New Character Idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Character Idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kihon
06-30-07, 06:54 PM MERITHIAN DRAGON KNIGHT SLAYER

Historically: The Merithians were fiercely independent and proud, seeking to perfect themselves through exercise, meditation, and sorcery. They had few reservations about altering their own bodies with magic in order to accomplish their long term goals. Their philosophy emphasized this pursuit of perfection, stating that it was every Merithian’s duty to drive themselves as hard as they could, until perfection – both physical and mental – was in their grasp.
Once the most elite warriors of Merithia, the centurion knights combined power, grace, and magic to perform astounding feats of martial acumen. From these mighty warriors a special select few rose above the rest, and were trained to be dragon slayers.

Class requirements:
Base Attack Bonus +20
Permanent Immunity to Fear
Speak Merithian
Killed at least one dragon before entering the class
Feats: Power Attack & Toughness (+1 HP bonus per level)
Trained by another Dragon Knight Slayer for at least six months

Level Epic Attack Bonus Epic Save Bonus Special
1 +1 +0 Bonus Feat
2 +1 +1 +1d6 Dam. on Dragon Attacks
3 +2 +1 Bonus Feat
4 +2 +2 Armor Skin (+2 Natural AC)
5 +3 +2 Bonus Feat
6 +3 +3 +2d8 Dam. on Dragon Attacks
7 +4 +3 Bonus Feat
8 +4 +4 Dragon Skinned (DR 5/-)
9 +5 +4 Bonus Feat
10 +5 +5 +3d10 Dam. Dragon Attacks

Class Features:
Bonus Feats – same as an Epic Fighter
Armor Skin – same as Epic Feat, but requires a finely designed dragon tattoo to be placed on the knight’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic to create).
Dragon Skinned – similar to the Legendary Dreadnought ability (thick skinned), but only applies to Dragon’s Attacks (both physical, breath weapons & spells). Requires another larger and more intricate dragon tattoo to be placed on the warrior’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic to create).
Special Damage – all attacks against dragons do +1d6 (2nd), +2d8 (6th), or +3d10 (10th) damage. Requires extensive understanding of dragon anatomy and philosophy. Requires the knight to study with a dragon for 1 month (1d6), 2 months (2d8), & 3 months (3d10) respectively, during their advancement in this class. The Dragon Knight Slayer must study with different dragons each time.

Hit Die: d10
Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: All

This class idea comes out of the "Wonders Out of Time" Module. It's a loose epic modification of the prestige class centurion knight. I know with all the extra feats it may be a bit over the top, but the paladin that desires an epic dragon slaying class has also looked at becoming a fighter just for the extra feats. How 'over powered' do you think this looks for a character that's already a 20th level paladin?
Tshern
06-30-07, 07:38 PM No offense, but isn't this class underpowered? Have a look at the Vassal of Bahamut from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It is pretty much just as powerful and is not an epic class. In my opinion, you could easily throw in some more natural armor, extra damage and maybe even save bonuses against dragons or at least their breath weapons. Also, try to come up with one groundshaking ability for the PrC. You know, the kind most prestige classes have at level ten, becoming an outsider for example.
Kihon
07-01-07, 08:19 AM I looked at the straight epic fighter. This character gets the same HD, armor, feats, attack bonus & save bonus as the fighter. It also gets the few extra things - such as extra damage against dragons, extra AC, & small DR/- against dragons. So basically it's a fighter but with extra stuff against dragons. So I did not see it as 'under powered', but I do agree a special class ability would be a good add to the mix.

The paladin is already an outsider (darn 1/2 celestials). I have looked at the Vassal of Bahamet and I was thinking of modifying that also if we keep going. So his character would be 20 paladin, then 10 dragon slayer, then 10 Vassal.

Any other comments or suggestions (good or bad)?
Tshern
07-01-07, 02:13 PM Looking at the Fighter might not give you the best image of class progressions as it is underpowered as well, but if you consider that your class is already good enough, I am not there to say no. But taking 10 levels of Vassal of Bahamut is definitely not a bad idea.
Tequila_Sunrise
07-01-07, 03:09 PM Whether or not you consider the fighter to be underpowered, you have just made a class that is exactly the same as a fighter, but better. No drawbacks, just flat out better. That's poor design, because what you're effectively saying to your players is that they have absolutely zero reason to play a straight fighter. The only way I could see this class working is if you give fighters something that this class doesn't have.
archerpwr
07-01-07, 09:02 PM This class is really tasty for a 1 or 3 level dip for a gish. Dragonslayer 1, and a couple feats gets you right in. I'd make the epic feats at even levels to counteract dipping gishes.
rob_douglas
07-02-07, 10:40 AM I wouldn't give feats every 2 levels. That is the domain of a straight fighter - no special abilities of any kind. I would probably require Favored Enemy (Dragons), or if not, give Favored Enemy (Dragons) with bonuses of +2 every so many levels. This is as good or better than dice of damage, since it doubles/triples on a crit. But I will keep the extra damage dice too, and add a burst.

For extra damage, I would not use the non-scaling features you have there. An Epic PrC should not be a 10-level PrC, it should scale indefinitely. Note you don't need and shouldn't include EAB and ESB. The values you gave are actually only valid if the PrC is taken at an odd level (21st, 23rd, etc) and not if you take it at an even level.

Here is my rewrite:

Class requirements:
Base Attack Bonus +20
Immunity to Fear
Favored Enemy (Dragon)
Speak Merithian
Killed at least one dragon before entering the class
Feats: Power Attack & Improved Toughness (+1 HP bonus per level)
Trained by another Dragon Knight Slayer for at least six months

Level Special
1 Favored Enemy Bonus +2
2 Dragon Strike (+1d6 Damage to Dragons)
3 Armor Skin (+2 Natural AC)
4 Dragon Skinned (DR 5/-)
5 Bonus Feat
6 Favored Enemy Bonus +4
7 Dragon Strike (+2d6)
8 Armor Skin (+2 Natural AC)
4 Dragon Skinned (DR 10/-)
10 Bonus Feat

Class Features:
Favored Enemy Bonus increase by +2 at first level and every
5 levels thereafter. No other Favored Enemies are gained.
Dragon Strike: A Dragon Knight Slayer gains +1d6 damage on
attacks against dragons at 2nd level, and an additional +1d6 per 5 levels
thereafter. (If you want to add study requirements you can, but no other
class has them, and forcing a 1-3 month hiatus for study is not good in
some campaigns. Rather, if you want to have study requirements, you
should implement them for all class advancement in campaign house rules.)
Armor Skin – same as Epic Feat, but requires a finely designed dragon
tattoo to be placed on the knight’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic
to create).
Bonus Feats – the Dragon Knight Slayer gains a bonus feat every
5 levels from the Epic Fighter list
Dragon Skinned – similar to the Legendary Dreadnought ability (thick
skinned), but only applies to Dragon’s Attacks (both physical, breath weapons
& spells). Requires another larger and more intricate dragon tattoo to be
placed on the warrior’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic to create).
This increase +5/- every 5 levels.

Hit Die: d10
Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: All
Class Skills: fighter skills, plus Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Spot,
Move Silently, Hide, Sense Motive
Kihon
07-02-07, 11:04 AM Alright it's a pretty tough class to qualify for. First you had to visit a lost civilization (unlikely to happen) - see "Wonders out of Time" module. Then you need to spend some time there training. Then you have a couple of feats required. I'm thinking of adding another feat as a pre-req as well. So 3 feats needed to get in, in addition to speaking a lost language - so skill points spent there. Killing a dragon isn't that impossible considering it's an epic class. There are some requirements to continue advancing in the class as well. So it's not nearly as easy to qualify for the class as an epic fighter class would be. All that said - I will agree that getting Feats at every other level is the signature of the fighter class, so I'm going to switch that.

I do like the idea of making Dragons a Favored enemy like a ranger class, but I'm going to make it at first level and advance it a little - maybe +4 to Hit, +4 on Damage, and +10 on skill checks when dealing with dragons. How's that sound instead of the first free feat.

I do have a question about something that was referenced. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I've checked the Epic Handbook again. I thought the Base Attack & Base Saves were the same for all Epic Characters. Basically from 21-30th level everyone would get a +5 to attack & +5 to all saves. Is that incorrect? Can special classes improve on these?
Kihon
07-02-07, 06:07 PM Ok thanks for the input. I think I have enough to flesh him out at this point. I'll be using a couple of the posts ideas combined with my own. Thanks again everyone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kihon 06-30-07, 06:54 PM	MERITHIAN DRAGON KNIGHT SLAYER Historically: The Merithians were fiercely independent and proud, seeking to perfect themselves through exercise, meditation, and sorcery. They had few reservations about altering their own bodies with magic in order to accomplish their long term goals. Their philosophy emphasized this pursuit of perfection, stating that it was every Merithian’s duty to drive themselves as hard as they could, until perfection – both physical and mental – was in their grasp. Once the most elite warriors of Merithia, the centurion knights combined power, grace, and magic to perform astounding feats of martial acumen. From these mighty warriors a special select few rose above the rest, and were trained to be dragon slayers. Class requirements: Base Attack Bonus +20 Permanent Immunity to Fear Speak Merithian Killed at least one dragon before entering the class Feats: Power Attack & Toughness (+1 HP bonus per level) Trained by another Dragon Knight Slayer for at least six months Level Epic Attack Bonus Epic Save Bonus Special 1 +1 +0 Bonus Feat 2 +1 +1 +1d6 Dam. on Dragon Attacks 3 +2 +1 Bonus Feat 4 +2 +2 Armor Skin (+2 Natural AC) 5 +3 +2 Bonus Feat 6 +3 +3 +2d8 Dam. on Dragon Attacks 7 +4 +3 Bonus Feat 8 +4 +4 Dragon Skinned (DR 5/-) 9 +5 +4 Bonus Feat 10 +5 +5 +3d10 Dam. Dragon Attacks Class Features: Bonus Feats – same as an Epic Fighter Armor Skin – same as Epic Feat, but requires a finely designed dragon tattoo to be placed on the knight’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic to create). Dragon Skinned – similar to the Legendary Dreadnought ability (thick skinned), but only applies to Dragon’s Attacks (both physical, breath weapons & spells). Requires another larger and more intricate dragon tattoo to be placed on the warrior’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic to create). Special Damage – all attacks against dragons do +1d6 (2nd), +2d8 (6th), or +3d10 (10th) damage. Requires extensive understanding of dragon anatomy and philosophy. Requires the knight to study with a dragon for 1 month (1d6), 2 months (2d8), & 3 months (3d10) respectively, during their advancement in this class. The Dragon Knight Slayer must study with different dragons each time. Hit Die: d10 Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: All This class idea comes out of the "Wonders Out of Time" Module. It's a loose epic modification of the prestige class centurion knight. I know with all the extra feats it may be a bit over the top, but the paladin that desires an epic dragon slaying class has also looked at becoming a fighter just for the extra feats. How 'over powered' do you think this looks for a character that's already a 20th level paladin?
Tshern 06-30-07, 07:38 PM	No offense, but isn't this class underpowered? Have a look at the Vassal of Bahamut from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It is pretty much just as powerful and is not an epic class. In my opinion, you could easily throw in some more natural armor, extra damage and maybe even save bonuses against dragons or at least their breath weapons. Also, try to come up with one groundshaking ability for the PrC. You know, the kind most prestige classes have at level ten, becoming an outsider for example.
Kihon 07-01-07, 08:19 AM	I looked at the straight epic fighter. This character gets the same HD, armor, feats, attack bonus & save bonus as the fighter. It also gets the few extra things - such as extra damage against dragons, extra AC, & small DR/- against dragons. So basically it's a fighter but with extra stuff against dragons. So I did not see it as 'under powered', but I do agree a special class ability would be a good add to the mix. The paladin is already an outsider (darn 1/2 celestials). I have looked at the Vassal of Bahamet and I was thinking of modifying that also if we keep going. So his character would be 20 paladin, then 10 dragon slayer, then 10 Vassal. Any other comments or suggestions (good or bad)?
Tshern 07-01-07, 02:13 PM	Looking at the Fighter might not give you the best image of class progressions as it is underpowered as well, but if you consider that your class is already good enough, I am not there to say no. But taking 10 levels of Vassal of Bahamut is definitely not a bad idea.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-01-07, 03:09 PM	Whether or not you consider the fighter to be underpowered, you have just made a class that is exactly the same as a fighter, but better. No drawbacks, just flat out better. That's poor design, because what you're effectively saying to your players is that they have absolutely zero reason to play a straight fighter. The only way I could see this class working is if you give fighters something that this class doesn't have.
archerpwr 07-01-07, 09:02 PM	This class is really tasty for a 1 or 3 level dip for a gish. Dragonslayer 1, and a couple feats gets you right in. I'd make the epic feats at even levels to counteract dipping gishes.
rob_douglas 07-02-07, 10:40 AM	I wouldn't give feats every 2 levels. That is the domain of a straight fighter - no special abilities of any kind. I would probably require Favored Enemy (Dragons), or if not, give Favored Enemy (Dragons) with bonuses of +2 every so many levels. This is as good or better than dice of damage, since it doubles/triples on a crit. But I will keep the extra damage dice too, and add a burst. For extra damage, I would not use the non-scaling features you have there. An Epic PrC should not be a 10-level PrC, it should scale indefinitely. Note you don't need and shouldn't include EAB and ESB. The values you gave are actually only valid if the PrC is taken at an odd level (21st, 23rd, etc) and not if you take it at an even level. Here is my rewrite: Class requirements: Base Attack Bonus +20 Immunity to Fear Favored Enemy (Dragon) Speak Merithian Killed at least one dragon before entering the class Feats: Power Attack & Improved Toughness (+1 HP bonus per level) Trained by another Dragon Knight Slayer for at least six months Level Special 1 Favored Enemy Bonus +2 2 Dragon Strike (+1d6 Damage to Dragons) 3 Armor Skin (+2 Natural AC) 4 Dragon Skinned (DR 5/-) 5 Bonus Feat 6 Favored Enemy Bonus +4 7 Dragon Strike (+2d6) 8 Armor Skin (+2 Natural AC) 4 Dragon Skinned (DR 10/-) 10 Bonus Feat Class Features: Favored Enemy Bonus increase by +2 at first level and every 5 levels thereafter. No other Favored Enemies are gained. Dragon Strike: A Dragon Knight Slayer gains +1d6 damage on attacks against dragons at 2nd level, and an additional +1d6 per 5 levels thereafter. (If you want to add study requirements you can, but no other class has them, and forcing a 1-3 month hiatus for study is not good in some campaigns. Rather, if you want to have study requirements, you should implement them for all class advancement in campaign house rules.) Armor Skin – same as Epic Feat, but requires a finely designed dragon tattoo to be placed on the knight’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic to create). Bonus Feats – the Dragon Knight Slayer gains a bonus feat every 5 levels from the Epic Fighter list Dragon Skinned – similar to the Legendary Dreadnought ability (thick skinned), but only applies to Dragon’s Attacks (both physical, breath weapons & spells). Requires another larger and more intricate dragon tattoo to be placed on the warrior’s body (uses dragon’s blood and magic to create). This increase +5/- every 5 levels. Hit Die: d10 Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: All Class Skills: fighter skills, plus Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Spot, Move Silently, Hide, Sense Motive
Kihon 07-02-07, 11:04 AM	Alright it's a pretty tough class to qualify for. First you had to visit a lost civilization (unlikely to happen) - see "Wonders out of Time" module. Then you need to spend some time there training. Then you have a couple of feats required. I'm thinking of adding another feat as a pre-req as well. So 3 feats needed to get in, in addition to speaking a lost language - so skill points spent there. Killing a dragon isn't that impossible considering it's an epic class. There are some requirements to continue advancing in the class as well. So it's not nearly as easy to qualify for the class as an epic fighter class would be. All that said - I will agree that getting Feats at every other level is the signature of the fighter class, so I'm going to switch that. I do like the idea of making Dragons a Favored enemy like a ranger class, but I'm going to make it at first level and advance it a little - maybe +4 to Hit, +4 on Damage, and +10 on skill checks when dealing with dragons. How's that sound instead of the first free feat. I do have a question about something that was referenced. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I've checked the Epic Handbook again. I thought the Base Attack & Base Saves were the same for all Epic Characters. Basically from 21-30th level everyone would get a +5 to attack & +5 to all saves. Is that incorrect? Can special classes improve on these?
Kihon 07-02-07, 06:07 PM	Ok thanks for the input. I think I have enough to flesh him out at this point. I'll be using a couple of the posts ideas combined with my own. Thanks again everyone.