Mindflayer: Wizard vs. Telepath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mindflayer: Wizard vs. Telepath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
09-16-07, 05:55 AM I'm putting together a 30th-level challenge, the head of a enemy government "intelligence" operation in the country where the PCs currently have their base of operations. He or she is known only as "The Tentacle." The Tentacle has already had agents attempt to assassinate one of the PCs on three separate occasions.

I'd originally planned to make The Tentacle a 30th-level human assassin, but today I was thinking that it would be fun if The Tentacle actually had tentacles--in other words, if he or she were actually a mindflayer.

I'm not sure if I'll go this route, but if I do I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the relative merits of 22 levels of wizard versus 22 levels of telepath. Thanks! :)
Tshern
09-16-07, 07:01 AM Epic spellcasting wins.
Thorsbjorn
09-16-07, 08:20 AM Epic spellcasting wins.

Is it better than epic manifestation? Also with the telepath, the mindflayer would have a manifester level of 31 instead of only 22.
runestar
09-16-07, 08:25 AM At epic lvs, either route is equally viable, and no less powerful than the other.

Bearing in mind that wizard would be a non-associated class for mind-flayers, a mindflayer wiz26 would be cr 30. Slap on practiced spellcaster and you are getting caster lv30 for cr30.

For psionic mindflayer telepath22, you get manifestor lv31.

Not that much difference in terms of power lv, IMO.:)
Thorsbjorn
09-16-07, 08:32 AM At epic lvs, either route is equally viable, and no less powerful than the other.

Bearing in mind that wizard would be a non-associated class for mind-flayers, a mindflayer wiz26 would be cr 30. Slap on practiced spellcaster and you are getting caster lv30 for cr30.

For psionic mindflayer telepath22, you get manifestor lv31.

Not that much difference in terms of power lv, IMO.:)

I'm afraid that the wizard is not a non-associated class: the mindflayer's favored class is wizard, and the Monster Manual lists the CR of a regular mindflayer at 8, and of a mindflayer wizard 9 at 17. So wizard gets +1 CR/level of wizard. So we're comparing wizard level 22 to manifestor level of 31.

Are there any decent epic powers anywhere?
runestar
09-16-07, 10:00 AM Note that the MM gives stats for a mindflayer sorc9, not wiz9.

It has also been updated somewhat. If you look at Lords of Madness, an alhoon (illithid sorc12 lich) is only cr18 (which suggests that sorc is non-associated), thus contradicting (and supposedly superceding) the entry in MM. By extension, wiz should follow the same pattern as well.:)
Tshern
09-16-07, 10:31 AM But Psion's don't get epic powers. They just get their manifester level increased, while Wizard's can come up with some sick spells. At least that's the way I see it.
BillTheManiac
09-16-07, 01:21 PM But Psion's don't get epic powers. They just get their manifester level increased, while Wizard's can come up with some sick spells. At least that's the way I see it.

Of course they don't. It's not like there's an epic powers section in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)
Tshern
09-16-07, 02:39 PM Of course they don't. It's not like there's an epic powers section in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)
Don't I feel stupid now? I consult SRD almost on a daily basis when I am on vacation from the military service and I've used it for a long time already and I still haven't spotted that! Heck, I need to have a glance at that next weekend..
Thorsbjorn
09-16-07, 11:34 PM Note that the MM gives stats for a mindflayer sorc9, not wiz9.

It has also been updated somewhat. If you look at Lords of Madness, an alhoon (illithid sorc12 lich) is only cr18 (which suggests that sorc is non-associated), thus contradicting (and supposedly superceding) the entry in MM. By extension, wiz should follow the same pattern as well.:)

I don't accept something out of a book that I never bothered to buy because of its limited applicability. Even if I'd bought the book and liked it, I wouldn't assume that it had an official change unless it made a point of saying so; I'd assume that the authors of the new book simply didn't pay attention to the Monster Manual. The expansion books, as you know, contain many errors of that sort.

The mindflayer, furthermore, has wizard as its favored class, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say the wizard represents a non-associated class. You can't get much more associated than the race's favored class. :P (Using your own argument, the sorcerer, by extension, as it gives the mindflayer the same sort of powers as the wizard, should also qualify as an associated class.:D)

Of course they don't. It's not like there's an epic powers section in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)

Thanks. I was hoping that someone had created some epic powers, but I guess in a pinch I could just use the effects of epic spells based on the seeds of the same names. :)
Sagetim
09-17-07, 12:41 AM I don't accept something out of a book that I never bothered to buy because of its limited applicability. Even if I'd bought the book and liked it, I wouldn't assume that it had an official change unless it made a point of saying so; I'd assume that the authors of the new book simply didn't pay attention to the Monster Manual. The expansion books, as you know, contain many errors of that sort.

The mindflayer, furthermore, has wizard as its favored class, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say the wizard represents a non-associated class. You can't get much more associated than the race's favored class. :P (Using your own argument, the sorcerer, by extension, as it gives the mindflayer the same sort of powers as the wizard, should also qualify as an associated class.:D)

Thanks. I was hoping that someone had created some epic powers, but I guess in a pinch I could just use the effects of epic spells based on the seeds of the same names. :)
I'll throw my hat into the ring...in the expanded psionics handbook, it has a stat listing for the mind flayer. It reads as follows:
"mind flayers are detailed in the monster manual, however mind flayers in a psionic campaign should be adjusted as follows."
instead of magic they get psionic powers
SQ: power resist of 25, telepathy 100ft
skills ...blah blah blah
feats
combat manifestation, improved initiative, weapon finess
instead of spell like abilities, the mind flayer has the following psionic powers:
manifests powers as a level 9 telepath
dc 14+power level
powers known:
1st- defensive precognition, detect psionics, mind thrust, psionic charm, vigor
2nd- body equilibrium, ego whip, id insinuation, psionic levitate, psionic suggestion, read thoughts
3rd- body adjustment, dispel psionics, mental barrier
4th- intellect fortress, psionic dimension door, psionic dominate
5th- psionic mind probe, plane shift

I would assume that favored class would change from wizard to psion (telepath). However, it wasn't stated in the entry for expanded psionics handbook.
Thorsbjorn
09-17-07, 12:50 AM I'll throw my hat into the ring...in the expanded psionics handbook, it has a stat listing for the mind flayer. It reads as follows:
"mind flayers are detailed in the monster manual, however mind flayers in a psionic campaign should be adjusted as follows."
instead of magic they get psionic powers
SQ: power resist of 25, telepathy 100ft
skills ...blah blah blah
feats
combat manifestation, improved initiative, weapon finess
instead of spell like abilities, the mind flayer has the following psionic powers:
manifests powers as a level 9 telepath
dc 14+power level
powers known:
1st- defensive precognition, detect psionics, mind thrust, psionic charm, vigor
2nd- body equilibrium, ego whip, id insinuation, psionic levitate, psionic suggestion, read thoughts
3rd- body adjustment, dispel psionics, mental barrier
4th- intellect fortress, psionic dimension door, psionic dominate
5th- psionic mind probe, plane shift

I would assume that favored class would change from wizard to psion (telepath). However, it wasn't stated in the entry for expanded psionics handbook.

Oh, I wish you'd asked first--I have the book and have looked at the entry--but thank you very much for offering it. That's a lot of typing that you had to do! :)

You're right that it doesn't change the favored class, and I agree that changing it makes sense, but that wouldn't in my mind change the associated nature of a spell-casting class. Even if it did, I'm comparing the non-psionic mindflayer with the wizard favored class to the psionic mindflayer with the (presumed) psion favored class, so wizard would still be an associated class for the comparison. :)
Sagetim
09-17-07, 01:44 AM Oh, I wish you'd asked first--I have the book and have looked at the entry--but thank you very much for offering it. That's a lot of typing that you had to do! :)

You're right that it doesn't change the favored class, and I agree that changing it makes sense, but that wouldn't in my mind change the associated nature of a spell-casting class. Even if it did, I'm comparing the non-psionic mindflayer with the wizard favored class to the psionic mindflayer with the (presumed) psion favored class, so wizard would still be an associated class for the comparison. :)

oh, and I believe the monster manual 3.5 has 2 mind flayers presented. A basic one, and one with 9 levels of sorcerer added in. The sorcerer mind flayer being a 'crazy ass outcast'.
Thorsbjorn
09-17-07, 01:53 AM oh, and I believe the monster manual 3.5 has 2 mind flayers presented. A basic one, and one with 9 levels of sorcerer added in. The sorcerer mind flayer being a 'crazy ass outcast'.

It does contain two, as runestar and I have been discussing, although there's nothing about the sorcerer being an outcast. :)
Sagetim
09-17-07, 02:41 AM It does contain two, as runestar and I have been discussing, although there's nothing about the sorcerer being an outcast. :)

oh really? pretty sure that was in there...maybe it was the abberations book then. Anywho, Mind Flayer wizards are supposed to be the 'norm' with mind flayer sorcerers being 'deranged outcasts of society'. In psionic terms: Psion and Wilder. Or Psion and Sorcerer.
runestar
09-17-07, 04:39 AM The mindflayer, furthermore, has wizard as its favored class, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say the wizard represents a non-associated class.

I would say that favoured class and non-associated classes are 2 very different things. Favoured class is the class you are better pre-disposed towards because of whatever reason they cooked up, non-associated classes are those which do not directly improve your prowess, and thus improve your cr more slowly as a result.

Thus, there seems nothing mutually exclusive about these 2. A favoured class can be non-associated. There is no way a mindflayer sor9 can be expected to stack up to a sorc17.

Likewise, it does not make sense how a mindflayer wiz22 can possibly be as tough as one with 22 lvs of psion, when it seems fairly obvious that the former is weaker than the other. You have all but admitted it yourself in your first few posts.:)
rob_douglas
09-17-07, 11:14 PM I agree with Runestar. Makes it hard to use Mind Flayers in a non-psionic campaign (like mine). I might have to let them use Psionics, but not the PCs.

But clearly, nothing about being a Wizard helps the Mind Flayer directly, given that caster level does not stack. You could allow the caster level to be increased much as manifester level is, then you would have a 31st level caster, and should then treat wizard levels as associated.

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 09-16-07, 05:55 AM	I'm putting together a 30th-level challenge, the head of a enemy government "intelligence" operation in the country where the PCs currently have their base of operations. He or she is known only as "The Tentacle." The Tentacle has already had agents attempt to assassinate one of the PCs on three separate occasions. I'd originally planned to make The Tentacle a 30th-level human assassin, but today I was thinking that it would be fun if The Tentacle actually had tentacles--in other words, if he or she were actually a mindflayer. I'm not sure if I'll go this route, but if I do I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the relative merits of 22 levels of wizard versus 22 levels of telepath. Thanks! :)
Tshern 09-16-07, 07:01 AM	Epic spellcasting wins.
Thorsbjorn 09-16-07, 08:20 AM	Epic spellcasting wins. Is it better than epic manifestation? Also with the telepath, the mindflayer would have a manifester level of 31 instead of only 22.
runestar 09-16-07, 08:25 AM	At epic lvs, either route is equally viable, and no less powerful than the other. Bearing in mind that wizard would be a non-associated class for mind-flayers, a mindflayer wiz26 would be cr 30. Slap on practiced spellcaster and you are getting caster lv30 for cr30. For psionic mindflayer telepath22, you get manifestor lv31. Not that much difference in terms of power lv, IMO.:)
Thorsbjorn 09-16-07, 08:32 AM	At epic lvs, either route is equally viable, and no less powerful than the other. Bearing in mind that wizard would be a non-associated class for mind-flayers, a mindflayer wiz26 would be cr 30. Slap on practiced spellcaster and you are getting caster lv30 for cr30. For psionic mindflayer telepath22, you get manifestor lv31. Not that much difference in terms of power lv, IMO.:) I'm afraid that the wizard is not a non-associated class: the mindflayer's favored class is wizard, and the Monster Manual lists the CR of a regular mindflayer at 8, and of a mindflayer wizard 9 at 17. So wizard gets +1 CR/level of wizard. So we're comparing wizard level 22 to manifestor level of 31. Are there any decent epic powers anywhere?
runestar 09-16-07, 10:00 AM	Note that the MM gives stats for a mindflayer sorc9, not wiz9. It has also been updated somewhat. If you look at Lords of Madness, an alhoon (illithid sorc12 lich) is only cr18 (which suggests that sorc is non-associated), thus contradicting (and supposedly superceding) the entry in MM. By extension, wiz should follow the same pattern as well.:)
Tshern 09-16-07, 10:31 AM	But Psion's don't get epic powers. They just get their manifester level increased, while Wizard's can come up with some sick spells. At least that's the way I see it.
BillTheManiac 09-16-07, 01:21 PM	But Psion's don't get epic powers. They just get their manifester level increased, while Wizard's can come up with some sick spells. At least that's the way I see it. Of course they don't. It's not like there's an epic powers section in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)
Tshern 09-16-07, 02:39 PM	Of course they don't. It's not like there's an epic powers section in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm) Don't I feel stupid now? I consult SRD almost on a daily basis when I am on vacation from the military service and I've used it for a long time already and I still haven't spotted that! Heck, I need to have a glance at that next weekend..
Thorsbjorn 09-16-07, 11:34 PM	Note that the MM gives stats for a mindflayer sorc9, not wiz9. It has also been updated somewhat. If you look at Lords of Madness, an alhoon (illithid sorc12 lich) is only cr18 (which suggests that sorc is non-associated), thus contradicting (and supposedly superceding) the entry in MM. By extension, wiz should follow the same pattern as well.:) I don't accept something out of a book that I never bothered to buy because of its limited applicability. Even if I'd bought the book and liked it, I wouldn't assume that it had an official change unless it made a point of saying so; I'd assume that the authors of the new book simply didn't pay attention to the Monster Manual. The expansion books, as you know, contain many errors of that sort. The mindflayer, furthermore, has wizard as its favored class, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say the wizard represents a non-associated class. You can't get much more associated than the race's favored class. :P (Using your own argument, the sorcerer, by extension, as it gives the mindflayer the same sort of powers as the wizard, should also qualify as an associated class.:D) Of course they don't. It's not like there's an epic powers section in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm) Thanks. I was hoping that someone had created some epic powers, but I guess in a pinch I could just use the effects of epic spells based on the seeds of the same names. :)
Sagetim 09-17-07, 12:41 AM	I don't accept something out of a book that I never bothered to buy because of its limited applicability. Even if I'd bought the book and liked it, I wouldn't assume that it had an official change unless it made a point of saying so; I'd assume that the authors of the new book simply didn't pay attention to the Monster Manual. The expansion books, as you know, contain many errors of that sort. The mindflayer, furthermore, has wizard as its favored class, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say the wizard represents a non-associated class. You can't get much more associated than the race's favored class. :P (Using your own argument, the sorcerer, by extension, as it gives the mindflayer the same sort of powers as the wizard, should also qualify as an associated class.:D) Thanks. I was hoping that someone had created some epic powers, but I guess in a pinch I could just use the effects of epic spells based on the seeds of the same names. :) I'll throw my hat into the ring...in the expanded psionics handbook, it has a stat listing for the mind flayer. It reads as follows: "mind flayers are detailed in the monster manual, however mind flayers in a psionic campaign should be adjusted as follows." instead of magic they get psionic powers SQ: power resist of 25, telepathy 100ft skills ...blah blah blah feats combat manifestation, improved initiative, weapon finess instead of spell like abilities, the mind flayer has the following psionic powers: manifests powers as a level 9 telepath dc 14+power level powers known: 1st- defensive precognition, detect psionics, mind thrust, psionic charm, vigor 2nd- body equilibrium, ego whip, id insinuation, psionic levitate, psionic suggestion, read thoughts 3rd- body adjustment, dispel psionics, mental barrier 4th- intellect fortress, psionic dimension door, psionic dominate 5th- psionic mind probe, plane shift I would assume that favored class would change from wizard to psion (telepath). However, it wasn't stated in the entry for expanded psionics handbook.
Thorsbjorn 09-17-07, 12:50 AM	I'll throw my hat into the ring...in the expanded psionics handbook, it has a stat listing for the mind flayer. It reads as follows: "mind flayers are detailed in the monster manual, however mind flayers in a psionic campaign should be adjusted as follows." instead of magic they get psionic powers SQ: power resist of 25, telepathy 100ft skills ...blah blah blah feats combat manifestation, improved initiative, weapon finess instead of spell like abilities, the mind flayer has the following psionic powers: manifests powers as a level 9 telepath dc 14+power level powers known: 1st- defensive precognition, detect psionics, mind thrust, psionic charm, vigor 2nd- body equilibrium, ego whip, id insinuation, psionic levitate, psionic suggestion, read thoughts 3rd- body adjustment, dispel psionics, mental barrier 4th- intellect fortress, psionic dimension door, psionic dominate 5th- psionic mind probe, plane shift I would assume that favored class would change from wizard to psion (telepath). However, it wasn't stated in the entry for expanded psionics handbook. Oh, I wish you'd asked first--I have the book and have looked at the entry--but thank you very much for offering it. That's a lot of typing that you had to do! :) You're right that it doesn't change the favored class, and I agree that changing it makes sense, but that wouldn't in my mind change the associated nature of a spell-casting class. Even if it did, I'm comparing the non-psionic mindflayer with the wizard favored class to the psionic mindflayer with the (presumed) psion favored class, so wizard would still be an associated class for the comparison. :)
Sagetim 09-17-07, 01:44 AM	Oh, I wish you'd asked first--I have the book and have looked at the entry--but thank you very much for offering it. That's a lot of typing that you had to do! :) You're right that it doesn't change the favored class, and I agree that changing it makes sense, but that wouldn't in my mind change the associated nature of a spell-casting class. Even if it did, I'm comparing the non-psionic mindflayer with the wizard favored class to the psionic mindflayer with the (presumed) psion favored class, so wizard would still be an associated class for the comparison. :) oh, and I believe the monster manual 3.5 has 2 mind flayers presented. A basic one, and one with 9 levels of sorcerer added in. The sorcerer mind flayer being a 'crazy ass outcast'.
Thorsbjorn 09-17-07, 01:53 AM	oh, and I believe the monster manual 3.5 has 2 mind flayers presented. A basic one, and one with 9 levels of sorcerer added in. The sorcerer mind flayer being a 'crazy ass outcast'. It does contain two, as runestar and I have been discussing, although there's nothing about the sorcerer being an outcast. :)
Sagetim 09-17-07, 02:41 AM	It does contain two, as runestar and I have been discussing, although there's nothing about the sorcerer being an outcast. :) oh really? pretty sure that was in there...maybe it was the abberations book then. Anywho, Mind Flayer wizards are supposed to be the 'norm' with mind flayer sorcerers being 'deranged outcasts of society'. In psionic terms: Psion and Wilder. Or Psion and Sorcerer.
runestar 09-17-07, 04:39 AM	The mindflayer, furthermore, has wizard as its favored class, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say the wizard represents a non-associated class. I would say that favoured class and non-associated classes are 2 very different things. Favoured class is the class you are better pre-disposed towards because of whatever reason they cooked up, non-associated classes are those which do not directly improve your prowess, and thus improve your cr more slowly as a result. Thus, there seems nothing mutually exclusive about these 2. A favoured class can be non-associated. There is no way a mindflayer sor9 can be expected to stack up to a sorc17. Likewise, it does not make sense how a mindflayer wiz22 can possibly be as tough as one with 22 lvs of psion, when it seems fairly obvious that the former is weaker than the other. You have all but admitted it yourself in your first few posts.:)
rob_douglas 09-17-07, 11:14 PM	I agree with Runestar. Makes it hard to use Mind Flayers in a non-psionic campaign (like mine). I might have to let them use Psionics, but not the PCs. But clearly, nothing about being a Wizard helps the Mind Flayer directly, given that caster level does not stack. You could allow the caster level to be increased much as manifester level is, then you would have a 31st level caster, and should then treat wizard levels as associated. ROB