Lower Level Mooks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lower Level Mooks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DoveArrow
03-06-08, 11:19 AM I don't know about anyone else, but I find that the most interesting, and challenging encounters are the ones where the players encounter multiple, lower level mooks, with a leader whose CR is about one or two levels higher than them. The question I have is does this still work for epic level games? For example, are four CR 16 creatures, led by a CR 18 creature an appropriate encounter for PCs that are 21st level, or will the PCs just mow through them? What about six CR 16 creatures and a CR 18 creature against PCs that are 22nd level? Normally, I would think so, and the encounter calculator I have seems to agree, but I would like to know what other people have experienced when running epic level games. Do you think these are appropriate encounters, or do you think I need to kick it up a notch by making my NPCs a little more challenging?

On that note, the ELH says something about the CR of epic level NPCs being equal to their level minus one. Is this true even at 21st or 22nd level? Should I make my 16th level NPC barbarian 17th level to make him a CR 16, or do you think he's good as he is? Let me know. Thanks.
PrinceOfTheVoid
03-06-08, 12:15 PM A good rule that appeared over at Dicefreaks for NPC CR, I believe, is -1 CR per 5 Class Levels and Epic CLass Levels only add 1/2 CR. That might generally be geared toward 1 NPC vs. the Party though
DoveArrow
03-06-08, 12:25 PM A good rule that appeared over at Dicefreaks for NPC CR, I believe, is -1 CR per 5 Class Levels and Epic CLass Levels only add 1/2 CR. That might generally be geared toward 1 NPC vs. the Party though

I'm not sure I understand how the calculations you've given me work. Can you give me an example?
PrinceOfTheVoid
03-06-08, 12:47 PM 25 Class Levels= CR 17(16.5 rounded up) (25/5= 5) (25-20=5/2=2.5)

I didn;t come up with those rules, so I might have it wrong. I think Kain Darkwind originally made them, if you know who that is, ask him.
BillTheManiac
03-06-08, 04:26 PM he's on these boards, under the name... Kain Darkwind. So typing that in a PM box should work.
rob_douglas
03-06-08, 08:36 PM The groups you have there are nominally supposed to be a challenge for a party of 4, but it is also true you need to use a little art at epic level. You need to determine if your party is ahead or behind the power curve - do they min/max well. If you have found the many mooks strategy to work in the past, it will probably continue to do so. However, the PCs will get more epic feats which will give them abilities far beyond the mooks. So soon you may find they are not a real threat.

As for NPCs, I agree they are definitely not up to Cr at epic levels. I am using -1 per 10 levels now, but even that seems too easy. You have to make sure they have help. A 26th level NPC against a party of 5 22nd level PCs in my game only held up because he had some cheat abilities and an artifact that was intelligent and could do some actions of its own. Otherwise, he wouldn't have lasted a round. 4 22nd level NPCs would probably make a good encounter. My group took on 3 21st level NPCs when they were 21st level and that was a seriously tough encounter that they had to retreat from - but they were able to restore resources and come back faster than the bad guys could prepare again.

Good luck.
ROB
DoveArrow
03-07-08, 09:51 AM A 26th level NPC against a party of 5 22nd level PCs in my game only held up because he had some cheat abilities and an artifact that was intelligent and could do some actions of its own. Otherwise, he wouldn't have lasted a round.

Yeah the experience that you describe is exactly what I've experienced whenever I pit the PCs against a single monster of the appropriate CR. Basically, what happens is the whole party gangs up on the one creature, and they take it down before it ever gets a chance to do anything. Having had this happen several times, I decided having lots of lower level mooks running around was the better way to go, because it gives the PCs more targets to deal with, so even if they all gang up on one creature, there are still four or five monsters standing around, waiting to deal damage.

The only time I pit the PCs against one creature is if it's CR is two or three higher than the party's level. Unless of course it's the BBEG. Then I add some lower level mooks to soak up damage so that the main villain has an opportunity to show off just what makes him the BBEG.
rob_douglas
03-07-08, 11:41 AM That sounds like the right plan. Epic level parties should be able to handle it. They can control the battlefield to limit the number of mooks as well, if it is a problem for them.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but this is the Encounter design strategy they are pushing in 4E. The idea is to have 1 level equivalent enemy per PC - no more CR, but creature level is about the same thing. I guess I didn't realize they pushed 1 CR = Level creature so much in 3E because I never really had many encounters like that. The few I did didn't go well for the baddies, so I stopped.

ROB
DoveArrow
03-10-08, 12:10 PM I was actually aware of it and I think it's a good decision. I'm also hoping that they make epic level stat blocks easier to put together, because frankly, that's been the most trying part about trying to put together my very first epic campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DoveArrow 03-06-08, 11:19 AM	I don't know about anyone else, but I find that the most interesting, and challenging encounters are the ones where the players encounter multiple, lower level mooks, with a leader whose CR is about one or two levels higher than them. The question I have is does this still work for epic level games? For example, are four CR 16 creatures, led by a CR 18 creature an appropriate encounter for PCs that are 21st level, or will the PCs just mow through them? What about six CR 16 creatures and a CR 18 creature against PCs that are 22nd level? Normally, I would think so, and the encounter calculator I have seems to agree, but I would like to know what other people have experienced when running epic level games. Do you think these are appropriate encounters, or do you think I need to kick it up a notch by making my NPCs a little more challenging? On that note, the ELH says something about the CR of epic level NPCs being equal to their level minus one. Is this true even at 21st or 22nd level? Should I make my 16th level NPC barbarian 17th level to make him a CR 16, or do you think he's good as he is? Let me know. Thanks.
PrinceOfTheVoid 03-06-08, 12:15 PM	A good rule that appeared over at Dicefreaks for NPC CR, I believe, is -1 CR per 5 Class Levels and Epic CLass Levels only add 1/2 CR. That might generally be geared toward 1 NPC vs. the Party though
DoveArrow 03-06-08, 12:25 PM	A good rule that appeared over at Dicefreaks for NPC CR, I believe, is -1 CR per 5 Class Levels and Epic CLass Levels only add 1/2 CR. That might generally be geared toward 1 NPC vs. the Party though I'm not sure I understand how the calculations you've given me work. Can you give me an example?
PrinceOfTheVoid 03-06-08, 12:47 PM	25 Class Levels= CR 17(16.5 rounded up) (25/5= 5) (25-20=5/2=2.5) I didn;t come up with those rules, so I might have it wrong. I think Kain Darkwind originally made them, if you know who that is, ask him.
BillTheManiac 03-06-08, 04:26 PM	he's on these boards, under the name... Kain Darkwind. So typing that in a PM box should work.
rob_douglas 03-06-08, 08:36 PM	The groups you have there are nominally supposed to be a challenge for a party of 4, but it is also true you need to use a little art at epic level. You need to determine if your party is ahead or behind the power curve - do they min/max well. If you have found the many mooks strategy to work in the past, it will probably continue to do so. However, the PCs will get more epic feats which will give them abilities far beyond the mooks. So soon you may find they are not a real threat. As for NPCs, I agree they are definitely not up to Cr at epic levels. I am using -1 per 10 levels now, but even that seems too easy. You have to make sure they have help. A 26th level NPC against a party of 5 22nd level PCs in my game only held up because he had some cheat abilities and an artifact that was intelligent and could do some actions of its own. Otherwise, he wouldn't have lasted a round. 4 22nd level NPCs would probably make a good encounter. My group took on 3 21st level NPCs when they were 21st level and that was a seriously tough encounter that they had to retreat from - but they were able to restore resources and come back faster than the bad guys could prepare again. Good luck. ROB
DoveArrow 03-07-08, 09:51 AM	A 26th level NPC against a party of 5 22nd level PCs in my game only held up because he had some cheat abilities and an artifact that was intelligent and could do some actions of its own. Otherwise, he wouldn't have lasted a round. Yeah the experience that you describe is exactly what I've experienced whenever I pit the PCs against a single monster of the appropriate CR. Basically, what happens is the whole party gangs up on the one creature, and they take it down before it ever gets a chance to do anything. Having had this happen several times, I decided having lots of lower level mooks running around was the better way to go, because it gives the PCs more targets to deal with, so even if they all gang up on one creature, there are still four or five monsters standing around, waiting to deal damage. The only time I pit the PCs against one creature is if it's CR is two or three higher than the party's level. Unless of course it's the BBEG. Then I add some lower level mooks to soak up damage so that the main villain has an opportunity to show off just what makes him the BBEG.
rob_douglas 03-07-08, 11:41 AM	That sounds like the right plan. Epic level parties should be able to handle it. They can control the battlefield to limit the number of mooks as well, if it is a problem for them. I don't know if you are aware of this, but this is the Encounter design strategy they are pushing in 4E. The idea is to have 1 level equivalent enemy per PC - no more CR, but creature level is about the same thing. I guess I didn't realize they pushed 1 CR = Level creature so much in 3E because I never really had many encounters like that. The few I did didn't go well for the baddies, so I stopped. ROB
DoveArrow 03-10-08, 12:10 PM	I was actually aware of it and I think it's a good decision. I'm also hoping that they make epic level stat blocks easier to put together, because frankly, that's been the most trying part about trying to put together my very first epic campaign.