Mass Lantern Archons. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mass Lantern Archons. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Allthegoodnamesweretaken
08-23-07, 10:01 PM They're the lowest rank of Archon and generally not thought of as much of a threat. However, their main attack is a light ray which only requires a ranged touch attack and cannot be resisted (as far as I'm aware).

Imagine, for a moment, the imagery of 100 or even 1000 Lantern Archons (preferably buffed with some stuff to boost their attack roll) all firing a volley of light rays at something.

I think having a massive Lantern Archon light ray barrage would make for an incredible epic spell but sadly the current epic spell creation rules get pretty ridiculous when it comes to summoning multiple creatures, even of low CR.

Anyone have any ideas on how to make it work?
Starmage21
08-24-07, 01:39 AM They're the lowest rank of Archon and generally not thought of as much of a threat. However, their main attack is a light ray which only requires a ranged touch attack and cannot be resisted (as far as I'm aware).

Imagine, for a moment, the imagery of 100 or even 1000 Lantern Archons (preferably buffed with some stuff to boost their attack roll) all firing a volley of light rays at something.

I think having a massive Lantern Archon light ray barrage would make for an incredible epic spell but sadly the current epic spell creation rules get pretty ridiculous when it comes to summoning multiple creatures, even of low CR.

Anyone have any ideas on how to make it work?

Calculate the CR of the Lantern Archon "swarm" based on the number of them. 1 Lantern Archon = CR 1, 2 archons CR 3, 4 archons CR 5, 8 archons CR 7, 16 archons CR 9, 32 archons CR 11, 64 archons CR 13, 128 archons CR 13, etc etc.

You might be able to get by with adding the swarm template.
stunspore
08-24-07, 05:46 PM Nice idea. Quite a lot of anime have lots of effects where light rays are shooting at the enemy in all directions. Or all the lightrays converging into a single beam.
BillTheManiac
08-24-07, 07:24 PM What you need is modified lantern archons with Swarmfighting so they can all bunch together.
Lyinginbedmon
08-25-07, 04:42 AM This reminds me of something to do with Archimonde...
WombleHunter
08-25-07, 08:42 AM Calculate the CR of the Lantern Archon "swarm" based on the number of them. 1 Lantern Archon = CR 1, 2 archons CR 3, 4 archons CR 5, 8 archons CR 7, 16 archons CR 9, 32 archons CR 11, 64 archons CR 13, 128 archons CR 13, etc etc.

Isn't the progression such that the EL increases by 2 for each doubling of the number of creatures?

So, # of archons to EL would look like this:

# EL
1 2
2 4
4 6
8 8
16 10
32 12
64 14
128 16
256 18
512 20 So if you can use EL in place of CR for Epic Spell purposes, 512 Lantern Archons would count as a CR 20 monster.
BillTheManiac
08-25-07, 09:26 AM So that means 25-26 light rays hit, on average. Then the returns start getting insane. For +20 DC, we have 16,384 archons, or 819 rays. Should be enough.

Now how do we fit all those rays?
Starmage21
08-25-07, 03:44 PM So that means 25-26 light rays hit, on average. Then the returns start getting insane. For +20 DC, we have 16,384 archons, or 819 rays. Should be enough.

Now how do we fit all those rays?

I dont think within the range you can actually hit the target with that many rays of light. Each archon takes up 1 square, and I dont think there are that many squares available to attack a creature in the center if the swarm had completely surrounded the target.

You need a swarm template applied to lantern archons :D
BillTheManiac
08-25-07, 06:22 PM Wouldn't the swarmfighting feat work?
Starmage21
08-25-07, 07:21 PM Wouldn't the swarmfighting feat work?

What does that do?
BillTheManiac
08-25-07, 08:03 PM It's from CompWar. It lets multiple small-size characters fit in the same square. When I read it it seemed like it let an unlimited number, but that seems a little odd. I'm too lazy to check the book right now.
WombleHunter
08-26-07, 09:07 AM Well, the ray has a range of 30'. By my working, (and I approximated a cube of 60' [12 squares] a side) you could fit over 800 archons around a single target.

EDIT: My working is probably wrong, and probably inappropriate. But it is illustrative.
Khadmus
08-26-07, 09:28 AM A party of 20th-level characters facing a lantern archon swarm sounds intruiging.
BillTheManiac
08-26-07, 09:48 AM Lantern archons die to area of effect spells, though. In fact you are allowed to subtract 1 from the EL once you hit 4 lantern archons.
runestar
08-26-07, 10:01 AM Isn't there some sort of mob template as well? Can it apply to lantern archons?
BillTheManiac
08-26-07, 10:18 AM The energy rays wouldn't apply, the damage becomes 5d6. The CR would be 10. Won't help.
Lyinginbedmon
08-26-07, 11:25 AM Yeah, the feat mentions no limit or specific number of people that can share the same space. Therefore, you could indeed have any number of Lantern Archons with Swarmfighting in the same 5 ft. space.

As for the numbers on Lantern Archons 30 ft. away from a given target, it works out that 109 Lantern Archons can fit into that 30 x 30 ft area, leaving one space for the target. That equals MAM 109/381.5/654 for damage.
Starmage21
08-26-07, 12:16 PM Yeah, the feat mentions no limit or specific number of people that can share the same space. Therefore, you could indeed have any number of Lantern Archons with Swarmfighting in the same 5 ft. space.

As for the numbers on Lantern Archons 30 ft. away from a given target, it works out that 109 Lantern Archons can fit into that 30 x 30 ft area, leaving one space for the target. That equals MAM 109/381.5/654 for damage.

and thats if they were able to surround a medium size target. Considering the XP and GP cost of even a low DC epic spell(unless you mitigate it to zero[1/2]), 654 damage is kind of PFFFT. You might be able to do more with regular spellcasting, and a single area spell would kill them all.
BillTheManiac
08-26-07, 03:43 PM Or you can backlash it down to 1 DC and research it-um-fast.

109 lantern archons<128 lantern archons=EL 15. That would be DC 40, right?. Backlash would be MAM 39/136.5/234, which is a lot less. And no gp and XP.

Doesn't even include mitigating factors for duration down to 1 round. How much would that be?
Lyinginbedmon
08-26-07, 06:57 PM My calculations were for the damage the Archons would do to the target, just to clarify.
bluemage55
08-31-07, 12:50 AM So if you can use EL in place of CR for Epic Spell purposes, 512 Lantern Archons would count as a CR 20 monster.

You can't.

Summoning multiple creatures requires that you multiply the DC, not merely increase it by 2 per doubling. For an example, see the dragon strike epic spell.
BillTheManiac
08-31-07, 06:58 AM You can't.

Summoning multiple creatures requires that you multiply the DC, not merely increase it by 2 per doubling. For an example, see the dragon strike epic spell.

Unfortunately, that means that any epic summoning spells that summon more then 1 creature will suck.
bluemage55
08-31-07, 04:34 PM Unfortunately, that means that any epic summoning spells that summon more then 1 creature will suck.

Yep. Not a problem, really.
BillTheManiac
08-31-07, 08:11 PM Yep. Not a problem, really.

Not as bad as river dragon sucks though! I laugh at the designers that thought up that spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Allthegoodnamesweretaken 08-23-07, 10:01 PM	They're the lowest rank of Archon and generally not thought of as much of a threat. However, their main attack is a light ray which only requires a ranged touch attack and cannot be resisted (as far as I'm aware). Imagine, for a moment, the imagery of 100 or even 1000 Lantern Archons (preferably buffed with some stuff to boost their attack roll) all firing a volley of light rays at something. I think having a massive Lantern Archon light ray barrage would make for an incredible epic spell but sadly the current epic spell creation rules get pretty ridiculous when it comes to summoning multiple creatures, even of low CR. Anyone have any ideas on how to make it work?
Starmage21 08-24-07, 01:39 AM	They're the lowest rank of Archon and generally not thought of as much of a threat. However, their main attack is a light ray which only requires a ranged touch attack and cannot be resisted (as far as I'm aware). Imagine, for a moment, the imagery of 100 or even 1000 Lantern Archons (preferably buffed with some stuff to boost their attack roll) all firing a volley of light rays at something. I think having a massive Lantern Archon light ray barrage would make for an incredible epic spell but sadly the current epic spell creation rules get pretty ridiculous when it comes to summoning multiple creatures, even of low CR. Anyone have any ideas on how to make it work? Calculate the CR of the Lantern Archon "swarm" based on the number of them. 1 Lantern Archon = CR 1, 2 archons CR 3, 4 archons CR 5, 8 archons CR 7, 16 archons CR 9, 32 archons CR 11, 64 archons CR 13, 128 archons CR 13, etc etc. You might be able to get by with adding the swarm template.
stunspore 08-24-07, 05:46 PM	Nice idea. Quite a lot of anime have lots of effects where light rays are shooting at the enemy in all directions. Or all the lightrays converging into a single beam.
BillTheManiac 08-24-07, 07:24 PM	What you need is modified lantern archons with Swarmfighting so they can all bunch together.
Lyinginbedmon 08-25-07, 04:42 AM	This reminds me of something to do with Archimonde...
WombleHunter 08-25-07, 08:42 AM	Calculate the CR of the Lantern Archon "swarm" based on the number of them. 1 Lantern Archon = CR 1, 2 archons CR 3, 4 archons CR 5, 8 archons CR 7, 16 archons CR 9, 32 archons CR 11, 64 archons CR 13, 128 archons CR 13, etc etc. Isn't the progression such that the EL increases by 2 for each doubling of the number of creatures? So, # of archons to EL would look like this: # EL 1 2 2 4 4 6 8 8 16 10 32 12 64 14 128 16 256 18 512 20 So if you can use EL in place of CR for Epic Spell purposes, 512 Lantern Archons would count as a CR 20 monster.
BillTheManiac 08-25-07, 09:26 AM	So that means 25-26 light rays hit, on average. Then the returns start getting insane. For +20 DC, we have 16,384 archons, or 819 rays. Should be enough. Now how do we fit all those rays?
Starmage21 08-25-07, 03:44 PM	So that means 25-26 light rays hit, on average. Then the returns start getting insane. For +20 DC, we have 16,384 archons, or 819 rays. Should be enough. Now how do we fit all those rays? I dont think within the range you can actually hit the target with that many rays of light. Each archon takes up 1 square, and I dont think there are that many squares available to attack a creature in the center if the swarm had completely surrounded the target. You need a swarm template applied to lantern archons :D
BillTheManiac 08-25-07, 06:22 PM	Wouldn't the swarmfighting feat work?
Starmage21 08-25-07, 07:21 PM	Wouldn't the swarmfighting feat work? What does that do?
BillTheManiac 08-25-07, 08:03 PM	It's from CompWar. It lets multiple small-size characters fit in the same square. When I read it it seemed like it let an unlimited number, but that seems a little odd. I'm too lazy to check the book right now.
WombleHunter 08-26-07, 09:07 AM	Well, the ray has a range of 30'. By my working, (and I approximated a cube of 60' [12 squares] a side) you could fit over 800 archons around a single target. EDIT: My working is probably wrong, and probably inappropriate. But it is illustrative.
Khadmus 08-26-07, 09:28 AM	A party of 20th-level characters facing a lantern archon swarm sounds intruiging.
BillTheManiac 08-26-07, 09:48 AM	Lantern archons die to area of effect spells, though. In fact you are allowed to subtract 1 from the EL once you hit 4 lantern archons.
runestar 08-26-07, 10:01 AM	Isn't there some sort of mob template as well? Can it apply to lantern archons?
BillTheManiac 08-26-07, 10:18 AM	The energy rays wouldn't apply, the damage becomes 5d6. The CR would be 10. Won't help.
Lyinginbedmon 08-26-07, 11:25 AM	Yeah, the feat mentions no limit or specific number of people that can share the same space. Therefore, you could indeed have any number of Lantern Archons with Swarmfighting in the same 5 ft. space. As for the numbers on Lantern Archons 30 ft. away from a given target, it works out that 109 Lantern Archons can fit into that 30 x 30 ft area, leaving one space for the target. That equals MAM 109/381.5/654 for damage.
Starmage21 08-26-07, 12:16 PM	Yeah, the feat mentions no limit or specific number of people that can share the same space. Therefore, you could indeed have any number of Lantern Archons with Swarmfighting in the same 5 ft. space. As for the numbers on Lantern Archons 30 ft. away from a given target, it works out that 109 Lantern Archons can fit into that 30 x 30 ft area, leaving one space for the target. That equals MAM 109/381.5/654 for damage. and thats if they were able to surround a medium size target. Considering the XP and GP cost of even a low DC epic spell(unless you mitigate it to zero[1/2]), 654 damage is kind of PFFFT. You might be able to do more with regular spellcasting, and a single area spell would kill them all.
BillTheManiac 08-26-07, 03:43 PM	Or you can backlash it down to 1 DC and research it-um-fast. 109 lantern archons<128 lantern archons=EL 15. That would be DC 40, right?. Backlash would be MAM 39/136.5/234, which is a lot less. And no gp and XP. Doesn't even include mitigating factors for duration down to 1 round. How much would that be?
Lyinginbedmon 08-26-07, 06:57 PM	My calculations were for the damage the Archons would do to the target, just to clarify.
bluemage55 08-31-07, 12:50 AM	So if you can use EL in place of CR for Epic Spell purposes, 512 Lantern Archons would count as a CR 20 monster. You can't. Summoning multiple creatures requires that you multiply the DC, not merely increase it by 2 per doubling. For an example, see the dragon strike epic spell.
BillTheManiac 08-31-07, 06:58 AM	You can't. Summoning multiple creatures requires that you multiply the DC, not merely increase it by 2 per doubling. For an example, see the dragon strike epic spell. Unfortunately, that means that any epic summoning spells that summon more then 1 creature will suck.
bluemage55 08-31-07, 04:34 PM	Unfortunately, that means that any epic summoning spells that summon more then 1 creature will suck. Yep. Not a problem, really.
BillTheManiac 08-31-07, 08:11 PM	Yep. Not a problem, really. Not as bad as river dragon sucks though! I laugh at the designers that thought up that spell.