Metamagic Mastery Worth Skipping a Caster Level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamagic Mastery Worth Skipping a Caster Level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
03-29-08, 03:46 PM I have a prestige class that grants a special ability called metamagic mastery. Metamagic mastery reduces by 1 the increase in the spell-level slot needed to cast a spell with metamagic, but not below zero. The class grants metamagic mastery 1 at 1st level, 2 at 5th, and 3 at 9th level. (The progression continues every 4 levels at epic levels.)

Initially I gave the prestige class a level of spell casting for each level. The party's NPC sorcerer/metamagic master, however, really outshines the party's PC wizard, at least in combat, even though right now he's got a caster level of 22 and she's got a caster level of 18. (She's got a +2 LA for being a drow, and her total level is only 20, not 22, because she doesn't earn the roleplaying experience that the wizard does. She's actually about to reach 21st, when her caster level under my original rules would rise to 19.)

The PHB II introduced the metamagic specialist alternative to having a sorcerer's familiar, which contributes to her effectiveness in combat since she no longer needs to take a full-round action to add metamagic.

I'd decided to adjust the prestige class to not grant an increase in caster level at each level where it grants an increase in metamagic mastery, i.e. where it allows her to reduce by one more the spell-level slot she need to cast with metamagic. (Right now she has metamagic mastery 2, so she can cast an empowered spell in the same level slot as the base spell, or a maximized spell in a slot only one level higher.)

As the party is moving into epic levels, I'm wondering though if reducing her caster level by one (i.e. not having it go up by one) every four levels might not be too large a payment for reducing the metamagic level slot by one. I had thought about maybe having the prestige class not grant a caster level only at 1st level, when it grants metamagic mastery 1, or perhaps have it not grant a caster level every second time it grants an increase to metamagic mastery, so at levels 1 and 9. So I really have three options:

1. Grant a caster level per level.
2. Grant a caster level only when it doesn't grant a level of metamagic mastery.
3. Grant a caster level only when it doesn't grant an odd level of metamagic mastery.

Which option seems best to you, and why? Thanks! :)
Taeldrin Laesrash
03-29-08, 07:12 PM I'm liking 3 the best. Losing CLs hurt, and the character could just take Improved Metamagic instead.
Tequila_Sunrise
03-29-08, 07:23 PM Well this Metamagic Mastery thing sounds pretty darn sweet to me! From what you're describing, it does the same thing that the epic feat Improved Metamagic does...but better because IM can't reduce a level increase below +1. In my opinion, Improved Metamagic is one of the two epic feats that scream "SPELLCASTERS PWN ALL!!!!!" the most. So seeing as how you're giving one of your players free improved Improved Metamagics before epic levels, I'd say that option #2 is fair, maybe even too generous. I don't know what else this PrC grants, but I might even call it a 1/2 caster level class.

TS
Thorsbjorn
03-29-08, 11:49 PM Thanks Taeldrin and TS.

Well this Metamagic Mastery thing sounds pretty darn sweet to me! From what you're describing, it does the same thing that the epic feat Improved Metamagic does...but better because IM can't reduce a level increase below +1. In my opinion, Improved Metamagic is one of the two epic feats that scream "SPELLCASTERS PWN ALL!!!!!" the most. So seeing as how you're giving one of your players free improved Improved Metamagics before epic levels, I'd say that option #2 is fair, maybe even too generous. I don't know what else this PrC grants, but I might even call it a 1/2 caster level class.

TS

I created the class before the Epic Level Handbook came out, so Improved Metamagic didn't exist. I actually created it, ironically, with the party's wizard in mind, but he didn't have any interest, hasn't taken any metamagic feats, and stayed with straight wizard. The PrC also grants a bonus metamagic feat ever four levels (3rd and 7th). When Improved Metamagic came out I wrote a paragraph clarifying that if you have the feat you apply metamagic mastery first, so that you can't use metamagic mastery to get around the limitation of Improved Megamagic.
Taeldrin Laesrash
03-29-08, 11:54 PM Well this Metamagic Mastery thing sounds pretty darn sweet to me! From what you're describing, it does the same thing that the epic feat Improved Metamagic does...but better because IM can't reduce a level increase below +1. In my opinion, Improved Metamagic is one of the two epic feats that scream "SPELLCASTERS PWN ALL!!!!!" the most. So seeing as how you're giving one of your players free improved Improved Metamagics before epic levels, I'd say that option #2 is fair, maybe even too generous. I don't know what else this PrC grants, but I might even call it a 1/2 caster level class.

TS

What's the other feat?

I can see where you're coming from, but a 1/2 level CL progression will put a caster far behind the necessary amount to break any SR at their level. Assuming every other level advanced a CL, they'd need to roll a 17 or higher every time to break the SR.
runestar
03-30-08, 12:16 AM In epic, a spellcaster can safely sacrifice up to 4 spellcaster lvs, since you do not get any extra slots after spellcaster lv20 anyways, and practiced spellcaster gives you up to +4 caster lv back.

How does your metamagic mastery work in tandem with multiple metamagic feats? For instance, if I had a maximized, empowered fireball, is the final slot adjustment reduced by 2 or just 1? There aren't really many feats with a slot adjustment higher than 4 (save for persistent and intensify spell), so if it is the former, there does not seem to be any practical benefit to taking your prc past the -3 slot adjustment threshold.
Thorsbjorn
03-30-08, 12:44 AM In epic, a spellcaster can safely sacrifice up to 4 spellcaster lvs, since you do not get any extra slots after spellcaster lv20 anyways, and practiced spellcaster gives you up to +4 caster lv back.

How does your metamagic mastery work in tandem with multiple metamagic feats? For instance, if I had a maximized, empowered fireball, is the final slot adjustment reduced by 2 or just 1? There aren't really many feats with a slot adjustment higher than 4 (save for persistent and intensify spell), so if it is the former, there does not seem to be any practical benefit to taking your prc past the -3 slot adjustment threshold.

Practiced Spellcaster is nice, but there are so many good feats to take, especially for a metamagic master, that it's not practical for her. Intensify spell raises the spell slot level by 7. A quickened intensified spell raises the spell slot by 11. A widened quickened intensified spell raises the spell slot level by 14. With 9 levels of metamagic master, you get metamagic mastery 3. With 17 levels of metamagic master (i.e. at least 27th level) you get metamagic mastery 5. So the desire for increasing levels of metamagic mastery can continue for many, many more levels.

At metamagic mastery 5, you could cast an empowered maximized fireball in a 3rd-level slot. At metamagic mastery 3, you could cast an empowered maximized fireball in a 5th level slot. Metamagic mastery subtracts a number from the total increase in the spell's slot level, not from the spell slot increase of each metamagic feat.
Tequila_Sunrise
03-30-08, 01:26 AM I created the class before the Epic Level Handbook came out, so Improved Metamagic didn't exist. I actually created it, ironically, with the party's wizard in mind, but he didn't have any interest, hasn't taken any metamagic feats, and stayed with straight wizard. The PrC also grants a bonus metamagic feat ever four levels (3rd and 7th). When Improved Metamagic came out I wrote a paragraph clarifying that if you have the feat you apply metamagic mastery first, so that you can't use metamagic mastery to get around the limitation of Improved Megamagic.

Okay, so from your further description of MM it doesn't sound as good as IM. I still probably would not allow such an ability in my game, but that's neither here nor there in your situation. All in all, I maintain #2 as my favorite option for this campaign.

What's the other feat?
Multispell. Honestly, I don't know how in Pelor's name this feat got past...oh right, there was no playtest to speak of. :rolleyes: This is why I'm a believer in the "less is more" adage; if WotC put out less books, those they did put out would likely be have much more quality.
Thorsbjorn
03-30-08, 01:36 AM Okay, so from your further description of MM it doesn't sound as good as IM. I still probably would not allow such an ability in my game, but that's neither here nor there in your situation. All in all, I maintain #2 as my favorite option for this campaign.

Multispell. Honestly, I don't know how in Pelor's name this feat got past...oh right, there was no playtest to speak of. :rolleyes: This is why I'm a believer in the "less is more" adage; if WotC put out less books, those they did put out would likely be have much more quality.

Metamagic mastery is both better and worse than Improved Metamagic: better because it allows you to reduce the level adjustment to zero; worse because it applies only to the total level adjustment, not to each feat at the same time.

I agree that Wizards would have done better to produce fewer books of higher quality rather than flooding the market with as many books as possible, no matter how sloppily done. They were working on Deities and Demigods at the same time they were working on Epic Level Handbook, and both suffered as a consequence, although the Epic Level Handbook suffered more.

At some point I'd changed the class to skip a level of spellcasting each time the class granted metamagic mastery, so right now I'm leaning toward keeping it that way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 03-29-08, 03:46 PM	I have a prestige class that grants a special ability called metamagic mastery. Metamagic mastery reduces by 1 the increase in the spell-level slot needed to cast a spell with metamagic, but not below zero. The class grants metamagic mastery 1 at 1st level, 2 at 5th, and 3 at 9th level. (The progression continues every 4 levels at epic levels.) Initially I gave the prestige class a level of spell casting for each level. The party's NPC sorcerer/metamagic master, however, really outshines the party's PC wizard, at least in combat, even though right now he's got a caster level of 22 and she's got a caster level of 18. (She's got a +2 LA for being a drow, and her total level is only 20, not 22, because she doesn't earn the roleplaying experience that the wizard does. She's actually about to reach 21st, when her caster level under my original rules would rise to 19.) The PHB II introduced the metamagic specialist alternative to having a sorcerer's familiar, which contributes to her effectiveness in combat since she no longer needs to take a full-round action to add metamagic. I'd decided to adjust the prestige class to not grant an increase in caster level at each level where it grants an increase in metamagic mastery, i.e. where it allows her to reduce by one more the spell-level slot she need to cast with metamagic. (Right now she has metamagic mastery 2, so she can cast an empowered spell in the same level slot as the base spell, or a maximized spell in a slot only one level higher.) As the party is moving into epic levels, I'm wondering though if reducing her caster level by one (i.e. not having it go up by one) every four levels might not be too large a payment for reducing the metamagic level slot by one. I had thought about maybe having the prestige class not grant a caster level only at 1st level, when it grants metamagic mastery 1, or perhaps have it not grant a caster level every second time it grants an increase to metamagic mastery, so at levels 1 and 9. So I really have three options: 1. Grant a caster level per level. 2. Grant a caster level only when it doesn't grant a level of metamagic mastery. 3. Grant a caster level only when it doesn't grant an odd level of metamagic mastery. Which option seems best to you, and why? Thanks! :)
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-29-08, 07:12 PM	I'm liking 3 the best. Losing CLs hurt, and the character could just take Improved Metamagic instead.
Tequila_Sunrise 03-29-08, 07:23 PM	Well this Metamagic Mastery thing sounds pretty darn sweet to me! From what you're describing, it does the same thing that the epic feat Improved Metamagic does...but better because IM can't reduce a level increase below +1. In my opinion, Improved Metamagic is one of the two epic feats that scream "SPELLCASTERS PWN ALL!!!!!" the most. So seeing as how you're giving one of your players free improved Improved Metamagics before epic levels, I'd say that option #2 is fair, maybe even too generous. I don't know what else this PrC grants, but I might even call it a 1/2 caster level class. TS
Thorsbjorn 03-29-08, 11:49 PM	Thanks Taeldrin and TS. Well this Metamagic Mastery thing sounds pretty darn sweet to me! From what you're describing, it does the same thing that the epic feat Improved Metamagic does...but better because IM can't reduce a level increase below +1. In my opinion, Improved Metamagic is one of the two epic feats that scream "SPELLCASTERS PWN ALL!!!!!" the most. So seeing as how you're giving one of your players free improved Improved Metamagics before epic levels, I'd say that option #2 is fair, maybe even too generous. I don't know what else this PrC grants, but I might even call it a 1/2 caster level class. TS I created the class before the Epic Level Handbook came out, so Improved Metamagic didn't exist. I actually created it, ironically, with the party's wizard in mind, but he didn't have any interest, hasn't taken any metamagic feats, and stayed with straight wizard. The PrC also grants a bonus metamagic feat ever four levels (3rd and 7th). When Improved Metamagic came out I wrote a paragraph clarifying that if you have the feat you apply metamagic mastery first, so that you can't use metamagic mastery to get around the limitation of Improved Megamagic.
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-29-08, 11:54 PM	Well this Metamagic Mastery thing sounds pretty darn sweet to me! From what you're describing, it does the same thing that the epic feat Improved Metamagic does...but better because IM can't reduce a level increase below +1. In my opinion, Improved Metamagic is one of the two epic feats that scream "SPELLCASTERS PWN ALL!!!!!" the most. So seeing as how you're giving one of your players free improved Improved Metamagics before epic levels, I'd say that option #2 is fair, maybe even too generous. I don't know what else this PrC grants, but I might even call it a 1/2 caster level class. TS What's the other feat? I can see where you're coming from, but a 1/2 level CL progression will put a caster far behind the necessary amount to break any SR at their level. Assuming every other level advanced a CL, they'd need to roll a 17 or higher every time to break the SR.
runestar 03-30-08, 12:16 AM	In epic, a spellcaster can safely sacrifice up to 4 spellcaster lvs, since you do not get any extra slots after spellcaster lv20 anyways, and practiced spellcaster gives you up to +4 caster lv back. How does your metamagic mastery work in tandem with multiple metamagic feats? For instance, if I had a maximized, empowered fireball, is the final slot adjustment reduced by 2 or just 1? There aren't really many feats with a slot adjustment higher than 4 (save for persistent and intensify spell), so if it is the former, there does not seem to be any practical benefit to taking your prc past the -3 slot adjustment threshold.
Thorsbjorn 03-30-08, 12:44 AM	In epic, a spellcaster can safely sacrifice up to 4 spellcaster lvs, since you do not get any extra slots after spellcaster lv20 anyways, and practiced spellcaster gives you up to +4 caster lv back. How does your metamagic mastery work in tandem with multiple metamagic feats? For instance, if I had a maximized, empowered fireball, is the final slot adjustment reduced by 2 or just 1? There aren't really many feats with a slot adjustment higher than 4 (save for persistent and intensify spell), so if it is the former, there does not seem to be any practical benefit to taking your prc past the -3 slot adjustment threshold. Practiced Spellcaster is nice, but there are so many good feats to take, especially for a metamagic master, that it's not practical for her. Intensify spell raises the spell slot level by 7. A quickened intensified spell raises the spell slot by 11. A widened quickened intensified spell raises the spell slot level by 14. With 9 levels of metamagic master, you get metamagic mastery 3. With 17 levels of metamagic master (i.e. at least 27th level) you get metamagic mastery 5. So the desire for increasing levels of metamagic mastery can continue for many, many more levels. At metamagic mastery 5, you could cast an empowered maximized fireball in a 3rd-level slot. At metamagic mastery 3, you could cast an empowered maximized fireball in a 5th level slot. Metamagic mastery subtracts a number from the total increase in the spell's slot level, not from the spell slot increase of each metamagic feat.
Tequila_Sunrise 03-30-08, 01:26 AM	I created the class before the Epic Level Handbook came out, so Improved Metamagic didn't exist. I actually created it, ironically, with the party's wizard in mind, but he didn't have any interest, hasn't taken any metamagic feats, and stayed with straight wizard. The PrC also grants a bonus metamagic feat ever four levels (3rd and 7th). When Improved Metamagic came out I wrote a paragraph clarifying that if you have the feat you apply metamagic mastery first, so that you can't use metamagic mastery to get around the limitation of Improved Megamagic. Okay, so from your further description of MM it doesn't sound as good as IM. I still probably would not allow such an ability in my game, but that's neither here nor there in your situation. All in all, I maintain #2 as my favorite option for this campaign. What's the other feat? Multispell. Honestly, I don't know how in Pelor's name this feat got past...oh right, there was no playtest to speak of. :rolleyes: This is why I'm a believer in the "less is more" adage; if WotC put out less books, those they did put out would likely be have much more quality.
Thorsbjorn 03-30-08, 01:36 AM	Okay, so from your further description of MM it doesn't sound as good as IM. I still probably would not allow such an ability in my game, but that's neither here nor there in your situation. All in all, I maintain #2 as my favorite option for this campaign. Multispell. Honestly, I don't know how in Pelor's name this feat got past...oh right, there was no playtest to speak of. :rolleyes: This is why I'm a believer in the "less is more" adage; if WotC put out less books, those they did put out would likely be have much more quality. Metamagic mastery is both better and worse than Improved Metamagic: better because it allows you to reduce the level adjustment to zero; worse because it applies only to the total level adjustment, not to each feat at the same time. I agree that Wizards would have done better to produce fewer books of higher quality rather than flooding the market with as many books as possible, no matter how sloppily done. They were working on Deities and Demigods at the same time they were working on Epic Level Handbook, and both suffered as a consequence, although the Epic Level Handbook suffered more. At some point I'd changed the class to skip a level of spellcasting each time the class granted metamagic mastery, so right now I'm leaning toward keeping it that way.