Pandemonium (unique epic spell) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Pandemonium (unique epic spell) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nezkrul
07-22-07, 09:06 PM Pandemonium
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 5
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 196,728,000 ft.
Area: 34,633,705,220,000,000,000 10 ft. cubes
Duration: 364 days
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 45,000 gp; 2 days; 1,800 XP. Seeds: Animate (DC 25), Factors: Change from Target to Area: 4 10ft. cubes (+10), Double Range 20 times (+40), Double Area 63 times (+126), Double Duration 19 times (+38), Affect Attended Objects (+10), Mitigating Factors: 42d6 Backlash (-42), Burn 20,000 XP (-200)

Every Object and ounce of non-living matter, no matter the size, within the area of effect immediately animates and becomes hostile toward everything that moves. This animation lasts until the objects are dealt enough damage to destroy or unanimate them (an animated object's hitpoints, as described in the MM), or 1 year passes on the plane of existence in which this spell is cast.

yes, that is enough range and area to animate everything on earth, including 10 miles of atmosphere.
props to sky dragon knight for teaching me how to do logarithmic math to figure out the factors.
archerpwr
07-23-07, 12:01 AM Aside from the rediculus XP cost that's pretty nice. Props to you.
Nezkrul
07-23-07, 02:44 AM Aside from the rediculus XP cost that's pretty nice. Props to you.

Didn't want to make it a ritual, heh :D
Starmage21
07-23-07, 03:15 AM Didn't want to make it a ritual, heh :D

Rituals are OK so long as you consider that the only people youre going to seriously be able to rely on are the other party members for spell slots. In the party of #warrior, #arcanecaster, #healer, #skillmonkey you can really only rely on 2 sets of 9th level spellcasters: The Mage(Wizard, sorcerer, whatever) and the Cleric(too awesome to replace with random splatbook divine casters).

I think my spell in the discount epic spell empourium, Deific Might uses the aid of another caster with 9th level spells.
Feredenil
07-23-07, 04:28 AM You can't 'double' the range, area and duration so many times using the same factors. 'Double' gets 'triple' and 'quadruple' with the DC multiplied each time.
For example, to triple the range you need to multiply the DC by two. To quadruple, multiply by three, etc.This is a universal rule for DnD and you can see it everywhere. It is best described in the DM's guide page 246 'adding new abilities' to magic items with 'double' or 'triple' abilities.
This is still AdHoc and you need to ask your DM if he lets you increase factors more than 'double' in the first place.
For a spell with this range, duration and area, the real DC is more
like '34,633,705,220,000,000,000' than it is '5'...
unless you can find someone to 'spend' 34 Godzillion XP or take a Teraton of backlash damage to cast it, that is...
IceFractal
07-23-07, 06:17 AM Actually, pretty much all the factors can be applied multiple times - it would be pretty silly otherwise, as Epic spells wouldn't scale up even as high as normal spells.

Nice spell - however:For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is per round.

So either ditch the backlash, or get ready to live on the positive energy plane for a year every time you cast this. And actually, it wouldn't hurt to bump the DC of this - no point trying to save on research when the spell itself has such a huge XP cost.
Feredenil
07-23-07, 07:59 AM True, I don't argue. Unless noted otherwise factors can be applied more than once.
There's no factor that would change the Transmutation's seed from instantaneous to 364 days without ad Hoc.
The book does say that permanent or instantaneous effects cannot be increased any further, yet, with a respected ad Hoc it 'could' be possible. 'Could' doesn't mean that after this is applied all normal Factors like 'increase duration by 100%' should just be added in any number of times, just like all other seeds, however.

(animating a whole planet is a hell of an epic 'adventure' idea, none the less)
archerpwr
07-23-07, 08:26 AM Rituals are OK so long as you consider that the only people youre going to seriously be able to rely on are the other party members for spell slots. In the party of #warrior, #arcanecaster, #healer, #skillmonkey you can really only rely on 2 sets of 9th level spellcasters: The Mage(Wizard, sorcerer, whatever) and the Cleric(too awesome to replace with random splatbook divine casters).

I think my spell in the discount epic spell empourium, Deific Might uses the aid of another caster with 9th level spells.

In the group I'm in the last guy to play a wizard made a whole bunch of simulacrums of himself and had them powering his epic spells. The results were patently rediculus. I won't do that though.
Starmage21
07-23-07, 12:31 PM In the group I'm in the last guy to play a wizard made a whole bunch of simulacrums of himself and had them powering his epic spells. The results were patently rediculus. I won't do that though.

you have people like that sometimes who clearly want to abuse the rules. Thats when you go from powergaming to munchkinism.

...maybe doing it once is OK(one simulacrum), but multiple? pffft!
archerpwr
07-23-07, 12:35 PM you have people like that sometimes who clearly want to abuse the rules. Thats when you go from powergaming to munchkinism.

...maybe doing it once is OK(one simulacrum), but multiple? pffft!

The build was something like wizard 25. Little if any prestige classing. According to the DM there were roughly 60 and it cost him the ability to advance a level with all the xp. The guy gave a bunch of rediculus permanant epic buffs to the party (60 armor bonus, 10 insight, 10 something else, and so on). The DM only dispelled the buffs recently. Epic spellcasting is so crazy.
BillTheManiac
07-23-07, 12:49 PM Oh come on. Who wouldn't want a bunch of clones of themselves doing a ritual of utter death? It's probably in Naruto somewhere...
NinjaPenguin
07-23-07, 12:51 PM The problem here is that the increase duration factor does not stack exponentially, but linearly. When you 'x2' something twice in D&D, it because x3, not x4. So 'doubling' 63 times simply makes it 256 ten-foot cubes.
rob_douglas
07-23-07, 01:17 PM Feredenil is correct, though I think something was lost in translation. He wasn't saying you can't apply the factors more than once, but that they do not have the effect you gave. 2 doublings equals a tripling, but the costs are linear (you don't have to multiply the costs). Also, this uses the Animate seed, which has a duration of 20 rounds base, not the permanent transform seed.

Let's start with duration. Animate has a duration of 20 rounds. Applying the double duration 19 times costs +38, as you have, but only increases the duration 19 times to 400 rounds total, not 1 year.

It is +10 to make it area, and +2 more to make that area be 4-10' cubes, so you need to make that +12. Doubling the area 63 times makes it 64*4 10' cubes, so that is 256 10' cubes.

Range - 300 ft, doubled 20 times is 21*300 = 6300ft.

None of the area can be outside the range, as per usual spell rules. So even if your original calculations had been right, you might have trouble getting all the area within range.

The note about backlash is crucial - you take that damage every round, and even the positive energy plane can't heal you that fast (avg 147 damage per round).

re: the simulacrum ritual "trick" - yeah, that is one of the most easily abused rules in epic spellcasting. I recommend caps on how many and how powerful you can make simulacra. By core rules, you could copy an 80th level wizard at 20th level and get your own 40th level wizard army that can cast spells you couldn't even dream of, for 4000gp and 4000XP per copy.

ROB
archerpwr
07-23-07, 01:27 PM re: the simulacrum ritual "trick" - yeah, that is one of the most easily abused rules in epic spellcasting. I recommend caps on how many and how powerful you can make simulacra. By core rules, you could copy an 80th level wizard at 20th level and get your own 40th level wizard army that can cast spells you couldn't even dream of, for 4000gp and 4000XP per copy.

ROB

The wizard loved to craft as well, so now the other players kept asking me if I would craft them items of wraithstrike after I Arcane strike nova'd the BBEG as a 12 headed hydra. My response was "No. I'm not a crafter wizard and I'm not a blaster mage either."

They really wanted me to be blasting :yuck:

It was fun though. Must hold off from cheese temptations though.
Nezkrul
07-23-07, 08:59 PM I agree with the doublings. But its not "double" in the rules. Its "+100%". Completely different, and works just as I have used it. When you apply the factor you get a new range, duration, area. Apply it again, you are "basically" doubling it, but you aren't, you are adding +100% to it. It isn't a multiplier.

I know about the backlash per round. You can make other epic spells to deal with constant backlash damage (like a permanent duration heal seed, or some such thing). But If thats not your thing, just increase the casting time to a like 30 something days and drop the backlash.
Nezkrul
07-23-07, 09:01 PM There's no factor that would change the Transmutation's seed from instantaneous to 364 days without ad Hoc.
Don't know what ELH you are reading, but Animate seed begins at 20 round duration.
rob_douglas
07-23-07, 10:16 PM You are wrong about your interpretation of the doublings. I refer you to Verdigris Tsunami. Base radius 20'. Increased to 1000' for +196 DC.

Heal is already instantaneous, so you can't "increase" it to Permanent.

ROB
Feredenil
07-24-07, 12:49 PM Don't know what ELH you are reading, but Animate seed begins at 20 round duration.

Yes, I thought I remembered it well, but I checked it again and you're right about that part.

...Forgive any English mistakes, Greek is my mother tongue.
Flymolo
07-24-07, 08:08 PM The way epic spellcasting is intended (and, indeed, how all sample epic spells work) is that "+100%" adds 100% of the original factor. A duration of 20 rounds, with the +100% duration factor, is 40 rounds. Added again, 60 rounds (read: not 80); again: 80 rounds (not 160).

And BTW, IIRC increasing the duration of a healing spell just means that the same amount of healing (say, 20 points) takes place over a longer time than usual (20 points of healing with a duration of 20 rounds is 1 point/round, not 20/round!).
Nezkrul
07-24-07, 08:17 PM hmmmm.. wonder how many additional participants ill need to make this spell work the way I want then... lol
IceFractal
07-25-07, 06:33 AM A demiplane of them. But good news - that's not as hard as you might think.
Psionx
07-26-07, 02:12 PM Or alternatively, find some way to ignore the backlash damage temporarily and use that quirk in the drowning rules. Also feasible, be a troll, take the backlash damage and wait for a long time somewhere.
Prime361
07-30-07, 12:07 AM I don't feel like finding the quote, but all multipliers on D&D terms do funny math(2x and 2x = 3x) and real world numbers would be multiplied as normal (2x and 2x = 4x). Its a real rule, promise.
fnord
07-30-07, 10:24 PM I don't feel like finding the quote, but all multipliers on D&D terms do funny math(2x and 2x = 3x) and real world numbers would be multiplied as normal (2x and 2x = 4x). Its a real rule, promise.
True, sort of. But range and area are D&D, for this purpose. It's irrelevant in this case, any way; the adjustment "increase by 100%", not doubling. Increasing by 100% twice is increasing by 200%, anyway you slice it.
Prime361
07-31-07, 12:53 AM True, sort of. But range and area are D&D, for this purpose. It's irrelevant in this case, any way; the adjustment "increase by 100%", not doubling. Increasing by 100% twice is increasing by 200%, anyway you slice it.

agreed, so I was actually reading the rules for epic spells, and I wish it was more defined like mages in white wolf, lol. That way you have an idea what combos it takes to create certain things, not just a sample spell with little/no explanation how it was made. Is there Eratta for the ELH? If so I need to see if the fixed spell creation at all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nezkrul 07-22-07, 09:06 PM	Pandemonium Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 5 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 196,728,000 ft. Area: 34,633,705,220,000,000,000 10 ft. cubes Duration: 364 days Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 45,000 gp; 2 days; 1,800 XP. Seeds: Animate (DC 25), Factors: Change from Target to Area: 4 10ft. cubes (+10), Double Range 20 times (+40), Double Area 63 times (+126), Double Duration 19 times (+38), Affect Attended Objects (+10), Mitigating Factors: 42d6 Backlash (-42), Burn 20,000 XP (-200) Every Object and ounce of non-living matter, no matter the size, within the area of effect immediately animates and becomes hostile toward everything that moves. This animation lasts until the objects are dealt enough damage to destroy or unanimate them (an animated object's hitpoints, as described in the MM), or 1 year passes on the plane of existence in which this spell is cast. yes, that is enough range and area to animate everything on earth, including 10 miles of atmosphere. props to sky dragon knight for teaching me how to do logarithmic math to figure out the factors.
archerpwr 07-23-07, 12:01 AM	Aside from the rediculus XP cost that's pretty nice. Props to you.
Nezkrul 07-23-07, 02:44 AM	Aside from the rediculus XP cost that's pretty nice. Props to you. Didn't want to make it a ritual, heh :D
Starmage21 07-23-07, 03:15 AM	Didn't want to make it a ritual, heh :D Rituals are OK so long as you consider that the only people youre going to seriously be able to rely on are the other party members for spell slots. In the party of #warrior, #arcanecaster, #healer, #skillmonkey you can really only rely on 2 sets of 9th level spellcasters: The Mage(Wizard, sorcerer, whatever) and the Cleric(too awesome to replace with random splatbook divine casters). I think my spell in the discount epic spell empourium, Deific Might uses the aid of another caster with 9th level spells.
Feredenil 07-23-07, 04:28 AM	You can't 'double' the range, area and duration so many times using the same factors. 'Double' gets 'triple' and 'quadruple' with the DC multiplied each time. For example, to triple the range you need to multiply the DC by two. To quadruple, multiply by three, etc.This is a universal rule for DnD and you can see it everywhere. It is best described in the DM's guide page 246 'adding new abilities' to magic items with 'double' or 'triple' abilities. This is still AdHoc and you need to ask your DM if he lets you increase factors more than 'double' in the first place. For a spell with this range, duration and area, the real DC is more like '34,633,705,220,000,000,000' than it is '5'... unless you can find someone to 'spend' 34 Godzillion XP or take a Teraton of backlash damage to cast it, that is...
IceFractal 07-23-07, 06:17 AM	Actually, pretty much all the factors can be applied multiple times - it would be pretty silly otherwise, as Epic spells wouldn't scale up even as high as normal spells. Nice spell - however:For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is per round. So either ditch the backlash, or get ready to live on the positive energy plane for a year every time you cast this. And actually, it wouldn't hurt to bump the DC of this - no point trying to save on research when the spell itself has such a huge XP cost.
Feredenil 07-23-07, 07:59 AM	True, I don't argue. Unless noted otherwise factors can be applied more than once. There's no factor that would change the Transmutation's seed from instantaneous to 364 days without ad Hoc. The book does say that permanent or instantaneous effects cannot be increased any further, yet, with a respected ad Hoc it 'could' be possible. 'Could' doesn't mean that after this is applied all normal Factors like 'increase duration by 100%' should just be added in any number of times, just like all other seeds, however. (animating a whole planet is a hell of an epic 'adventure' idea, none the less)
archerpwr 07-23-07, 08:26 AM	Rituals are OK so long as you consider that the only people youre going to seriously be able to rely on are the other party members for spell slots. In the party of #warrior, #arcanecaster, #healer, #skillmonkey you can really only rely on 2 sets of 9th level spellcasters: The Mage(Wizard, sorcerer, whatever) and the Cleric(too awesome to replace with random splatbook divine casters). I think my spell in the discount epic spell empourium, Deific Might uses the aid of another caster with 9th level spells. In the group I'm in the last guy to play a wizard made a whole bunch of simulacrums of himself and had them powering his epic spells. The results were patently rediculus. I won't do that though.
Starmage21 07-23-07, 12:31 PM	In the group I'm in the last guy to play a wizard made a whole bunch of simulacrums of himself and had them powering his epic spells. The results were patently rediculus. I won't do that though. you have people like that sometimes who clearly want to abuse the rules. Thats when you go from powergaming to munchkinism. ...maybe doing it once is OK(one simulacrum), but multiple? pffft!
archerpwr 07-23-07, 12:35 PM	you have people like that sometimes who clearly want to abuse the rules. Thats when you go from powergaming to munchkinism. ...maybe doing it once is OK(one simulacrum), but multiple? pffft! The build was something like wizard 25. Little if any prestige classing. According to the DM there were roughly 60 and it cost him the ability to advance a level with all the xp. The guy gave a bunch of rediculus permanant epic buffs to the party (60 armor bonus, 10 insight, 10 something else, and so on). The DM only dispelled the buffs recently. Epic spellcasting is so crazy.
BillTheManiac 07-23-07, 12:49 PM	Oh come on. Who wouldn't want a bunch of clones of themselves doing a ritual of utter death? It's probably in Naruto somewhere...
NinjaPenguin 07-23-07, 12:51 PM	The problem here is that the increase duration factor does not stack exponentially, but linearly. When you 'x2' something twice in D&D, it because x3, not x4. So 'doubling' 63 times simply makes it 256 ten-foot cubes.
rob_douglas 07-23-07, 01:17 PM	Feredenil is correct, though I think something was lost in translation. He wasn't saying you can't apply the factors more than once, but that they do not have the effect you gave. 2 doublings equals a tripling, but the costs are linear (you don't have to multiply the costs). Also, this uses the Animate seed, which has a duration of 20 rounds base, not the permanent transform seed. Let's start with duration. Animate has a duration of 20 rounds. Applying the double duration 19 times costs +38, as you have, but only increases the duration 19 times to 400 rounds total, not 1 year. It is +10 to make it area, and +2 more to make that area be 4-10' cubes, so you need to make that +12. Doubling the area 63 times makes it 644 10' cubes, so that is 256 10' cubes. Range - 300 ft, doubled 20 times is 21300 = 6300ft. None of the area can be outside the range, as per usual spell rules. So even if your original calculations had been right, you might have trouble getting all the area within range. The note about backlash is crucial - you take that damage every round, and even the positive energy plane can't heal you that fast (avg 147 damage per round). re: the simulacrum ritual "trick" - yeah, that is one of the most easily abused rules in epic spellcasting. I recommend caps on how many and how powerful you can make simulacra. By core rules, you could copy an 80th level wizard at 20th level and get your own 40th level wizard army that can cast spells you couldn't even dream of, for 4000gp and 4000XP per copy. ROB
archerpwr 07-23-07, 01:27 PM	re: the simulacrum ritual "trick" - yeah, that is one of the most easily abused rules in epic spellcasting. I recommend caps on how many and how powerful you can make simulacra. By core rules, you could copy an 80th level wizard at 20th level and get your own 40th level wizard army that can cast spells you couldn't even dream of, for 4000gp and 4000XP per copy. ROB The wizard loved to craft as well, so now the other players kept asking me if I would craft them items of wraithstrike after I Arcane strike nova'd the BBEG as a 12 headed hydra. My response was "No. I'm not a crafter wizard and I'm not a blaster mage either." They really wanted me to be blasting :yuck: It was fun though. Must hold off from cheese temptations though.
Nezkrul 07-23-07, 08:59 PM	I agree with the doublings. But its not "double" in the rules. Its "+100%". Completely different, and works just as I have used it. When you apply the factor you get a new range, duration, area. Apply it again, you are "basically" doubling it, but you aren't, you are adding +100% to it. It isn't a multiplier. I know about the backlash per round. You can make other epic spells to deal with constant backlash damage (like a permanent duration heal seed, or some such thing). But If thats not your thing, just increase the casting time to a like 30 something days and drop the backlash.
Nezkrul 07-23-07, 09:01 PM	There's no factor that would change the Transmutation's seed from instantaneous to 364 days without ad Hoc. Don't know what ELH you are reading, but Animate seed begins at 20 round duration.
rob_douglas 07-23-07, 10:16 PM	You are wrong about your interpretation of the doublings. I refer you to Verdigris Tsunami. Base radius 20'. Increased to 1000' for +196 DC. Heal is already instantaneous, so you can't "increase" it to Permanent. ROB
Feredenil 07-24-07, 12:49 PM	Don't know what ELH you are reading, but Animate seed begins at 20 round duration. Yes, I thought I remembered it well, but I checked it again and you're right about that part. ...Forgive any English mistakes, Greek is my mother tongue.
Flymolo 07-24-07, 08:08 PM	The way epic spellcasting is intended (and, indeed, how all sample epic spells work) is that "+100%" adds 100% of the original factor. A duration of 20 rounds, with the +100% duration factor, is 40 rounds. Added again, 60 rounds (read: not 80); again: 80 rounds (not 160). And BTW, IIRC increasing the duration of a healing spell just means that the same amount of healing (say, 20 points) takes place over a longer time than usual (20 points of healing with a duration of 20 rounds is 1 point/round, not 20/round!).
Nezkrul 07-24-07, 08:17 PM	hmmmm.. wonder how many additional participants ill need to make this spell work the way I want then... lol
IceFractal 07-25-07, 06:33 AM	A demiplane of them. But good news - that's not as hard as you might think.
Psionx 07-26-07, 02:12 PM	Or alternatively, find some way to ignore the backlash damage temporarily and use that quirk in the drowning rules. Also feasible, be a troll, take the backlash damage and wait for a long time somewhere.
Prime361 07-30-07, 12:07 AM	I don't feel like finding the quote, but all multipliers on D&D terms do funny math(2x and 2x = 3x) and real world numbers would be multiplied as normal (2x and 2x = 4x). Its a real rule, promise.
fnord 07-30-07, 10:24 PM	I don't feel like finding the quote, but all multipliers on D&D terms do funny math(2x and 2x = 3x) and real world numbers would be multiplied as normal (2x and 2x = 4x). Its a real rule, promise. True, sort of. But range and area are D&D, for this purpose. It's irrelevant in this case, any way; the adjustment "increase by 100%", not doubling. Increasing by 100% twice is increasing by 200%, anyway you slice it.
Prime361 07-31-07, 12:53 AM	True, sort of. But range and area are D&D, for this purpose. It's irrelevant in this case, any way; the adjustment "increase by 100%", not doubling. Increasing by 100% twice is increasing by 200%, anyway you slice it. agreed, so I was actually reading the rules for epic spells, and I wish it was more defined like mages in white wolf, lol. That way you have an idea what combos it takes to create certain things, not just a sample spell with little/no explanation how it was made. Is there Eratta for the ELH? If so I need to see if the fixed spell creation at all.