Post/Author/DateTime	Post
archerpwr 06-14-07, 10:04 PM	I posted this on the CO boards, but I thought I might get some help here as well. Hey all. I've been invited to wizard random's epic game and need some help. I have never actually played in an epic game before so any advice is welcome. Level: 26 The party: Some sort of cleric (missing level 9 spells) Some sort of rogue/OA samarai Swordsage 20/ Master of the nine X I swear there is one more I'm missing Books: any 3.5 My build I would like some help with: Grey elf wizard 2/Lion totem barbarian 1/ elf paragon 3/ Spellsword 1/ eldritch knight 10/ exotic weapon master 1/ Abjurant champion 2/ EK +6 Casts as a full wizard. Bab 17 +3 epic 1 Elf wizard substitution level Scribe scroll, extend spell, persist spell(forlorn flaw from dragon), combat casting(flaw) 2 Lion totem barbarian 1 3 Elf paragon 1 quicken spell 4 elf paragon 2 5 elf paragon 3 6 wizard 2 arcane strike 7 Spellsword 1 8 Abjurant champion 1 9 Exotic weapon master 1 (flurry) innate spell 10 Abjurant champion 2 11 Eldritch knight 1 improved init 12 Eldritch knight 2 Practiced Spellcaster(wizard) 15 Eldritch knight 5 minor shapeshift 18 eldritch knight 8 Eschew materials 21 Eldritch knight 11 Epic spellcasting 24 Eldritch knight 14 Expanded spell capacity, Ignore material components That is a rough build I have come up with. Any advice to improve it is welcome. Tactics/dirty tricks: 1) exotic weapon master is entered with the use of heroics to qualify (OKed by DM) 2) Inate spell + heroics means I have every fighter bonus feat I qualify for (OKed by DM) So, suggestions?
dragon221284 06-15-07, 01:31 AM	Paladin 4 Sorc 2 Abjurant champion 5 EK +9 + 6 levels in Epic 2 Handed Weapon / Human Feats: Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, anything else... Spells: Luminos Amor+Greater as an Sorcspell (BoED) for huge AC and shield AbChamp doesnt higher MageAmor AC (Conjuration...;( ) Spellpower: 7th level Spells at 20 and Casterlevel 19 (Baseattack)! At lvl 4 Pala use the Variant from Complete Champion to loose your Paladincastingpower for an extra Feat At lvl 5 (Sorc1) use the Variant from Complete Champion to loose your Familiar and gain a new one where you can sacc your Spells to gain +DeflectionAC and Saves for 1round/casterlevel
bluetooth 06-15-07, 02:00 AM	that's interesting. I'm still new to epic so I can't really comment, but I'll share my projected epic gish. Figher1/Wizard5/EldritchKnight10/Abjurantchampion4/ EpicEldritchKnight4/HighMage10/MasterArcaneArtisan10 (that last one is just because I love item creation and my DM is letting me use stuff from eberron...in this case a dedicated wright...even though I'm in FR) I'm not entirely sure what order to take things in once I start qualifying for my epic PrCs but I imagine I'll bungle my way through it. Also, I think there is tremendous potential for personal mythals, especially for a gish. I'll list some things you can do with a personal mythal, but doing all of them would be expensive (and some are better with epic magic items). Immunity to Energy (arroint all types), Immunity to spells (arroint all schools, which I believe makes you immune to spells even when they don't allow SR, though I have no idea if this works on epic spells). I'm not sure if you can add metamagic to mythals but true strike at will is nice even as an epic character since all EAB is like wizard BAB (though swift true strike at will would be much much better), Heal at maximum caster level is nice to have at will also. My character will have Wall of Stone at will, but that's not for combat, it's to allow for the construction of huge structures (in particular, structures that won't involve the destruction of his kingdoms forests). My character is not all about combat. If he was I'd make him a sorceror or a war mage instead of a wizard. There's probably plenty of other spells that would be nice for an epic gish to have at will, but they have to be spells that don't loose their effectiveness by not increasing in caster level as you go up. On the other hand, I'm not sure if a gish is a viable direction at epic. Epic spellcasters can do amazing things, and epic fighters can too, but I don't know if an epic gish is on par with them. (Though the personal mythal idea might bring them up to par with the other two, maybe) Once again: I'm a "n00b" as well, so everything I just said could be completely off.
archerpwr 06-15-07, 12:46 PM	Thank's for the replies. I got some more info from the DM over on the CO board and have a new idea to tweak it. Here is my new idea. My build I would like some help with: My build I would like some help with: Dragonborn fire elf wizard 2/Lion totem barbarian 1/ elf paragon 3/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant champion 5/ knight phantom 8/ Initiate of the seven fold veil 6 Bab 18 +3 epic CL 23 1 Elf wizard substitution level still spell, extend spell(forlorn flaw), Persist Spell(inattentive flaw) 2 wizard 2 3 Lion totem barbarian 1 silent spell 4 Elf paragon 1 5 Elf paragon 2 6 Elf paragon 3 quicken spell 7 Spellsword 1 8 Abjurant champion 1 9 Abjurant champion 2 innate spell 10 Abjurant Champion 3 11 Abjurant Champion 4 12 Abjurant Champion 5 Skill focus(spellcraft) 13 knight phantom 1 Fighter bonus feat doesn't really matter (Really hoping DM is going to let me trade this for practiced spellcaster or minor shapeshift) 14 knight phantom 2 15 knight phantom 3 Spell focus Abjuration 16 knight phantom 4 17 knight phantom 5 18 knight phantom 6 Greater Spell focus Abjuration 19 knight phantom 7 20 knight phantom 8 21 Initiate 1 epic spellcasting 22 Initiate 2 23 Initiate 3 24 Initiate 4 Improved Spell capacity 25 Initiate 5 26 Initiate 6 Here is what the DM said: It might end sometime around 38, although rather than EK there is always Phantom Knight from Five Kingdoms. You still lose a CL but you get a ton of nifty abilities, and if you check the rules for progressing PRC's after 10th level i think you still gain a few extra bonus feats. Also once you hit Epic and the BAB slows down no matter what class you play it might be a good idea to take pure casting PRC's simply because depending on what you take ( Initiate of the sevenfold veil for example) you can gain some neat class abilities that will help you survive when the monsters hit for 50+ damage a shot. Not to mention keeping you're CL up will really help against the Epic SR. Also instead of taking that 2nd level of wizard something like either Dragonslayer 1 or Spellsword 1 will not only give you that CL back but your BAB will also be one point higher, in addition to whatever abilites you gain from those classes. For the record, I really want to keep it wizard based rather than sorc based. I thought hard about a sorc based gish and decided against it with the spells known limitation. It seems that the DM is going to allow me to have and epic progression of Initiate of the seven fold veil (its only 3 levels too short). Veils are just too good to pass up.
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-15-07, 02:14 PM	I would strongly advise against losing caster levels at any point, however, you'll want to squeeze in as much BAB as you can. Maybe: Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ EK 9/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Full-casting PrC 6. Something like that. After 20th level, just keep boosting your casting.
archerpwr 06-15-07, 02:17 PM	I would strongly advise against losing caster levels at any point, however, you'll want to squeeze in as much BAB as you can. Maybe: Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ EK 9/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Full-casting PrC 6. Something like that. After 20th level, just keep boosting your casting. Spellsword needs 4 bab right? I seem to be really close to exactly that.
Holy_Beholder 06-15-07, 06:43 PM	Just remember to specify that you took the higher BAB classes first. After all a Ftr 20/Src 20 who took 20 fighter levels then 20 sorcerer levels gets 20 BAB then +10 from epic bonus for 30. The one who took 20 sorcerer levels then 20 fighter levels gets 10 BAB and another ten from epic bonus for 20. I know some DM's that would require you say the order you took levels, and this sort of wierdness can happen.
archerpwr 06-15-07, 06:45 PM	Just remember to specify that you took the higher BAB classes first. After all a Ftr 20/Src 20 who took 20 fighter levels then 20 sorcerer levels gets 20 BAB then +10 from epic bonus for 30. The one who took 20 sorcerer levels then 20 fighter levels gets 10 BAB and another ten from epic bonus for 20. I know some DM's that would require you say the order you took levels, and this sort of wierdness can happen. Gotcha. I've had some suggestions from the CO board. Here is the up to date build: Dragonborn fire elf wizard 2/Lion totem barbarian 1/ elf paragon 3/ Spellsword 1/ Swiftblade 10/ Abjurant Champion 3/ Swiftblade +6 Bab 18 +3 epic CL 20 +4 from practiced spellcaster 1 Elf wizard substitution level still spell, extend spell(forlorn flaw), Persist Spell(inattentive flaw) 2 wizard 2 3 Lion totem barbarian 1 silent spell 4 Elf paragon 1 5 Elf paragon 2 6 Elf paragon 3 quicken spell 7 Spellsword 1 8 Swiftblade 1 9 Swiftblade 2 innate spell 10 Swiftblade 3 11 Swiftblade 4 12 Swiftblade 5 Practiced Spellcaster(wizard) 13 Swiftblade 6 14 Swiftblade 7 15 Swiftblade 8 Minor Shapeshift 16 Swiftblade 9 17 Swiftblade 10 18 Abjurant Champion 1 Arcane Strike 19 Abjurant Champion 2 20 Abjurant Champion 3 21 SwiftBlade 11 epic Dodge 22 SwiftBlade 12 23 Swiftblade 13 24 Swiftblade 14 Improved Spell capacity, 25 SwiftBlade 15 26 SwiftBlade 16 Bonus feats from epic swift blade desired: epic spellcasting, improved spell capacity That is a rough build I have come up with. Any advice to improve it is welcome. Tactics/dirty tricks: 1) exotic weapon master is entered with the use of heroics to qualify (OKed by DM) 2) Inate spell + heroics means I have every fighter bonus feat I qualify for (OKed by DM) 3) location bonus feats + FC1 feat shuffle for the following feats: Practiced spellcaster(wizard), minor shapeshift, eschew materials, somatic weaponry, arcane strike, and any more non-epic feats I feel are "required". While RAW I could load up on epic feats, I am going to draw the line before that.
bluemage55 06-15-07, 11:47 PM	Several things to keep in mind: 1. Sorcerer spellcasting is much better than wizard casting for epic casters because you get spontaneous epic spells. 2. Do not give up more than 4 caster levels (the amount you can make up with Practiced Spellcaster) 3. 5 levels of Archmage for Spell Power +5 4. You need an epic bonus feat progression, so you generally should finish a 10th-level PrC before 20th, go with 20 levels of a base class, or set up to go into Agent Retriever immediately. That said, a simple but effective 21st level build would be: Ranger 1/Sorcerer 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 5 Ranger 1 gives you the Martial Weapon Proficiency you need, as well as a strong skill base, favored enemy, and Track (which will be useful until your Wilderness Lore falls behind, at which point you have spells to do the job). After 21st, keep picking up EK levels to advance your bonus feat progression and spellcasting and the same time. I also recommend you don't play with any of those "dirty tricks". If your DM allows that sort of junk , you're potentially in for much worse from opponents (1,000,000 damage Hurlers, the Hive, Pun-Pun, etc.)
kreesteeyan 06-16-07, 04:12 AM	Sorcerer spellcasting is much better than wizard casting for epic casters because you get spontaneous epic spells. I agree. Epic sorcerer is better than epic wizard.
archerpwr 06-17-07, 01:44 AM	On dirty tricks: I talked to the DM about them before posting here. The DM is flne with them. The DM actually came up with number 3. The DM actually stated he would be OK with planer shepard (I am not willing to go that far). Any restrictions are pretty much self imposed. I will be the only full caster, so I doubt that harder encounters will be happening as that only increases the death rate of everyone else. The DM just asked for no infinite loops (I didnt realize that had to be asked).
archerpwr 06-17-07, 01:48 AM	On a sorc base: I will be the only full caster and epic spells are expensive, so I will have to think hard about it. I realize the cha synergy to be had, and am going to think hard. Sorry bout the double post. My PSP window ran out.
BillTheManiac 06-17-07, 01:26 PM	On dirty tricks: I talked to the DM about them before posting here. The DM is flne with them. The DM actually came up with number 3. The DM actually stated he would be OK with planer shepard (I am not willing to go that far). Any restrictions are pretty much self imposed. I will be the only full caster, so I doubt that harder encounters will be happening as that only increases the death rate of everyone else. The DM just asked for no infinite loops (I didnt realize that had to be asked). but .... if .... Dirty Tricks ... LEGAL!? ... then .... Say goodbye to sanity. Dirty Tricks include save game so you never die, humongous damage from grafts, 10 spells a round, and ... and .... the Omniscifier! Ultimate power at 4th level! Oh, you mean dirty tricks in the general sense. That will still demolish the game.
archerpwr 06-17-07, 02:11 PM	but .... if .... Dirty Tricks ... LEGAL!? ... then .... Say goodbye to sanity. Dirty Tricks include save game so you never die, humongous damage from grafts, 10 spells a round, and ... and .... the Omniscifier! Ultimate power at 4th level! Oh, you mean dirty tricks in the general sense. That will still demolish the game. Having a bunch of fighter feats will break the game? I really dont want to break the game. The dirty tricks that are up there are the ones that dont leave a bad taste in my mouth. I was asked to stay away from any infinite loops and am only using the dirty tricks to grab things that fit the character image in my head. For instance: #3 will not be used to pick up spell penetration. It just wont be. Doesn't fit the character image in my head (sort of an elite warrior that excels with any weapon and blends magic and blade before just nuking something with magic). Combat casting on the other hand will be becuase it fits with the gish feel. Anything that boosts my spellcraft check will not be picked up becuause epic spellcasting is that powerful. Any restraints are pretty much self imposed and I won't do anything that does not fit with the character image in my head. Dirty trick number 1 is because the DM and I dont feel like a feat should be used when a spell will do. Dirty trick number 2 is becuase it really fits with my view of the character and adds a lot of options to the character. #3 is to help with the feat crunch to get everything that I really want this character to be able to do. Hope my rambling clears up the gaiming situation. Am I reaching too far?
BillTheManiac 06-17-07, 04:00 PM	Having a bunch of fighter feats will break the game? I really dont want to break the game. The dirty tricks that are up there are the ones that dont leave a bad taste in my mouth. I was asked to stay away from any infinite loops and am only using the dirty tricks to grab things that fit the character image in my head. For instance: #3 will not be used to pick up spell penetration. It just wont be. Doesn't fit the character image in my head (sort of an elite warrior that excels with any weapon and blends magic and blade before just nuking something with magic). Combat casting on the other hand will be becuase it fits with the gish feel. Anything that boosts my spellcraft check will not be picked up becuause epic spellcasting is that powerful. Any restraints are pretty much self imposed and I won't do anything that does not fit with the character image in my head. Dirty trick number 1 is because the DM and I dont feel like a feat should be used when a spell will do. Dirty trick number 2 is becuase it really fits with my view of the character and adds a lot of options to the character. #3 is to help with the feat crunch to get everything that I really want this character to be able to do. Hope my rambling clears up the gaiming situation. Am I reaching too far? Maybe. I wouldn't actually say break the game, depending on what feats you pick. Will everyone else be optimized like what you're building? Will the monsters be? Those are the real question. That number of feats just seems a little too extensible. Depends on how good you're willing to be. There's got to be something you can do with all those feats.
archerpwr 06-17-07, 05:01 PM	stuff To your questions: I don't know. I will meet with the DM and finalize the character on tuesday. I meet the group on wednsday. Dirty trick #3 will only be used to ease the feat crunch and add feats that really fit the character concept. The fighter feats thing just really fits the concept and adds a bunch of options. I really dont want to break the campaign.
BillTheManiac 06-17-07, 07:17 PM	To your questions: I don't know. I will meet with the DM and finalize the character on tuesday. I meet the group on wednsday. Dirty trick #3 will only be used to ease the feat crunch and add feats that really fit the character concept. The fighter feats thing just really fits the concept and adds a bunch of options. I really dont want to break the campaign. Then - that will be interesting. You essentially get to decide your character's power. The feats shouldn't matter too much. How much time does it take you to change your feat selection? Because you could really change it in mid-adventure. It's not too much of your power, but it will get interesting.
archerpwr 06-17-07, 07:43 PM	The DM posted that on the CO thread. The Cleric rolls a 1 and gets a 94 to hit I roll a 90 and miss the swordsage The Rogue/Warblade/Samuri hits for 100+ per strike and gets 10 attacks The Occult Slayer/Grapple Master/Saint is immune to most things Power level wise you don't have to worry to much as the party picks up the slack with mad amounts of damage and the ability to soak most things. The last two wizards they had both died a untimley death. One was a sorc and focused on enchantment spells and the other was a wizard who would craft the moon if you gave him half the chance. Neither were suited to combat and so died on the first few hundred points of damage. I should also note they all have a Death Ward effect and Freedom of Movement. They can all teleport one way or another and all have fast healing (varying from 3 to 26) and some form of damage reduction. All but one has Spell Resistence and 1 can fly natural and the other 3 can use items to fly. They also all posses the ability to shift between the planes and can keep in constant contact by either using sending or telepathic bond. Of course the occult slayer has the most annoying ability to reflect targeted spells and the rogue has taken the spell reflection varient from complete mage. I would say their biggest weakness is keeping up with monsters that are highly mobile, i forget the name of the attack but the swordsage can reduce the movment of a creature to zero. Will I be overshadowing people by being a caster in this group? Honest question. I just want to have a good time and be useful while playing. Then - that will be interesting. You essentially get to decide your character's power. The feats shouldn't matter too much. How much time does it take you to change your feat selection? Because you could really change it in mid-adventure. It's not too much of your power, but it will get interesting. The location feats (permanant feat purchases not restricted to the fighter list) will likely be fixed in number. I can easily cast the spells myself if I am want to change out a feat for a couple hundred xp. Fighter feats, I have any I wish. Let us say that I spend half an hour in the morning casting heroics. I have (assuming not haste) 300 fighter feats which I must qualify for to get. If I get another bonus epic feat from the epic swiftblade, I will have an innate haste and be able to power up more quickly. Dragonborn fire elf wizard 3/ elf paragon 3/ Swiftblade 10/ Abjurant Champion 3/exotic weapon master 1/ Swiftblade +6 Bab 17 +3 epic CL 20 +4 from practiced spellcaster 1 Elf wizard substitution level still spell, extend spell(forlorn flaw), Persist Spell(inattentive flaw) 2 wizard 2 3 Elf Paragon 1 silent spell 4 Elf paragon 2 5 Elf paragon 3 6 Wizard 3 quicken spell 7 Swiftblade 1 8 Swiftblade 2 9 Swiftblade 3 innate spell 10 Swiftblade 4 11 Swiftblade 5 12 Swiftblade 6 Practiced Spellcaster(wizard) 13 Swiftblade 7 14 Swiftblade 8 15 Swiftblade 9 Minor Shapeshift 16 Swiftblade 10 17 Abjurant Champion 1 18 Abjurant Champion 2 Arcane Strike 19 Abjurant Champion 3 20 Exotic weapon master 1 21 SwiftBlade 11 epic Dodge=> Epic spellcasting via FC1 feat shuffle 22 SwiftBlade 12 23 Swiftblade 13 24 Swiftblade 14 Improved Spell capacity, 25 SwiftBlade 15 26 SwiftBlade 16 That is the last revision up to now.
BillTheManiac 06-17-07, 08:20 PM	Can you do epic feats with this? Like the one that gives you +1 on all attacks? And is repeatable? Also, as a spellcaster you can save-or-die. If the DM's monsters are prepared to take 1000+ damage per round easily then a save-or-die will be your best route. Then just boost the DC to epic proportions. Competence item +30 or more to Spellcraft, Enhancement item +30 or more to spellcraft, high Intelligence, .... that will win you some of your daily encounters. Then win the rest with your fighter+rest of group?
archerpwr 06-17-07, 08:31 PM	Can you do epic feats with this? Like the one that gives you +1 on all attacks? And is repeatable? Also, as a spellcaster you can save-or-die. If the DM's monsters are prepared to take 1000+ damage per round easily then a save-or-die will be your best route. Then just boost the DC to epic proportions. Competence item +30 or more to Spellcraft, Enhancement item +30 or more to spellcraft, high Intelligence, .... that will win you some of your daily encounters. Then win the rest with your fighter+rest of group? I think all of that would actually be allowed. I am going to draw the line on that though; tastes a bit too much like cheddar to me. Seriously, I am being given pretty much free reign, but I draw the line before stacking up epic feats and abusing my spellcraft check. If I was going to do all that I would not bother to be a wizard (spellcraft is int based) or take epic swiftblade. I could be a good deal more abusive, but something in me is telling me not to.
bluemage55 06-18-07, 03:17 AM	So in other words, it's okay to be cheap, but not too cheap? Sounds like BS excuses for abuses to me. You seem to want to get the most powerful character possible without completely breaking the game, even though it involves loopholes in the rules that you know were unintended by the game designers. Excuse me if I'm not impressed.
archerpwr 06-18-07, 02:26 PM	Nothing is set in stone yet. It will not be too hard to eleminate tricks 1 and 3, but 2 is perfectly fine in my mind (regular old metamagic there). Once I get a chance to playtest it I will tweak it til it fits with the group. I'm new to this, so forgive me for keeping my options open. 3 was actually suggested by the DM and 1 was an "hey he could qualify perfectly fine that way at 19" I want to be effective, but I dont want to throw off game balance (if there is such a thing at 17+).
BillTheManiac 06-18-07, 03:20 PM	From now on in D&D, you can chose a number from 0 to infinity, and that is your character's power. Ideally you want it the same as the other members of your party. If everyone else is just as strong, You seem to want to get the most powerful character possible without completely breaking the game, even though it involves loopholes in the rules that you know were unintended by the game designers. is not a problem. There is no difference between unintended loopholes and good optomization (except in the case of typos), because the designers intended all sane builds to be roughly equal.
archerpwr 06-18-07, 03:38 PM	stuff Is this sarcasm directed at me? I'm starting to think I will not use 1 and 3 and just miss out on metamagic and elf paragon and exotic weapon master.
BillTheManiac 06-18-07, 03:40 PM	Is this sarcasm directed at me? I'm starting to think I will not use 1 and 3 and just miss out on metamagic and elf paragon and exotic weapon master. Nope. Bluemage55. I was defending you and quoting him. It didn't seem particularly sarcastic to me.
archerpwr 06-18-07, 04:08 PM	Nope. Bluemage55. I was defending you and quoting him. It didn't seem particularly sarcastic to me. Oh. The intarweb is not a very good medium. Still, it isnt set in stone and I will tweak it til it meshes well with the party power level tomorrow. Thanks for taking the time to help me (the CO thread is much more focused on the crunch). I appreciate the input. I just hope I dont get overwhelmed in play.
bluemage55 06-19-07, 05:01 AM	There is no difference between unintended loopholes and good optomization (except in the case of typos), because the designers intended all sane builds to be roughly equal. There is a significant difference. It is possible to make a reasonable argument that when the designers created Sarrukhs, they were not intending to allow Pun-Pun as a sane build. Likewise, it is a reasonable argument that heroics was not intended to allow every fighter bonus feat.
rob_douglas 06-19-07, 02:27 PM	I have ruled that Heroics doesn't stack with itself - it gives you 1 bonus feat. If you cast it again, it gives you a new bonus feat - not another one. For a 2nd level spell, that seemed reasonable. Can't have someone crafting Coins of Fight Mastery - slotless items that grant bonus fighter feats continuously for 24K apiece. ROB
archerpwr 06-19-07, 03:08 PM	The way I see repeated castings of heroics is this: 1) I have a somewhat limited list 2) It is dispellable and takes a while to redo so dispelling destroys the tactic 3) Woah. I dont do custom items. 4) The DM and other players are fine with it 5) I cannot stack the same feat repeatedly (toughness for example) 6) I technically have a limit (a large one), but the real limit is the number of things I can keep track of, so it will probably cap at around 30 7) Please dont hate me.
BillTheManiac 06-19-07, 05:39 PM	There is a significant difference. It is possible to make a reasonable argument that when the designers created Sarrukhs, they were not intending to allow Pun-Pun as a sane build. Likewise, it is a reasonable argument that heroics was not intended to allow every fighter bonus feat. You said difference. Difference means contrast. The designers did not intend Druids to be better tanks then Fighters. But they are. Should playing druids be illegal? Of the 9 builds to beat the 100^10 elite optomization challenge, how many used loopholes? IIRC, Pun-Pun, Squibb, Mr. Roboto, the Beast. 4. FIVE builds did it without using any loopholes.
archerpwr 06-19-07, 06:40 PM	In general, metamagic feats are not designed around epic characters. Things like innate spell + heroics can only happen at high levels (I *think it can be done by 15 with a bit of cheese). Fighter feats are simply not that awe inspiring at level 26 when epic spellcasting is in play. As a side note, I've been delayed from playing this character due to family issues. Being 17 sucks sometimes :(
bluemage55 06-20-07, 03:11 AM	The designers did not intend Druids to be better tanks then Fighters. But they are. Should playing druids be illegal? Nope. But it would be fair to revise the fighter, or to remove or revise some of the things that makes the druid the best class ever (Natural Spell, for instance). Or not, because the difference in brokenness between the druid and the fighter will never approach the brokenness of Pun-Pun and other loop-hole using builds compared to anything else. Of the 9 builds to beat the 100^10 elite optomization challenge, how many used loopholes? IIRC, Pun-Pun, Squibb, Mr. Roboto, the Beast. 4. FIVE builds did it without using any loopholes. What's your point? So certain builds used to meet a challenge with arbitrarily chosen conditions can do as well as ones using loopholes. Does that make the loophole-using builds any less overpowered?
archerpwr 06-20-07, 12:10 PM	Bluemage55, I don't frequent this board, but from what I've seen you have done some good work here (the SRD revision is a really good idea from what I can tell). That said, the dirty tricks were explicitly allowed by the DM and I am going to scale the build to match the party once my step-dad stops being an ass. The loop-holes in the build are not an issue, because I don't have a problem with them, the DM doesn't have a problem with them, and the other players don't have a problem with them. I'm not going to break the game (or trying too), so I would appreciate it if you would stop debating (I think that would be an accurate term) the methods used with BillTheManiac. If you have something that would help me like good buff spells that I might not know about or good feat chains to use, I would appreciate it if you would post them and help me. Otherwise, please stop debating.
archerpwr 07-19-07, 01:04 PM	Update: I finally got a chance to play the build last night. I found that I was underpowered on AC and Attack bonus. The CR 40 elemental duke had a touch AC of 55. I needed a 20 with wraithstrike, an epic spell that gives me 26 to strength, and my dragonborn base form (18 str). I just couldn't hit and my AC (even with an epic spell that gives 27 armor bonus) was "did I roll a 1?" to the BBEG. My 50% miss chance is what kept me from dieing (BBEG great cleaves through my greater mirror images). After a few rounds of getting tossed around the saint's artifact critted on the BBEG to trigger a greater curse (his dex had been 55). The greater curse rolled really luckey and dropped the BBEG's dex to one. After that I shifted into a 12 headed hydra (healing and offence) and pounced on the BBEG and arcane striked a level 8 slot against the AC 31 (touch, -5 dex) and managed to get around 2500 damage before mitigation. DR 15/- and 50% miss chance knocked the damage down to about 500. After that the BBEG timestops, heals (3), and comes out of timestop to greater dispel magic me (AoE effect). It knocks off my resistance (cast at the minimal caster level just for this sort of thing), but shapchange and wraithstrike are still up. I pounce the next round and nearly finish him off with another arcane strike (Everybody else had gotten some good hits in as well in between) for another silly amount of damage. After that the saint drops him with a 200 damage hit. Conclusion: Epic Spellcasting is not broken, I need to learn how to equip high level characters (I only spent like half my starting gold), and everybody else know what they were doing. Next time I'll prepare better spells and have some more contingencies. There weren't any balance issues (regardless of how my pounce did half the damage in the fight because I was a glass bullet). Over all it was fun. Everybody did thier part.
BillTheManiac 07-19-07, 06:54 PM	Update: I finally got a chance to play the build last night. I found that I was underpowered on AC and Attack bonus. <snip> bluemage55: What he said. Just because a build is loophole doesn't mean it's better then just really good builds.
archerpwr 07-19-07, 09:23 PM	bluemage55: What he said. Just because a build is loophole doesn't mean it's better then just really good builds. Yeah, I ended up "purchasing" about 12 feats due to me wanting innate spell, persist spell, and a couple other flavor feats (a kitty familiar w/ obtain familiar solely for the RP) and the fighter feats were held in check by me having to know what I had (totally neglected punishing stance, karmic strike, shock trooper, and combat brute), so it was fine.
archerpwr 07-20-07, 11:56 PM	My only notable equipment was: Soulfire armor, protection from transmutation animated shield, belt of battles, and a +1 transmuting/ +1 transmuting double hammer. I have tomes spent for +5 inherent to all stats. I also likely will get the +20 (in total abilities) axe the BBEG dropped. I have +26 to str, dex, con, and int from epic spells. I have 1.3 mil gp to spend. Any big bonuses to hit/ AC I missed that I should get? I had to equip the character in a real hurry.