Need help taking down an epic dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need help taking down an epic dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neijin
02-23-07, 08:31 PM I have strong in-game reasoning to think that the character party is going to tangle with an epic dragon very soon. I don't know the type yet. How do you take down an epic dragon? Assume that it and its lair are impervious to teleportation effects and divinations. I'm sure it will be too big for Forcecage, and will probably have a continuous Freedom of Movement effect. effect.

Character party (I made the descriptions generic since there is a good bit of third party material mixed in with WOTC)
Melee Two handed PA Beefcake Level 24
Rogue, Melee, UMD, and thrown weapons Level 24 (12d10 repeating sneak attack, although it almost certainly won't be vulnerable to SA)
Cleric 24, with heavy summoning emphasis
Druid/Wizard/Arcane Hierophant 24

Campaign setting in Forgotten Realms, fairly high magic.

Think CR28 great wyrm. Of course we'll cover the basics of using the elemental vulnerability of the dragon (if any) against it, and have protections against the particular type of breath weapon. I'll post more info as I can get my hands on it.

I don't know the specific type, so I know that tailored advice to a particular type cannot be offered. General good advice and some good spells/magic items to use against all dragons would be helpful.

Arrows of dragon slaying could be useful in large quantities, as the "anything but a 1" attrition of saves would eventually yield a failure. The spellcasters will cast Assay Resistance to help punch the SR. My character will probably cast a Quickened Faerie Fire the first round to prevent Invisibility from becoming a factor, and can cast two quickened spells a round via the Multispell feat

The cleric has a medium rod of quickening and 34 Wis, the arcane hierophant has three rods of lesser quickening. The AH is a generalist wizard and has all the PH spells, but very few spells outside the PH, with a 34 Int and 30 Wis.

The dragon is probably packing a minor artifact, so using Mage's Disjunction is going to be out of the question. During the last adventure, a group of adventurer NPCs cast Disjunction on us and managed to destroy a minor artifact of Lathander that the party was carrying. In this campaign, the deities don't have any compunctions against showing up on the Inner or Outer Planes, just the Prime Material. Lathander showed up and dispatched the Disjoining Wizard post haste. Please don't criticize the DM's call; I mention this only to point out the real danger of Disjunction in this campaign. While the player would certainly be willing to go with the slim chance, I really can't say the character would having seen the results firsthand.

There is an unspoken agreement between the DM and players not to use some magic items and spells, such as the Dust of Sneezing and Choking, or other stuff that stuns you on a successful save/offer no save for a death effect, etc.

The DM runs intelligent monsters with a fairly high degree of intelligence, is experienced, and is not afraid to use the advancement rules or templates, so I'm especially worried about this quest.

As a metagaming aside, The DM also has the Draconomicon, so Dispelling Breath and other nastiness will probably be a staple of the Dragon. Based on previous game experiences, buffs are fairly unreliable as they get dispelled quickly. The party faces a lot of monsters with Quickened Greater Dispel Magic, for instance.

The AH has a +45 Knowledge Arcana mod, so he should be able to learn any relevant lore about dragons that is needed.

There, I hope that is enough information to go on for now. I was hoping initially that something would post a link to a dragon killing thread, thus making the need for additional information moot.

Thanks for your ideas.
Novabomb
02-23-07, 09:06 PM I apologize for the jest, but it needs to be said.
Ask Elminster.
3DJutsu
02-23-07, 09:10 PM I'm not helping with this, but how in Hades is the Rogue getting d10s' on SA? I assume some Epic feat is involved?
Neijin
02-23-07, 09:29 PM 3rd party feats
runestar
02-23-07, 10:15 PM How many doses of dust of sneezing can your party afford?:P
Chaotis
02-23-07, 10:18 PM First, I need EVERY SINGLE SPECIFICATION on the dragon. How epic are we talking here? Do you know what kind of dragon, or have a color lead? And, then do basic preparations: Protection from the dragon's breath weapon, something that especially hurts the dragon, ect. Then ask us. "Epic Dragon" doesn't help much.
NoldorForce
02-23-07, 10:46 PM How many doses of dust of sneezing can your party afford?:PI second this, with the clarification that it's Dust of Sneezing and Choking.
Neijin
02-24-07, 10:06 AM Edited first post to add a lot more info.
LordBOB777
02-24-07, 01:34 PM A Maxamized Empower Shivering Touch should do the trick.

Do not count on the dragon being weak to anything. There are two feats that lets the dragon overcome the weaknes in the draconomicon, so I would count on those.

since the Dragon is Epic dont be suprised if it picks up the Multi Spell feat a few times.

Remember, anything you can do it might be able to do it better.
Roivas
02-24-07, 02:30 PM Your characters don't know they are going after a dragon? So they will be attacked from it by surprize and by a GM who can run enemies with intelligence? You die.
The dragon will kill you unless you know what type it is before you fight it. Without this you can be sure it will slay you all rather quickly. Expect it to use breath weapon adamixture too, so it can do as much damage of another type as it's current breath weapon, after it dispells you protections against it's energy type. I played this trick on my players during a one shot against a great wyrm red dragon it did 480 points of acid/fire damage, with clinging breath. My players weren't too happy.
If you learn of the dragon before fighting it, then you should prepare plenty of harms, and other nasty high damage spells with little to no saves worth mentioning. Throw up a time stop and hit it with vortex of teeth. Also toss up a few walls of stone or force to give you some cover against it's attacks. You might win if you are ready, but the dragon will still be a tough fight anyways.
Arctigear
02-24-07, 07:43 PM Reduce it's dex to 0 so it's paralyzed?
steel_x
02-24-07, 08:37 PM Well ... Epic level dragon? Looks like you need a real mage with lots of spell pens and stuff. But how ever. You could the " fight smarter not harder" way. Try lurring into a trap of some kind or something. Or pehaps make a construct army and bet its head in. Or pehaps you could quest for a sword of epic dragon hunting, or when that all that fails you could call a desiple of buhmat/ halfdragon/ half memphit/ favoured soul to take care of things.:)

Edit : I forgot Platuim Knight that one is fun.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz
02-25-07, 02:35 PM First of all make the party to know more things about the dragon . Use divination spells, pay bards, sages and the like. Then tell to us so we can help you better.

Probably you are fried even if you try such nasties as arrows of dragon slaying the dragon can be inmune to almost anything in the game with draconomicon feats.

Try spells and abilities directed not at the dragon but at the earth and air surrounds him so his magic resistance shows futile. Use spells that target dragons, use the spell find the gap, lower resistance. Think if your party can unleash a hurricane force wind to prevent flying for advantage. Lure the dragon to a planned trap.

Almost all dragons have fear aura, breath weapon and spells. Some others have psionics.

But the dragon can be anything maybe even a dragon of athas, an unstopable machine of destruction and nastier enemy than a dragon buffed with the draconomicon only imagine the combo psionic, spells, drain energy, and breath weapon all in one full attack.
Neijin
02-26-07, 07:55 PM It looks like this fight is going to wait a while due to playtime due to RL. I'll dig this thread back up later.

The Steadfast Determination feat is really good for a dragon, and one PC has it, so on second thought arrows of slaying are probably useless.
BelRex
03-02-07, 12:47 PM The Steadfast Determination feat is really good for a dragon, and one PC has it, so on second thought arrows of slaying are probably useless.

Where is that feat?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neijin 02-23-07, 08:31 PM	I have strong in-game reasoning to think that the character party is going to tangle with an epic dragon very soon. I don't know the type yet. How do you take down an epic dragon? Assume that it and its lair are impervious to teleportation effects and divinations. I'm sure it will be too big for Forcecage, and will probably have a continuous Freedom of Movement effect. effect. Character party (I made the descriptions generic since there is a good bit of third party material mixed in with WOTC) Melee Two handed PA Beefcake Level 24 Rogue, Melee, UMD, and thrown weapons Level 24 (12d10 repeating sneak attack, although it almost certainly won't be vulnerable to SA) Cleric 24, with heavy summoning emphasis Druid/Wizard/Arcane Hierophant 24 Campaign setting in Forgotten Realms, fairly high magic. Think CR28 great wyrm. Of course we'll cover the basics of using the elemental vulnerability of the dragon (if any) against it, and have protections against the particular type of breath weapon. I'll post more info as I can get my hands on it. I don't know the specific type, so I know that tailored advice to a particular type cannot be offered. General good advice and some good spells/magic items to use against all dragons would be helpful. Arrows of dragon slaying could be useful in large quantities, as the "anything but a 1" attrition of saves would eventually yield a failure. The spellcasters will cast Assay Resistance to help punch the SR. My character will probably cast a Quickened Faerie Fire the first round to prevent Invisibility from becoming a factor, and can cast two quickened spells a round via the Multispell feat The cleric has a medium rod of quickening and 34 Wis, the arcane hierophant has three rods of lesser quickening. The AH is a generalist wizard and has all the PH spells, but very few spells outside the PH, with a 34 Int and 30 Wis. The dragon is probably packing a minor artifact, so using Mage's Disjunction is going to be out of the question. During the last adventure, a group of adventurer NPCs cast Disjunction on us and managed to destroy a minor artifact of Lathander that the party was carrying. In this campaign, the deities don't have any compunctions against showing up on the Inner or Outer Planes, just the Prime Material. Lathander showed up and dispatched the Disjoining Wizard post haste. Please don't criticize the DM's call; I mention this only to point out the real danger of Disjunction in this campaign. While the player would certainly be willing to go with the slim chance, I really can't say the character would having seen the results firsthand. There is an unspoken agreement between the DM and players not to use some magic items and spells, such as the Dust of Sneezing and Choking, or other stuff that stuns you on a successful save/offer no save for a death effect, etc. The DM runs intelligent monsters with a fairly high degree of intelligence, is experienced, and is not afraid to use the advancement rules or templates, so I'm especially worried about this quest. As a metagaming aside, The DM also has the Draconomicon, so Dispelling Breath and other nastiness will probably be a staple of the Dragon. Based on previous game experiences, buffs are fairly unreliable as they get dispelled quickly. The party faces a lot of monsters with Quickened Greater Dispel Magic, for instance. The AH has a +45 Knowledge Arcana mod, so he should be able to learn any relevant lore about dragons that is needed. There, I hope that is enough information to go on for now. I was hoping initially that something would post a link to a dragon killing thread, thus making the need for additional information moot. Thanks for your ideas.
Novabomb 02-23-07, 09:06 PM	I apologize for the jest, but it needs to be said. Ask Elminster.
3DJutsu 02-23-07, 09:10 PM	I'm not helping with this, but how in Hades is the Rogue getting d10s' on SA? I assume some Epic feat is involved?
Neijin 02-23-07, 09:29 PM	3rd party feats
runestar 02-23-07, 10:15 PM	How many doses of dust of sneezing can your party afford?:P
Chaotis 02-23-07, 10:18 PM	First, I need EVERY SINGLE SPECIFICATION on the dragon. How epic are we talking here? Do you know what kind of dragon, or have a color lead? And, then do basic preparations: Protection from the dragon's breath weapon, something that especially hurts the dragon, ect. Then ask us. "Epic Dragon" doesn't help much.
NoldorForce 02-23-07, 10:46 PM	How many doses of dust of sneezing can your party afford?:PI second this, with the clarification that it's Dust of Sneezing and Choking.
Neijin 02-24-07, 10:06 AM	Edited first post to add a lot more info.
LordBOB777 02-24-07, 01:34 PM	A Maxamized Empower Shivering Touch should do the trick. Do not count on the dragon being weak to anything. There are two feats that lets the dragon overcome the weaknes in the draconomicon, so I would count on those. since the Dragon is Epic dont be suprised if it picks up the Multi Spell feat a few times. Remember, anything you can do it might be able to do it better.
Roivas 02-24-07, 02:30 PM	Your characters don't know they are going after a dragon? So they will be attacked from it by surprize and by a GM who can run enemies with intelligence? You die. The dragon will kill you unless you know what type it is before you fight it. Without this you can be sure it will slay you all rather quickly. Expect it to use breath weapon adamixture too, so it can do as much damage of another type as it's current breath weapon, after it dispells you protections against it's energy type. I played this trick on my players during a one shot against a great wyrm red dragon it did 480 points of acid/fire damage, with clinging breath. My players weren't too happy. If you learn of the dragon before fighting it, then you should prepare plenty of harms, and other nasty high damage spells with little to no saves worth mentioning. Throw up a time stop and hit it with vortex of teeth. Also toss up a few walls of stone or force to give you some cover against it's attacks. You might win if you are ready, but the dragon will still be a tough fight anyways.
Arctigear 02-24-07, 07:43 PM	Reduce it's dex to 0 so it's paralyzed?
steel_x 02-24-07, 08:37 PM	Well ... Epic level dragon? Looks like you need a real mage with lots of spell pens and stuff. But how ever. You could the " fight smarter not harder" way. Try lurring into a trap of some kind or something. Or pehaps make a construct army and bet its head in. Or pehaps you could quest for a sword of epic dragon hunting, or when that all that fails you could call a desiple of buhmat/ halfdragon/ half memphit/ favoured soul to take care of things.:) Edit : I forgot Platuim Knight that one is fun.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 02-25-07, 02:35 PM	First of all make the party to know more things about the dragon . Use divination spells, pay bards, sages and the like. Then tell to us so we can help you better. Probably you are fried even if you try such nasties as arrows of dragon slaying the dragon can be inmune to almost anything in the game with draconomicon feats. Try spells and abilities directed not at the dragon but at the earth and air surrounds him so his magic resistance shows futile. Use spells that target dragons, use the spell find the gap, lower resistance. Think if your party can unleash a hurricane force wind to prevent flying for advantage. Lure the dragon to a planned trap. Almost all dragons have fear aura, breath weapon and spells. Some others have psionics. But the dragon can be anything maybe even a dragon of athas, an unstopable machine of destruction and nastier enemy than a dragon buffed with the draconomicon only imagine the combo psionic, spells, drain energy, and breath weapon all in one full attack.
Neijin 02-26-07, 07:55 PM	It looks like this fight is going to wait a while due to playtime due to RL. I'll dig this thread back up later. The Steadfast Determination feat is really good for a dragon, and one PC has it, so on second thought arrows of slaying are probably useless.
BelRex 03-02-07, 12:47 PM	The Steadfast Determination feat is really good for a dragon, and one PC has it, so on second thought arrows of slaying are probably useless. Where is that feat?