Paragon Creature [Archive] - Wizards Community

Paragon Creature [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shion
04-27-07, 06:13 PM Whic is the ECL for a Paragon creature?
rob_douglas
04-27-07, 06:28 PM Generally accepted values on these boards run from 15-20. I prefer +15 - it is a harsh enough penalty for lowing all those Hit Dice. You should play test it in your campaign, modify it up or down if challenges and playability in relation to the other players shows it to be too high or low.

ROB
shion
04-27-07, 06:41 PM thanks for the info.
Rutibex
04-28-07, 10:54 PM It's +11, right from the book.
bluemage55
04-29-07, 12:46 AM It's +11, right from the book.

No, it isn't.
Perseus_Stoned
04-29-07, 01:29 AM It's +11, right from the book.

Seconded, the number 11 isn't even referenced in the template.

I'd say the closer to a low level campaign you are, the lower it starts. +15 if you're starting at level 20 or so, +20 if you are starting at say... level 65.
rob_douglas
04-29-07, 01:42 AM There is no real reason to increase the LA at higher levels, as the template grants linear bonuses. Those are only really powerful when the HD are low...beyond 20th level, +15LA is a pretty huge penalty anyway.

As for the straight out of the book answer - I can't tell what the ELH thought the LA was, the published ECL for a paragon Mind Flayer was 26, but I don't have a 3.0 MM, and DMG to check what the ECL of a non-paragon mind flayer was. They didn't use ECL then, and have since redone many of the LAs as well, so I am not sure that those results would even be valid.

Like I said, start with +15, and play with the group. If the paragon is being outperformed in niche areas, grant a few levels quickly to get him up to speed with the group. If he is becoming the star, doing other peoples' things, hold him back the next couple of times people level up.

ROB
Rutibex
04-29-07, 02:19 AM No, it isn't.

Page 156 ELH: Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26

Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26 - Mindflayer ECL 15 = Paragon LA +11
Perseus_Stoned
04-29-07, 03:14 AM Page 156 ELH: Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26

Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26 - Mindflayer ECL 15 = Paragon LA +11

If the game designers intended for the Paragon LA to be set at +11, they would have noted that in the book. As it stands thats a rather clever way of deriving it (and one that should probably be referenced immediately), but it is not RAW, for the purpose of maintaining game legitimacy, and is not balanced either.
bluemage55
04-29-07, 07:57 AM 1. It's a mistake to simply subtract it. Applying the paragon template to different creatures may have greater or fewer benefits, and the LA given was for the paragon mind flayer as a whole.

2. There is absolutely no situation in which LA < CR. Ever. It would be both unbalanced and inconsistent for the paragon template to have a lower LA than its CR.

3. Who do you think you're kidding? Ask yourself if anyone non-spellcaster would choose 11 class levels over this template. Now put away your paragon character sheet and try harder.
runestar
04-29-07, 08:34 AM 2. There is absolutely no situation in which LA < CR. Ever. It would be both unbalanced and inconsistent for the paragon template to have a lower LA than its CR.
Actually, there is one precedent. Phrenic template is LA+2, but cr+3(for higher HD monsters).:D

However, considering that the ELH is 3.0, the only possible explanation I can come up with is that the mindflayer was given a much lower ECL in 3.0 as compared to 3.5. Mind you, this is the same ELH which suggested that force dragons have an ECL=racial HD(implying no LA), so I am guessing that their methods for estimating LA/ECL was probably more inaccurate. Not that the current standard is not without its problems, but at least there is a system in place.:P
bluemage55
04-29-07, 04:47 PM Actually, there is one precedent. Phrenic template is LA+2, but cr+3(for higher HD monsters).:D

Good call, I overlooked that one. I suppose my point is that normally, LA is not less than CR.

Does anyone have 3.0 MM on hand? I get the feeling that mind flayers were at ECL 11 in 3.0, which would explain the ECL 26 they have in the ELH.
rob_douglas
04-30-07, 12:10 AM It was not in the MM in 3.0, it was in the DMG. I gave mine to my nephew, so I can't look, but it could be as low as 8. Until Savage Species came out, the people at Wizards didn't do well with ECL. Take a look at the negative LAs in the ELH! If you want to see why a Paragon is at least +15, look at the Epic Duels thread and search for Lord Bob (and in Let's Duel for his sheet).

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shion 04-27-07, 06:13 PM	Whic is the ECL for a Paragon creature?
rob_douglas 04-27-07, 06:28 PM	Generally accepted values on these boards run from 15-20. I prefer +15 - it is a harsh enough penalty for lowing all those Hit Dice. You should play test it in your campaign, modify it up or down if challenges and playability in relation to the other players shows it to be too high or low. ROB
shion 04-27-07, 06:41 PM	thanks for the info.
Rutibex 04-28-07, 10:54 PM	It's +11, right from the book.
bluemage55 04-29-07, 12:46 AM	It's +11, right from the book. No, it isn't.
Perseus_Stoned 04-29-07, 01:29 AM	It's +11, right from the book. Seconded, the number 11 isn't even referenced in the template. I'd say the closer to a low level campaign you are, the lower it starts. +15 if you're starting at level 20 or so, +20 if you are starting at say... level 65.
rob_douglas 04-29-07, 01:42 AM	There is no real reason to increase the LA at higher levels, as the template grants linear bonuses. Those are only really powerful when the HD are low...beyond 20th level, +15LA is a pretty huge penalty anyway. As for the straight out of the book answer - I can't tell what the ELH thought the LA was, the published ECL for a paragon Mind Flayer was 26, but I don't have a 3.0 MM, and DMG to check what the ECL of a non-paragon mind flayer was. They didn't use ECL then, and have since redone many of the LAs as well, so I am not sure that those results would even be valid. Like I said, start with +15, and play with the group. If the paragon is being outperformed in niche areas, grant a few levels quickly to get him up to speed with the group. If he is becoming the star, doing other peoples' things, hold him back the next couple of times people level up. ROB
Rutibex 04-29-07, 02:19 AM	No, it isn't. Page 156 ELH: Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26 Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26 - Mindflayer ECL 15 = Paragon LA +11
Perseus_Stoned 04-29-07, 03:14 AM	Page 156 ELH: Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26 Paragon Mindflayer ECL 26 - Mindflayer ECL 15 = Paragon LA +11 If the game designers intended for the Paragon LA to be set at +11, they would have noted that in the book. As it stands thats a rather clever way of deriving it (and one that should probably be referenced immediately), but it is not RAW, for the purpose of maintaining game legitimacy, and is not balanced either.
bluemage55 04-29-07, 07:57 AM	1. It's a mistake to simply subtract it. Applying the paragon template to different creatures may have greater or fewer benefits, and the LA given was for the paragon mind flayer as a whole. 2. There is absolutely no situation in which LA < CR. Ever. It would be both unbalanced and inconsistent for the paragon template to have a lower LA than its CR. 3. Who do you think you're kidding? Ask yourself if anyone non-spellcaster would choose 11 class levels over this template. Now put away your paragon character sheet and try harder.
runestar 04-29-07, 08:34 AM	2. There is absolutely no situation in which LA < CR. Ever. It would be both unbalanced and inconsistent for the paragon template to have a lower LA than its CR. Actually, there is one precedent. Phrenic template is LA+2, but cr+3(for higher HD monsters).:D However, considering that the ELH is 3.0, the only possible explanation I can come up with is that the mindflayer was given a much lower ECL in 3.0 as compared to 3.5. Mind you, this is the same ELH which suggested that force dragons have an ECL=racial HD(implying no LA), so I am guessing that their methods for estimating LA/ECL was probably more inaccurate. Not that the current standard is not without its problems, but at least there is a system in place.:P
bluemage55 04-29-07, 04:47 PM	Actually, there is one precedent. Phrenic template is LA+2, but cr+3(for higher HD monsters).:D Good call, I overlooked that one. I suppose my point is that normally, LA is not less than CR. Does anyone have 3.0 MM on hand? I get the feeling that mind flayers were at ECL 11 in 3.0, which would explain the ECL 26 they have in the ELH.
rob_douglas 04-30-07, 12:10 AM	It was not in the MM in 3.0, it was in the DMG. I gave mine to my nephew, so I can't look, but it could be as low as 8. Until Savage Species came out, the people at Wizards didn't do well with ECL. Take a look at the negative LAs in the ELH! If you want to see why a Paragon is at least +15, look at the Epic Duels thread and search for Lord Bob (and in Let's Duel for his sheet). ROB