PEACH a revised Deathward? [Archive] - Wizards Community

PEACH a revised Deathward? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Old_Troll
02-27-08, 01:30 PM We restructured Deathward recently (sooo broken) so that the caster can cast it in its traditional manner but for rounds per level, or cast it with a duration of 10min/Level but it acts as ablative armor points. (1+1/2lvls). The costs are:

1pt/negative level

1pt/ability point drained

1pt/level of negative energy type save-or-die spell

1pt/10pts of negative energy damage

If not enough points to stop a save-or-die spell, subtract remaining armor points from spell DC.

It has not been play tested yet, but constructive criticism welcome.
Old_Troll
02-28-08, 02:27 PM A moment of memory lapse. I'll go post this on the appropriate thread now...
sin_vraal
03-03-08, 09:45 PM YES! any change to deathward is good hehehe

Some of the things I was thinking...

Give it a damage resistance to negative levels / ability damage or drain, or plain vanilla negative damage.
-blocks up to 4 neg levels / round?
-dr 5 on ability damage?
-dr as per energy resistance on vanila damage?

death spells are still prevented, but the damage from them is not (destruction still hits for 10d6 or Finger hits for 3d6+25). I think thats probably the most important part of death ward.... NOT dying from cheese spells.
malignor
03-04-08, 01:12 PM +10 to all saves versus death effects
Still impervious to negative levels (hey, so are undead and constructs).

Ever consider that becoming a lich, vampire or ghost is overpowered since they essentially get 24/7 death ward?
sin_vraal
03-04-08, 04:52 PM Yea, the neg level thing is really the most annoying thing that it blocks... however what about monsters like an atropal (elh cr30 undead baby)... all it does is negative energy... how can it even qualify for cr30 with negative energy
malignor
03-04-08, 06:31 PM Yea, the neg level thing is really the most annoying thing that it blocks... however what about monsters like an atropal (elh cr30 undead baby)... all it does is negative energy... how can it even qualify for cr30 with negative energyYou mean this? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) Well firstly, the picture is awesome from sheer vileness. Secondly, they do Con damage as well. Thirdly, it's sad when a CR 1/4 zombie or tiny animated object can't even be hurt by it directly (at first glance).

But most importantly, the Atropal can animate dead, create undead and create greater undead. Such things like Shadows (with strength drain) and Devourers can also attack via more mundane means. Also, Dispel Magic for those annoying death wards, and Cone of Cold if that doesn't work. Also, being large and with 10' reach, it can still grapple medium characters with impunity ( and has a respectable +53 bonus) and has a strength of 43. A wise DM would swap out a feat for Improved Unarmed Strike, allowing the giant baby to strangle your heroes with its umbilical cord (1d4+16 per successful grapple check) while it's pre-made horde of undead join in the dogpile. Fun times, fun times.
sin_vraal
03-05-08, 08:41 PM You mean this? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) Well firstly, the picture is awesome from sheer vileness. Secondly, they do Con damage as well. Thirdly, it's sad when a CR 1/4 zombie or tiny animated object can't even be hurt by it directly (at first glance).

But most importantly, the Atropal can animate dead, create undead and create greater undead. Such things like Shadows (with strength drain) and Devourers can also attack via more mundane means. Also, Dispel Magic for those annoying death wards, and Cone of Cold if that doesn't work. Also, being large and with 10' reach, it can still grapple medium characters with impunity ( and has a respectable +53 bonus) and has a strength of 43. A wise DM would swap out a feat for Improved Unarmed Strike, allowing the giant baby to strangle your heroes with its umbilical cord (1d4+16 per successful grapple check) while it's pre-made horde of undead join in the dogpile. Fun times, fun times.

well Problems with shadows and what not is that they are cr 3 monsters.... if IF they can somehow get around the deathward part (they strength drain via negative energy) ... while its true the atropal does have a con drain attack... I dont think its by any means dangerous (any power or spell that turns you undead or construct auto wins this encounter)... the greater dispelling is the biggest joke tho with the creature... Greater dispel magic caps at +20 ...so if you have a caster level of 30. you basically cant be dispelled.. short of every encounter running with epic dispel.

and freedom of movement negates the whole grapple thing.

problems problems problems!
malignor
03-06-08, 12:10 PM Well, when you get right down to it, this is the whole problem of the magic system in general: With a handful of preparatory spells, an epic spellcaster is essentially impervious to all forms of attack. A few Multispell feats later, this can happen all on the fly, in a single round.

If this is such a difficult problem, then it's a DM mental block. True, it's a game design problem. However, it's not unsolvable. In fact it need not even be solved by rewriting rules, spells, effects and so on. Instead, it's solvable with proper tailoring of encounters and situations. Especially by injecting a little bit of reasonable behavior into NPCs

So the PCs can prep? Great. So can the NPCs. The Atropal has an Int of 28 and Wis of 22... you think he sits there, unequipped, stagnant and bored, awaiting the PCs' arrival without taking precautions? Death Ward is available to a few classes by then, so pretty much any group of class-progression races that shows up to challenge this splendid undead monstrosity stands a chance of being well-protected with such spells as Death Ward.

So what's an Atropal to do?

Well, a few thousand years of traversing the planes at a whim, conversing with mentally competent undead he created and so on, ends up with a solid bit of gear (see treasure; +42 major magic items), and a small army of undead to help use it all. Sure, that ghast may be only CR3, but it's another set of hands, and another set of actions for the round. Then there are the Devourers with all their Lesser Planar Allies, which also weigh in. Then, lastly, there's that Bluff +85, Diplomacy +97, and Intimidate +91. An act of diplomacy can be done as a full-round action at -10... so a diplomacy check of +87... on average, it can turn hostiles friendly (or indifferents into fanatics) as a full round action by rolling a 3. Pretty much any NPC is the cosmos bows down to this thing, willingly, because it's just so darn persuasive! Sure this does nothing against PCs (by virtue of social skills vs. PC rules), but you can be guaranteed that, considering the (in game) reality of Death Ward and other such magicks, any Atropal with half a brain (again, Int28 and Wis22) and a few hours of prep (plane shift to X, greater teleport to XY, turn lesser god Z into a buddy, all in 3 rounds) can result in the PCs battle against an Atropal also being a battle against some of the greatest forces in the cosmos.

Atropal Organization: Solitary
Atropal's real Organization: Solitary, plus 60HD worth of mindless undead (thrall), plus 30d6 ghouls plus 40d6 ghasts plus 25d6 mummies plus 100d6 shadows plus 100d6 specters plus 100d6 wraiths plus 20d6 devourers plus 15d6 neutral evil outsiders HD1-6, plus 20d6 lawful evil outsiders HD1-6, plus 1d4 prismatic dragons, plus 12d6 lesser gods.
DoveArrow
03-06-08, 12:53 PM I don't know. It seems a little complicated. Personally, if I were going to rewrite the spell, I would give the spell's recipient a certain amount of spell resistance versus death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects. Say SR 20 + 1/2 caster level. I think that still makes the spell useful without nerfing it so badly that nobody would consider casting it.
BillTheManiac
03-06-08, 04:27 PM that formula doesn't scale - might want to make it do so. SR=10+CL?
DoveArrow
03-06-08, 04:46 PM I don't understand what you mean when you say it doesn't scale. As far as I can tell, your formula just goes up a little faster than mine. Then again, I'm sort've new to the whole epic level thing, so I'm not sure... does punching spell resistance work differently at epic levels?
malignor
03-06-08, 04:49 PM Well (if it has to be done), why not just bust DW up into 3 spells:

- Death Ward (resist death effects; always makes saves versus save-or-die effects)
- Cosmic Energy Resistance (energy resistance versus either negative energy, such as from chill touch, or divine energy such as from flame strike; scales like the regular Energy Resistance)
- Energy Retention (immune to negative levels)

Now it takes 3 spell slots and 3 castings to get the effect of ye olde DW.
BillTheManiac
03-07-08, 07:11 AM I don't understand what you mean when you say it doesn't scale. As far as I can tell, your formula just goes up a little faster than mine. Then again, I'm sort've new to the whole epic level thing, so I'm not sure... does punching spell resistance work differently at epic levels?

Alright. Two caster level 20s. One casts death ward, SR 30. 10+ to penetrate.

Two level 30s. One casts death ward. SR 35. 5+ to penetrate.

Two level 40s. One casts death ward. SR 40. 0+ to penetrate.
(your system. It gets worse and worse with level)

On my system, it would remain at 10+ for the entire game. Any caster level increase one player uses, the other could copy, keeping it at 10+.
DoveArrow
03-07-08, 09:35 AM Ah. Good point.
DoveArrow
03-11-08, 02:11 PM By the way, what does PEACH mean?
rob_douglas
03-11-08, 04:35 PM Please Evaluate and Critique Honestly.

Just a request for feedback.

ROB
DoveArrow
03-11-08, 05:21 PM Just a request for feedback.

JARFF?

Thanks for the answer. This thread can now resume its regularly scheduled program.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Old_Troll 02-27-08, 01:30 PM	We restructured Deathward recently (sooo broken) so that the caster can cast it in its traditional manner but for rounds per level, or cast it with a duration of 10min/Level but it acts as ablative armor points. (1+1/2lvls). The costs are: 1pt/negative level 1pt/ability point drained 1pt/level of negative energy type save-or-die spell 1pt/10pts of negative energy damage If not enough points to stop a save-or-die spell, subtract remaining armor points from spell DC. It has not been play tested yet, but constructive criticism welcome.
Old_Troll 02-28-08, 02:27 PM	A moment of memory lapse. I'll go post this on the appropriate thread now...
sin_vraal 03-03-08, 09:45 PM	YES! any change to deathward is good hehehe Some of the things I was thinking... Give it a damage resistance to negative levels / ability damage or drain, or plain vanilla negative damage. -blocks up to 4 neg levels / round? -dr 5 on ability damage? -dr as per energy resistance on vanila damage? death spells are still prevented, but the damage from them is not (destruction still hits for 10d6 or Finger hits for 3d6+25). I think thats probably the most important part of death ward.... NOT dying from cheese spells.
malignor 03-04-08, 01:12 PM	+10 to all saves versus death effects Still impervious to negative levels (hey, so are undead and constructs). Ever consider that becoming a lich, vampire or ghost is overpowered since they essentially get 24/7 death ward?
sin_vraal 03-04-08, 04:52 PM	Yea, the neg level thing is really the most annoying thing that it blocks... however what about monsters like an atropal (elh cr30 undead baby)... all it does is negative energy... how can it even qualify for cr30 with negative energy
malignor 03-04-08, 06:31 PM	Yea, the neg level thing is really the most annoying thing that it blocks... however what about monsters like an atropal (elh cr30 undead baby)... all it does is negative energy... how can it even qualify for cr30 with negative energyYou mean this? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) Well firstly, the picture is awesome from sheer vileness. Secondly, they do Con damage as well. Thirdly, it's sad when a CR 1/4 zombie or tiny animated object can't even be hurt by it directly (at first glance). But most importantly, the Atropal can animate dead, create undead and create greater undead. Such things like Shadows (with strength drain) and Devourers can also attack via more mundane means. Also, Dispel Magic for those annoying death wards, and Cone of Cold if that doesn't work. Also, being large and with 10' reach, it can still grapple medium characters with impunity ( and has a respectable +53 bonus) and has a strength of 43. A wise DM would swap out a feat for Improved Unarmed Strike, allowing the giant baby to strangle your heroes with its umbilical cord (1d4+16 per successful grapple check) while it's pre-made horde of undead join in the dogpile. Fun times, fun times.
sin_vraal 03-05-08, 08:41 PM	You mean this? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) Well firstly, the picture is awesome from sheer vileness. Secondly, they do Con damage as well. Thirdly, it's sad when a CR 1/4 zombie or tiny animated object can't even be hurt by it directly (at first glance). But most importantly, the Atropal can animate dead, create undead and create greater undead. Such things like Shadows (with strength drain) and Devourers can also attack via more mundane means. Also, Dispel Magic for those annoying death wards, and Cone of Cold if that doesn't work. Also, being large and with 10' reach, it can still grapple medium characters with impunity ( and has a respectable +53 bonus) and has a strength of 43. A wise DM would swap out a feat for Improved Unarmed Strike, allowing the giant baby to strangle your heroes with its umbilical cord (1d4+16 per successful grapple check) while it's pre-made horde of undead join in the dogpile. Fun times, fun times. well Problems with shadows and what not is that they are cr 3 monsters.... if IF they can somehow get around the deathward part (they strength drain via negative energy) ... while its true the atropal does have a con drain attack... I dont think its by any means dangerous (any power or spell that turns you undead or construct auto wins this encounter)... the greater dispelling is the biggest joke tho with the creature... Greater dispel magic caps at +20 ...so if you have a caster level of 30. you basically cant be dispelled.. short of every encounter running with epic dispel. and freedom of movement negates the whole grapple thing. problems problems problems!
malignor 03-06-08, 12:10 PM	Well, when you get right down to it, this is the whole problem of the magic system in general: With a handful of preparatory spells, an epic spellcaster is essentially impervious to all forms of attack. A few Multispell feats later, this can happen all on the fly, in a single round. If this is such a difficult problem, then it's a DM mental block. True, it's a game design problem. However, it's not unsolvable. In fact it need not even be solved by rewriting rules, spells, effects and so on. Instead, it's solvable with proper tailoring of encounters and situations. Especially by injecting a little bit of reasonable behavior into NPCs So the PCs can prep? Great. So can the NPCs. The Atropal has an Int of 28 and Wis of 22... you think he sits there, unequipped, stagnant and bored, awaiting the PCs' arrival without taking precautions? Death Ward is available to a few classes by then, so pretty much any group of class-progression races that shows up to challenge this splendid undead monstrosity stands a chance of being well-protected with such spells as Death Ward. So what's an Atropal to do? Well, a few thousand years of traversing the planes at a whim, conversing with mentally competent undead he created and so on, ends up with a solid bit of gear (see treasure; +42 major magic items), and a small army of undead to help use it all. Sure, that ghast may be only CR3, but it's another set of hands, and another set of actions for the round. Then there are the Devourers with all their Lesser Planar Allies, which also weigh in. Then, lastly, there's that Bluff +85, Diplomacy +97, and Intimidate +91. An act of diplomacy can be done as a full-round action at -10... so a diplomacy check of +87... on average, it can turn hostiles friendly (or indifferents into fanatics) as a full round action by rolling a 3. Pretty much any NPC is the cosmos bows down to this thing, willingly, because it's just so darn persuasive! Sure this does nothing against PCs (by virtue of social skills vs. PC rules), but you can be guaranteed that, considering the (in game) reality of Death Ward and other such magicks, any Atropal with half a brain (again, Int28 and Wis22) and a few hours of prep (plane shift to X, greater teleport to XY, turn lesser god Z into a buddy, all in 3 rounds) can result in the PCs battle against an Atropal also being a battle against some of the greatest forces in the cosmos. Atropal Organization: Solitary Atropal's real Organization: Solitary, plus 60HD worth of mindless undead (thrall), plus 30d6 ghouls plus 40d6 ghasts plus 25d6 mummies plus 100d6 shadows plus 100d6 specters plus 100d6 wraiths plus 20d6 devourers plus 15d6 neutral evil outsiders HD1-6, plus 20d6 lawful evil outsiders HD1-6, plus 1d4 prismatic dragons, plus 12d6 lesser gods.
DoveArrow 03-06-08, 12:53 PM	I don't know. It seems a little complicated. Personally, if I were going to rewrite the spell, I would give the spell's recipient a certain amount of spell resistance versus death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects. Say SR 20 + 1/2 caster level. I think that still makes the spell useful without nerfing it so badly that nobody would consider casting it.
BillTheManiac 03-06-08, 04:27 PM	that formula doesn't scale - might want to make it do so. SR=10+CL?
DoveArrow 03-06-08, 04:46 PM	I don't understand what you mean when you say it doesn't scale. As far as I can tell, your formula just goes up a little faster than mine. Then again, I'm sort've new to the whole epic level thing, so I'm not sure... does punching spell resistance work differently at epic levels?
malignor 03-06-08, 04:49 PM	Well (if it has to be done), why not just bust DW up into 3 spells: - Death Ward (resist death effects; always makes saves versus save-or-die effects) - Cosmic Energy Resistance (energy resistance versus either negative energy, such as from chill touch, or divine energy such as from flame strike; scales like the regular Energy Resistance) - Energy Retention (immune to negative levels) Now it takes 3 spell slots and 3 castings to get the effect of ye olde DW.
BillTheManiac 03-07-08, 07:11 AM	I don't understand what you mean when you say it doesn't scale. As far as I can tell, your formula just goes up a little faster than mine. Then again, I'm sort've new to the whole epic level thing, so I'm not sure... does punching spell resistance work differently at epic levels? Alright. Two caster level 20s. One casts death ward, SR 30. 10+ to penetrate. Two level 30s. One casts death ward. SR 35. 5+ to penetrate. Two level 40s. One casts death ward. SR 40. 0+ to penetrate. (your system. It gets worse and worse with level) On my system, it would remain at 10+ for the entire game. Any caster level increase one player uses, the other could copy, keeping it at 10+.
DoveArrow 03-07-08, 09:35 AM	Ah. Good point.
DoveArrow 03-11-08, 02:11 PM	By the way, what does PEACH mean?
rob_douglas 03-11-08, 04:35 PM	Please Evaluate and Critique Honestly. Just a request for feedback. ROB
DoveArrow 03-11-08, 05:21 PM	Just a request for feedback. JARFF? Thanks for the answer. This thread can now resume its regularly scheduled program.