Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Light_Colonel 02-01-07, 10:38 PM	I think everything I have done here is pretty solid, with the exception of the two Epic Vestiges I created. I have a hard time judging if they are overpowered or not powerful enough. As a side note for the strictly legal minded, I kind of rounded stuff off with the basic progression of the binder, the way it would work following a pure mathmatical progression would look weird and I think be more overpowered than the rounding off I did with the abilities. I hope you like my ideas and I certainly hope Wizards likes the ideas. Please let me know what you think of my interpretation of the Epic Binder, I put a lot of work in on it, though it doesn't look as good as the word version of it. EPIC BINDER Hit Die: d8. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Soul Binding (Su): The epic binder may make a pact with additional Vestige every 5 levels after 20th. Pact Augmentation: The epic binder adds additional abilities as described in the Pact Augmentation section of the Tome of Magic (Pg. 11) every 4 levels after 20th. Maximum Vestige Level: The epic binder’s maximum vestige level does not increase after 20th level; however he can take feats to gain additional epic level Vestiges. Bonus Feats: The epic binder gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic binder feats) every three levels after 20th. Epic Binder Bonus Feat List: Additional Magic Item Space, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus, Epic Toughness, Epic Vestige*, Epic Will, Extended Life Span, Fast Healing, Great Charisma, Great Constitution, Intensify Supernatural Ability*, Legendary Bargainer*, Perfect Health, Superior Initiative, Superior Vestige Focus*. *New feat described in this post. The binder is also considered to be qualified for certain epic feats when certain vestiges are bound. For example: An Epic Level Binder could take the Epic Feat “Improved Death Attack” without meeting the qualifications, however he could use the feat so long as he is bound to Marchosias, King of Killers and a different vestige which would grant him Sneak Attack. Table: THE EPIC BINDER Binder Level Special 21st - 22nd - 23rd Bonus feat 24th Pact augmentation (6 abilities) 25th Soul binding (5 vestiges) 26th Bonus feat 27th - 28th Pact augmentation (7 abilities) 29th Bonus feat 30th Soul binding (6 vestiges) Most vestiges function as they did (Vestiges which do damage at mathmatical progressions i.e. Amon's Flame Breath does 1d6/ level Tenebrous cold does 1d8+1d8 per 4 levels after 7th etc. continuing along the same progression), however some supernatural abilities of vestiges continue increasing the power they give after 20th level as noted below: Agares: Elemental Companion continues growing in size as shown on the table below. Table 1-1: Elemental Companion Effective Binder Level Elemental Size 19th-22nd Huge 23rd-26th Greater 27th-30th Elder 31st-34th Elder +12HD 35th-38th Elder +24HD 39th+ Primal Buer: Fast Healing continues to increase every 3 levels. (So fast healing 5 at 19, fast healing 6 at 22, fast healing 7 at 25 etc.) Chupoclops: Not so much an ability increase, as a side note. His Poison Bite ability says it is poisonous, though no damage for the poison is given. I would suggest the poison be: DC = 10+ (1/2 Effective Binder Level) +Constitution Modifier. As he is listed as being a Phase Spider (essentially), I would say it should be a scaling Dex poison like this: Table 1-2: Chupoclops Poison Effective Binder Level Poison Damage 1st-14th Initial and secondary damage 1d4 Dex 15th-17th Initial and secondary damage 1d6 Dex 18th-20th Initial and secondary damage 1d8 Dex 21st-25th Initial and secondary damage 2d6 Dex 26th-30th Initial and secondary damage 2d8 Dex 31st+ Initial and secondary damage 4d6 Dex Eligor: Eligor’s Resilience. Natural Armor bonus continues to accrue at +1 per 4 levels after 20th. (So +6 at 24, +7 at 28 etc.) Eurynome: Eurynome’s Maul gains power after 20th level as shown on the table below. Table 1-3: Eurynome’s Maul Effective Binder Level Warhammer Summoned 19th-22nd +3 anarchic adamantine warhammer 23rd-26th +5 anarchic adamantine warhammer 27th-30th +5 adamantine warhammer of anarchic power 31st-34th +7 adamantine warhammer of anarchic power 35th-38th +9 adamantine warhammer of anarchic power 39th+ +2 for every four additional levels Savnok: Call Armor. The summoned armor continues to improve as shown on the table below. Table 1-4: Call Armor Effective Binder Level Armor Summoned 20th-24th +4 heavy fortification full plate 25th-29th +5 heavy fortification full plate 30th-34th +6 heavy fortification full plate 35th+ Etc. Tenebrous: Vessel of Emptiness. The times you may use Flicker per day increase at a rate of one additional use per six levels after 19th. (Four times per day at 25th, five at 31st, etc.) MAXIMIZE SUPERNATURAL ABILITY Prerequisite: 12 HD, supernatural ability. Benefit: Once per day, you can maximize a supernatural ability. When you use a maximized supernatural ability all variable, numeric effects of a maximized supernatural ability are maximized. You must declare use of this feat before you use the ability. This feat has no effect on supernatural abilities without random variables. This feat has no effect on saving throws or opposed rolls. Special: This feat can be gained multiple times. Each time it is taken, you can maximize a supernatural ability one additional time per day. QUICKEN SUPERNATURAL ABILITY Prerequisite: 10 HD, supernatural ability. Benefit: Once per day, you can quicken a supernatural ability. When you use a quickened supernatural ability it is activated as a swift action rather than a standard action. You must declare use of this feat before you use the ability. This feat has no effect on supernatural abilities that are already activated as a swift action and will not work on supernatural abilities with an activation time greater than a standard action. Special: This feat can be gained multiple times. Each time it is taken, you can quicken a supernatural ability one additional time per day. INTENSIFY SUPERNATURAL ABILITY [EPIC] Prerequisite: 21 HD, Empower Supernatural Ability, Maximize Supernatural Ability, supernatural ability. Benefit: Once per day, you can intensify a supernatural ability. All variable, numeric effects of an intensified supernatural ability are maximized, and then doubled. An intensified supernatural ability deals twice maximum damage, cures twice the maximum number of hit points, affects twice the maximum number of targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected. A character can’t combine the effects of this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a supernatural ability. Special: This feat can be gained multiple times. Each time it is taken, you can intensify a supernatural ability one additional time per day. LEGENDARY BARGAINER [EPIC] Prerequisite: Cha 21, Diplomacy 21 ranks, Intimidate 15 ranks, Skilled Pact Making, Soul Binding, base Will save +4. Benefit: You gain a +10 bonus on binding checks and on Diplomacy checks to haggle with an NPC merchant. EPIC VESTIGE [EPIC] Prerequisites: Binder Level 21+. Benefit: You are able to contact and make a pact with an epic level vestige. These vestiges have extra requirements regarding which vestige you may choose. Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, choose a different epic vestige which you meet the requirements to contact. Regardless of how many epic vestiges you are able to contact, you may only be bound to a single epic vestige at a time. SUPERIOR VESTIGE FOCUS [EPIC] Prerequisites: Favored Vestige Focus and Vestige Focus for the vestige selected, binder level 21+. Benefit: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws of supernatural abilities and increase your effective binder level by 1 for the vestige the character selects to focus on. This stacks with the bonuses from Vestige Focus and Favored Vestige Focus. Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the character takes the feat, it applies to a different vestige which the character must have separate vestige focus and favored vestige focus for. EPIC VESTIGES: The Epic vestiges presented below are extremely powerful beings whose near divinity vastly exceeds that of the lesser vestiges. Epic vestiges use all of the normal rules for vestiges with the following additions: • The Special Requirement of an Epic Vestige can NEVER be ignored. • An Epic Vestige ALWAYS has influence over you, even if you make a good pact. If you wish to go against the wishes of the vestige (and take the associated penalties) you must make a binding check. If you are in a bad pact with the vestige the DC of the binding check to override its influence is increased by 20. • You must ALWAYS show the sign of the Epic Vestige. Once a powerful healer, mystic and champion of the meek, Bayle now exists as only a vestige. Legend: Once a holy man, Bayle continually strived to ease suffering in the world and to fight the forces of evil. At the end of his life though, he was tricked by the forces of evil into committing a truly evil act. Following his death, the gods of good and evil went to war over his soul. Seeing the death and despair that was caused by his existence, Bayle simply willed himself away from the gods, that he might cause no further pain. Special Requirement: Knowledge (Religion) 25 ranks, Knowledge (the Planes) 28 ranks, must have donated at least 10,000 gold pieces to the poor within the last month. Additionally, when Bayle is called forth the summoner must beat himself with a scourge about the back, inflicting at least 50 points of damage and using the blood to trace Bayle’s seal. Manifestation: Bayle appears as a ragged and disheveled figure, wracked in pain and bleeding from hundreds of wounds. He wears a hair shirt and his features are distorted from an eternity of damaging wounds to his face. When he speaks it is a gurgling voice which utters forth and blood pours forth from his mouth as he speaks. Sign: You become covered in fresh, oozing wounds which constantly ache and itch. Additionally your shirt or armor on your upper torso must be removed to make room for the Hair Shirt of Bayle, which also itches constantly. If the shirt is somehow removed, it disappears and instantly reappears on you. The result is the same if it is somehow destroyed. Influence: Bayle commands that you may not wear armor. Additionally, he forces you to take up the burdens of others. He commands that all others be healed before him, that everyone else eat before him and that everyone take what they want or need before him. Granted Abilities: Bayle gives you access to his vast powers of healing, his ability to ease the burdens of other and to smite those that would harm the meek. Heal: As an immediate action on any target within line of sight. Once this power is used it may not be used again for 5 rounds. Shield Ally: Bayle protects one of your allies, transferring all damage from that ally to you. That ally also gains any natural armor bonus that you have, which you lose while the ally is protected. You may only protect one ally at a time. Hair Shirt of Bayle: Bayle grants you use of his hair shirt, which itches constantly and reminds you of your humility. It provides you with a +20 natural armor bonus which stacks with any natural armor you already have. The itching is unbearable however and requires you to make a Concentration check every minute or stop what you are doing and take a full round action to scratch yourself. Scratching yourself inflicts 1 point of damage and resets the Concentration check. The DC to prevent scratching starts at DC 20 and increases every minute by 1. Fist of Bayle: Bayle allows you to return the pain that others inflict upon you and your allies. Keep track of all damage that is transferred to you through your Shield Ally power which was caused by a weapon, spell or other damage dealing method that was used with the intention of causing harm to your ally. You may make a melee touch attack against a single opponent that is actively attacking you or your allies. If you hit, that opponent takes an amount of damage equal to the running total you have been keeping. Additionally if the opponent takes at least 100 points of damage it must make a Will save or immediately change its alignment to lawful good, drop its weapons and renounce violence, forever. This is a mind-affecting ability and can only be reversed by a Wish, Miracle or Atonement cast by an Evil priest with a Caster Level higher than your Effective Binder Level. Bayle Level Epic Bind DC 50 A powerful wizard, long since gone mad. He claims to have invented the magic missile spell, if you can understand his ravings…. Legend: An incredibly powerful wizard, Zyxius was obsessed with the Magic Missile spell; some scholars even credit him with its creation. As he grew more powerful, his obsession with Magic Missile and Force magic in general drove him to madness until eventually he sought to merge himself with force-type energy entirely. He was unsuccessful and cast into the void. Still he gibbers on, ranting about how he invented this spell or another. Special Requirement: Zyxius requires that you prostrate yourself before him, declaring him the greatest mage who has ever lived. You must also show him that you are no weak-willed fool. Thus you must have at least Intimidate 21 ranks and Diplomacy 24 ranks. Additionally, you need to have either spent one year studying in an arcane library of at least 500,000GP in value or possess Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks or Spellcraft 24 ranks. Manifestation: Zyxius appears as a vaguely handsome humanoid; however he is distinctly translucent and appears at times surrounded by various force-type spells. Sometimes his skin shimmers and takes on aspects of a Force Dragon. He whispers and mutters to himself constantly, sometimes revealing unknown arcane secrets indecipherable to all but the most knowledgeable in the Arcane Sciences or to the mad. Sign: While bound to Zyxius your skin takes on a translucent appearance and you gain some vaguely draconic appearances. You also radiate Magic. Anyone using a detect magic or similar spell in your vicinity will detect you as being a spell. You are considered an Abjuration spell with the Force descriptor, with an effective caster level equal to your Binder level. You also count as an abjuration spell for the purposes of interactions between abjuration spells. Note that you simply are detected as such. You are not actually a spell and cannot be dispelled. The effect is of course suppressed in an antimagic field, as is standard with all normal vestige rules. Influence: Zyxius cannot stand pretenders to what he perceives as his throne. If an arcane magic user is an enemy in a battle you are in, you must attack that caster first above all else. If ANY spell caster uses the magic missile spell you must immediately challenge them to duel. If it is a friend than it can be a non-lethal duel, however Zyxius urges you on that they must admit that Zyxius is the greatest mage who ever lived. Granted Abilities: Zyxius grants you his immense spell casting powers as well as some of the near divinity that killed him. Armor and Shield of Zyxius: As long as Zyxius is bound to you gain +10 Armor, +10 Natural Armor and +10 Deflection. You are considered to be effectively under a Mage Armor and Shield spell for the purposes of magical effects that have special interactions with these spells (like Magic Missile). They are also considered Force effects for any effects that have special interactions with them. Zyxius’ Multiple Missiles: As a standard action, you can launch 10 magic missiles from your fingertips. This ability functions identically to the magic missile spell except that it is a supernatural effect and that there are 10 missiles. Magical Celerity: As a swift action, you may imbue yourself with hastened magical prowess. You may cast an extra spell, use a spell-like or supernatural ability on this round. The spell or ability must have a usage of 1 round or less and remember that since this is itself a swift action, you cannot use another swift action the same round. So for example, you could use Magical Celerity, then use Zyxius’ Multiple Missiles, move, and then use Zyxius’ Multiple Missiles again. After using this ability you may not use it again for 5 rounds. Knowledge of Zyxius: As long as you are bound to Zyxius, you are considered to have ranks in Spellcraft equal to you binder level for the purposes of identifying Force effect spells. Additionally you gain a +30 bonus on the check. This use of spellcraft is only for identifying spells and effects with the Force subschool. Zyxius Level Epic Bind DC 35
jameswilliamogle 02-02-07, 10:18 AM	I think the number of vestiges you can bind shouldn't progress at the same rate: I think it should be lower (maybe 1 more per 7 or 10 levels) or no advancement after 20th. I'll edit this post to make more comments after reading the rest of the SBLOCKs. Vestige advancement: Tenebrous should advance the cold damage (energy damage in Epic is weak, anyways). Agares's Elemental Companion shouldn't advance so fast: maybe once every 5 levels after 20th. You probably shouldn't include Chupoclops's Poison bite until WotC erratas the ToM to include some poison, for widespread acceptance. Non-Epic feats: Quicken Su ability should require more HD than Maximize. There's no precedent for being able to take these multiple times for more uses per day: perhaps that should be an epic feat? Epic feats: Intensify Su seems to be based off of Intensify spell: you should make the HD requirement 27 instead, to mirror it. Legendary Bargainer seems ok; you might want to let it stack with itself (instead of +10, +5, maybe). Epic Vestige mirrors Epic spellcasting, which is cool. Superior Vestige Focus seem cool, but you might want to let it stack with itself (a Binder sacrifices a lot by going the focused route; this would help them out, and not raise the DC's too far to be ridiculous). Epic Vestiges: Fist of Bayle is way too powerful. Dahlver-Nar + Bayle = opponent takes 75% of the damage they do, plus you can heal your allies and yourself (also, UMD + a wand of Shield Other makes it protect everyone in the party). Lawful Good alignment change is too powerful, too. The Heal effect could be a swift action, but immediate is too good. This is beyond what Epic would allow, normally, I think. If you made it such that they needed a DC 50 just to bind Bayle, I think it would be more balanced. Zyxias seems very balanced and well thought out, though. I LOVE the Binder, and I'm glad you took the initiative to do this; I hope WotC publishes some Epic progression on their main site.
Light_Colonel 02-02-07, 04:45 PM	Thank you very much for your feedback! I think the number of vestiges you can bind shouldn't progress at the same rate: I think it should be lower (maybe 1 more per 7 or 10 levels) or no advancement after 20th. I'll edit this post to make more comments after reading the rest of the SBLOCKs. The reason I put additional vestiges at 1 per 5, was that it was less than what the mathmatical progression would be and it seems like a binder would need those extra vestiges. While the vestiges are powerful, I think in Epic their power would quickly disappear without extra vestiges to back it up. I think I will try to do some playtesting to see what the results are. Tenebrous should advance the cold damage (energy damage in Epic is weak, anyways). I was already figuring the damage as advancing. Since none of the vestiges with advancing damage give any upper limit, I had just assumed it would continue to advance every 7 levels as standard. I will edit the OP to reflect this though, just to make it clear. Agares's Elemental Companion shouldn't advance so fast: maybe once every 5 levels after 20th. This is somethig that will definately need to be playtested. I don't really see the Companion as being all that strong. Though in looking at the CR compared to the effective level, it might be too powerful. I guess I have just never feared Elementals as either a player or DM. You probably shouldn't include Chupoclops's Poison bite until WotC erratas the ToM to include some poison, for widespread acceptance. I included it because no one else seems to have noticed. The errata includes no mention of it and I haven't seen any discussion of it on the boards. (In all fairness though, I haven't looked all that hard). It "feels" right, since the fact that his bite is poisonous is referred to in multiple points in the entry. The poison scales fast, but barely keeps pace with how quickly everything becomes immune to poison. Quicken Su ability should require more HD than Maximize. There's no precedent for being able to take these multiple times for more uses per day: perhaps that should be an epic feat? The precedent is in the entire line of Supernatural Ability feats. All of them can be taken multiple times for extra uses per day. I set quicken at a lower HD because it is a lot less useful than maximize. I won't dispute that it is powerful, however you would need to take the feat multiple times in order to get real abuse out of it, and given the overall lack of feats a binder has to use on all the things he is going to want... Maximize on the other hand is significantly more powerful, an example being, say... Amon's Fire Breath; maximized. Intensify Su seems to be based off of Intensify spell: you should make the HD requirement 27 instead, to mirror it. Yeah, I meant to mirror it as closely as possible. However I wanted to follow the precedent set by all other Supernatural Ability Augmentation Feats (I will just call them Meta-Natural Feats for now), which is set at a 1/Day usage, more feats for more use. Intensify Spell is more powerful since you can use it essentially any number of times per day. Intensify Supernatural is only used once though, which I felt merited it being available sooner. It also fits in the way that Binders are slightly more powerful than other casters in their own limited way. Legendary Bargainer seems ok; you might want to let it stack with itself (instead of +10, +5, maybe). I suppose it could. Some people might gripe about the Diplomacy bonus to NPC haggle checks, but dagnabit, it just fits to me! Honestly if you can successfully talk a near divine being into hooking you up with sweet powers, I seriously doubt talking Steve the Merchant into shaving 10gp off the price of a suit of armor is gonna be that tough. Epic Vestige mirrors Epic spellcasting, which is cool. Thanks. It seems the only logical way it could work. As I said at the outset, I couldn't really vouch for the Epic Vestiges, but the basic principle seems sound. Superior Vestige Focus seem cool, but you might want to let it stack with itself (a Binder sacrifices a lot by going the focused route; this would help them out, and not raise the DC's too far to be ridiculous). I don't know. It seems like it would violate the core principle of virtually every class including the binder. The bonuses from focusing are never as good as the effort you put into getting it. I won't so much defend Bayle as I will explain the general thinking I had in it's creation. The immediate Heal, while powerful has two major limits. First it is only usable every five rounds, second since Bayle has influence over you, others have to be healed before you, or at least that was how I intended to write his influence. And yeah the Shield Ally/Fist thing does have a massive potential for abuse, but it also seems like it would be easy enough for a DM to overload. In closing, I have a soft spot for Binders and while it is possible that what I have presented is a little broken, it is easily remedied by a DM using anti-magic fields.
jameswilliamogle 02-02-07, 08:55 PM	Good enough; you should playtest everything as is and post back!
Light_Colonel 02-07-07, 07:11 PM	Requesting some assistance on coming up with equipment layouts and things like that to properly test this thing. I am teh suck at optimizing for Epic levels.
JiCi 02-08-07, 12:55 PM	Woaw, nice stuff you got there. Agares should grant the ability to summon an elemental monolith, right before a primal one. And what's the use of binding an Epic Vestige if it's always influencing you ? The binding check is high enough for you to fail already. You should treat them as normal vestiges, or even make a feat that allows you to treat these as normal per thew rules.
Nephelim 02-11-07, 09:08 PM	I just had a thought with regard to Epic Vestiges... what if the Epic vestiges ARE the seeds that Epic magic uses? Binding the Seeds would have a DC each based on the Spellcraft DC base of teh Seed, and would have a sign and influence appropriat to the Seed's theme. Each seed could provide one single power, determined when you bind them, that is essentially a single-seed Epic spell, with a DC based perhaps off of a Diplomacy check? The real power would start rolling in as you start binding multiple Epic vestiges. You could combine them into a sort of dynamic Epic magic... mixing and matching on the fly. I'm not sure how to deal with Factors and Mitigating factors... perhaps when the Binder creates thier Seal for the seed - and perhaps each binder has to create their OWN seal - they define what factors and mitigating factors they want to be able to\must apply to the seed, and those would apply as they combine seeds as well. Perhaps it would allow you to apply Epic modification on top of non-epic vestiges... like having the Afflict seed bound would allow you to add a damage multiplier to any other damage-dealing vestiges you have, or having the Ward seed bound would allow you to Ward off any effect or damage type that anotehr Vestige uses, or something like that... Here's how I'm coming to this: Vestige magic is NOT as costly or as labor-intensive as other forms of magic. Suddenly having XP and GP costs for epic vestiges seems ... sudden? Heavy-handed even. Epic vestiges should have thecapacity to be as planet-shattering as Epic spells or Psionics, and yet lagging behind somewhat, just as they did for the previous 20 levels. Epic vestiges should not follow a "# of times a day" slot-limit the way other Epic magic does, but I could see Epic Vestiges being limited in that you can only know so many Seeds - based perhaps on your binder level nd\or Charisma bonus. Perhaps there is a "you must be this all to summon this Vestigial Seed" limit based onm Diplomacy, CHA, and EBL in some way... Other epic casters can use andy and all seeds that they wnat to, and it is only the final spellcraft DC that matters. I was also thinking that Binders attach themselves to some seriously alien things, Vestiges are meant to be more and more incomprehensible and frightening as they get more and more powerful... what could be more removed, abstract, and incomprehensible than the very seeds on which magic rests? How do negotiate with "Afflict"? Its a concept, not a thinking entity at all! It would be like asking "blueish green" what it wants for lunch. But that's what Epic is... doing the impossible. Of course, the mecahnic of this might be a bit ... byzantine. So... thoughts?
Nephelim 02-13-07, 08:43 AM	Alternatively, you could just use the Legendary Spells (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11464223&postcount=11)mechanic to construct the granted abilities of Epic Level vestiges, giving them "10th" level powers and so on, scaling up towards infinity... It might be easier, however, to allow Epic binders to simply add powers to existent Vestiges that are epic, or for non-epic vestigies to scale upwards past 20 (many of them already do). Though I would love to see epic vestiges that do things like apply (temporary) templates as 1/5 rechange abilities... Binders, I think, are perfect for answering the "I think that there should be a spell that does ___________ " question. They should be able to do things that other arcane and divine casters simply can't. Being able to take a Paragon template for a little while, for example, would be cool (and certainly epic)
endofdreams 03-12-07, 05:44 PM	Since by epic level poison immunity is available to practically anybody, I would focus more on improving Chupoclop's aura and do the same for Focalor. I'd like to see more epic level vestiges.