Lots and Lots [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lots and Lots [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NinjaPenguin
07-23-07, 01:14 PM It is a well known fact that rabbits can't count above four. Anything beyond that is simply 'lots'. In fact, if its an order of magnitude beyond that, its simply 'lots and lots' and can essentially be considered infinite.

So, in that vein, would it be unreasonable to take an ability that you have something like 5 to 10 uses of per day and apply something like this?

New Feat: Lots and Lots [Epic]
You can use your special ability lots and lots of times.
Prerequisites: Any special ability usable 8(?) or more times per day.
Benefit: Chose an ability you can use eight(?) or more times per day. You can now use that ability at will. The action required to use that ability does not change and if you could not otherwise use that ability more than once a round, you still can't. If there is a time delay between uses of this ability, you must still respect that time delay.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to a different ability that qualifies.

Essentially the question becomes: How many times per day is enough to just call it 'Lots and Lots'?

*Please excuse my silliness. Its rather early in the morning for me.
archerpwr
07-23-07, 01:29 PM It is a well known fact that rabbits can't count above four. Anything beyond that is simply 'lots'. In fact, if its an order of magnitude beyond that, its simply 'lots and lots' and can essentially be considered infinite.

So, in that vein, would it be unreasonable to take an ability that you have something like 5 to 10 uses of per day and apply something like this?

New Feat: Lots and Lots [Epic]
You can use your special ability lots and lots of times.
Prerequisites: Any special ability usable 8(?) or more times per day.
Benefit: Chose an ability you can use eight(?) or more times per day. You can now use that ability at will. The action required to use that ability does not change and if you could not otherwise use that ability more than once a round, you still can't. If there is a time delay between uses of this ability, you must still respect that time delay.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to a different ability that qualifies.

Essentially the question becomes: How many times per day is enough to just call it 'Lots and Lots'?

*Please excuse my silliness. Its rather early in the morning for me.

Cast spells, I choose you!
rob_douglas
07-23-07, 01:30 PM I often thought of a feat to allow you to improve spell-like abilities:

If you could use something 1/day, this made it 3/day. If 3/day, make it at will. I haven't decided on whether or not there should be a 6/day in between, but it seems like most abilities are 1/day, 3/day, and at will. There would definitely be some danger of that being overpowered.

I thought it would be nice to combine with Quicken SLA - that gives you 3/day, then take another feat to make it at will Quickened for one SLA. I also thought there should be some related level requirements as well.

In other words, I think it is a good generic idea, but haven't worked out how many. Smiting could be pretty nasty at will, especially since it seems from the latest Dragon magazine that it is not a 1/round ability (they describe Smite Evil in a paladin article as something you could do again in the round as part of a cleave!).

ROB
NinjaPenguin
07-23-07, 01:40 PM Actually, I think the Smite/Cleave thing is normal. You get all the same modifiers to the attack on the cleave. But irregardless. I think 3 is a bit too few to make the jump to 'Lots and Lots'. 6 might be acceptable. Wild shape, for example, hits 6 as a Druid. I was thinking 8 or so, since then you'd have to take most progressions into epic in order to be able to use it, not simply be able to cut it off and then run with it.

Smite abuse? Paladin 21 (not really a great build, but hey), has smite 5/day. Add in Extra Smiting pre-epic and then take 'Lots and Lots of Smiting' and Great Smiting and you're well on your way! You can't actually -use- the Smite ability more than once per round, so there's no 'nova' capacity, at least, but now you can really lay the smack-down on those evildoers!

Hmm... yes, we have to make sure 'cast spells' isn't on the list of things you can do this with. That just seems a wee bit much. :P
BillTheManiac
07-23-07, 02:57 PM Not Turn Undead. There are too many abilities for that. Divine Metamagic + Lots and Lots is eating my brains out.

Smite
Rage
Bardic Music
...?
Starmage21
07-23-07, 04:02 PM I often thought of a feat to allow you to improve spell-like abilities:

If you could use something 1/day, this made it 3/day. If 3/day, make it at will. I haven't decided on whether or not there should be a 6/day in between, but it seems like most abilities are 1/day, 3/day, and at will. There would definitely be some danger of that being overpowered.

I thought it would be nice to combine with Quicken SLA - that gives you 3/day, then take another feat to make it at will Quickened for one SLA. I also thought there should be some related level requirements as well.

In other words, I think it is a good generic idea, but haven't worked out how many. Smiting could be pretty nasty at will, especially since it seems from the latest Dragon magazine that it is not a 1/round ability (they describe Smite Evil in a paladin article as something you could do again in the round as part of a cleave!).

ROB

I forget where I seen it, but im fairly certain that once you get 5/day or more, its effectively at-will.
NinjaPenguin
07-23-07, 04:24 PM Hmm... it may seem a bit clunky, but how about a clause that says if any ability would require you to spend uses of that ability, your effective uses per day left to spend is your -actual- number per day, less how many you've already used? For example, I have 13 turn attempts per day when I take 'Lots and Lots of Turn Undead'. If I use 3 turn attempts for anything, I have 10 left to power turn-using abilities, but I can still use the actual Turn Undead ability at will regardless?
fnord
07-23-07, 05:54 PM So, in that vein, would it be unreasonable to take an ability that you have something like 5 to 10 uses of per day and apply something like this?

Yes. Yes it is. It might be work for some specific abilities, particularly ones with durations (bardic music, barbarian rage), but not in general.

You can't actually -use- the Smite ability more than once per round,
Yes, you can, unless I'm missing something. You can use it on any attack, even an AoO, as far as I can see.

If you really wanted to do something like this, I would use a chain:
1) Can us the ability without expending a daily use per encounter, or once per minute outside of combat.
2) Once free per minute.
3) Once free per 2 rounds.
4) Once free per round.
5) At will.
NinjaPenguin
07-23-07, 07:33 PM That would be a good language to use. 'You may use the ability without expending one of your uses of the ability.' That way you still have your normal limit of uses to power other things. That scaling thing might work well, actually. investing 5 feats to be able to use an ability at will seems like a hefty investment, but it IS a big deal...
rob_douglas
07-23-07, 10:22 PM Actually, I think the Smite/Cleave thing is normal. You get all the same modifiers to the attack on the cleave.
No, that was the point made in the writeup in Dragon 358 - if you kill someone with your Smite you do NOT get the smite bonuses on the Cleave unless you use another Smite for that.

You can't actually -use- the Smite ability more than once per round
Except Dragon 358 contradicts that and says you can use smite on each attack, even 5 in a round if you wanted, plus cleaves, until you run out.

ROB
NinjaPenguin
07-24-07, 07:29 AM Hmm... Well, guess my group was playing by a house-rule and didn't know it, then. That's good to know. Thanks. :)

In that case, I'm very use that the tiered feats would be better. 1/minute, 1/2 rounds, 1/round, @will. The 1/encounter seems to overlap too much with the 1/minute, since most encounters rarely last more than 10 rounds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NinjaPenguin 07-23-07, 01:14 PM	It is a well known fact that rabbits can't count above four. Anything beyond that is simply 'lots'. In fact, if its an order of magnitude beyond that, its simply 'lots and lots' and can essentially be considered infinite. So, in that vein, would it be unreasonable to take an ability that you have something like 5 to 10 uses of per day and apply something like this? New Feat: Lots and Lots [Epic] You can use your special ability lots and lots of times. Prerequisites: Any special ability usable 8(?) or more times per day. Benefit: Chose an ability you can use eight(?) or more times per day. You can now use that ability at will. The action required to use that ability does not change and if you could not otherwise use that ability more than once a round, you still can't. If there is a time delay between uses of this ability, you must still respect that time delay. Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to a different ability that qualifies. Essentially the question becomes: How many times per day is enough to just call it 'Lots and Lots'? *Please excuse my silliness. Its rather early in the morning for me.
archerpwr 07-23-07, 01:29 PM	It is a well known fact that rabbits can't count above four. Anything beyond that is simply 'lots'. In fact, if its an order of magnitude beyond that, its simply 'lots and lots' and can essentially be considered infinite. So, in that vein, would it be unreasonable to take an ability that you have something like 5 to 10 uses of per day and apply something like this? New Feat: Lots and Lots [Epic] You can use your special ability lots and lots of times. Prerequisites: Any special ability usable 8(?) or more times per day. Benefit: Chose an ability you can use eight(?) or more times per day. You can now use that ability at will. The action required to use that ability does not change and if you could not otherwise use that ability more than once a round, you still can't. If there is a time delay between uses of this ability, you must still respect that time delay. Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to a different ability that qualifies. Essentially the question becomes: How many times per day is enough to just call it 'Lots and Lots'? *Please excuse my silliness. Its rather early in the morning for me. Cast spells, I choose you!
rob_douglas 07-23-07, 01:30 PM	I often thought of a feat to allow you to improve spell-like abilities: If you could use something 1/day, this made it 3/day. If 3/day, make it at will. I haven't decided on whether or not there should be a 6/day in between, but it seems like most abilities are 1/day, 3/day, and at will. There would definitely be some danger of that being overpowered. I thought it would be nice to combine with Quicken SLA - that gives you 3/day, then take another feat to make it at will Quickened for one SLA. I also thought there should be some related level requirements as well. In other words, I think it is a good generic idea, but haven't worked out how many. Smiting could be pretty nasty at will, especially since it seems from the latest Dragon magazine that it is not a 1/round ability (they describe Smite Evil in a paladin article as something you could do again in the round as part of a cleave!). ROB
NinjaPenguin 07-23-07, 01:40 PM	Actually, I think the Smite/Cleave thing is normal. You get all the same modifiers to the attack on the cleave. But irregardless. I think 3 is a bit too few to make the jump to 'Lots and Lots'. 6 might be acceptable. Wild shape, for example, hits 6 as a Druid. I was thinking 8 or so, since then you'd have to take most progressions into epic in order to be able to use it, not simply be able to cut it off and then run with it. Smite abuse? Paladin 21 (not really a great build, but hey), has smite 5/day. Add in Extra Smiting pre-epic and then take 'Lots and Lots of Smiting' and Great Smiting and you're well on your way! You can't actually -use- the Smite ability more than once per round, so there's no 'nova' capacity, at least, but now you can really lay the smack-down on those evildoers! Hmm... yes, we have to make sure 'cast spells' isn't on the list of things you can do this with. That just seems a wee bit much. :P
BillTheManiac 07-23-07, 02:57 PM	Not Turn Undead. There are too many abilities for that. Divine Metamagic + Lots and Lots is eating my brains out. Smite Rage Bardic Music ...?
Starmage21 07-23-07, 04:02 PM	I often thought of a feat to allow you to improve spell-like abilities: If you could use something 1/day, this made it 3/day. If 3/day, make it at will. I haven't decided on whether or not there should be a 6/day in between, but it seems like most abilities are 1/day, 3/day, and at will. There would definitely be some danger of that being overpowered. I thought it would be nice to combine with Quicken SLA - that gives you 3/day, then take another feat to make it at will Quickened for one SLA. I also thought there should be some related level requirements as well. In other words, I think it is a good generic idea, but haven't worked out how many. Smiting could be pretty nasty at will, especially since it seems from the latest Dragon magazine that it is not a 1/round ability (they describe Smite Evil in a paladin article as something you could do again in the round as part of a cleave!). ROB I forget where I seen it, but im fairly certain that once you get 5/day or more, its effectively at-will.
NinjaPenguin 07-23-07, 04:24 PM	Hmm... it may seem a bit clunky, but how about a clause that says if any ability would require you to spend uses of that ability, your effective uses per day left to spend is your -actual- number per day, less how many you've already used? For example, I have 13 turn attempts per day when I take 'Lots and Lots of Turn Undead'. If I use 3 turn attempts for anything, I have 10 left to power turn-using abilities, but I can still use the actual Turn Undead ability at will regardless?
fnord 07-23-07, 05:54 PM	So, in that vein, would it be unreasonable to take an ability that you have something like 5 to 10 uses of per day and apply something like this? Yes. Yes it is. It might be work for some specific abilities, particularly ones with durations (bardic music, barbarian rage), but not in general. You can't actually -use- the Smite ability more than once per round, Yes, you can, unless I'm missing something. You can use it on any attack, even an AoO, as far as I can see. If you really wanted to do something like this, I would use a chain: 1) Can us the ability without expending a daily use per encounter, or once per minute outside of combat. 2) Once free per minute. 3) Once free per 2 rounds. 4) Once free per round. 5) At will.
NinjaPenguin 07-23-07, 07:33 PM	That would be a good language to use. 'You may use the ability without expending one of your uses of the ability.' That way you still have your normal limit of uses to power other things. That scaling thing might work well, actually. investing 5 feats to be able to use an ability at will seems like a hefty investment, but it IS a big deal...
rob_douglas 07-23-07, 10:22 PM	Actually, I think the Smite/Cleave thing is normal. You get all the same modifiers to the attack on the cleave. No, that was the point made in the writeup in Dragon 358 - if you kill someone with your Smite you do NOT get the smite bonuses on the Cleave unless you use another Smite for that. You can't actually -use- the Smite ability more than once per round Except Dragon 358 contradicts that and says you can use smite on each attack, even 5 in a round if you wanted, plus cleaves, until you run out. ROB
NinjaPenguin 07-24-07, 07:29 AM	Hmm... Well, guess my group was playing by a house-rule and didn't know it, then. That's good to know. Thanks. :) In that case, I'm very use that the tiered feats would be better. 1/minute, 1/2 rounds, 1/round, @will. The 1/encounter seems to overlap too much with the 1/minute, since most encounters rarely last more than 10 rounds.