Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NinjaPenguin 07-08-07, 07:01 AM	Lets assume for a moment that I have implemented a system for creating Epic Maneuvers based on the Epic Spellcasting variant system by Feanmerc on Dicefreaks. It seems readily adaptable to making Maneuver-based 'seeds' for Epic Maneuvers. However, how would one learn, ready, and initiate epic maneuvers? Would you need a special feat 'Improved Initiating' to be able to learn and ready 10th and higher maneuvers, needing one additional instance of the feat for each higher level thereafter? Would Initiator level be relevant to the level of maneuver you could learn at that point? Would you ready and initiate an epic maneuver like a normal one for your class, or would it require special rules? For example As a Warblade 21 with Improved Initiator once I have one 10th level epic maneuver I have researched (call it Big 10). I'm going to assume that this allows me to go over the limit of 13 maneuvers known at this level, and I also assume that Readied Maneuvers and Maneuvers Known do not automatically increase after 20th level, similar to how spells do not. Now, since I can ready 7 Maneuvers at this level, would I then ready Big 10 as normal in one of my 7 maneuver slots and initiate and recover it as normal for a Warblade? Would Big 10 have a number of Maneuvers of its Discipline (assumed to be the same Discipline as the dominant maneuver seed of those comprising the maneuver) as a prerequisite? For example, if Big Ten is a Setting Sun maneuver, should I need X Setting Sun maneuvers to learn it? Should I be allowed to only use Maneuver Seeds from disciplines my class gives me access to? On a related note, should there be feats that allow additional Readied and Known maneuvers at epic levels in a similar vein of Epic Spell Knowledge and its ilk? I mean, in a sense, not limited to any one class, like Extra Readied Maneuver is to Swordsage? I'm sure I'm not the first to ask these questions, but I'd really be interested to find a way to take martial adepts into epic levels in a balanced fashion. They seem like they have to potential to halfway keep up with the Epic Spellcasters this way.
Balthanon 07-08-07, 05:31 PM	The way I plan on handling it if it should come up is doing the same thing that Epic Spellcasting does and making it dependent upon ranks in a knowledge skill. Personally, I favor knowledge (history) as the controlling skill (with Martial Lore obviously being the Spellcraft equivalent). It might make more sense for the martial adept system to make the maneuvers known dependent on the knowledge ranks and then just have a single "readied" slot to start though. Additional slots could probably be gained with epic feats.
Witch 07-08-07, 05:38 PM	The way I plan on handling it if it should come up is doing the same thing that Epic Spellcasting does and making it dependent upon ranks in a knowledge skill. Why?
NinjaPenguin 07-08-07, 06:22 PM	Well, I'm assuming I'm using the Dicefreaks system, which is eliminating the Knowledge (X) component, eliminating the Epic Spellcasting feat entirely, and using an equation to turn Spelcraft DC X into actual spell level (X/10)+7. This integrates epic spellcasting with the normal spellcasting system, allowing metamagic and actual, real spells to full those upper-level spell slots beyond 9th, rather than just meta'd lower level spells. It also allows you to base new epic seeds off of existing spells according to a formula similar to 'behind the curtain' in the ELH So a Martial Lore DC 100 epic maneuver using whatever seeds and factors would become a 17th level maneuver. This would, in theory, require you to take Improved Initiating feat 8 times, much like a spellcaster would need Improved Spellcasting. This seems... awkward, though, since martial adepts don't actually have 'slots' like casters do, so having access to 10th level maneuvers in general means nothing without actually developing maneuvers of that level. They don't have 'meta-maneuver' feats that make maneuvers higher level, for example, so this implementation seems to be lacking. Somehow we'd have to determine -how- a martial adept gains 10+ level maneuvers. I've had a similar but simpler issue adapting Dicefreaks Epic system to psionics. Noting for a moment, of course, that at 20-30th level, the Adept will have anywhere from 1 to 3 Epic maneuvers, the developing of them being so dang -expensive-, they will still not be able to fill their entire readied maneuvers with epic maneuvers until high epic, where its -expected- that powerful things liek that will happen. And of course the Warblade continues to have Iron Heart Surge readied at all times. :P
Witch 07-08-07, 06:44 PM	Well, I'm assuming I'm using the Dicefreaks system, which is eliminating the Knowledge (X) component, eliminating the Epic Spellcasting feat entirely, and using an equation to turn Spelcraft DC X into actual spell level (X/10)+7. Just for the sake of information, this isn't the Dicefreaks system. Dicefreaks uses the official epic spellcasting mechanic; what you're talking about is Feanmerc, which is developed by a pair of designers at that site.
NinjaPenguin 07-08-07, 07:01 PM	That was the name! Thank you very much. I'd remembered seeing the system on Dicefreaks, so I just kinda assumed. Yeah, the Feanmerc System it is. I did say that I didn't know who to credit it too before. Thank you. Credit where credit is due for this awesome idea for revision of the system. IN any event, yes, that is the system I'm using. Sorry for confusion. (Edits original post)
Balthanon 07-08-07, 09:36 PM	Why? Requiring ranks in knowledge (history) for knowledge of warfare and tactics seems equivalent to knowledge (arcana) and (religion) for arcane and divine spellcasting. In general, it seems like the easiest method of keeping the power increase at approximately the same level. Another option might be using the signature skills for one of the nine schools, but having it more generic than that seems appropriate. At any rate, I wasn't familiar with the system mentioned-- I just assumed it set up a seed system since the original poster was asking about how to determine readied slots. This wouldn't apply if it eliminates that entirely.
NinjaPenguin 07-09-07, 05:05 AM	Brief summary of the system: 1) Create epic spell as normal, using the epic seeds printed, as well as being able to convert any currently existing spell into a seed by use of the formula in 'Behind the Curtain' in the ELH. 2) Convert the Spellcraft DC into an equivalent spell level via Level = (DC / 10) + 7. This is that spell's level, it is prepared normally in that level spell slot. DCs can't go below 30 as spells below 10th level can't be made with this system. Metamagic can be applied to it and everything. In this system certain factors and mitigators are slightly different, but the basic concept is, rather than needing ranks in Knowledge (foo), you just need to have a high enough spell slot, usually via Improved Spellcasting. Also, you no longer need to make a Spellcraft check to cast the spell itself. All you need to do is spend the time, cash, and XP, which is a non-trivial cost.
Balthanon 07-09-07, 11:56 AM	In that case, an Improved Initiating feat seems like the most balanced way to handle the system. Maneuvers improve at the same rate as spells, so it makes sense that you could do something along those lines.
IceFractal 07-09-07, 02:35 PM	The problem is making an Improved Initiating feat worthwhile - Improved Spell Capacity actually gives you several slots (because of extras from a high stat bonus), and those slots are immediately useful as long as you have Metamagic feats. So a direct conversion would be quite tedious for the martial adepts. Three possibilities: 1) You have to take the feat for a manuever level before you can take it for the next level (the way ISC works). On taking the feat, you learn an Epic manuever of that level, at no cost besides taking the feat. 2) You must both take the feat and pay the research costs to learn an Epic manuever, but the feat doesn't have to be taken for each level in order. You could, for instance, just take it once to learn a 15th level manuever. There'd be an IL requirement based on the manuever level, of course. 3) You must both take the feat and pay the research costs to learn an Epic manuever, and you must take this feat for each manuever level before taking the next one, but you also learn a new non-epic manuever every time you take this feat. As for having seperate "Epic" manuever slots, I don't think it's necessary - just make the prerequisites for Improved Initiating such that they can't fill all their slots with Epic manuevers until a suitably high level. Now as for Epic stances, I'd say that those could be developed the same way, but they should be usable simultaneously with a non-Epic stance, so as not to render all of those obsolete.
Balthanon 07-09-07, 04:57 PM	The problem is making an Improved Initiating feat worthwhile - Improved Spell Capacity actually gives you several slots (because of extras from a high stat bonus), and those slots are immediately useful as long as you have Metamagic feats. So a direct conversion would be quite tedious for the martial adepts. Now as for Epic stances, I'd say that those could be developed the same way, but they should be usable simultaneously with a non-Epic stance, so as not to render all of those obsolete. I wouldn't try and accomodate for the extra slots that spellcasters get with their feat-- being able to use the epic maneuver as many times in a day as they like more than compensates for that. Just have it open up the next maneuver level and give them a new "epic maneuver known" that they can research-- they can get additional readied maneuvers through a feat or something of that nature. That said, I don't really see a problem with #2-- though if you wanted to make a mix of that, you could place prerequisites of epic maneuvers known on certain seeds or uses of seed. For the stances, I would say that if you want them to be useable while in another stance, that should be a separate epic feat.
NinjaPenguin 07-09-07, 07:34 PM	Hmmm... Lots of good ideas there. Feat: Epic Maneuver [Epic] You retreat into practice and meditation to research ancient martial texts and develop your own unique addition to the upper echelons of your martial discipline. Prerequisite: Able to initiate a 9th level maneuver, Martial Lore 24 ranks Benefit: You may research one epic maneuver, paying all gold, XP, and time costs as normal. This maneuver becomes one of your normal maneuvers known for all intents and purposes. The level of this maneuver is limited to a maximum of (IL - 1)/2. Thus, a level 21 Warblade could research a 10th level maneuver, while a level 41 warblade could research up to a level 20 maneuver. This maneuver may be a boost, strike, counter, stance, or 'other' as the seeds dictate. If you have multiple martial adept classes with IL 21+, you much choose which class to add this maneuver to at the time of research. Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. Each time you do so, you may research one more epic maneuver. You must know the 9th level maneuver of a discipline to research an epic maneuver of that discipline. Feat: Yet Another Readied Maneuver [Epic] You may ready one additional maneuver when you ready your maneuvers. Prerequisite: Ability to initiate 9th level maneuvers. Benefit: Choose one martial adept class for which you know at least one 9th level maneuver. You may ready one additional maneuver from that class. Special: You may take this feat more than once. If you added this readied maneuver to the Crusader class, you also gain one additional granted maneuver. Feat: Multimaneuver [Epic] Your boosts and counters flow more easily from you. Prerequisite: Able to initiate 9th level maneuvers Benefit: You gain one additional swift action each round. When it is not your turn, as long as you have any swift actions left to you during your next turn, you may use an immediate action, losing one swift action from your next turn. This extra swift or immediate action can only be used to initiate a maneuver with the appropriate initiating time (such as a boost or counter). Special: You may take this feat more than once. Feat: Martial Prowess [Epic] Your strikes come swift and deadly Prerequisite: Able to initiate 9th level maneuvers, Martial Lore 27 ranks, Dexterity 21 Benefit: Once per round, when making a full attack action, you may replace one of your normal melee attacks with a strike with an initiating time of '1 standard action'. Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat you may replace one additional attack per round with a standard-action maneuver. Feat: Lord of the Stance [Epic] You master the ability to combine various stances in combat. Prerequisites: Able to initiate 9th level maneuvers, Martial Lore 30 ranks, Concentration 20 ranks, Dexterity 25, Intelligence 20 Benefit: When you initiate a stance, you may initiate one additional stance with the same swift action. When you change stances, you may change any number of the stances you have active with the same swift action. Special: You may NOT take this feat more than once. What are you, crazy? This does, however, stack with the Stance Mastery ability. Martial Prowess might be a bit over the top, but it is Epic, after all. This is just a rough draft of a few ideas that seem to make sense. Prereqs are subject to change, benefits may be tweaked, etcetera. Look good? Edit: Removed 'You may use the same maneuver more than once during the same full attack action this way.' from Martial Prowess, added new prereqs.
Balthanon 07-09-07, 07:51 PM	Martial Prowess might be a bit over the top, but it is Epic, after all. This is just a rough draft of a few ideas that seem to make sense. Prereqs are subject to change, benefits may be tweaked, etcetera. Look good? I would actually up the prerequisites a bit on Martial Prowess-- something more like 24th or 27th level to begin qualifying. I also would take out the ability to use the same maneuver more than once-- it's more interesting if you're stringing together a series of different maneuvers anyway. :) Kind of like a really, really impressive kata. Lord of the Stance should probably be 27th level as well, and I would actually put some fairly high ability scores on it-- maybe Dexterity 25, Intelligence 20, and Concentration 30.
NinjaPenguin 07-09-07, 08:05 PM	Ability scores! I know I was forgetting something. Editing in progress... Would Martial Lore make more sense than Concentration, seeing as how Concentration is a discipline-specific skill, and all the Metamagic and spell-modifying feats are based on Spellcraft, an equivalent skill?
Balthanon 07-09-07, 08:31 PM	Ability scores! I know I was forgetting something. Editing in progress... Would Martial Lore make more sense than Concentration, seeing as how Concentration is a discipline-specific skill, and all the Metamagic and spell-modifying feats are based on Spellcraft, an equivalent skill? For a dual stance feat, I think concentration is fairly appropriate-- you're simultaneously pushing your body to do two separate things constantly. That takes a lot of focus. I wasn't actually considering it from a discipline-related skill point of view.
NinjaPenguin 07-09-07, 08:44 PM	Hmm... I see your point. Perhaps use Martial Lore skill to set the effective 'level' of the feat, and have a secondary requirement in Concentration ranks. Martial Lore 30, Concentration 20 ranks perhaps? Interestingly enough, Concentration is a class skill for all three martial adept classes. Go figure. :)
Balthanon 07-09-07, 09:19 PM	Most martial arts have some form of meditation and focus techniques I believe-- I imagine it is probably due to that. Knowledge (history) is another one that I think all three of them have that is a bit out of the ordinary. Again though, it's the knowledge of tactics and warfare that all three of the classes should be familiar with as masters of the sublime way. For multimaneuver, you might want to tweak the prerequisites to make it much easier for the swordsage to qualify for it (since it is more or less a better version of the capstone ability of the class). Maybe something like 7 or 8 boosts or counters known. For a warblade or crusader, that is about half of their maneuvers, which is probably unlikely. For a swordsage, that is a bit more reasonable, since its only a third of their maneuvers, plus they have a better selection.
NinjaPenguin 07-09-07, 09:38 PM	Actually, Multimaneuver looks like it could get kind of sick with Double Boost. Since Double Boost essentially says 'When you initiate a boost, you can initiate another one as a free action', a Swordsage with Multi would be a ble to initiate FOUR boosts in a round... That's actually pretty cool. But I'm not sure they should get it any easier because of that, since they also get more benefit from it.
Balthanon 07-09-07, 10:43 PM	Hmm... good point. I didn't realize it was worded quite that way. That does make the feat step on toes a bit less. :)
NinjaPenguin 07-09-07, 11:12 PM	I tried to avoid stepping on toes as much as possible, hence the Lord of the Stance working well with the existing Warblade ability as well. Seems liks a bit of asymmetry, though. I don't think I have a feat that is good in general, but is especially good for Crusaders. Unless you count the small benefit from Yet Another Readied Maneuver.
Balthanon 07-10-07, 09:09 AM	That's mainly because they don't really have a "capstone" ability I think. Steely resolve 30 is only a little better than Steely resolve 25. Of course, on the other hand, it does continue advancing in epic levels-- probably along with the smites of the crusader. Swordsages just have quick to act that would really advance given that the pattern for disicipline focus is interupted by the 20th level and Warblades have nothing that would actually advance.
NinjaPenguin 07-10-07, 06:04 PM	And now for something completely different. Epic progressions of the Martial Adept classes to put things in perspective. Epic Class Progressions: -------- Crusader -------- Steely Resolve: Every 4 levels the Crusader progresses beyond 20th her delayed damage pool increases by 5 points. Smite: Every 12 levels the Crusader progresses beyond 18th she gains another use of her Smite ability (Meh, just take Extra Smiting) Bonus Feats: The Crusader gains a bonus Epic feat at 23rd level and every 3 levels thereafter. New feat: Extra Resolve [Epic] You can shrug off more grievous wounds for a time by sheer determination. Prerequisites: Steely Resolve 30, Charisma 24 Benefit: Your delayed damage pool increases by 5 points. Special: You may take this feat more than once. Its effects stack. New feat: Extended Resolve [Epic] Your steadfast will to continue fighting sustains you for longer Prerequisites: Steely Resolve 30, Charisma 27 Benefit: Your delayed damage pool persists for one additional round before emptying into normal hit point damage. Your delayed damage pool still can't hold more total damage in it than the listed maximum at one time. Special: You may take thei feat more than once. Its effects stack. ---------- Swordsage ---------- Quick to Act: Every 5 levels a Swordsage progresses beyond 20th she adds an additional +1 to the bonus granted by this ability. Bonus Feats: The Swordsage gains a bonus Epic feat at 22nd level and every 2 levels thereafter. New feat: Extra Discipline Focus [Epic] Your dedication to the martial disciplines continues to improve. Prerequisites: Swordsage 21, Wisdom 24 Benefit: Select a discipline focus benefit (weapon focus, insightful strikes, or defensive stance) and a discipline in which you know at least one maneuver and in which you do not already have that focus benefit. You gain the selected benefit applied to the chosen discipline. Special: You make take this feat more than once. Each time you must choose a focus/discipline combination you do not already have. --------- Warblade --------- Bonus Feats: The Warblade gains a bonus Epic feat at 22nd level and every 2 levels thereafter. New Feat: Epic Battle Mastery [Epic] Your insight into the way of the blade gives you surges of prowess at key moments. Prerequisites: Warblade 21, Intelligence 24 Benefit: Once per encounter you may add your Intelligence bonus as an insight bonus to any one of the following: your armor class against one attack; any one attack roll; any one saving throw; any one damage roll; or any one opposed check involved in a combat action. Note: Insight bonuses do not stack with each other, so this ability will not stack with your Warblade 'Battle' abilities. Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you do you may use this ability one additional time per encounter.