phaedros both did some stats for here over at Dicefreaks, but since the sites's currently non-existent, I'm afraid I can't get them to you.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-12-07, 08:43 PM	I've seen stats for the Lady. Something along the lines of: HP: Infinity AC: Higher than you can hit Special Abilities: You're dead Special Qualities: Immune to everything etc..... ...or was that someone's idea of Chuck Norris?
BillTheManiac 11-12-07, 09:20 PM	I've seen stats for the Lady. Something along the lines of: HP: Infinity AC: Higher than you can hit Special Abilities: You're dead Special Qualities: Immune to everything etc..... ...or was that someone's idea of Chuck Norris? That's PP/Mortiverse, actually. Arguably LoP=PP+extreme laziness. Discuss.
archerpwr 11-12-07, 10:35 PM	That's PP/Mortiverse, actually. Arguably LoP=PP+extreme laziness. Discuss. LordofProcrastination is punpun?
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-12-07, 11:41 PM	LordofProcrastination is punpun? Considering that he found a way to 'defeat' Pun-Pun, I don't think he conquered himself. Might explain why he's not around as much. When I look at my beliefs where the LoP is concerned, I don't entirely get it myself. I suppose it's mostly there because not giving her stats has been pounded into my head. I think it's mostly because any stats on her would define her in some way, whereas the mystery surrounding her was always what made her so interesting. Pages of Pain had...an interesting take on her. It was a decent book, overall, but not what I'd use for my campaigns.
Tshern 11-13-07, 10:38 AM	LordofProcrastination is punpun? I knew it! I just knew it!
Rania 11-13-07, 11:55 AM	I've seen stats for the Lady. Something along the lines of: HP: Infinity AC: Higher than you can hit Special Abilities: You're dead Special Qualities: Immune to everything etc..... ...or was that someone's idea of Chuck Norris?That's hilarious.
BillTheManiac 11-13-07, 12:38 PM	Lady of Pain! I said Lady of Pain! Lord of Procrastination=Lady of Pain? He does have the laziness in his name......
Tequila_Sunrise 11-13-07, 01:27 PM	That's PP/Mortiverse, actually. Arguably LoP=PP+extreme laziness. Discuss. I'd rather not. Any thread involving Mortiverse and/or Pun Pun = wasted time that I'll never get back.
CeresOfTerra 11-13-07, 02:54 PM	I'd just like to point out two things: 1, players will ultimately think, "If it has stats, we can kill it!" 2, the Lady of Pain does not have stats.
archerpwr 11-13-07, 05:33 PM	Wow... I'm such a nerd. I see LoP and automatically think of LordofProcrastination rather than the title of the tread.
Thegans 11-13-07, 05:38 PM	The easiest way to determine the Lady of Pain's stats is to just write on the character sheet "Fifteen times more powerful than it needs to be to accomplish its current task."
CrimsonDeath 11-13-07, 06:37 PM	The Lady can prevent deities from interfering in her business. All of them. At once. What hope do the players have?
GraveDigger 11-13-07, 08:38 PM	The players only hope.. Become her best friend!
Aluroon 11-13-07, 08:44 PM	Note, these stats are designed to fit into Kain's alternate cosmology. The Lady of Pain Medium Outsider Hit Dice: 80d8+3200 (3840 hp) Initiative: +50 Speed: 60 ft., fly 120 ft. (perfect) AC: 110 (+22 deflection, +20 Dex, +24 insight, +34 natural) touch 76, flat-footed 110 Base Attack/Grapple: +80/+100 Attack: Spectral slash +127 melee or ranged (60 ft.) touch (20d8+46 15-20/x5 and death (Fort DC 60)) Full Attack: 2 spectral slashes +127 melee or ranged (60 ft.) touch (20d8+46 15-20/x5 and death (Fort DC 60)) Space/Reach: 5 ft. /5 ft. Special Attacks: Flay, Maze, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Cosmic Immunities, DR 50/-, darkvision, Lady’s Fortitude, Lady’s Grace, Lady’s Insight, Lady’s Purity, Lady’s Sanctity, regeneration 50, resistance to energy (all) 50, SR 100, summon dabaus, telepathy 1000 ft., true seeing. Saves: Fort +82, Ref +84, Will +88 Abilities: Str 30, Dex 50, Con 47, Int 55, Wis 59, Cha 55 Skills: Appraise +105, Balance +103, Bluff +105, Concentration +101, Diplomacy +129, Disguise +105 (+113 acting), Escape Artist +103, Gather Information +113, Heal +107, Hide +103, Intimidate +126, Jump +22, Knowledge (all) +105, Listen +107, Move Silently +103, Perform (oratory) +105, Search +105, Sense motive +107, Spellcraft +113, Spot +107, Survival +107 (+115 w/synergy), Use Magic Device +105 Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Critical (spectral slash), Improved Initiative, Mobility, Skill Focus (intimidate), Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (spectral slash) Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Devestating Critical (spectral slash), Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Epic Weapon Focus (spectral slash), Improved Combat Reflexes, Overwhelming Critical (spectral slash), Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: Sigil Organization: Solitary (Unique) Challenge Rating: 85 Treasure: Unknown Alignment: Neutral Cosmic Entity: The Lady of Pain is entitled to rank checks against deities and other cosmic entities. The Lady has a +30 to rank checks. Cosmic entities are not subject to the +4 strata differential. Flay (Ex): By looking at a creature or creatures (a full round action), the Lady may cause them to erupt in horrible wounds. Those who fail a Fortitude save DC 73 die immediately. Those who succeed merely take 10d6 Constitution and Charisma damage. The Lady may target up to ten targets with a single use of Flay, no two of which can be more than one mile apart. Lady’s Fortitude (Ex): The Lady uses her Charisma modifier in addition to her Constitution modifier to determine her bonus hit points. The Lady also has Improved Mettle. Lady’s Grace (Ex): The Lady adds her Charisma modifier as a bonus on her saves and her initiative rolls. The Lady has Improved Evasion. Those attempting to attack the Lady by any means magical or mundane suffer a 70% miss chance. Lady’s Insight (Ex): The Lady adds her Wisdom modifier to all her attack and damage rolls. Lady’s Purity (Ex): Those who profane the Lady by striking her person in melee suffer 10d8 points of slashing damage. Those who stand within 10ft. of the Lady suffer 5d8 points of slashing damage. Lady’s Sanctity (Ex): The Lady is surrounded by an aura 300 feet in radius. Those within the aura who fail a Will save are affected as if by forbidden speech. The topic they cannot discuss is the Lady Herself. Maze (Ex): As a free action, the Lady may banish a creature to an interdimensional maze. There is no save allowed, but the creature is entitled to a DC 80 Int check to escape immediately. Every failure results in the creature being lost for 5d% years, after which he can attempt another Int check with a +1 cumulative bonus to escape. Regeneration (Ex): It is unknown if any type of damage deals lethal damage to the Lady. Spectral Slash (Ex): The Lady’s natural weapons overcome damage reduction and regeneration of all types. Impenetrable damage reduction only reduces damage from the spectral slash one half of its usual amount. This attack can strike incorporeal creatures with no miss chance. Spell-like Abilities: At will-blade barrier, gate, greater teleport, harm Caster level 80th; DC 32+spell level. The Lady’s spell-like abilities are considered quickened, and she can use them up to 3 times a round as an immediate action. Summon Dabaus (Sp): At will as a free action, the Lady can summon 10d10 dabaus
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 11-13-07, 10:09 PM	I have stats for all dieties and near diety entities. My players have never tried to kill any of them. I don't see what the big deal is.
Artifact 11-14-07, 01:18 AM	Note, these stats are designed to fit into Kain's alternate cosmology. Well, I stand corrected. Apparently not everyone is adamantly opposed to stats for the Lady of Pain. Nice work, Mr. Darkwind ;). Is this from Dicefreaks by any chance? I really should stop by there more often (someone mentioned it being down?). /\ Art
The Serge7 11-14-07, 08:39 AM	Kain Darkwind's stats are part of his Alternate Cosmology that attempts to seam "official" WotC material with DF's (up to high end epic) material. It's official in that sense, but it's not DF material per se. Dicefreaks will never provide "official" stats for The Lady of Pain. And, yes, the site is currently down (so ignore my links).
rob_douglas 11-14-07, 08:45 AM	I have never understood the fascination with not stating the Lady, at least not among those that accept stats for gods. She has never really interested me - as a Deus Ex Machina she isn't even that subtle. I believe that a coherent cosmology could handle her having stats. But Planescape never was that - trying to include gods from all worlds at different power levels, as if they could all be melded into a single cosmology. I pretty much ignore the Lady - she doesn't make sense to me. ROB
BillTheManiac 11-14-07, 10:34 AM	I have never understood the fascination with not stating the Lady, at least not among those that accept stats for gods. She has never really interested me - as a Deus Ex Machina she isn't even that subtle. I believe that a coherent cosmology could handle her having stats. But Planescape never was that - trying to include gods from all worlds at different power levels, as if they could all be melded into a single cosmology. I pretty much ignore the Lady - she doesn't make sense to me. ROB If you can't make balanced stats for it, then it doesn't exist.
zeratulcraft 11-18-07, 03:32 AM	The idea is that the Lady is not a character, she's a plot point.
CrimsonDeath 11-18-07, 05:18 PM	Note, these stats are designed to fit into Kain's alternate cosmology. If the CO board looked at this, I wonder what's the lowest-level character they could build that would one-shot her...
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-18-07, 05:35 PM	If the CO board looked at this, I wonder what's the lowest-level character they could build that would one-shot her... 1st level; that's what they've got Pun-Pun down to.
Aluroon 11-18-07, 07:38 PM	If the CO board looked at this, I wonder what's the lowest-level character they could build that would one-shot her... They don't Invulnerability vs Common Sense: Common sense. No Mario Super Stars in Alternate world. If you aren’t in some sort of danger, there is no challenge. If there is no challenge, there is no XP. Billions (or even thousands) of damage vs Common Sense: Common sense. The gods will send allexi to deal with these things. All the gods. At the same time.
archerpwr 11-18-07, 11:00 PM	If the CO board looked at this, I wonder what's the lowest-level character they could build that would one-shot her... Pun pun if we allow it. Some level 21 monstrosity with epic spellcasting otherwise.
Kain_Darkwind 11-19-07, 12:05 AM	Pun pun if we allow it. Some level 21 monstrosity with epic spellcasting otherwise. Mmm....no. See, 'what you can do with the rules' and 'what you can do in the game' are actually different things. I'm not some mathophile that gets off on people combining formulas to produce a really high number.
CrimsonDeath 11-19-07, 12:19 AM	1st level; that's what they've got Pun-Pun down to. I thought that "aside from Pun-Pun" went without saying in most optimization challenges... They don't Mmm....no. See, 'what you can do with the rules' and 'what you can do in the game' are actually different things. I'm not some mathophile that gets off on people combining formulas to produce a really high number. Well, if you're not going to allow the players to defeat a creature/character regardless of what they do, what's the point of writing out stats?
Kain_Darkwind 11-19-07, 02:22 PM	I thought that "aside from Pun-Pun" went without saying in most optimization challenges... Well, if you're not going to allow the players to defeat a creature/character regardless of what they do, what's the point of writing out stats? In what sad reality do you reside, where you equate 'not letting broken rules tricks deal billions of damage' with 'not letting players defeat a creature regardless of what they do'? She has a CR, she can be defeated at roughly that level. Not at level 21, using stupid rules oversights like Pun-Pun. Epic needs an overhaul that it is never going to get in 3.5.
BillTheManiac 11-19-07, 02:33 PM	Mmm....no. See, 'what you can do with the rules' and 'what you can do in the game' are actually different things. I'm not some mathophile that gets off on people combining formulas to produce a really high number. But writing down really high numbers with DM power is OK? So, to defeat this poor creature we need a save-or-suck/die she isn't immune to or some kind of absurd damage-dishing. How much TO is allowed? None of it? All of it except PP? Because almost any campaign smasher would crush this thing in an instant, if we got the AB/DC high enough. Which we could.
Kain_Darkwind 11-19-07, 03:54 PM	But writing down really high numbers with DM power is OK? So, to defeat this poor creature we need a save-or-suck/die she isn't immune to or some kind of absurd damage-dishing. How much TO is allowed? None of it? All of it except PP? Because almost any campaign smasher would crush this thing in an instant, if we got the AB/DC high enough. Which we could. There's an expected ratio of power I don't expect you to bother looking at. LoP is what, 80HD? So her expected output of power is higher than say, a creature of 20HD. If you are dealing billions of damage at level 10 or 20 or 30, you are breaking the game. I don't care how you want to justify it, you are using loopholes and formulas to achieve stupidity that was not intended in a DnD campaign. The difference here is the claim. If someone said they could make a 500th level character that could kill the LoP (as statted), I don't care. Sure, I guess you could. A 500th level character should be able to kill anything I've statted in my campaign, from gods to archfiends to dragon lords. Probably a 200th level character could. When you claim that a 20th level character can kill it, I'm calling rules B.S. You are either using a broken rule or breaking the rule yourself. End of story. The rules system states that if the characters kill creatures more than 8 CR higher than they are, something odd has happened. If you are routinely doing so, then it is clear that dice rolls and poor DM (creature) tactics aren't the culprits. The DnD ruleset can be used for a lot of things. It can be used to produce absurdly high results with math formulas. However, that's something entirely different than what I use it for, which is 'playing a DnD campaign'. I'm not hating on the people who use it for the high numbers, but it doesn't play down that way in the game. Assuming I wished to justify not letting you do it in the game, I'd use an aleax, from multiple gods, to kill your character. Assuming I didn't and you just wished to disrupt the game, I'd throw you out. Again, to equate 'not letting you break the rules system' with 'not letting the players do anything' is utter horsepuck. That sob story will fall on ever deaf ears.
CrimsonDeath 11-19-07, 03:57 PM	In what sad reality do you reside, where you equate 'not letting broken rules tricks deal billions of damage' with 'not letting players defeat a creature regardless of what they do'? She has a CR, she can be defeated at roughly that level. Not at level 21, using stupid rules oversights like Pun-Pun. Epic needs an overhaul that it is never going to get in 3.5. I reside in a world where Theoretical Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=330) and Character Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) are different boards-- conveniently, the actual one. I'm comfortable with the Lady as written there being essentially impervious to level 21 characters, but maybe there's a not-really-cheesy-at-all way to take her down by level 60?
archerpwr 11-19-07, 04:02 PM	I reside in a world where Theoretical Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=330) and Character Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) are different boards-- conveniently, the actual one. I'm comfortable with the Lady as written there being essentially impervious to level 21 characters, but maybe there's a not-really-cheesy-at-all way to take her down by level 60? Here's my problem. 1-20 has a roughly exponential power escalation. Level 21 has a huge power bump with the first epic feat. Levels 21-30 give progressively less awe-inspiring epic feats. Power escalation is pretty linear after level 21. If something can be defeated at all with player power rather than wealth power (the only thing that remains roughly exponential in epic), it can be defeated at level 21 with the right amount of preparation.
Kain_Darkwind 11-19-07, 05:04 PM	I reside in a world where Theoretical Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=330) and Character Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) are different boards-- conveniently, the actual one. I'm comfortable with the Lady as written there being essentially impervious to level 21 characters, but maybe there's a not-really-cheesy-at-all way to take her down by level 60? If there is a way to take her down without cheese by level 60, that just means my estimated CR is off. And honestly, I don't have a real problem with high epic characters being capable of defeating gods or other high powered beings in single combat or such. Most of the power players in DnD aren't going to give you single combat, so their CR isn't entirely reflective of their actual challenge. It also should be stated that she was made years ago, at the outset of 3.5. I might evaluate her CR or her stats differently nowadays. I'll still stand by my statement that not allowing 21st level characters cheese that lets them one-shot the Lady isn't the same as keeping them from 'defeating her regardless of what they do'.
CrimsonDeath 11-19-07, 09:03 PM	I'll still stand by my statement that not allowing 21st level characters cheese that lets them one-shot the Lady isn't the same as keeping them from 'defeating her regardless of what they do'. And it wasn't my intention to imply that it ought to be possible.
Lord_of_Vain 11-19-07, 09:37 PM	Yea I guess that it's better that she doesn't have a stat sheet, she's a lot cooler that way.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-19-07, 11:36 PM	Yea I guess that it's better that she doesn't have a stat sheet, she's a lot cooler that way. Besides, giving something stats implies that you know what you're statting, while the Lady remains undefined (I speak for canon details, not for Dicefreaks if flavor accompanied their stats).
Kain_Darkwind 11-20-07, 05:00 AM	Besides, giving something stats implies that you know what you're statting, while the Lady remains undefined (I speak for canon details, not for Dicefreaks if flavor accompanied their stats). I always assumed she was left officially unstatted precisely so DMs could use her as they wished. I mean, if a DM wants her to be a 20th level party adversary and them to defeat her and take her stuff, that's fine. Nothing in the world wrong with that. And if he wants her to be an imprisoned overgod or the sentient defense system of the city, that's fine too. And the three little squirrels...they're ok in my book. Stats should reflect the details about the flavor. If your DM has no idea what she is, he probably shouldn't have stats for her.
BillTheManiac 11-20-07, 12:27 PM	Without DvR, I think the best you're going to get is a couple absurdly metamagiced spells. I'm going to say Arcane Thesis on a twinned repeat intensified enhanced orb of force, with lots of ISCs.
Jaimas 11-20-07, 01:48 PM	The Lady of Pain is a dumb concept that is blatantly Deus Ex, and is full of fail, if only because she was intentionally left unstatted whilst countless other creatures (including beings of awesome power) were. Anything allegedly invulnerable tempts PCs to try to destroy it, no matter how completely ridiculous it seems. It's a fuggin' law of D&D. Even the fact that she's unstatted hasn't stopped players from trying, either by outright causing Sigil's collapse somehow or some other bit of epic tomfoolery. She needs stats, if only to make her less desirable as a target. The fascination with keeping her unstatted hasn't stopped players from trying, nor has it stopped DMs from wanting her statted.
Jaimas 11-20-07, 02:09 PM	Edit: WTF is Pun-Pun? Detective Kun-Kun on drugs?
CrimsonDeath 11-20-07, 03:44 PM	Edit: WTF is Pun-Pun? Detective Kun-Kun on drugs? Depending on your point of view, Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) is either a state of mind or a miserable pile of numbers. Note that the build on the first page is obsolete. The last few pages of the thread explain repeatedly how Pun-Pun is achievable at level 1 with almost any race/class combination.
BillTheManiac 11-20-07, 05:25 PM	Depending on your point of view, Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) is either a state of mind or a miserable pile of numbers. Note that the build on the first page is obsolete. The last few pages of the thread explain repeatedly how Pun-Pun is achievable at level 1 with almost any race/class combination. Pun-Pun doesn't have any numbers! Infinity is not a number! I hate it when people refer to TO as "math" or "numbers". Most of it is D&D rules combos, which rarely use "formulas" at all.
CrimsonDeath 11-20-07, 06:40 PM	Pun-Pun doesn't have any numbers! Infinity is not a number! I hate it when people refer to TO as "math" or "numbers". Most of it is D&D rules combos, which rarely use "formulas" at all. Sorry. But then, Pun-Pun isn't really a man, so he's not exactly a miserable pile of secrets...
BillTheManiac 11-20-07, 07:48 PM	Sorry. But then, Pun-Pun isn't really a man, so he's not exactly a miserable pile of secrets... Pun-Pun is the product of the essential conflict in the 3rd edition design: Path A: Wacky monster abilities Path B: Letting players access monsters. That's his definition. It was based on an ability that KhanTheDestroyer found a way to make slightly more absurd then it already was (infinite ability scores vs. any ability).
CrimsonDeath 11-20-07, 08:00 PM	Pun-Pun is the product of the essential conflict in the 3rd edition design: Path A: Wacky monster abilities Path B: Letting players access monsters. That's his definition. It was based on an ability that KhanTheDestroyer found a way to make slightly more absurd then it already was (infinite ability scores vs. any ability). That's definitely a better summary than mine. I sacrificed information for an attempt at humor.
Kain_Darkwind 11-20-07, 09:05 PM	Pun-Pun doesn't have any numbers! Infinity is not a number! I hate it when people refer to TO as "math" or "numbers". Most of it is D&D rules combos, which rarely use "formulas" at all. I've certainly meant no disrespect to TO. I feel that people should be able to play and use DnD as they see fit. But just as I don't butt in to the TO boards (or the CO boards for that matter) screaming that my DM wouldn't let me do that stuff so you're all a bunch of munchkins, I don't think people should bust into threads screaming that my distaste of cheesy rules combos is hampering their play style. Or that a creature build for a cosmology where those cheesy rules aren't bothered for consideration is somehow vulnerable to the hundred and one pieces of cheese available. Or that Bahamut is a sissy because a Hulking Hurler could throw a boulder of plutonium at him. Btw, a formula does not need numbers. Whirlwind plus Cleave plus bag of rats was a formula.
CrimsonDeath 11-20-07, 10:27 PM	I've certainly meant no disrespect to TO. I feel that people should be able to play and use DnD as they see fit. But just as I don't butt in to the TO boards (or the CO boards for that matter) screaming that my DM wouldn't let me do that stuff so you're all a bunch of munchkins, I don't think people should bust into threads screaming that my distaste of cheesy rules combos is hampering their play style. Or that a creature build for a cosmology where those cheesy rules aren't bothered for consideration is somehow vulnerable to the hundred and one pieces of cheese available. Or that Bahamut is a sissy because a Hulking Hurler could throw a boulder of plutonium at him. And I didn't mean to imply that there's something wrong with a game where "campaign smashers" aren't allowed, and I apologize if that's what you thought I meant.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-21-07, 12:21 AM	Pun-Pun is the product of the essential conflict in the 3rd edition design: Path A: Wacky monster abilities Path B: Letting players access monsters. That's his definition. It was based on an ability that KhanTheDestroyer found a way to make slightly more absurd then it already was (infinite ability scores vs. any ability). I think the more basic conflict is allowing players all the options they want without it going overboard. It's a perilously thin line. Pun-Pun is the result of a clever combination of player options gaining incredible power. By the way, Kain, does DF have an official stance on the Lady of Pain to go with the stats? Just curious.
Kain_Darkwind 11-21-07, 01:20 AM	By the way, Kain, does DF have an official stance on the Lady of Pain to go with the stats? Just curious. As Serge said earlier in this thread, those stats are my personal ones and go along with my personal vision of the Lady of Pain. Not an official Dicefreak version and there isn't ever likely to be one. My official omniscient stance on her (that goes along with those stats) is that she is the persona of the Cage itself, although I waver between making her the prisoner or its guardian. Within the actual campaign setting though, no one knows what she is.
BillTheManiac 11-21-07, 08:59 AM	I think the more basic conflict is allowing players all the options they want without it going overboard. It's a perilously thin line. Pun-Pun is the result of a clever combination of player options gaining incredible power. By the way, Kain, does DF have an official stance on the Lady of Pain to go with the stats? Just curious. That's really omniscifier. Pun-Pun is mainly about the absurdity of Manipulate Form. Sarrukhs on their own can use it to aleax up invincible minions (targeting themselves with Singular Enemy), which is just insane. Pun-Pun is also the product of wealth cheese and the unbalancedness of WotC web material.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-21-07, 11:33 AM	That's really omniscifier. Pun-Pun is mainly about the absurdity of Manipulate Form. Sarrukhs on their own can use it to aleax up invincible minions (targeting themselves with Singular Enemy), which is just insane. Pun-Pun is also the product of wealth cheese and the unbalancedness of WotC web material. I agree on the Omniscifier, and that Manipulate Form is the singular problem. However, wealth cheese doesn't really factor into it, since scrolls are only necessary for the 1st-level 'ascension'. It's just Wildshape cheese and Metamorphic Transfer otherwise. I also wouldn't call the web material unbalanced just because of the Divine Minion. A lot of it's fine, at least on a ratio of unbalanced web material to unbalanced book material.
Witch 11-21-07, 01:34 PM	Manipulate Form Cheese isn't the only issue. Ice Assassin is almost as vital, and almost as imbalanced.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-21-07, 03:18 PM	Manipulate Form Cheese isn't the only issue. Ice Assassin is almost as vital, and almost as imbalanced. Well, thanks to Manipulate Form, Pun-Pun can grant himself all the traits of divinity, and all SLAs and other divine abilities (Heck, as EX abilities). Ice Assassin still is broken, though.
drakir_nosslin 11-22-07, 02:41 PM	Ignore post, found my answer higher up in the thread.
BillTheManiac 11-24-07, 05:58 PM	I agree on the Omniscifier, and that Manipulate Form is the singular problem. However, wealth cheese doesn't really factor into it, since scrolls are only necessary for the 1st-level 'ascension'. It's just Wildshape cheese and Metamorphic Transfer otherwise. I also wouldn't call the web material unbalanced just because of the Divine Minion. A lot of it's fine, at least on a ratio of unbalanced web material to unbalanced book material. Monstrous Crab anyone?
Lord_of_Vain 11-25-07, 12:10 PM	Ha, how is it that all these things somehow get turned into pun pun?
Kain_Darkwind 11-25-07, 12:23 PM	Ha, how is it that all these things somehow get turned into pun pun? Pun-Pun is the Godwin's Law of the Epic boards.
CrimsonDeath 11-25-07, 05:11 PM	Pun-Pun is the Godwin's Law of the Epic boards. CharOp and TOp boards, too.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-26-07, 06:52 PM	Let's face it: Godwin needs to add a collorary: When the discussion is about Dungeons and Dragons, Pun-Pun can be swapped for Hitler where necessary.
Witch 11-27-07, 07:18 PM	I found the overdeity stats for the Lady of Pain. Forgot who made them. http://miniworld.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=906
Kain_Darkwind 11-27-07, 09:58 PM	I found the overdeity stats for the Lady of Pain. Forgot who made them. http://miniworld.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=906 I believe the honor belongs to Phaedros.
BillTheManiac 11-28-07, 10:39 AM	Let's face it: Godwin needs to add a collorary: When the discussion is about Dungeons and Dragons, Pun-Pun can be swapped for Hitler where necessary. Doesn't that mean that the 100-page Pun-Pun thread on TO was over from the first post?
blodgett 11-28-07, 12:30 PM	Just to try to get back on topic (sorry Pun-Pun). I have always used the stats for the gods, whether 1st edition or 4th, as the stats of their avatars. When confronting the god itself, it can crush mortals with a thought, so it doesn't need stats. Only a being of equal or greater power can defeat it (and since, as DM I decide who that is), the PC's no matter how epic, just can't do it. The Lady of Pain has never used avatars. Ever. So no need for stats. She just doesn't interact with lesser beings. Makes life simple and preserves the mystery. Edit: Don't bother giving her a portfolio or standard "god" profile. She kills any one who worships her. The other option for those who cross her is to put them in the mazes. She does not grant spells to priests, nor does she allow worship of any kind. Period.
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 01:56 PM	Doesn't that mean that the 100-page Pun-Pun thread on TO was over from the first post? Not any more than the Nuremburg trials were over before they started. Pun-Pun only destroys conversations about other things. A conversation about Pun-Pun is still valid.
Witch 11-28-07, 02:55 PM	Just to try to get back on topic (sorry Pun-Pun). I have always used the stats for the gods, whether 1st edition or 4th, as the stats of their avatars. When confronting the god itself, it can crush mortals with a thought, so it doesn't need stats. Only a being of equal or greater power can defeat it (and since, as DM I decide who that is), the PC's no matter how epic, just can't do it. While that may be an option, I find that inadequately represent real world mythology.
blodgett 11-28-07, 03:53 PM	While that may be an option, I find that inadequately represent real world mythology. Actually it does, most heroes who killed gods were either Heroes (note the capital) and had the spark of divinity or were aided by gods themselves (even if they didn't know it at the time). The rest used items specifically created to kill gods or items known to be able kill gods. Thus they either had the spark of divinity stored in them or the power of belief powering them. When it comes to gods, I take the Terry Pratchett view. Gods are powered by belief, but so are a great many other things. The sword of kings may become, through belief so shiny that it catches the light with an audible ting or it just may become the quintessential sword. So worn looking that you might ignore it, but capable of taking an edge that lets it cut through stone. Neither sword would be magical in any way nor would anything detect it as magical, but both would hold a great deal of power. Mortals, no matter how powerful cannot kill a god. Only a god can do that. Even one who has not yet become a god. Thus there is a level below that of divinity, sort of a quasi-power if you will. These are the beings who go on to become gods, if they get enough belief or kill another god and steal their power. As DM, it is up to you to decide whether or not a PC has the spark of divinity or not. Is he a hero that is looked up to by thousands? Is he a villain feared by thousands? Both grant a great deal of belief and power to the character. There are examples in both D&D and the myths of heroes challenging the gods and winning. In some the gods actually stay dead. In others, the gods don't. Do you want to allow the PC to go around killing gods? If so, fine allow it. Use the stats as the stats for the gods themselves. Let the PC's kill them. And then deal with the consequences. Personally, I think the stats provided are underpowered for gods. Especially, millennia old beings who specialize in battle. Sure the god of knowledge might be a little weak in combat, but Thor shouldn't be as weak as he is. He should be able to tackle epic parties and give them a run for their money. But a decent, non-epic character can hold their own against him. Maybe not beat him, but hold their own. As for a party, they can take him down. And since I don't allow gods to leave their realms in person, they have to send an avatar if they want to visit anywhere else, this allows the PC's to challenge them if they want. Heck, many gods use avatars in their own realms. (See Expedition to the Demon Web if you don't believe me.) Ultimately, if you want to allow PC's to kill gods, go ahead. It's your game and your world. Me, I see gods, especially in their own realms, as nearly omnipotent beings. I don't see the need to have my PC's challenging them at every turn. I also don't see the need to have the gods interfering with my PC's at every turn. Just my thoughts.
Witch 11-28-07, 04:24 PM	Actually it does, most heroes who killed gods were either Heroes (note the capital) and had the spark of divinity or were aided by gods themselves (even if they didn't know it at the time). The rest used items specifically created to kill gods or items known to be able kill gods. Thus they either had the spark of divinity stored in them or the power of belief powering them. [QUOTE]Mortals, no matter how powerful cannot kill a god. Only a god can do that. Even one who has not yet become a god. Thus there is a level below that of divinity, sort of a quasi-power if you will. These are the beings who go on to become gods, if they get enough belief or kill another god and steal their power. I take another position. I find that mortals can matter. There can be mortals more powerful than some gods. The power increase line does not go: Mortal ---------------> God. Rather, it goes: Mortal ---------------------> .....................God------------------------> As DM, it is up to you to decide whether or not a PC has the spark of divinity or not. Is he a hero that is looked up to by thousands? Is he a villain feared by thousands? Both grant a great deal of belief and power to the character. There are examples in both D&D and the myths of heroes challenging the gods and winning. In some the gods actually stay dead. In others, the gods don't. I don't think it's necessary to add a touch of the divine to allow a mortal to undo that which is divine. Do you want to allow the PC to go around killing gods? If so, fine allow it. Use the stats as the stats for the gods themselves. Let the PC's kill them. And then deal with the consequences. What consequences? I don't have PCs becoming epic without good justification. Personally, I think the stats provided are underpowered for gods. Especially, millennia old beings who specialize in battle. Sure the god of knowledge might be a little weak in combat, but Thor shouldn't be as weak as he is. He should be able to tackle epic parties and give them a run for their money. But a decent, non-epic character can hold their own against him. Maybe not beat him, but hold their own. As for a party, they can take him down. I'll just clarify that I use DF rebuilt deities, which are... more powerful than the D&Dg versions, even though they have roughly the same amount of hit dice. Ultimately, if you want to allow PC's to kill gods, go ahead. It's your game and your world. Me, I see gods, especially in their own realms, as nearly omnipotent beings. I don't see the need to have my PC's challenging them at every turn. I also don't see the need to have the gods interfering with my PC's at every turn. Just my thoughts. Gods have never been portrayed as omnipotent save in the hierarchic forms of the polytheistic system, or in monotheistic systems (and even there, have sometimes been depicted limited in power.)
blodgett 11-29-07, 10:30 AM	We'll just have to agree to disagree. And I never said mortals don't matter. If mortals don't believe in the gods, the gods die. (For a great example of this, read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett). Mortals provide the Faith that gods use for their power. If they stop believing, the gods diminish in power. If they all die, the god dies. Further, they shape the appearance and abilities of the god are defined by their worshippers (Terry Pratchett has a god of wisdom accompanied by a penguin which is the result of a bad sculpture). So yes, mortals matter a great deal. I just don't think that they can kill gods (at least not directly).