Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Salernodc 04-10-07, 11:22 PM	Here is a saucy feat for the fighter types based on one called Destructive Attack in Dragon issue #297 (my favorite Dragon magazine of all time). Ultimate Critical [Epic] You have tapped into mystic powers of strength and energy, enabling you to destroy plants, undead, and constructs with critical hits. Prerequisites: BAB +24, Str 25+, Wis 19+, Cleave, Devastating Critical, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Overwhelming Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus Benefit: With a chosen weapon or weapon group, you can make critical strikes against plant, undead, and construct targets. If the target fails its’ fortitude saving throw - it is destroyed – even though plants, undead, and constructs are normally immune to critical hits. However the target receives a +8 on its fortitude save, or +12 for epic opponents. ________________________________________ ___________________ Any constructive insight? Are the save bonuses unfair to the player taking the feat? Or an even balance since many of these monsters do not have high fortitude saves? I know that the Greater Truedeath Crystals from the Magic Item Compendium do not allow undead any save bonuses vs. sneak attacks and critical hits. Thanks kindly for any thoughtful feedback.
Asciiman 04-11-07, 04:23 AM	At epic level almost nothing will fail that save. Especially for warriors that have that high strength and that high wisdom. I'd drop the wisdom requirement entirely infact. That being said though, this feat offers a nice consolation prize if they make the save, they still take the crit damage.
metalhawk 04-11-07, 09:11 AM	Here is a saucy feat for the fighter types based on one called Destructive Attack in Dragon issue #297 (my favorite Dragon magazine of all time). Ultimate Critical [Epic] You have tapped into mystic powers of strength and energy, enabling you to destroy plants, undead, and constructs with critical hits. Prerequisites: BAB +24, Str 25+, Wis 19+, Cleave, Devastating Critical, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Overwhelming Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus Benefit: With a chosen weapon or weapon group, you can make critical strikes against plant, undead, and construct targets. If the target fails its’ fortitude saving throw - it is destroyed – even though plants, undead, and constructs are normally immune to critical hits. However the target receives a +8 on its fortitude save, or +12 for epic opponents. ________________________________________ ___________________ Any constructive insight? Are the save bonuses unfair to the player taking the feat? Or an even balance since many of these monsters do not have high fortitude saves? I know that the Greater Truedeath Crystals from the Magic Item Compendium do not allow undead any save bonuses vs. sneak attacks and critical hits. Thanks kindly for any thoughtful feedback. What's base of the save itself? Similar to Devastating Critical? This sort of looks like Devastating Critical for Plants, Constructs and Undead, with the Bonus that it allows you to critical them whether they fail or not, and Balancing that with the fact that they get a bonus on their saving throw. Rob
Yodasatomicweed 04-11-07, 10:25 AM	Personally, I would add Epic Weapon Focus in as a prerequisite, and I wouldn't allow a differentiation in save bonuses based on a creature being epic or non epic. Just keep it at +8. Most fighters would pick it up simply to get crits versus plants, constructs, and undead.
Salernodc 04-11-07, 12:34 PM	The save is 10 + 1/2 character level + strength modifier - just as with Devastating Critical. The reason I thought to allow a bonus to the monsters' saves is that epic and non-epic undead/constructs/plants all have fairly low fortitude saves. Any epic warrior that crits one of the aforementioned opponents will have a 95-100% chance of destroying said monster. If a character invests this much into an epic feat (and the requirements for Ultimate Critical are as steep as nearly any epic feat) they deserve to reap the rewards. I was thinking of the +8 save bonus merely for balance....that still may be too high though. Note - a character must have a BAB of +24 meaning that they must be at least 27th level. The strength requirement is 25. Thus the save DC, at minimum, is 10 + 1/2 27 + 7 = 30. Check every FORT save for any epic undead or construct creature - Hunefer: +18 Lavawight: +12 Mithril Golem: +12 Adamantine Golem: +18 Winterwight: +14 Thus I thought of adding +8 or so to make it harder to destroy the monster - with the caveat being that crit damage still applies. Asciiman - here is your quote: "At epic level almost nothing will fail that save." How can that be based on the stats in the previous paragraph? Or did you mean that the monsters will always fail the save? I do not want Epic Weapon Focus as a prereq because in 3.5 one must take Greater Weapon Focus (requiring 8 levels of fighter) to obtain Epic Weapon Focus. Check the back of Complete Warrior (in the epic section) to confirm this...but I'm pretty darn sure that's the case. I do not want to exclude Martial Adepts, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers. Thanks for the feedback guys.
timidbarbarian 04-11-07, 01:48 PM	I think you have to compensate for the fact that the undead and constructs don't have constitution scores, hindering their fort saves. Plants do, though, so I'm not sure that the bonus should apply to them. Personally, I would lower the requirements and just allow a crit against them, explicitly saying that devastating crit does not apply. Since their hit point total is generally much lower (lack of con score) this seems like enough. Dealing with the bonus seems a little awkward for actual gameplay. Perhaps you can give undead a bonus on the save equal to their cha score.
Salernodc 04-11-07, 01:56 PM	I think you have to compensate for the fact that the undead and constructs don't have constitution scores, hindering their fort saves. Plants do, though, so I'm not sure that the bonus should apply to them. Personally, I would lower the requirements and just allow a crit against them, explicitly saying that devastating crit does not apply. Since their hit point total is generally much lower (lack of con score) this seems like enough. Dealing with the bonus seems a little awkward for actual gameplay. Perhaps you can give undead a bonus on the save equal to their cha score. Since any character can pay a few grand for a greater truedeath crystal- which allows crits against undead....any character taking this epic feat deserves some extra uumph beyond a non-epic item that anyone else can use. So no - I'm not going to get rid of the Devastating Critical effect. However - good idea for a CHA mod bonus instead of the standard +8 or so I mentioned earlier.
Chanmanm8 04-11-07, 03:56 PM	Can't the immunities be overcome easily with 3 level 1 spells: Golem Strike, Grave Strike, and Vine Strike. And while these don't give the ability to destroy them (as others on this thread believe would be easily saved against), these would additionally beneficial due to allowing sneak attacks to work as well?
Salernodc 04-11-07, 04:03 PM	Can't the immunities be overcome easily with 3 level 1 spells: Golem Strike, Grave Strike, and Vine Strike. And while these don't give the ability to destroy them (as others on this thread believe would be easily saved against), these would additionally beneficial due to allowing sneak attacks to work as well? A warrior character/martial adept should not have to (often/usually) rely on a magic item with the above 3 spells or another character to cast them. One should have some abilities that are inherently self reliant. My character does not want to over rely on items and spells from others. The ability to destroy the 3 types of creatures mentioned is one of the primary bonuses of this feat and a reason it is relatively challenging to qualify for....again thank you for the input.
Yodasatomicweed 04-11-07, 04:11 PM	Why not? You're bypassing an immunity here. Also, I may not be familiar with it, but is a Truedeath Crystal slotless, or does it occupy a weapon slot type thing? But anyways, bypassing an immunity is usually something that requires magic. The only real exception to this I've seen is the Music of the Gods feat for Bards, a class that has other things to do in epic. Like Epic Inspiration (till the 3.5 castration of it). I really don't think one feat should grant all of this. Your requirements are identical to Devastating Critical, save for Wis 19. Ok, so get a +5 Tome and a +6 item, and your Wis 8 fighter suddenly has the insight needed for the feat. Honestly, it seems most appropriate as a feat to take after Death of Enemies for a ranger, assuming he had these types as favored enemies.
Salernodc 04-11-07, 04:26 PM	I really don't think one feat should grant all of this. Your requirements are identical to Devastating Critical, save for Wis 19. Ok, so get a +5 Tome and a +6 item, and your Wis 8 fighter suddenly has the insight needed for the feat. Honestly, it seems most appropriate as a feat to take after Death of Enemies for a ranger, assuming he had these types as favored enemies. I like your willingness to help & understand. Well played. In regards to a feat granting "all of this" - I don't know what to say other than - we'll have to agree to disagree. Remember that you can't take this till level 27 and there are a bunch of prereqs. I'm sure there are abilities, feats or spell combos you like that I might find too powerful. We're just coming at that issue from opposite sides of the street. The Wisdom and Strength prereqs - like any ability score prereqs - must be natural scores. The tome does help with a natural increase but the item would not. And yes - the requirements are 95% similar to Devastating Critical. Exactly. The same way Devastating Critical is so similar to Overwhelming Critical. That's the point - a smooth, linear feat tree/progression. You mention the ability to harm undead and such needing to come from a magic source. Look at the majority of maneuvers & stances in the TOB. Fighter types pulling off seemingly magical effects.
bluemage55 04-11-07, 06:39 PM	The Wisdom and Strength prereqs - like any ability score prereqs - must be natural scores. The tome does help with a natural increase but the item would not. That's not true. All ability score requirements can be fulfilled with as many bonuses as you have. The feat simply becomes unusable if at any time you fail to meet the requirements (like when someone sunders the item you need to provide the necessary Wis). You mention the ability to harm undead and such needing to come from a magic source. Look at the majority of maneuvers & stances in the TOB. Fighter types pulling off seemingly magical effects. Many of the "seemingly magical effects" that you refer to either actually do come from maneuvers that are supernatural, or are possible without supernatural powers. Being able to critical undead, which are physically incapable of being affected by physical hits, would indeed require some sort of supernatural effect. It's like saying that you want to be able to inflict bleeding wounds (Con damage) to a golem. Without magic, it isn't happening.
rob_douglas 04-11-07, 06:57 PM	I don't think they are the same thing. A critical hit is one that causes more hp of damage. If an undead can be attacked in such a way that it takes hp damage, then it is fine to have a feat that allows that hp damage to be greater under some circumstances, even without magic. And in that case, whatever Devastating Critical does, it should be able to do to an undead, etc. I would make the bonus be +10 to the Fort save, simply because that is what you get if you are immune to mind effects and hit by Music of the Gods. I don't see a need for the Wis 19 requirement at all. I think it would be fine without that. I don't see this as an unbalancing feat. ROB
Yodasatomicweed 04-11-07, 07:32 PM	Sorry for not clarifying, what I meant by "all this" was allowing criticals on three types of creautures, and possibly destroying them as well. I'd be much more comfortable with this feat if it broke down into 3 seperate feats (one for each creature type), and possibly required like 5 ranks in an appropriate knowledge skill. Knowledge (Arcana) for constructs, Knowledge (Nature) for plants, and Knowledge (Religion) for undead. I realize that's a little harsh for fighters, I'm just very leery about completely overcoming critical immunities with a feat.
Salernodc 04-11-07, 07:44 PM	Again - thank you for the thoughtful responses guys. I obviously side with Rob over BlueMage but a compromise might be adding a knowledge (arcana or religion) prereq as the base for the "magic knowledge". It's just my opinion that warrior types should be allowed to have some supernatural abilities. Again, I'll agree to disagree with BlueMage. Yodaweed - I like your knowledge prereqs, but I would not have all 3 I don't think. The feat already has a large prereq list - even if I dump the Wisdom requirement. Again, this is based on a feat I found called Destructive Attack in Dragon #297. That feat was designed for assassins and sneak attack damage & death attacks. I understand Dragon is not 100% canon....but for me Dragon has strong & longstanding credibility. I altered the feat for fighter types and added it as an extension to the critical/power attack feat tree. I still have no issue assigning a feat the ability to affect all 3 types. With all of the prereqs (including a 27th level minimum) and the foundation laid by Dragon, I am standing firm on that stance. But I've really appreciated the help and input. My flavor background/explanation might revolve around characters honing their critical attacks with magical study and research into the positive material plane/energy.
bluemage55 04-11-07, 08:34 PM	I obviously side with Rob over BlueMage but a compromise might be adding a knowledge (arcana or religion) prereq as the base for the "magic knowledge". It's just my opinion that warrior types should be allowed to have some supernatural abilities. Again, I'll agree to disagree with BlueMage. I'm not saying that it's not ok to have supernatural abilities. What I am saying is that if you want to crit undead and other creatures immune to criticals, the ability to do so is supernatural. In other words, you would need to add the caveat that the feat is supernatural (and that would cause it to fail in an AMF or dead magic zone). In any case, I'd like to present an existing feat taken from d20 modern, as well as an epic version of the feat that will do what you're looking for. SUPERNATURAL STRIKE You may score critical hits against creatures that are normally unaffected by critical hits. Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +2 or better. Benefit: When you roll a threat against a creature normally unaffected by critical hits (such as a construct, ooze, or undead), you may check for a critical hit and deal the increased damage if the threat is confirmed. Creatures unaffected by massive damage are still unaffected by massive damage resulting from a critical hit. This is a supernatural ability. DEVASTATING SUPERNATURAL STRIKE [EPIC] Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +21, Str 25, Cleave, Devastating Critical, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (chosen weapon), Overwhelming Critical (chosen weapon), Power Attack, Supernatural Strike, Weapon Focus (chosen weapon). Benefit: The character’s Devastating Critical can affect even those normally immune to critical hits. However, such creatures gain a +10 bonus on their Fortitude saves to resist death. This is a supernatural ability. Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time a character takes the feat, it applies to a different type of weapon.
Salernodc 04-11-07, 08:42 PM	Good stuff BlueMage. Thanks. I'll just make Ultimate Critical an epic & supernatural feat. However, in regards to AMF and dead magic zones - if the feat involves a connection to positive material energy - would such a connection really fail in the aforementioned areas? Do supernatural abilities or spell-like abilities fail 100% in those areas? i understand magic not working - but positive energy? Not sure there....
rob_douglas 04-11-07, 11:46 PM	Yes, a supernatural ability always fails in an AMF. I think it is fine to make this a Supernatural ability. Bluemage - you forgot Devestating Critical in the prereqs for your new feat. It should be there, since you reference it in the description. ROB
bluemage55 04-12-07, 01:52 AM	Yes, I did forget. As a sidenote to Saldernoc, "Ultimate Critical" sounds cheesy. Stick with the name I provided, or something like Improved Devastating Critical.
Krispieman 04-12-07, 04:09 AM	Yes, I did forget. As a sidenote to Saldernoc, "Ultimate Critical" sounds cheesy. Stick with the name I provided, or something like Improved Devastating Critical. Not only does it sound cheesy, it sounds final. And nothing in Epic should be final, it's all about the infinite scaling ;) K-man :cool:
Salernodc 04-12-07, 06:12 PM	Yes, I did forget. As a sidenote to Saldernoc, "Ultimate Critical" sounds cheesy. Stick with the name I provided, or something like Improved Devastating Critical. Perhaps - but both of our ideas for the name lack creativity and flair. If pressed, I would come up with something more elegant....along the lines of examples in TOB. Blue Moon Strike Meteor/Meteoric Critical Strike of the Sun and Moon Omnistrike/Omni Critical Those aren't perfect....just off the top of my head. Again - your feedback is appreciated, but if you're going to throw the "cheese" card, you've got to come stronger than Improved Devastating Critical. Guys - have a great week and a good evening. Special thanks to Rob Douglas & BlueMage55 for the many posts.
Salernodc 04-12-07, 06:16 PM	Not only does it sound cheesy, it sounds final. And nothing in Epic should be final, it's all about the infinite scaling ;) K-man :cool: OK - then what are your creative suggestions?
bluemage55 04-12-07, 07:02 PM	Maneuvers often have names like Windmill Girallon Flesh Rip and Diamond Nightmare Blade. Feats, on the other hand, aren't supposed to have flashy names.
Witch 04-12-07, 07:04 PM	Maneuvers often have names like Windmill Girallon Flesh Rip and Diamond Nightmare Blade. Feats, on the other hand, aren't supposed to have flashy names. Hardly a rule. Look at the tactical feats in Tome of battle for such a thing :)
Salernodc 04-12-07, 07:07 PM	Maneuvers often have names like Windmill Girallon Flesh Rip and Diamond Nightmare Blade. Feats, on the other hand, aren't supposed to have flashy names. Why not? Where does it say that? Book, page number, etc. Why couldn't one come up with attempts at creative names?
bluemage55 04-12-07, 07:57 PM	Just look at the other feats. When creating things, one should try to stay within the framework of given examples. For example, there's no rule saying that you can't have a prestige class that has ability score requirements. However, if you wish to create one that fits with the rest, it should not have them.
Salernodc 04-12-07, 08:01 PM	Did Da Vinci, Einstein, Picasso, and Shakespeare always stay within the framework? Sorry - that's too conservative a viewpoint for me. I'm not saying one should change the rules indiscriminately, but...you know what? Let's just drop this entire discussion. I'm out scout.
Krispieman 04-13-07, 04:29 AM	OK - then what are your creative suggestions? Annihilative Critical, Baleful Critical, Baneful Critical, Eradicative Critical, Malignant Critical, Ruinous Critical, Savage Critical I could probably come up with more if I don't focus on the Critical bit, but more on the effect it has; being deadly to constructs, plants & undead. K-man :cool:
Bernat 04-14-07, 06:31 PM	Do you think that Supernatural Critical (and the Devastating version) would be unbalanced in regular d20? I've always wanted to crit undead et al with my adamantite falchion :D.
Geraturatu 04-14-07, 07:29 PM	I don't think it should even be allowed to affect undead and constructs. Seeing as they already have a tremendously low hp total due to no con modifier, the fact that they are immune to criticals is one of their few advantages. If you take that away, they will be tremendously weak even at epic levels. They would die far too quickly since criticals hapen alot more often at epic levels, and they already kicked those sad decayed buckets pretty quickly before. I guess this might just upset me since undead and constructs are used about as much as anything else in my campaign.
Salernodc 04-16-07, 09:10 AM	I don't think it should even be allowed to affect undead and constructs. Seeing as they already have a tremendously low hp total due to no con modifier, the fact that they are immune to criticals is one of their few advantages. If you take that away, they will be tremendously weak even at epic levels. They would die far too quickly since criticals hapen alot more often at epic levels, and they already kicked those sad decayed buckets pretty quickly before. I guess this might just upset me since undead and constructs are used about as much as anything else in my campaign. 1. your issue regarding low hp is not necessarily true across the boards. There are powerful undead with a fair amount of HP. That's also why I thought to add a +8 - +12 bonus to the target's fortitude save. That's the equivalent of a +16 - +24 CON boost in relation to saves. 2. If undead and constructs are used so much in your campaign, I have no response or solution to that thorny problem. My only thought would be this - not all of your players/characters will have this feat. Probably only one. In addition, with the option of epic spells for the casters out there, warrior types deserve and need some extra love. Remember that one must be at least 27th level to take the feat and there's a bunch of prereqs. This feat does not grow on trees. 3. If a warrior character invests this much into an epic feat, you can bet your ascot they deserve to do some saucy things. Besides, in the Magic Item Compendium, characters can attach greater truedeath crystals to weapons and affect undead with criticals. And there's no bonus to saves with those cheap magic items.
bluemage55 04-16-07, 12:20 PM	The bonus should be a flat +10, as per Music of the Gods.
Yodasatomicweed 04-16-07, 02:47 PM	This feat does not grow on trees. But it's part of a tree...