Looking for Ideas [Archive] - Wizards Community

Looking for Ideas [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Acrid
05-28-07, 12:10 AM Well I have not posted here yet baout my current campaign but i fifgured it was time.

Atm i am playing in an epoc level gestalt game.

We have me a swordsgae/ruby knight vindicator, a solar with some warbalde levels, an enlightened fist/sorcerer/ a gold dragon, dragon ascendant, an arcane archer, and a warblade that does mainly whtie raven,a nd charging.

The party is roughly lvl 24, with a few below, and a few above that.

Each person is taking turns beign hte DM, and making new monsters.

I was tryign to think of what to throw at them,a nd am drawing a blank.

All books are available, and we do not use epic spellcasting, and i am lookign for roughly a cr27-28 encounter, or jsut ideas tha ti cna build off of.

ANy ideas? Thanks in advance for any help
Acrid
05-29-07, 12:18 PM No ideas at all guys?
rob_douglas
05-29-07, 06:11 PM It's not that we don't have any ideas - we are rife with them, but your request is too open-ended.

For me, I prefer to plan out a set of epic adventures culminating in a major battle. You come up with a theme. Fighting epic creatures should be more than just slugging it out. Part of the task is in finding out what they are, and where they come from, what they want, and what their weaknesses are.

With an epic campaign, usually it is not so much the DM deciding what to throw at them, but them deciding which part of the multiverse to affect with their awesome might next, and the DM providing the challenges based on that.

If you want some ideas from me, the first things I would need to know are:

What do the PCs want? Is there an item, ability, or experience they want to have? Or even that just one of them wants to have that he can convince the others to come along?

What are they willing to do to get it? I assume they are all good, so that is a help - you know that they won't likely steal and kill aimlessly. Is there some way though that you could set up a conflict in them where they have to give up something to get what they want - either something valuable, ro someone they care about....

Do they have any enemies on par with them? Is there someone who may or may not know them personally, but who could be directing forces against the party? The party could be going after the bad guy, defending themselves from him and his minions, or working toward the same goal in indirect opposition to this enemy.

What are the/some great mysteries of your world.

I think that is enough to get us started, if you want to respond to that.

You could also go through the 100 Epic Adventure Ideas table in the ELH, or checkout the Epic Seeds on the Greyhawk board listed in my signature. Or check out this great thread 1001 Epic Adventure Ideas (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=113432).

ROB
Acrid
05-29-07, 07:13 PM Wellt he general idea is this.

We started the campaign with lvl 31 evil gestalts. ANd that got tiring real quick. SO we decided to mae lower level good versions of ourselves, that would at some point go against the evil versions. That is our main goal.

For now we are working for the church and three fo us are saints for said church, and we are goign around and destorying evil through out the land.

Our last battle got us our first few artifacts plus a few epic items. SO we are just startign to power up some.

SO in essence their main goal is to become powerful enough to destroy the evil uses.

SO encounters that we make are designed to help us gian levels, test our abilities, gain items(nothign particular), and have fun with our overpowered characters.

I am nto sure if thats exactly what you wer elookign for, aand i cna elaborate more if needed. Thanks for the Reply

Acrid
rob_douglas
05-30-07, 03:25 PM Well, in that case, it looks like you want to just fight some evil beasties. Then I do suggest looking at the link I gave above, or this one: 25 Epic Greyhawk Adventure Ideas (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1090)
One that comes to mind as being appropriate quickly is this from the 1001 Epic Adventures:
2. An advanced solar has succumbed to temptation and joined forces with the lords of the Nine Hells. The players
are approached by divine agents who beg their help to convince their fallen friend to return to the light, or put him
down if they have no other choice.
There is a great fallen solar available from Gren Ronin in Legions of Hell, and updated in Book of Fiends and the Epic Bestiary. He is a 50-HD advanced Solar with a Fallen Celestial template, and an artifact sword. If you can't find those references, the template basically changes all good abilities to evil versions. He also gains a Fear aura. He resides on the first layer of Hell, so you can go there to get him. Maybe fight a few powerful dragons of Tiamat, maybe a consort or 2, have a run-in with Bel's lieutenant, and an army of advanced, classed devils en route.

Here is another: 46) Two extraplanar gates have opened on a large island. One leads into the infinite Abyss, and one into the pit of
Hell. The sudden onslaught of the Blood War onto the Prime Material Plane would be bad enough, but several
prophecies surround this island, and none of them end pleasantly...

or this:
132 No Godmother this time: The PCs find themselves on what is quite possibly a different world, as it has a new
cast of epics and powerbrokers. Quite coincidentally, all hell is breaking lose in the wake of the heir to the throne of
this land being locked in an epic version of Temporal Stasis. Can the PCs deal with the epic sorcerer/air elemental
savant werewolf threatening to blow away the wealthiest merchants of the land, liberate the powerful artifacts they
need from the Giant King's flying castle, convince a powerful and vain epic sorceress to let them use her divining
magic mirror, and still rescue the princess from the clutches of the Hag Countess, exiled from Baator?

Those were jus some quick ideas I saw that might be to your liking. You could also go with the idea of invading a Necropolis that is under the control of an Atropal. The party should be able to whisk through most of the lesser undead, which are there in legions, but as they get closer, they have to deal with Advanced Nightshades (with the ability to disarm and destroy magic weapons!), a death knight or skeletal warrior, lich or demilich, and finally to the Atropal.

What resources do you have that you might plumb - such as published adventures, Dungeon magazine issues, or other d20 products? Many times you can take a high level idea, and bump it up to epic level.

When do you need this ready by, and how long do you want it to take?

ROB
Acrid
05-30-07, 03:48 PM As for materials i have all Wotc books, We rarely use psionics, and liek i said we do not use epic spell casting. ANythign i do not have, i am sure i cna get my hands on somehow

As for when i need it by, there is no deadline, for now we jsut do what encounter everyone has ready.

AS for length, the problem we are realising, is that msot thigns we can kill in one or two rounds. SO lookign for soemthign that can survive, the first onslaught.

Thanks for the ideas so far rob, i am definitly gonns look into some of those.

AS far as the evil solar, you siad it has 50 HD, do you have any idea of what its CR is?

ANd where can i find Atropal?
rob_douglas
05-30-07, 05:20 PM Atropal is in the ELH or the SRD, under Abominations. The 50-HD Solar was originally listed as CR 24, but that was a mistake, and it is really CR 35. You should increase SR by the same +14 that you increase the SR, and probably increase the caster level of its spells as well. You could use a smaller one - maybe 36HD (CR 28).

As for surviving, the things that you are fighting need to take some advantages. Like knowing you are coming - they could have high spot/listen and minions on the ethereal to warn you - plus access to anticipate teleport spells so they can even delay the party's arrival. Minions are a good way to extend the life of a major enemy as well - because they can block some of the attacks. Also consider making them highly mobile - Quicken Spell-like ability (Greater Teleport) is very worthwhile, as is a dragon mount. There is a section in the ELH on page 109 that you should definitely read - on designing intelligent adversaries. As a matter of fact, please read chapter 3 entirely, it is only 20 pages and will help a WHOLE lot.

If you pick something you want to go with, I would be happy to keep helping as time allows. If you can get ahold of any Dungeon magazines, start looking through them for the "Map of Mystery" and see if you can find one that you could use as a home base for your creation.

Good luck, and let us know what you need next. If anyone else has any ideas - please join in.

ROB
Acrid
05-30-07, 05:42 PM Thanks rob you have been a huge help. I am goign to go through all of those nad see what i like, though the city of undead, with an atropal at the top seems awesome.

WHile we ar eont he topic my character is as follows
Human Saint Swordsage 20/Barbarian 3//Paladin of freedom 5/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 4/RKV 9/Battle Dancer 1

Basically i do 1 of 2 things.

1. Use shadow hand maneuvers, and stone dragon maneuvers to ability drain them, and do a lot of damage(i have an artificat spear that is sizing, and hte first attack amd eiwht it every round is a touch attack.)

2. Or i size it down to small, pull out my woundign dagger, and nova with time stands still, raging mongoose, and RKV to keep gettign new swift actions and maneuvers, getting a ton fo attacks.

SOrcerer 4 is for wraith strike when i nova.

My question is this, the 3 bar barian levels, and 1 battle dancer were jsut kidn fo thrown on, not sure what else to do.

ANy ideas ont hat as well?

Will start working ont he monsters tonight.

Thanks again
bluemage55
05-30-07, 06:54 PM Your build has no epic bonus feats, which is a major red flag.

Many of the abilities that you get for dipping are not as good as epic feats that you can get instead.
Acrid
05-30-07, 08:12 PM any suggestions to change it bluemage?
Rikandur_Azebol
05-31-07, 12:03 AM Use Wish to swap barbarian and battle-dancer back to swordsage. It will grant You epic bonus feats. :)
Acrid
05-31-07, 12:19 AM Are there epic rules for ToB anywhere?
Acrid
05-31-07, 01:20 AM 19) A king in a far away land, a 30th level Paladin, suddenly finds he has an amount of power over the dead, as if he were an equally powerful Necromancer. Hordes of potent undead such as liches and demi-liches begin to flock to him, unaffected by turning and intent on converting his kingdom into something more appropriate for their unwilling "new god."

I liek this one, as an atropal might be to much for the party i think..

But one of the evil versions of us is a Necromancer, so do not want to make it to close.

ANy ideas for minions?
bluemage55
05-31-07, 03:09 AM I have a question about your build. You suggest that you can get a ton of attacks by expending swift actions using RPK. However, that doesn't address the problem that will arise because you can only use those maneuvers once before you have to spend a full round recovering one.
Acrid
05-31-07, 09:11 AM RKV lets you burn a turning attempt as a free action to get anotehr swift action, You can then burn a turning attempt as a swift action to get a maneuver back, i usually get raging mongoose, then get another sift action by burnign another turning attempt, and raging mongoose again.

raging mongoose lets me get 2 more attacks with each weapon, i use two weapons so four attacks.

rinse wash and repeat
bluemage55
05-31-07, 09:22 AM And how are you allowed to expend a swift action to get a maneuver back? There's the Sudden Recovery feat, but that's only usable once per day.
Acrid
05-31-07, 11:04 AM its an ability of RKV

At 2nd level you get the ability to expend a turn or rebue undead attempt as a swift action to get back an expended maneuver
bluemage55
05-31-07, 12:19 PM I see. In that case, I would suggest the following build:

Cleric 3/Swordsage 7/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

As you gain epic levels, put them into RBV to simultaneously improve your initiator level and caster level, and to pick up bonus feats.

The epic progression of RKV should probably grant a bonus feat every four levels after 20th.
Acrid
05-31-07, 06:52 PM well that would lose me BAB liek crazy, and i have swordsage 20 on the other side

so how does htat work at all?
Acrid
06-05-07, 12:03 AM bump
bluemage55
06-05-07, 02:52 AM well that would lose me BAB liek crazy, and i have swordsage 20 on the other side

so how does htat work at all?

What are you talking about? The build I posted has a BAB of +19 pre-epic!
Acrid
06-05-07, 11:29 AM neither swordage or cleric are ful BAB progression, so how is that possible?
bluemage55
06-05-07, 04:20 PM neither swordage or cleric are ful BAB progression, so how is that possible?

For some reason I thought swordsage was full BAB.

In that case your pre-epic BAB is still +16, which means you're only down 4 total.
Acrid
06-05-07, 05:04 PM and meas i onyl get 3 attacks with each hand

when i kidn fo require 4 attacks
rob_douglas
06-05-07, 05:27 PM If your pre-epic BAB is +16, you get 4 iterative attacks. With Perfect 2/multi-weapon fighting, that is 4 per hand.

ROB
Acrid
06-05-07, 05:57 PM rob, thanka gain for the help

did you see the encounter i decided on?

and if so do you have any ideas for me?
rob_douglas
06-05-07, 10:51 PM Yeah I did - very interesting. That one has intrigued me - though I thought you still weren't sure because of the necromantic angles. But if you go with the Paladin king becoming the object of evil worship, it gets interesting. OK, he should be an old king, well past his prime and in the twilight of his years. If you use Greyhawk, Belvor IV would work for him. If not, the following should help: Belvor is the last of his line. His son Thrommel was due to marry the daughter of the neighboring patriarchy, but he was kidnapped and went missing. Eventually it was discovered (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) that Thrommel had been turned into a vampire and had to be destroyed. This is the seed that allows the evil in the adventure seed you quoted to enter. Belvor at first wants control over his own life and virility, as he hopes to sire a new heir. When that proves not to work, as he continues to age, something enters him and merges with his soul - I still think an Atropal - or a direct servant of Nerull, as the party won't get to it for quite a while. But anyway, this merger is subtle at first. A few undead begin to appear, then more powerful ones. Eventually Orcus becomes aware of what is going on, and wants to harness the power. So he or an avatar of him might make an appearance at some point, depending on the stats you might use. But before he does, there is another interested party. The demi-lich Acererak had tried to merge with all undead everywhere once, and his consciousness still floats free, so he too will come to learn of this unexplained control over undead, only to find himself put under its influence. Acererak invented the Winterwights, but he must have known about the Shadow of the Voids and Shapes of Fire too, so he pulls them in.

So you start with a few random reanimations, then include more undead, a few Nightwalkers. Perhaps some undead giants in the form of Hulking Corpses. None of this is a serious threat to the party, but it is to the villages in the way, and they need to stop multiple outbreaks. The undead all seem to be headed to the capitol, where thousands upon thousands are gathering. The King is lost in contemplation, trying to call his dead son back to him, which is why the undead are all drawn to him. Death Knights, and Liches perhaps have come to pay him homage and try to "help" and they try to keep the PCs away from the king. If the party can get to him, and use Diplomacy or force to stop his prayers, they can put off the danger. Acererak will unleash the Winterwights, and eventually the Atropal might come out, or Orcus's avatar, or Nerull's.

ROB
Acrid
06-06-07, 06:22 AM tanks rob,, that is awesome

is acerak jsut somethign you made up, or an actuall guy?

and if so where can i find him

And should i make the king straight paladin, or add other stuff?
bluemage55
06-06-07, 07:02 AM Acererak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acererak)
rob_douglas
06-06-07, 02:52 PM Well done Blue - I keep forgetting how much classic stuff is in Wikipedia.

ROB
Acrid
06-06-07, 04:59 PM so he is essentially a high level demilich, hmmm could be fun

I think i am going to have some Uber vampires(vampire, master vampire, vampire lords) but not sure what character levels to give them

Some advanced death angels?(any ideas for advancement?)

Some huge mummys

advanced death giants

of course some liches, demi liches, and death knights

any other ideas?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Acrid 05-28-07, 12:10 AM	Well I have not posted here yet baout my current campaign but i fifgured it was time. Atm i am playing in an epoc level gestalt game. We have me a swordsgae/ruby knight vindicator, a solar with some warbalde levels, an enlightened fist/sorcerer/ a gold dragon, dragon ascendant, an arcane archer, and a warblade that does mainly whtie raven,a nd charging. The party is roughly lvl 24, with a few below, and a few above that. Each person is taking turns beign hte DM, and making new monsters. I was tryign to think of what to throw at them,a nd am drawing a blank. All books are available, and we do not use epic spellcasting, and i am lookign for roughly a cr27-28 encounter, or jsut ideas tha ti cna build off of. ANy ideas? Thanks in advance for any help
Acrid 05-29-07, 12:18 PM	No ideas at all guys?
rob_douglas 05-29-07, 06:11 PM	It's not that we don't have any ideas - we are rife with them, but your request is too open-ended. For me, I prefer to plan out a set of epic adventures culminating in a major battle. You come up with a theme. Fighting epic creatures should be more than just slugging it out. Part of the task is in finding out what they are, and where they come from, what they want, and what their weaknesses are. With an epic campaign, usually it is not so much the DM deciding what to throw at them, but them deciding which part of the multiverse to affect with their awesome might next, and the DM providing the challenges based on that. If you want some ideas from me, the first things I would need to know are: What do the PCs want? Is there an item, ability, or experience they want to have? Or even that just one of them wants to have that he can convince the others to come along? What are they willing to do to get it? I assume they are all good, so that is a help - you know that they won't likely steal and kill aimlessly. Is there some way though that you could set up a conflict in them where they have to give up something to get what they want - either something valuable, ro someone they care about.... Do they have any enemies on par with them? Is there someone who may or may not know them personally, but who could be directing forces against the party? The party could be going after the bad guy, defending themselves from him and his minions, or working toward the same goal in indirect opposition to this enemy. What are the/some great mysteries of your world. I think that is enough to get us started, if you want to respond to that. You could also go through the 100 Epic Adventure Ideas table in the ELH, or checkout the Epic Seeds on the Greyhawk board listed in my signature. Or check out this great thread 1001 Epic Adventure Ideas (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=113432). ROB
Acrid 05-29-07, 07:13 PM	Wellt he general idea is this. We started the campaign with lvl 31 evil gestalts. ANd that got tiring real quick. SO we decided to mae lower level good versions of ourselves, that would at some point go against the evil versions. That is our main goal. For now we are working for the church and three fo us are saints for said church, and we are goign around and destorying evil through out the land. Our last battle got us our first few artifacts plus a few epic items. SO we are just startign to power up some. SO in essence their main goal is to become powerful enough to destroy the evil uses. SO encounters that we make are designed to help us gian levels, test our abilities, gain items(nothign particular), and have fun with our overpowered characters. I am nto sure if thats exactly what you wer elookign for, aand i cna elaborate more if needed. Thanks for the Reply Acrid
rob_douglas 05-30-07, 03:25 PM	Well, in that case, it looks like you want to just fight some evil beasties. Then I do suggest looking at the link I gave above, or this one: 25 Epic Greyhawk Adventure Ideas (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1090) One that comes to mind as being appropriate quickly is this from the 1001 Epic Adventures: 2. An advanced solar has succumbed to temptation and joined forces with the lords of the Nine Hells. The players are approached by divine agents who beg their help to convince their fallen friend to return to the light, or put him down if they have no other choice. There is a great fallen solar available from Gren Ronin in Legions of Hell, and updated in Book of Fiends and the Epic Bestiary. He is a 50-HD advanced Solar with a Fallen Celestial template, and an artifact sword. If you can't find those references, the template basically changes all good abilities to evil versions. He also gains a Fear aura. He resides on the first layer of Hell, so you can go there to get him. Maybe fight a few powerful dragons of Tiamat, maybe a consort or 2, have a run-in with Bel's lieutenant, and an army of advanced, classed devils en route. Here is another: 46) Two extraplanar gates have opened on a large island. One leads into the infinite Abyss, and one into the pit of Hell. The sudden onslaught of the Blood War onto the Prime Material Plane would be bad enough, but several prophecies surround this island, and none of them end pleasantly... or this: 132 No Godmother this time: The PCs find themselves on what is quite possibly a different world, as it has a new cast of epics and powerbrokers. Quite coincidentally, all hell is breaking lose in the wake of the heir to the throne of this land being locked in an epic version of Temporal Stasis. Can the PCs deal with the epic sorcerer/air elemental savant werewolf threatening to blow away the wealthiest merchants of the land, liberate the powerful artifacts they need from the Giant King's flying castle, convince a powerful and vain epic sorceress to let them use her divining magic mirror, and still rescue the princess from the clutches of the Hag Countess, exiled from Baator? Those were jus some quick ideas I saw that might be to your liking. You could also go with the idea of invading a Necropolis that is under the control of an Atropal. The party should be able to whisk through most of the lesser undead, which are there in legions, but as they get closer, they have to deal with Advanced Nightshades (with the ability to disarm and destroy magic weapons!), a death knight or skeletal warrior, lich or demilich, and finally to the Atropal. What resources do you have that you might plumb - such as published adventures, Dungeon magazine issues, or other d20 products? Many times you can take a high level idea, and bump it up to epic level. When do you need this ready by, and how long do you want it to take? ROB
Acrid 05-30-07, 03:48 PM	As for materials i have all Wotc books, We rarely use psionics, and liek i said we do not use epic spell casting. ANythign i do not have, i am sure i cna get my hands on somehow As for when i need it by, there is no deadline, for now we jsut do what encounter everyone has ready. AS for length, the problem we are realising, is that msot thigns we can kill in one or two rounds. SO lookign for soemthign that can survive, the first onslaught. Thanks for the ideas so far rob, i am definitly gonns look into some of those. AS far as the evil solar, you siad it has 50 HD, do you have any idea of what its CR is? ANd where can i find Atropal?
rob_douglas 05-30-07, 05:20 PM	Atropal is in the ELH or the SRD, under Abominations. The 50-HD Solar was originally listed as CR 24, but that was a mistake, and it is really CR 35. You should increase SR by the same +14 that you increase the SR, and probably increase the caster level of its spells as well. You could use a smaller one - maybe 36HD (CR 28). As for surviving, the things that you are fighting need to take some advantages. Like knowing you are coming - they could have high spot/listen and minions on the ethereal to warn you - plus access to anticipate teleport spells so they can even delay the party's arrival. Minions are a good way to extend the life of a major enemy as well - because they can block some of the attacks. Also consider making them highly mobile - Quicken Spell-like ability (Greater Teleport) is very worthwhile, as is a dragon mount. There is a section in the ELH on page 109 that you should definitely read - on designing intelligent adversaries. As a matter of fact, please read chapter 3 entirely, it is only 20 pages and will help a WHOLE lot. If you pick something you want to go with, I would be happy to keep helping as time allows. If you can get ahold of any Dungeon magazines, start looking through them for the "Map of Mystery" and see if you can find one that you could use as a home base for your creation. Good luck, and let us know what you need next. If anyone else has any ideas - please join in. ROB
Acrid 05-30-07, 05:42 PM	Thanks rob you have been a huge help. I am goign to go through all of those nad see what i like, though the city of undead, with an atropal at the top seems awesome. WHile we ar eont he topic my character is as follows Human Saint Swordsage 20/Barbarian 3//Paladin of freedom 5/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 4/RKV 9/Battle Dancer 1 Basically i do 1 of 2 things. 1. Use shadow hand maneuvers, and stone dragon maneuvers to ability drain them, and do a lot of damage(i have an artificat spear that is sizing, and hte first attack amd eiwht it every round is a touch attack.) 2. Or i size it down to small, pull out my woundign dagger, and nova with time stands still, raging mongoose, and RKV to keep gettign new swift actions and maneuvers, getting a ton fo attacks. SOrcerer 4 is for wraith strike when i nova. My question is this, the 3 bar barian levels, and 1 battle dancer were jsut kidn fo thrown on, not sure what else to do. ANy ideas ont hat as well? Will start working ont he monsters tonight. Thanks again
bluemage55 05-30-07, 06:54 PM	Your build has no epic bonus feats, which is a major red flag. Many of the abilities that you get for dipping are not as good as epic feats that you can get instead.
Acrid 05-30-07, 08:12 PM	any suggestions to change it bluemage?
Rikandur_Azebol 05-31-07, 12:03 AM	Use Wish to swap barbarian and battle-dancer back to swordsage. It will grant You epic bonus feats. :)
Acrid 05-31-07, 12:19 AM	Are there epic rules for ToB anywhere?
Acrid 05-31-07, 01:20 AM	19) A king in a far away land, a 30th level Paladin, suddenly finds he has an amount of power over the dead, as if he were an equally powerful Necromancer. Hordes of potent undead such as liches and demi-liches begin to flock to him, unaffected by turning and intent on converting his kingdom into something more appropriate for their unwilling "new god." I liek this one, as an atropal might be to much for the party i think.. But one of the evil versions of us is a Necromancer, so do not want to make it to close. ANy ideas for minions?
bluemage55 05-31-07, 03:09 AM	I have a question about your build. You suggest that you can get a ton of attacks by expending swift actions using RPK. However, that doesn't address the problem that will arise because you can only use those maneuvers once before you have to spend a full round recovering one.
Acrid 05-31-07, 09:11 AM	RKV lets you burn a turning attempt as a free action to get anotehr swift action, You can then burn a turning attempt as a swift action to get a maneuver back, i usually get raging mongoose, then get another sift action by burnign another turning attempt, and raging mongoose again. raging mongoose lets me get 2 more attacks with each weapon, i use two weapons so four attacks. rinse wash and repeat
bluemage55 05-31-07, 09:22 AM	And how are you allowed to expend a swift action to get a maneuver back? There's the Sudden Recovery feat, but that's only usable once per day.
Acrid 05-31-07, 11:04 AM	its an ability of RKV At 2nd level you get the ability to expend a turn or rebue undead attempt as a swift action to get back an expended maneuver
bluemage55 05-31-07, 12:19 PM	I see. In that case, I would suggest the following build: Cleric 3/Swordsage 7/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 As you gain epic levels, put them into RBV to simultaneously improve your initiator level and caster level, and to pick up bonus feats. The epic progression of RKV should probably grant a bonus feat every four levels after 20th.
Acrid 05-31-07, 06:52 PM	well that would lose me BAB liek crazy, and i have swordsage 20 on the other side so how does htat work at all?
Acrid 06-05-07, 12:03 AM	bump
bluemage55 06-05-07, 02:52 AM	well that would lose me BAB liek crazy, and i have swordsage 20 on the other side so how does htat work at all? What are you talking about? The build I posted has a BAB of +19 pre-epic!
Acrid 06-05-07, 11:29 AM	neither swordage or cleric are ful BAB progression, so how is that possible?
bluemage55 06-05-07, 04:20 PM	neither swordage or cleric are ful BAB progression, so how is that possible? For some reason I thought swordsage was full BAB. In that case your pre-epic BAB is still +16, which means you're only down 4 total.
Acrid 06-05-07, 05:04 PM	and meas i onyl get 3 attacks with each hand when i kidn fo require 4 attacks
rob_douglas 06-05-07, 05:27 PM	If your pre-epic BAB is +16, you get 4 iterative attacks. With Perfect 2/multi-weapon fighting, that is 4 per hand. ROB
Acrid 06-05-07, 05:57 PM	rob, thanka gain for the help did you see the encounter i decided on? and if so do you have any ideas for me?
rob_douglas 06-05-07, 10:51 PM	Yeah I did - very interesting. That one has intrigued me - though I thought you still weren't sure because of the necromantic angles. But if you go with the Paladin king becoming the object of evil worship, it gets interesting. OK, he should be an old king, well past his prime and in the twilight of his years. If you use Greyhawk, Belvor IV would work for him. If not, the following should help: Belvor is the last of his line. His son Thrommel was due to marry the daughter of the neighboring patriarchy, but he was kidnapped and went missing. Eventually it was discovered (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) that Thrommel had been turned into a vampire and had to be destroyed. This is the seed that allows the evil in the adventure seed you quoted to enter. Belvor at first wants control over his own life and virility, as he hopes to sire a new heir. When that proves not to work, as he continues to age, something enters him and merges with his soul - I still think an Atropal - or a direct servant of Nerull, as the party won't get to it for quite a while. But anyway, this merger is subtle at first. A few undead begin to appear, then more powerful ones. Eventually Orcus becomes aware of what is going on, and wants to harness the power. So he or an avatar of him might make an appearance at some point, depending on the stats you might use. But before he does, there is another interested party. The demi-lich Acererak had tried to merge with all undead everywhere once, and his consciousness still floats free, so he too will come to learn of this unexplained control over undead, only to find himself put under its influence. Acererak invented the Winterwights, but he must have known about the Shadow of the Voids and Shapes of Fire too, so he pulls them in. So you start with a few random reanimations, then include more undead, a few Nightwalkers. Perhaps some undead giants in the form of Hulking Corpses. None of this is a serious threat to the party, but it is to the villages in the way, and they need to stop multiple outbreaks. The undead all seem to be headed to the capitol, where thousands upon thousands are gathering. The King is lost in contemplation, trying to call his dead son back to him, which is why the undead are all drawn to him. Death Knights, and Liches perhaps have come to pay him homage and try to "help" and they try to keep the PCs away from the king. If the party can get to him, and use Diplomacy or force to stop his prayers, they can put off the danger. Acererak will unleash the Winterwights, and eventually the Atropal might come out, or Orcus's avatar, or Nerull's. ROB
Acrid 06-06-07, 06:22 AM	tanks rob,, that is awesome is acerak jsut somethign you made up, or an actuall guy? and if so where can i find him And should i make the king straight paladin, or add other stuff?
bluemage55 06-06-07, 07:02 AM	Acererak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acererak)
rob_douglas 06-06-07, 02:52 PM	Well done Blue - I keep forgetting how much classic stuff is in Wikipedia. ROB
Acrid 06-06-07, 04:59 PM	so he is essentially a high level demilich, hmmm could be fun I think i am going to have some Uber vampires(vampire, master vampire, vampire lords) but not sure what character levels to give them Some advanced death angels?(any ideas for advancement?) Some huge mummys advanced death giants of course some liches, demi liches, and death knights any other ideas?