Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 11:16 AM	***I posted this in the Faerun forum as well...but am reposting this here since I figured more people read this section*** I don't have the book anymore, but was wondering about an epic spell from the book (both for possible in gaming, and just for curiosity in general). SPOILERS IN PLOT BELOW Near the END of the novel, the Simbul is battling various Outcast/Former Archdevils (Nergal being the one who is holding Elminster Hostage for use against Asmodeus). Anyways, she calls out to Asmodeus at one point stating shed make a deal with him: to ensure she could get Elminster back untainted and unharmed. In return, she would destroy a dozen or so devils of his choice (it seems she hears his laughter across the plane as other entities flee from fear of him...but I don't recall him ACTUALLY saying anything). Skip forward, she's single-handedly ripped through several powerful devils and finally reaches Nergal, but it seems that Asmodeus is about to kill both her and Elminster. On the side, the novel covers that Mystra is giving some kind of epic spell to Halaster and tells him when to cast it. It seems the epic spell somehow stuns Asmodeus and allows her to pull Elminster and The Simbul to safety...and that Asmodeus would seem to not remember anything of this event. ***END of Spoiler*** What do you think this spell would be written as in terms of the Epic Spell Rules (regardless of it being allowed or not)...what would you say its function specifically was (since I CAN'T remember what happened actually...I may be incorrect in the summary above)... And why did Mystra have Halaster learn the spell and cast it...because: a) Why would she teach such a potent spell to an insane Evil Alignment caster like him and b) not cast it herself ***I'm going to repost this in the Epic Forums Section in the Generic D&D Forums*** Thanks!!
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 11:23 AM	I found something that answered a small part of my question: Triton Has everyone forgotten Halaster. He has successfully charged into Hell. Staved off Khelben and the other Chosen of Mystra. Never been defeated by the Host Tower, Red Wizards, or the Cult of the Dragon in repeated attempts. Not to mention that he controls, runs, and maintains the truest dungeon in the known universe. And for those who have been messen' with him. Mystra cured his insanity on page 204 Elminster in Hell . As for heroes don't downplay Drizzt. He has defeated many very powerful evil beings. He may lose in a head to head battle with a powerful mage, but is much to cunning to stand out in the open. But even given this. I still would must fear El. Multi-classed, cunning as hell, and he has Mystra and the Simbul for girlfriends. The dude must not only be super powerful, but hung like a horse.:D
Jaerom Darkwind 03-12-07, 12:32 PM	Some kind of epic enchantment, with a huge factor to overcome divine immunities and another to push the DC past where he could possibly save.
bluemage55 03-12-07, 12:36 PM	The actual effect itself need not be anything more than a daze spell, but bypassing Asmodeus's immunities, SR, and saves . . . now there's some serious factors.
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 12:48 PM	O ok. But uh...why didn't she just cast it herself? I'd figure her stats would be much higher than that of Halaster.....and even if she did cure his insanity...I would assume she wouldn't want anyone to know such a spell, yet she gave it to a potent caster like Halaster.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-12-07, 01:08 PM	Because she didn't want to risk a direct confrontation with the King of Hell. One of the minor plot elements of the story is that Mystra matures a bit as a deity. The largely unwritten "god-rules" allow the use of intermediaries fairly indisriminately, but frown upon direct confrontations like Mystra showing up in Nessus personally.
Chanmanm8 03-12-07, 01:14 PM	Because she didn't want to risk a direct confrontation with the King of Hell. One of the minor plot elements of the story is that Mystra matures a bit as a deity. The largely unwritten "god-rules" allow the use of intermediaries fairly indisriminately, but frown upon direct confrontations like Mystra showing up in Nessus personally. O ok I figured she couldnt get involved with such things on the Material Plane directly...whereas any other plane she could (since all the gods reside on these planes)...and that I assumed Asmodeus was not deifically powerful in the generic setting (as opposed to the DiceFreaks "Gates of Hell" material that stats archdevils with god like power in their planes).
bluemage55 03-12-07, 01:39 PM	Asmodeus would still be deifically powerful, although not necessarily as powerful as he appears in The Gates of Hell. For him to have driven out several pantheons (which he did in WotC D&D), he must possess tremendous power, at least within the Nine Hells. The BoVD Asmodeus would get wiped out by any deity without much effort, so it would be best to treat those stats as avatar or aspect stats instead.
Aluroon 03-12-07, 01:59 PM	Asmodeus would still be deifically powerful, although not necessarily as powerful as he appears in The Gates of Hell. For him to have driven out several pantheons (which he did in WotC D&D), he must possess tremendous power, at least within the Nine Hells. The BoVD Asmodeus would get wiped out by any deity without much effort, so it would be best to treat those stats as avatar or aspect stats instead. 1. I seem to remember several Ed quotes that infered her thought Asmodeus was at or near god level of power (or even above, on par with TGoH). 2. Kain did an interesting mock battle with Asmodeus (BOVD) vs. some kobold deity. Was pretty amusing.
Starmage21 03-12-07, 02:02 PM	***I posted this in the Faerun forum as well...but am reposting this here since I figured more people read this section*** I don't have the book anymore, but was wondering about an epic spell from the book (both for possible in gaming, and just for curiosity in general). SPOILERS IN PLOT BELOW Near the END of the novel, the Simbul is battling various Outcast/Former Archdevils (Nergal being the one who is holding Elminster Hostage for use against Asmodeus). Anyways, she calls out to Asmodeus at one point stating shed make a deal with him: to ensure she could get Elminster back untainted and unharmed. In return, she would destroy a dozen or so devils of his choice (it seems she hears his laughter across the plane as other entities flee from fear of him...but I don't recall him ACTUALLY saying anything). Skip forward, she's single-handedly ripped through several powerful devils and finally reaches Nergal, but it seems that Asmodeus is about to kill both her and Elminster. On the side, the novel covers that Mystra is giving some kind of epic spell to Halaster and tells him when to cast it. It seems the epic spell somehow stuns Asmodeus and allows her to pull Elminster and The Simbul to safety...and that Asmodeus would seem to not remember anything of this event. ***END of Spoiler*** What do you think this spell would be written as in terms of the Epic Spell Rules (regardless of it being allowed or not)...what would you say its function specifically was (since I CAN'T remember what happened actually...I may be incorrect in the summary above)... And why did Mystra have Halaster learn the spell and cast it...because: a) Why would she teach such a potent spell to an insane Evil Alignment caster like him and b) not cast it herself ***I'm going to repost this in the Epic Forums Section in the Generic D&D Forums*** Thanks!! In contrast to everyone else here(most of whom tend to refer to dicefreaks versions, or their own versions who present azmodeus as a divine being), Azmodeus may posess broad power over the Nine Hells as it's absolute ruler, but according to regular D&D canon he is no diety(though he may have some classicly deific powers, such as the ability to grant spells to his followers). His statistics can be found in the Book of Vile Darkness(BoVD), and I believe his aspect is in the Fiendish Codex II. That said, Halaster as an epic wizard in an extreme more than Elminister, should have no problem casting a spell over Azmodeus should he ever meet the being face to face(in a regard that works enough to cast that spell). With the aid of an author, thats exactly what he did. I DO agree with Jaerom about not getting directly involved. Dieties in general just dont war with planar lords except on the most subtle levels(IE retrieving an important follower). IMO, dieties may hold broad power over the prime worlds, the planar lords hold different broad power over their respective planes, and usually equally large amounts of power over very powerful beings underneath them(nessus IS rumored to be packed to the gills with a special kind of pit fiend after all).
Gemstone 03-12-07, 02:22 PM	I still don't really get why so many people wants to make Asmodeus on pair with a greater deity. He doesn't need personal power, he got almost every devil in existance on his side, following his orders. That in itself, is enough to drive out almost any god from hell
bluemage55 03-12-07, 02:34 PM	I still don't really get why so many people wants to make Asmodeus on pair with a greater deity. He doesn't need personal power, he got almost every devil in existance on his side, following his orders. That in itself, is enough to drive out almost any god from hell Not really. According to BoVD, Asmodeus and the other archfiends lack divine rank altogether. Many SDAs would allow deities to completely wipe the floor with them without even lifting a finger.
Taelohn 03-12-07, 02:59 PM	In contrast to everyone else here(most of whom tend to refer to dicefreaks versions, or their own versions who present azmodeus as a divine being), Azmodeus may posess broad power over the Nine Hells as it's absolute ruler, but according to regular D&D canon he is no diety(though he may have some classicly deific powers, such as the ability to grant spells to his followers). His statistics can be found in the Book of Vile Darkness(BoVD), and I believe his aspect is in the Fiendish Codex II. The Book of Vile Darkness stats are outdated and no longer official, as of the release of Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, and the stats in Tyrants of the Nine Hells are for an aspect. As aspects are always drastically weaker than their parent creatures, and Asmodeus' aspect is a CR 27 creature, we know that the current WotC canon Asmodeus must be several times stronger (probably double or triple that CR). That said, Halaster as an epic wizard in an extreme more than Elminister, should have no problem casting a spell over Azmodeus should he ever meet the being face to face(in a regard that works enough to cast that spell). With the aid of an author, thats exactly what he did. Actually, the author of that novel didn't seem very concerned with what the "official" stats for most of the characters presented were. Nor should he have been - as the original creator of most of those characters (including Elminster, the Simbul, Halaster, and Mystra), and one of the foremost authorities on the D&D Hell (having fleshed most of it out in the early 80s), his take on them should take precedence. If the stats don't match the characters, then the guys that converted the stats did a poor job, not the other way around. To claim otherwise would be tantamount to writing up a Middle-Earth RPG, making stats for Gandalf, then complaining that Tolkien didn't adhere to those stats properly in his novels. That said, Mystra exhibited far more power than her Faiths & Pantheons writeup would allow (swiftly slaying devils numbering in the thousands). The Simbul was likewise more powerful than her Epic Level Handbook writeup would indicate (ripping mountains from the ground and dropping them on her enemies, amongst other things). Asmodeus was clearly presented as a deific figure, displaying the ability to hear his name (and respond) when a mortal speaks it, the ability to control Avernus as a divine realm, and the ability to slay level 30+ characters at will - all while seated on his throne in Nessus, eight layers below. The fact that an epic spell, cast by a deity of magic and using an epic caster's insanity as a component, amounted to little more than a daze spell against the King of Hell also hints at his strength. Mystra likely would've been destroyed if she'd attempted a direct battle with Asmodeus in the heart of his realm.
Starmage21 03-12-07, 03:24 PM	The Book of Vile Darkness stats are outdated and no longer official, as of the release of Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, and the stats in Tyrants of the Nine Hells are for an aspect. As aspects are always drastically weaker than their parent creatures, and Asmodeus' aspect is a CR 27 creature, we know that the current WotC canon Asmodeus must be several times stronger (probably double or triple that CR). The FCII does not specifically say "these are the stats for azmodeus" thus the stats in the BoVD are still what you should use if you want to portray Azmodeus "in the flesh" and stick to whats printed in WotC's line. The FCII statistics are for an aspect/avatar only. Also, Azmodeus' CR in the BoVD is above 30(cant remember the exact figure atm, I think he's CR32), that kind of CR jump is a major increase of power even if the difference of 6 or 7 CR doesnt seem like all that much. Azmodeus is a powerful being. He can smash any number of level 20 PCs without breaking a sweat, thats not accounting for his ruby rod. Failing that, his political power and absolute control over his plane means he's pretty much unbeatable by anyone, even a diety. That said, as a being who rules an entire plane of existance, I imagine he has little to fear of death. He knows how it works, he knows where he is going, and his rule over who gets promoted among the Baatezu/devils means that he probobly can't be killed permanently without some cosmic effort to whipe his being from existance entirely. I've been tempted to use this against some of my players in epic games whove had such lofty goals as killing some planar lords. Allow them to kill him, only to have him reincarnated some time later(a minute, a day, a week, a year, 999 years, etc.. whatever I feel like), comeplete and whole and just as in-control over his plane. I hope the OP can glean the answers he wants from this discussion.
Taelohn 03-12-07, 04:04 PM	The Book of Vile Darkness Asmodeus (35 HD, CR 32) and the Tyrants of the Nine Hells Asmodeus (32 HD, CR 27) are almost the same, statwise. The former has 75 more HP, his attack is higher by 4 points, his AC is lower by 1 point, and each of his saving throws and ability scores are 2 points higher. They have the same caster level and largely the same special abilities. There's no way two creatures that closely matched deserve a 5-point difference in challenge rating - if anything, the Book of Vile Darkness version is overrated (as many 3E fiends were). There's also no way an aspect would retain over 90% of its parent creature's power (it's generally more like 30%, if that).
Starmage21 03-12-07, 04:20 PM	The Book of Vile Darkness Asmodeus (35 HD, CR 32) and the Tyrants of the Nine Hells Asmodeus (32 HD, CR 27) are almost the same, statwise. The former has 75 more HP, his attack is higher by 4 points, his AC is lower by 1 point, and each of his saving throws and ability scores are 2 points higher. They have the same caster level and largely the same special abilities. There's no way two creatures that closely matched deserve a 5-point difference in challenge rating - if anything, the Book of Vile Darkness version is overrated (as many 3E fiends were). There's also no way an aspect would retain over 90% of its parent creature's power (it's generally more like 30%, if that). The ruby rod of Azmodeus alone is worth that kind of jump in CR.
Taelohn 03-12-07, 04:36 PM	They're both using the Ruby Rod, though (and it has the same stats in both books).
Jaerom Darkwind 03-12-07, 06:46 PM	Tealohn is correct. Ed Greenwood gives his archfiends a lot more credit than the chew-toys presented in BoVD and FC. There is no way to argue otherwise without ignoring all of the relevant evidence. Greenwood's Asmodeus is clearly 'god-like', though his exact divine status is unclear. As far as Mystra and the Simbul go, my revised Mystra stats are capable of everything she did in the novel (killing millions of evils, etc.). The Simbul's stats are woefully inadequate for representing anything she's ever done in any novel; both Phaedros and I have tried our hands at revising her stats to make her appropriately powerful (I made her a 37 HD sorcerous caster, though I forget her exact level breakdown). If you then stack the [DF] proxy template on top of her normal Chosen template, I can see her doing the stuff she did. I think Mystra could have given Ed's Asmodeus a run for his money, but in the end she would have been defeated in a direct confrontation. You don't try to start something with a being of even a somewhat lower power level in his own house and walk away clean. Asmodeus is likely every bit her equal in power, so even though he'd probably break a sweat while doing it, the battle would end with Mystra-paste smeared all over some mountain.
WinDReiN 03-12-07, 07:20 PM	Personaly, I hate mystra. I would rather like a world with magic as some sort of essence with inteligence & stuff, rather than a mortal raised to divine ranks.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-12-07, 07:42 PM	Personaly, I hate mystra. I would rather like a world with magic as some sort of essence with inteligence & stuff, rather than a mortal raised to divine ranks.And this relates to the topic at hand because...?
Duismante 03-12-07, 08:18 PM	I know it is off topic but since JD is on here I would like to know. Is there an issue with DF because I can't seem to get my link to work and it says i can't connect to the database. Once again I apologize for off topic post and any help would be greatly appreciated.
The_Cheeseman 03-12-07, 08:53 PM	Mystra has the SDA "Deny the Weave," so unless Asmodeus can beat her in a fistfight without any magical or spell-like assistance, he pretty much loses by default. People just don't give greater deities enough credit. They're more than just 80th-level NPC's with some spiffy SDAs. Heck, according to Deities and Demigods, Mystra knows anything Asmodeus is going to do that is in any way related to magic or spellcasting 16 weeks before he does it. Asmodeus is not a god, and if one were to read the description of his goals in FCII, it specifically says that he desperately craves goodhood. He may be the unquestioned ruler of Hell, but Mystra is a greater deity, she's on a whole other level of power.
Xamo'das 03-12-07, 09:05 PM	Mystra has the SDA "Deny the Weave," so unless Asmodeus can beat her in a fistfight without any magical or spell-like assistance, he pretty much loses by default. People just don't give greater deities enough credit. They're more than just 80th-level NPC's with some spiffy SDAs. Heck, according to Deities and Demigods, Mystra knows anything Asmodeus is going to do that is in any way related to magic or spellcasting 16 weeks before he does it. Asmodeus is not a god, and if one were to read the description of his goals in FCII, it specifically says that he desperately craves goodhood. He may be the unquestioned ruler of Hell, but Mystra is a greater deity, she's on a whole other level of power. You are wrong, on several levels. Mystra's "Deny Weave" is not going to do **** against Asmodeus, since the weave does "not" extend beyond Abeir-Toril, thus that particular SDA is irrelevant in this situation. Second, as has already been mentioned on this thread (I think), if Asmo were less powerful than a greater god, how did he expel the Orc- and Goblin pantheons (both of which contains a greater god) from Hell? Third, there's no assurance that Mystra's Portfolio sense extend to non-weave magic (essentially all magic cast beyond the Prime material world of Abeir-Toril).
Aluroon 03-12-07, 09:12 PM	I know it is off topic but since JD is on here I would like to know. Is there an issue with DF because I can't seem to get my link to work and it says i can't connect to the database. Once again I apologize for off topic post and any help would be greatly appreciated. If you had looked with your eyes you would have seen the topic on page 1 that mentions the site is having technical issues. :)
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 10:17 PM	Mystra has the SDA "Deny the Weave," so unless Asmodeus can beat her in a fistfight without any magical or spell-like assistance, he pretty much loses by default. Given the fact that the Weave exists only in Realmspace and Dweomerheart, her ability to deny access to it means nothing while she's on any other plane. She can't deny Asmo anything. She's restricted by the planar traits just as everyone else, this includes magic traits as well. Edit: answered already:P Third, there's no assurance that Mystra's Portfolio sense extend to non-weave magic (essentially all magic cast beyond the Prime material world of Abeir-Toril). It doesn't. Her portfolio sense specifically states Weave only. She can't even sense the other types of magic that are practiced on Abeir-Toril.
Starmage21 03-12-07, 11:30 PM	You are wrong, on several levels. Mystra's "Deny Weave" is not going to do **** against Asmodeus, since the weave does "not" extend beyond Abeir-Toril, thus that particular SDA is irrelevant in this situation. Second, as has already been mentioned on this thread (I think), if Asmo were less powerful than a greater god, how did he expel the Orc- and Goblin pantheons (both of which contains a greater god) from Hell? Third, there's no assurance that Mystra's Portfolio sense extend to non-weave magic (essentially all magic cast beyond the Prime material world of Abeir-Toril). He can march the entirety of the Baatezu their way, and seal off the Nine Hells of Baator from any and all regular portal travel? Lets also not forget that Azmodeus also has various archfiends whom may be as old or even older than some deities, and have that much experience. He has mortal followers too! No diety can make such a claim to that level of broad power.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-13-07, 01:03 AM	That tired old saw is getting pretty... old, Starmage. With SDAs like Mass Life and Death and Divine Splendor (!), as well as impressive DR and SR, no non-divine creature has a chance of ever challenging true deities, no matter how many pit fiends or other peons you throw at them. The numbers simply do not support such a solution as you propose. It is because of this fact that DF created the concept and mechanics of Cosmic Entities in the first place. I don't care if Asmodeus' army is truly infinite rather than just apparently so. Mystra can laugh it off with ease, for example by throwing down some epic ward that prevents all Evil outsiders from entering it and then shredding them as they shuffle around in futility. Or she can just ignore all of the pathetic pit fiends who can't even penetrate her DR or SR and just curb-stomp Asmodeus directly. Again, Teahlon's analogy is apt. Ed Greenwood basically invented D&D Hell. If his writings don't correspond to the latest revision of his material by third parties, it certainly isn't his fault. The only way his books will make sense is if you consider it in the context of his Cosmology. In that Cosmology, Asmodeus is equal or superior in power to the greater deities that he must on occasion deal with.
Gemstone 03-13-07, 01:47 AM	That tired old saw is getting pretty... old, Starmage. With SDAs like Mass Life and Death and Divine Splendor (!), as well as impressive DR and SR, no non-divine creature has a chance of ever challenging true deities, no matter how many pit fiends or other peons you throw at them. The numbers simply do not support such a solution as you propose. It is because of this fact that DF created the concept and mechanics of Cosmic Entities in the first place. Which all requires the target to be mortal. Outsiders, aren't mortals IMO in the same way that humanoids are.
bluemage55 03-13-07, 02:31 AM	Which all requires the target to be mortal. Outsiders, aren't mortals IMO in the same way that humanoids are. Any creature without a divine rank is considered to be a mortal, and is vulnerable to things such as Divine Splendor.
Gemstone 03-13-07, 07:53 AM	Any creature without a divine rank is considered to be a mortal, and is vulnerable to things such as Divine Splendor. THat's defined in the deity and demigods book I believe, but I can't find it. Care to tell me where to look? :)
Starmage21 03-13-07, 10:54 AM	That tired old saw is getting pretty... old, Starmage. With SDAs like Mass Life and Death and Divine Splendor (!), as well as impressive DR and SR, no non-divine creature has a chance of ever challenging true deities, no matter how many pit fiends or other peons you throw at them. The numbers simply do not support such a solution as you propose. It is because of this fact that DF created the concept and mechanics of Cosmic Entities in the first place. I imagine Mass Life and Death and Divine Splendor SDAs are probobly how Mystra slayed the millions of fiends that threatened to drown the rest in fiendish blood. She can slay millions upon millions as she wishes. Infinite people are dying on the primes, bringing a fraction of those infinite people to the nine hells(still infinite) to be spawned as Baatezu and other devils. To put it simply, Azmodeus has an infinite number of fiends at his command for Mystra to kill, and she could kill them for the rest of eternity and Azmodeus would continue with his business.
Aluroon 03-13-07, 12:00 PM	I imagine Mass Life and Death and Divine Splendor SDAs are probobly how Mystra slayed the millions of fiends that threatened to drown the rest in fiendish blood. She can slay millions upon millions as she wishes. Infinite people are dying on the primes, bringing a fraction of those infinite people to the nine hells(still infinite) to be spawned as Baatezu and other devils. To put it simply, Azmodeus has an infinite number of fiends at his command for Mystra to kill, and she could kill them for the rest of eternity and Azmodeus would continue with his business. You just don't get it do you? By RAW Mystra can port into Asmo's house and kill him during a surprise round, no save, no SR, no chance. No matter how many billions of pit fiends he puts between himself and Mystra by RAW they can't even hurt her, must less killer her.
Gemstone 03-13-07, 12:25 PM	You just don't get it do you? By RAW Mystra can port into Asmo's house and kill him during a surprise round, no save, no SR, no chance. No matter how many billions of pit fiends he puts between himself and Mystra by RAW they can't even hurt her, must less killer her. actually, they can. If a few thousand of pit fiends bound togheter, they can slay her. Especially if they get the drop. Altough it requires some hefty "aid another". But true, per the definition of it, she can slay Asmodeus. But that's not the fault of Asmodeus not being a deity, it's the fault of the Deities and Demigods book.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-13-07, 04:33 PM	actually, they can. If a few thousand of pit fiends bound togheter, they can slay her. Especially if they get the drop. Altough it requires some hefty "aid another". Only a character who threatens a target can use the aid another action to help another character attack it or defend against it. So only a rather small contingent of devils can harass her at a given time, and even aiding one another they will still be largely impotent (even given such a situation, she might be vulnerable to a few points of damage per round at most). But true, per the definition of it, she can slay Asmodeus. But that's not the fault of Asmodeus not being a deity, it's the fault of the Deities and Demigods book.How do you figure? Mystra is a god, not just some advanced epic character.
Chanmanm8 03-13-07, 05:38 PM	actually, they can. If a few thousand of pit fiends bound togheter, they can slay her. Especially if they get the drop. Altough it requires some hefty "aid another". But true, per the definition of it, she can slay Asmodeus. But that's not the fault of Asmodeus not being a deity, it's the fault of the Deities and Demigods book. Um...as a greater deity...doesn't Mystra know what happens with anything that concerns in the future by a number of weeks equal to her DvR? Just curious on that one...:confused: ;)
GaiusIuliusCaesar 03-13-07, 06:07 PM	First since Ed created the setting he can do what ever he wants in his novels. Anyway the problem here is if we are talking about 3.X or 2nd edition cononical universe. Since they droped the whole idea of every setting sharing the same comsomolgy(the great wheel), a planescape idea, in 3.0 for the retarded plane of shadow connecting cosmologies, Mystra dealing with asmo in a 3.x universe is many times more powerful since she is dealing with magic in toril sense, in which case she can shut off his magic, Ao the overfather may slap her for doing it, but she could. The only god she can't shut off magic for is shar because of the shadow weave. Now from a second ed and planescape point of view, she can't shut off asmo's magic. Now Mystra is a greater goddess, yeah, asmodues could deal with a minor pantheon like the orc pantheon, but how many of those guys have devine rank above 10? As a whole the Deity's and Demigods is a stupid book, gods don't need rules. PERIOD.
Witch 03-13-07, 06:11 PM	Gaius, Mystra can only deny beings the weave if they're on Toril. Asmodeus is in Hell. As in, not in Toril. Oh, and Gruumsh is a DvR 16+ god, as he's a greater deity. And allow me to disagree. Gods should use rules just like anyone else.
Gemstone 03-13-07, 06:31 PM	How do you figure? Mystra is a god, not just some advanced epic character. Well IMO, she could beat Asmodeus in a fair and square fight. But Asmodeus would never do that. He's way to smart and besides, he got hell on his side.
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 07:33 PM	Well IMO, she could beat Asmodeus in a fair and square fight. But Asmodeus would never do that. He's way to smart and besides, he got hell on his side. I appriciate this mindset. Why don't you take control of Asmodeus, and someone like Jaerom take control of Mystra, and you do everything in your power to keep Mystra from making a 'fair and square' fight with you? You could even use the devilish legions and the Lords of the Nine as you saw fit, since they would do what Asmodeus told them to. A million and nine devils, countless plots and contigeancies, and an infinite plane against one greater goddess.
Witch 03-13-07, 07:39 PM	Next he says "okay" and uses DF Asmodeus, Kain ;) If not, I foresee a second Special K event.
Karsus the Mad 03-13-07, 08:02 PM	I imagine Mass Life and Death and Divine Splendor SDAs are probobly how Mystra slayed the millions of fiends that threatened to drown the rest in fiendish blood. She has none of those.
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 08:05 PM	Next he says "okay" and uses DF Asmodeus, Kain ;) If not, I foresee a second Special K event. Not even as close. I was going for comedic value when I posted Special K vs Asmodeus. My dear cousin has a vicious understanding of magical synergies within the rules well beyond my own. I wouldn't give a WotC statted Asmodeus odds on surviving 2 rounds after initiative is rolled with JD controlling Her Magical Magnificence.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-13-07, 09:58 PM	She has none of those.Correct. In my mind, she pwned all of those devils using purely her spellfire powers--she didn't even have to resort to spells.
Kaelas Bloodstorm 03-13-07, 10:07 PM	At the current WotC writeup, Asmodeus stands no chance.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-13-07, 10:15 PM	Not even as close. I was going for comedic value when I posted Special K vs Asmodeus. My dear cousin has a vicious understanding of magical synergies within the rules well beyond my own. I wouldn't give a WotC statted Asmodeus odds on surviving 2 rounds after initiative is rolled with JD controlling Her Magical Magnificence.:schemes: Remember that I get a surprise round, since WotC Asmodeus has no innate sense of the future and will never see this coming. That standard action really should be enough. And remember that her hideous outfit is, itself, a CR 15.
Kaelas Bloodstorm 03-13-07, 10:17 PM	:schemes: Remember that I get a surprise round, since WotC Asmodeus has no innate sense of the future and will never see this coming. That standard action really should be enough. And remember that her hideous outfit is, itself, a CR 15. Bad art worth a CR 15 just for the sanity check alone. Divine Blast should clear that bugger quickly.
Gemstone 03-14-07, 02:45 AM	I appriciate this mindset. Why don't you take control of Asmodeus, and someone like Jaerom take control of Mystra, and you do everything in your power to keep Mystra from making a 'fair and square' fight with you? You could even use the devilish legions and the Lords of the Nine as you saw fit, since they would do what Asmodeus told them to. A million and nine devils, countless plots and contigeancies, and an infinite plane against one greater goddess. Well I could, if I had the intelligence of Asmodeus ;) Much like gods, he's a Deus Ex machina that I never use, as my player's haven't buggered him off this far. After what I know, he can simply seal of all access to his layer, which probably would be my first action. I would probably also give him a hefty case of "DM makes so it can't happen (Dm)" ability :) But as I said, the problem with "Instant death" lies with the "No save" abilities the gods have
Shemeska the Marauder 03-14-07, 04:26 AM	At the current WotC writeup, Asmodeus stands no chance. Well the current writeup gives him control of an infinite plane and also provides no upper bound for his stats. He only has stats provided for aspects/avatars. A single greater deity would be making a hideous, very fatal mistake by seeking to pick a fight with a planar lord of Asmodeus's status in his home plane. If Prince Levistus of Stygia can hold his own against both Sekolah and Set, and they're both multispheric gods while Mystra is worshipped on all of one single world, Asmodeus should be able to use her as an object lesson, and probably another brick in the foundations of Abiormach.
Gemstone 03-14-07, 04:51 AM	A single greater deity would be making a hideous, very fatal mistake by seeking to pick a fight with a planar lord of Asmodeus's status in his home plane. If Prince Levistus of Stygia can hold his own against both Sekolah and Set, and they're both multispheric gods while Mystra is worshipped on all of one single world, Asmodeus should be able to use her as an object lesson, and probably another brick in the foundations of Abiormach. Agreed, altough I still think that without those resources at their disposal, they wouldn't be a match for a greater god. But messing with a guy in a home where he has guns hidden all over the place that only he can use? Bad idea. I actually have a similiar rule in one of my own homebrew worlds. The Elder god of evil, Atrax, can't win through sheer force, but he can best the other elder gods in wits.
Frobojoe 03-14-07, 11:25 AM	Agreed, altough I still think that without those resources at their disposal, they wouldn't be a match for a greater god. But messing with a guy in a home where he has guns hidden all over the place that only he can use? Bad idea. I actually have a similiar rule in one of my own homebrew worlds. The Elder god of evil, Atrax, can't win through sheer force, but he can best the other elder gods in wits. Wasn't it just extensively pointed out that all those resources are useless against a deity? All the pit fiends in the world aren't going to do Asmodeus a bit of good if they're all totally ineffectual against a greater god.
Gemstone 03-14-07, 11:45 AM	Wasn't it just extensively pointed out that all those resources are useless against a deity? All the pit fiends in the world aren't going to do Asmodeus a bit of good if they're all totally ineffectual against a greater god. If you treat all Pit fiends as exactly the like, then yes, but there are other things that are greater than pit fiends, such as the lord of the nine. There are a host of other more powerful fiends and devils out there and there's nothing that says that these pit fiends can take class levels etc. True, if you just pick the stats from the books, then yes, you will have a problem because of the statting that Wizards has done with Asmodeus and the like, but doing that would be more like having a videogame than an actual roleplaying game. Also, pure combat wise they may be worthless in melee, but why not let them all fire of some spells at her? Especially "Save for Half" spells. If a million pit fiend does that and she takes 1 damage from each, that's still more than she has hp. But IMO, the problem still lies with the "No save" ability and the "static" creatures.
Kain Darkwind 03-14-07, 12:00 PM	If you treat all Pit fiends as exactly the like, then yes, but there are other things that are greater than pit fiends, such as the lord of the nine. There are a host of other more powerful fiends and devils out there and there's nothing that says that these pit fiends can take class levels etc. True, if you just pick the stats from the books, then yes, you will have a problem because of the statting that Wizards has done with Asmodeus and the like, but doing that would be more like having a videogame than an actual roleplaying game. Also, pure combat wise they may be worthless in melee, but why not let them all fire of some spells at her? Especially "Save for Half" spells. If a million pit fiend does that and she takes 1 damage from each, that's still more than she has hp. But IMO, the problem still lies with the "No save" ability and the "static" creatures. Mystra can produce a DC high enough that Asmodeus would fail regardless of her 'no save' abilities. (I don't believe she has Life and Death, nor Divine Splendor, but I could be wrong) Just her sheer amount of magic can crush the Lord of Hell. She has greater anyspell, greater teleport, planeshift, limited wish, MDJ, antimagic field (which doesn't affect her), project image and spell turning as at will SLAs. She has Alter Reality which is capable of duplicating any non-epic spell she wants. She has fire resistance 58, which means that half maximum damage from those pit fiend fireballs deals 0 to her. And this is just the F&P stats, that don't make use of any epic rules whatsoever. JD's version, which is more inline with her abilities, is truly terrifying. The problem with saying that you have pit fiends with class levels but still wanting the WotC stats to be the 'real stats' for the Lords of Hell is that there is no room. A pit fiend is CR 20, the Lords of the Nine clock in at CR 27 high. Assuming you call it unassociated, you can fit in 14 class levels before your pit fiend is just as powerful as Asmodeus himself. Which is of course the point. If you have an advanced pit fiend with a CR higher than 25, you have issues when you turn around and say that the Lord of Hell is only CR 25 himself.
Gemstone 03-14-07, 02:55 PM	Mystra can produce a DC high enough that Asmodeus would fail regardless of her 'no save' abilities. (I don't believe she has Life and Death, nor Divine Splendor, but I could be wrong) Just her sheer amount of magic can crush the Lord of Hell. That's true. That's also why I said that a god beats Asmodeus in direct combat. She has greater anyspell, greater teleport, planeshift, limited wish, MDJ, antimagic field (which doesn't affect her), project image and spell turning as at will SLAs. She has Alter Reality which is capable of duplicating any non-epic spell she wants. She has fire resistance 58, which means that half maximum damage from those pit fiend fireballs deals 0 to her. Which are all to little use when she can't enter the plane that Asmodeus is on. Also, replace "Fireball" with any other spell that she hasn't resistance against in that case ;) And this is just the F&P stats, that don't make use of any epic rules whatsoever. JD's version, which is more inline with her abilities, is truly terrifying. If we use epic rules for deities, then we should use them for the fiends too :) The problem with saying that you have pit fiends with class levels but still wanting the WotC stats to be the 'real stats' for the Lords of Hell is that there is no room. A pit fiend is CR 20, the Lords of the Nine clock in at CR 27 high. Assuming you call it unassociated, you can fit in 14 class levels before your pit fiend is just as powerful as Asmodeus himself. That's why the stats are for aspects only :) THat's the really good part with the new FC II. It specificly states that you should adjust the stats for the fiends for your campaign. Besides, I've always seen the Archfiends rule their planes with WITS and INTELLIGENCE rather than sheer power. Which is of course the point. If you have an advanced pit fiend with a CR higher than 25, you have issues when you turn around and say that the Lord of Hell is only CR 25 himself. Now this I can agree with. But we also have to keep in mind that the stats for deities are not in regard to the fiends and vice versa. They're all in regard to mortal characters. But yes, you are corret that a deity would win in a hands on, melee fight which doesn't take the intelligence of each part in concern :)
Witch 03-14-07, 03:05 PM	It specificly states that you should adjust the stats for the fiends for your campaign. Kain is talking about the printed versions (BoVD I think). And he did adjust the stats for the fiends ;)
Terraneaux 03-14-07, 04:25 PM	As the current rules stand, Mystra has some funky mojo going on with all her at will SLAs and her sdas. Can't she research spells instantaneously and stuff like that? She really has a few infinite action combos in there im sure so if she gets a standard action she can wipe the floor with pretty much anyone. That said there are so many people who'd love to take a shot at her that if Asmo got a standard action off im sure he could find a few to take her down with a few gate spells. That said in fluff Asmo should wipe the floor with her. She's like what, 60 years old or so? Asmo's seen millions of years of action as he has probably successfully contended with people vastly more powerful than Mystra. In terms of worshippers and actual 'divine' influence hes not *that* far up there, I have him at DvR 5 but im sure you guys have different opinions on that. But the thing is that being a god is sort of a hobby to him, something he does on weekends for fun. He's got the serious business of managing the LE plane and ethos, he's not about to let some piddly godling from a carebear prime like Toril inconvenience him in the slightest. As a whole the Deity's and Demigods is a stupid book, gods don't need rules. PERIOD. Try reading greek/norse mythology, for some examples. Those gods have "stats" in the same sense that DnD heroes do-they're not omnipotent, omniscient embodiments of some ideal, they are instead particular beings with personalities, likes and dislikes. And sometimes mortals kill them. Heracles for instance once outwrestled Hades, and that was Hades, not some aspect or whatever. And the gods themselves needed Heracles's help when some giants came calling, as he was a *more experienced and capable fighter of mother earth's children* than the gods were themselves.
rob_douglas 03-14-07, 05:11 PM	The Fiends do need to be reworked to your particular cosmology. FCII does say that the stats are for Aspects of the Archdevils, but unfortunately, FCI does not have that same disclaimer. What we have here is the same problem that came up in 1E many years ago. The Achfiends were presented with stats, and as a result, any 20th level 1E party could take them down. Then Deities and Demigods came out, and declared that the Archfiends, Archomentals, Slaad Lords, etc, should all be treated as Lesser Gods, and have their abilities increased accordingly. In those days, there weren't as many things to increase. Now what we have today is a result of the introduction of Spelljamemr and Planescape, which proposed that all DND worlds live together in the multiverse. And that certain beings existed across worlds, while others maybe didn't. So if Asmodeus is allowed to tell all the Greater Gods from thousands of worlds what to do in Hell, it is reasoned, he must be at least as powerful as that - or more so - at least in Hell. This is basically where Dicefreaks has gone with it. In Ed Greenwood's Hell, Asmodeus is on par with the gods. He is probably Intermediate, since that term was missing from 1E when Deities and Demigods came out. And it was well-established that the gods from different levels could effectively counter each other, and that attacking one on his home plane was virtual suicide, as the entire plane was at his command at a thought. So Ed's story makes sense in that context. What does not make sense is WotC's stats for deities, and archfiends, in light of the ELH, and therein lies the problems with both. Dicefreaks has put in the most work to rectify that problem. At some level, every DM has to at least think about that and determine how best to deal with the consistency issue. Consistency in treatment of the deific hasn't been anyone's strong suit in official DND products wince the early days. I myself want the Archfiends to be slayable. Powerful, but vulnerable. My stats will reflect that and encourage high epic parties to take them on. ROB
Jaerom Darkwind 03-14-07, 09:54 PM	A single greater deity would be making a hideous, very fatal mistake by seeking to pick a fight with a planar lord of Asmodeus's status in his home plane. If Prince Levistus of Stygia can hold his own against both Sekolah and Set, and they're both multispheric gods while Mystra is worshipped on all of one single world, Asmodeus should be able to use her as an object lesson, and probably another brick in the foundations of Abiormach.Indeed he should. Unfortunately, the fact remains that as WotC presented him, he can't--not by a long shot. WotC Asmodeus is not in any way coherent with the cosmology into which he is meant to fit. That's kind of the whole point of this part of the thread. Epic stories like El in Hell are not possible when Asmodeus is a CR 32 weakling. DF Asmodeus, on the other hand, has exactly the level of power you ascribe to him. (DF Leviathan also has the power to face off against both Sekolah and Set, something WotC Levistus likewise lacks.)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-14-07, 10:17 PM	FCII does say that the stats are for Aspects of the Archdevils, but unfortunately, FCI does not have that same disclaimer. FC was written with that intention, and that's what its authors have repeated said. The disclaimer was unfortunately removed during WotC's editing process. But given the author intent, and in light of FC:II's handling of the same topic, it's no stretch to assume that the same applies to FC:I and that its stats are only for aspects/avatars. Now what we have today is a result of the introduction of Spelljamemr and Planescape, which proposed that all DND worlds live together in the multiverse. Technically that idea predates both of them by close to a decade. The notion of a multiverse was there in the latter half of 1e, though it wasn't really developed much till 2e.
Tequila_Sunrise 03-14-07, 10:28 PM	ILMAO! This is the funniest thread ever! ...oh, gamers...
Chanmanm8 03-15-07, 12:50 PM	ILMAO! This is the funniest thread ever! ...oh, gamers... ya my questions were answered a while back...what a divergance from the original topic lol
Jaerom Darkwind 03-15-07, 01:00 PM	Surprisingly, I can't actually find a simple way to recreate daze monster as an epic spell.
Chanmanm8 03-15-07, 01:20 PM	Surprisingly, I can't actually find a simple way to recreate daze monster as an epic spell. from the same thread I put on the FR forums, it seems that Halaster was putting his insanity into asmodeus, which he recovered, but took long enough so he wouldnt see what was going on and would also forget he was trying to kill the simbul and elminster.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-15-07, 07:23 PM	There's no easy way to do that either.
The_Cheeseman 03-16-07, 09:16 PM	Deny Weave (unique salient divine ability): Mystra has the power to deny any creature, mortal or divine, the ability to access the Weave. Should she choose to do so, an affected creature cannot employ any spell or spell-like ability for as long as Mystra chooses to block his or her access to the Weave. This ability has no effect on a creature's ability to access the Shadow Weave. Portfolio Sense: Mystra senses working of the Art that draws on the Weave (that is, any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item function that does not draw on the Shadow Weave) eighteen tendays before it happens and retains the sensation for eighteen tendays after the event occurs. She is likewise aware of the creation of any new spell or magic item. "Mystra and the Weave" PGF p53 "...To speak simply, all known worlds and planes swarm with ever-present energies. Large and small, free flowing or bound by physical barriers or magical effects ... these surges and dissipations of energy give light and life and movement to everything... ... What some refer to as magic and wizards speak of as the Art is the means by which some beings can call on the ever-present energies and wield them to create effects... ... Many types of magic - rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic, even the elven high magic of old - have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies. This endless, ever-shifting web of forces is known as the Weave..." What makes you believe that Asmodeus would have any power to challenge Mystra? Obviously, the Weave is present on all planes, and unless Asmodeus can access the Shadow Weave (which he cannot, according to any stats for him in any book) he's utterly powerless, no matter where he is, even if he WAS a deity. Also, the mere possession of the SDA Alter Reality automatically means that the deity wins any grudge-match against any being that does not also have Alter Reality. In this case, Mystra can make permanent the effects of delay death, death ward, foresight, antimagic field, spell resistance, wraithstrike, blade storm, divine power, duel ward, true strike, and contigency (celerity). And that's not even considering epic spells. It doesn't matter how many hit dice you give the infinite number of pit fiends, none of them can possibly kill her, ever. All because of that one, amazingly broken SDA (which, incidentally, I chose to remove from existance in my games). Oh, and Mystra could easily kill an infinite number of pit fiends with enlarged holy word spells at her caster level of at least 64 (the maximum HD for advanced pit fiends is 54).
Karsus the Mad 03-16-07, 10:49 PM	Huh. Magic of Faerun specifically states it doesn't exist on other planes (page 10-11 under Mystra's Refusal).
Shemeska the Marauder 03-17-07, 01:12 AM	Obviously, the Weave is present on all planes, The Weave only exists on Toril and within Mystra's deific domain of Dweomerheart, but not within any other plane elsewhere in the multiverse. Mystra has no special command over magic on the planes or other worlds on the prime material.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-17-07, 03:53 AM	The Weave doesn't technically even exist in Mystra's divine realm of Dweomerheart--but since she has control over the magic in her divine realm (like all gods), it's essentially the same. The Weave proper only exists in the Crystal Sphere of Abier-Toril.
The_Cheeseman 03-17-07, 03:07 PM	That is perplexing, then. What do Weave users do when on other planes? It would seem that, if they are masters of manipulating the Weave, they would have no power where the Weave does not exist. Do Faerunian wizards have no access to spells when on alternate planes?
Shemeska the Marauder 03-17-07, 03:14 PM	That is perplexing, then. What do Weave users do when on other planes? It would seem that, if they are masters of manipulating the Weave, they would have no power where the Weave does not exist. Do Faerunian wizards have no access to spells when on alternate planes? They access magic just like anyone else on the planes, they just won't have any benefits they would gain from things that are specific to the nature of the Weave, or to Mystra's control over the Weave. Non-Torillian spellcasters who visit Toril from the planes or other worlds on the prime material are able to cast magic on Toril, they just are then subject to the local restrictions on magic due to the presence of Mystra's weave.
Karsus the Mad 03-17-07, 03:16 PM	That is perplexing, then. What do Weave users do when on other planes? It would seem that, if they are masters of manipulating the Weave, they would have no power where the Weave does not exist. Do Faerunian wizards have no access to spells when on alternate planes? The magic of the plane itself. While there's no mechanics governing it (that I'm aware of anyway), I've seen people mention that there's a transistion period in which the mage would atune himself to the magic of the planes. I have no clue how valid that it is tho'. It may simply be that the method of spellcasting is the same, simply the source is different (in Realmspace, wiggling your fingers and muttering "fiddle sticks" causes a specific magical effect to occur for those who are skilled by drawing upon the Weave, while on the planes, the same thing achieves the same effect but instead draws off of the magic of the plane itself.).
Chanmanm8 03-19-07, 08:58 PM	That is perplexing, then. What do Weave users do when on other planes? It would seem that, if they are masters of manipulating the Weave, they would have no power where the Weave does not exist. Do Faerunian wizards have no access to spells when on alternate planes? Magic essence drawn from the weave on the mortal coil (material plane), but drawn from cosmos (infinite high energy particles?) that are the planes and infinite # of demiplanes.
johnwhitmyre 03-22-07, 01:00 AM	You are wrong, on several levels. Mystra's "Deny Weave" is not going to do **** against Asmodeus, since the weave does "not" extend beyond Abeir-Toril, thus that particular SDA is irrelevant in this situation. Second, as has already been mentioned on this thread (I think), if Asmo were less powerful than a greater god, how did he expel the Orc- and Goblin pantheons (both of which contains a greater god) from Hell? Third, there's no assurance that Mystra's Portfolio sense extend to non-weave magic (essentially all magic cast beyond the Prime material world of Abeir-Toril). Maybe the stats in the BoVD and the FC are for Asmo in planes and realms outside of Hell. Maybe in Hell his powers are tripled. I have not read the FCII but maybe they need to give the Lords some class levels. Like on top of Asmo's 35HD give him Fighter12/Wizard8/Aristocrat12/Cleric10/Blackguard10. For Meph give him Fighter20/Evoker13/Archmage3/Bard12 For Levistus give him Swashbuckler20/Fighter3/Rogue7/Cleric8 this would give them all 20-60 more HD and give them more depth. just an idea and i guessed on the classes given.
johnwhitmyre 03-22-07, 01:03 AM	Grazz't could be Fighter10/Sorcerer20/Rogue18/Assassin10/Cleric5
Gemstone 03-22-07, 02:59 AM	Okay, Im getting tired of this These stats aren't real nye nue nue. First of all, yes, the book states that the stats are for aspects of the archfiends, but why is that? Well, it's actually very simple. Having watched this discussion about the archfiends power for so long, WotC went with a solution that makes everyone happy! If you don't have access to the archdevil statistics you want, you can closely approximate them simply by advancing an archdevil's aspect in the following ways: They've added guidelines for the increase of an Archdevils power, so go ahead, make them a 800 HD creature if you want, but you will still only have your version of the Archfiends. WotC published the BoV and the devils with their minds set on not-epic play and no-deity rules, so of course they will look weak compared to that! If you cap the game at 20th level, and place the gods at a CR of 28-40, they will look more powerful, since you can't advance near their HD. So if you want a stronger archdevil, adjust him. Increase his HD, slap on abilities, but pleeeeaaassse, do not blame WotC for trying to build the game from a 20th level view. [/rant]
Witch 03-22-07, 09:55 AM	So if you want a stronger archdevil, adjust him. Increase his HD, slap on abilities, but pleeeeaaassse, do not blame WotC for trying to build the game from a 20th level view. What we want is for archdevils to reflect their flavor. That isn't the case as of right now. In general, this means that the highest archdevils have about equal power as deities. And seriously, Gemstone. Those advancement guidelines are crap. They don't offer anything that'll give the abilities the archfiend's flavor is supposed to have. In short, WotC didn't go with a solution that makes everyone happy. It went with a solution that said "Here's how we see them. Oh, and for you people who like them a bit stronger, well, that's too bad. And to mock you a little bit, we've provided some guidelines that won't help at all."
Gemstone 03-22-07, 11:40 AM	What we want is for archdevils to reflect their flavor. That isn't the case as of right now. In general, this means that the highest archdevils have about equal power as deities. And seriously, Gemstone. Those advancement guidelines are crap. They don't offer anything that'll give the abilities the archfiend's flavor is supposed to have. In short, WotC didn't go with a solution that makes everyone happy. It went with a solution that said "Here's how we see them. Oh, and for you people who like them a bit stronger, well, that's too bad. And to mock you a little bit, we've provided some guidelines that won't help at all." As my response was just a rant, I do see there are errors in the rules for advancing them, but at least they gave you something :) If you want good archfiends, advance them or restate them if you feel they should be more powerful. But from a 20th level game perspective, they are extremely powerful still. Also, they did say that you can advance them as much as you want. How WotC see's them has nothing to do with how you see them
Witch 03-22-07, 11:52 AM	The problem is, as I said earlier, inconsistency. It could be forgivable for WotC if they said the Archfiends were nothing but the pawns of Gods, in their flavor. However, they don't. They have the Archfiends as the equals of Gods. And then their stats seem like utter crap. And yes - I do restat archfiends.
Gemstone 03-22-07, 12:04 PM	The problem is, as I said earlier, inconsistency. It could be forgivable for WotC if they said the Archfiends were nothing but the pawns of Gods, in their flavor. However, they don't. They have the Archfiends as the equals of Gods. And then their stats seem like utter crap. Compared to the deity rules that is. The main problem here is two things. 1) The Archfiends were first written with the idea of max 20th level players, as WotC had the idea to write every book as stand-alone, that is, no other rules than the book itself + core would be needed. Thus, no epic game OR god rules was considered in the BoVD. 2) The deity rules are doing a similiar thing. they don't take the epic rules into account etc. So what's mostly the problem here, is the fact that WotC didn't write them with gods in mind. If you do something that would fit for the norse mythos, such as limiting gods to 30th or 40th level, without any DvR or insane Salient Divine abilities, we suddenly have a much more balanced archfiends :) But if you really want to use the deity rules and have Archfiends too, you basicly need to rethink and restate the archfiends. And yes - I do restat archfiends. Yeah, didn't you post them here a while ago?
johnwhitmyre 03-22-07, 12:53 PM	gotta remember that these guys are pretty tough. remember wasnt it during the Avatar Crisis or something that Waukeen(diety from FR) purchased travel through the Abyss with Grazz't only to be captured by him? Now Waukeen may or may not have had spell casting abilities(dont know if this is when mystra took away the ability to cast magic) but with out them she is still a Lesser or Intermediate Deity, by that alone she is pretty powerful and Grazz't still was able to control here. So yeah, the books are lesser versions of the Archdukes and Princes. Like i said, add some more HD and some character levels, i would think that Grazz't who always does "favors" for female sorcerors would have to have some levels in sorcerer. All the underlings in the BoVD devils and demons possess character levels, why cant the Archdevils and Demon Princes? just an idea guys. yeah and looking at the deity books they are not statted for epic campaigns, yes they are statted for like 21-30 lvl games but not for 50+, you can tell me that a group of 4-6 60th lvl pcs cant take on a deity.
Witch 03-22-07, 12:54 PM	Yeah, didn't you post them here a while ago? I don't think I did, no. I might've posted one or two, but they'd have been newly developed rather than restatted. For already existing devils, I've had little to do, as Gates of Hell covered that.
Gemstone 03-22-07, 03:06 PM	I don't think I did, no. I might've posted one or two, but they'd have been newly developed rather than restatted. For already existing devils, I've had little to do, as Gates of Hell covered that. okay, then it was some other guys devils I saw :)
Xamo'das 03-22-07, 07:42 PM	gotta remember that these guys are pretty tough. remember wasnt it during the Avatar Crisis or something that Waukeen(diety from FR) purchased travel through the Abyss with Grazz't only to be captured by him? Now Waukeen may or may not have had spell casting abilities(dont know if this is when mystra took away the ability to cast magic) but with out them she is still a Lesser or Intermediate Deity, by that alone she is pretty powerful and Grazz't still was able to control here. So yeah, the books are lesser versions of the Archdukes and Princes. Like i said, add some more HD and some character levels, i would think that Grazz't who always does "favors" for female sorcerors would have to have some levels in sorcerer. All the underlings in the BoVD devils and demons possess character levels, why cant the Archdevils and Demon Princes? just an idea guys. yeah and looking at the deity books they are not statted for epic campaigns, yes they are statted for like 21-30 lvl games but not for 50+, you can tell me that a group of 4-6 60th lvl pcs cant take on a deity. Your Waukeen/Grazz't example is not representative of the power discrepancy between deities and archfiends, since the module For Duty and Deity explicitly states that Waukeen had surrendered her divinity to Liira *before* she were captured/tricked by Grazz't, thus she was probably a quasi-deity (DvR 0) at best. But yes, I agree that Archfiends should posses class levels ( they should have a HD total that matches or excedes the deities, even). EDIT: Fixed a few - rather vexing - grammatical errors.
rob_douglas 03-22-07, 11:55 PM	Or abilities that mimic class features. Asmodeus has Cleric 20 Spell casting, but if he was treated as a cleric of his HD.... I would make Grazz't a Warlock maybe... All should have access to some form of Epic Spellcasting. They all need the DvR 0 at a minimum. So that slaps a few new abilities on, and some immunities that help. In general though, they need true divinity at some level to match your campaign. They should all be more powerful than an infernal in an Epic Campaign. I don't think that is asking too much. But again, even deity rules are messed up, so there is some discrepancy that still needs to be meshed with the Epic rules. And you need rules for Divine Ascension, as once you start killing divine beings, you better ascend or you are toast. ROB
NoldorForce 03-23-07, 06:31 PM	Even considering that the FC1 archfiends were designed without epic rules, some were still rather silly. The worst offender here is Juiblex, with a CR of 19. Remember what balors get? CR 20, or higher than the guy they're supposed to be working for. Many of the rest have CRs in the mid-20's, but a few of them are still a bunch of WTF. Really, even if you're ignoring epic rules, the powers that be should still have a bit more power than their underlings.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-23-07, 07:45 PM	Dicefreaks concurs
Witch 03-23-07, 08:16 PM	What're you going to say next, JD? That Special K shouldn't be able to topple Asmodeus? That Pelor is Good?
Jaerom Darkwind 03-23-07, 10:34 PM	What're you going to say next, JD? That Special K shouldn't be able to topple Asmodeus?Yes. That Pelor is Good?No.
tridiak 03-24-07, 10:49 PM	A possible theory on relative power levels : when in Hell or Abyss, the plane(s) itself "supports" them, giving them power to challenge deities because they are "tuned" to the plane's nature. The planes don't "support" deities because they already have their own power source and are usually not "tuned".
Tequila_Sunrise 03-25-07, 06:10 PM	This thread is still alive? I guess there are always people ready to argue ad nauseum about the fine points of...well, nothing. It's just a game folks. Oh and it's a FANTASY game. You know, based completely on imagination and whim.
bigevill 03-29-07, 05:46 PM	I could be wrong but didnt mystra deny magic to Cyric in one of the earlier books? Might have been "Prince of Lies" If that is the case I would have to say she could do it to anybody.
tridiak 03-29-07, 08:24 PM	I could be wrong but didnt mystra deny magic to Cyric in one of the earlier books? Might have been "Prince of Lies" If that is the case I would have to say she could do it to anybody. They were in the Gods Domain (or whatever it's called) when she did it. Later in the book, Mystra & Cyric were fighting in Limbo (I think), and he was using magic there.