Penultimate Arcane Caster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Penultimate Arcane Caster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aktariel
04-28-07, 07:37 AM For all of your Severe Brokenation needs... I offer what I have and ask you for your suggestions.

Please note that this is a though experiment and not an actual player [thank God] and if he were, he'd be starting at the "finished" level, not level 1.

"Elminister? That old fool? Sure I could whip his a**. But that would be counterproductive."

I present to you the penultimate:

male elven Sorceror 50/Wizard 50/Ultimate Magus 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5/Netherese Arcanist [?] 10 [5?]/Elven High Mage 10/Spellfire Channeler 10/Planeswalker 10 [MotP]

I want this man to do it all. I mean, all. If he can't do it now, let me know what I should add to make him do it all. Think... Larloch. Except broken. Knows every spell, can cast most of them on any given day.

Mystra's Consort? Mystra's instructor? Who knows.

It goes almost without saying that Faerun is where I'm drawing most of my magic and prestige classes from, but anything from anywhere is allowed, because he's just that broken.

Any templates I should add? Perhaps the Magister template and the Chosen of Mystra template? [Where can I find the latter, by the way?]

And of course he's read the Nether Scrolls....

So I come to you asking, What do you think? What can I add? Do you need more information?, and apologizing for what might be seen as a very rambling post.
Senevri
04-28-07, 08:27 AM ...You lose, what, fifty, sixty caster levels on both sides and you don't even have Cosmic Connection to make up for the lack. Frankly, you'd be kinda weak against anything of appropriate CR. all you have going for you is lots of levels.
Aktariel
04-28-07, 10:17 AM So make it better. :D

Seriously. IDHMBIFOM at the moment, so I can't optimize at all at all.

EDIT: What's cosmic connection?
Darkwolf71
04-28-07, 11:15 AM Penultimate? Why would I want second best? I want top of the line baby!
Aktariel
04-28-07, 11:58 AM So do I.

o_0 I hate my brain sometimes... Maybe I should treat it right and go to bed.

Thanks for the point-out, now to see if I can fix it.

Aside from my semantic error, any other comments?
Bernat
04-28-07, 12:12 PM :teach: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522499

Specially number I and V :).
Senevri
04-28-07, 01:24 PM :teach: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522499

Specially number I and V :).
Actually, not quite as strict on epics, since you're getting max. spellcasting anyway. But that means you can lose a few levels, not that you can lose sixty levels, or whatever.

Basically, go in to Ultimate Magus as something like Wiz4/Sor1, with Practiced Spellcaster picked for Sorcerer. You should come out as Wiz 13/Sor9 at level 15. Now you pick Practiced Spellcaster for Wizard. All PrCs henceforth should increase your Wizard levels. You will pick 7 levels of Cosmic Descryer on epics, although you lose 4 levels on it, gaining Cosmic Connection is SO worth it. You really should avoid losing more CLs henceforth, and if you pick Spell Power twice, you'll have a Caster Level equal to you HD, anyway.

Improved Spell Capacity is worth it just because, you will around level 45 have gained the ability to get Quickened Time Stop, Disjunction as an SLA usable 1/round. Single Multispell will mean you can cast both of these buffs every single round. OTOH, if Epic Spellcasting is allowed, you should be completely disgusting at that point, anyway.
Luis_Dragunov
04-29-07, 03:03 PM Stupid question but... what's Cosmic Connection?
Rickiel
04-29-07, 03:43 PM Sorceror 50/Wizard 50/Ultimate Magus 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5/Netherese Arcanist [?] 10 [5?]/Elven High Mage 10/Spellfire Channeler 10/Planeswalker 10 [MotP]?

That's IT?!

Personally, I'd prefer good-ole fashioned Sorcerer 5/Wizard 5/ Ultimate Magus 150/ Archmage 5.

But that's just me :D
Senevri
04-29-07, 05:33 PM I'm betting the epic progression to Ultimate Magus looks way too much like the one for Mystic Theurge.
Besides, you should ALWAYS have seven levels of Cosmic Descryer in a silly-high level caster build.
Rickiel
05-02-07, 12:19 AM Actually, the Epic progression for Ultimate Magus would include it's very nice class feature, Arcane Power! Meaning, more and more caster levels! Not to mention a lil picking up of Epic Spellcasting, some Epic Leadership for that nice 'Attack my flying monkeys attack!' feel...

Though a seven level dip into Cosmic Descryer would be... Meh I guess. Then again I've never played with said Epic class so what do I know?
Yodasatomicweed
05-02-07, 12:27 AM Cosmic Descryer allows you to sacrifice hit points to boost your caster level. Very ugly when you have lots of spare hit points. Holy Word-brand cheese whiz, anyone?
Rickiel
05-02-07, 12:28 AM And since when do spellcasters have spare hit points?

Well I guess if you're undead then you do.
NoldorForce
05-02-07, 12:48 AM They have lots of spare hit points with regeneration and Refreshment. You don't really need to burn that many hit points per spell to get amazing results with the Words of Alignment. And by ECL 28...everyone tends to have a lot of hit points.
Yodasatomicweed
05-02-07, 12:56 AM Dude, at the level you're talking about...cast a spell that grants you a +30 bonus to Con. 15 (Con bonus) x 150 (level) = 2,250 extra hit points. Sacrificed all at once, you know have a +450 bonus to caster level. So unless your opponent has at least 591 HD and a SR of at least 602, it dies. No save. Possibly throw in an epic dispel right before that in case it is warded against any Words of Alignment, as Noldorforce put it.
bluemage55
05-02-07, 01:42 AM Cosmic Descryer allows you to sacrifice hit points to boost your caster level. Very ugly when you have lots of spare hit points. Holy Word-brand cheese whiz, anyone?

Which is why I errated it following in the footsteps of similar 3.5 errata: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=702299

The maximum bonus is thus equal to your class level. No more cheese.
Senevri
05-02-07, 06:18 AM Mmh... You do realize you now lose 4 levels to momentarily gain only 7? That's almost as bad as the auto-X-spell nerf in Complete Arcana. Basically, if you do it like that, the class needs to lose WAY less CL to stay attractive.
Aluroon
05-02-07, 08:47 AM Mmh... You do realize you now lose 4 levels to momentarily gain only 7? That's almost as bad as the auto-X-spell nerf in Complete Arcana. Basically, if you do it like that, the class needs to lose WAY less CL to stay attractive.

It should probably be buffed up to 3/4th caster progression.
Senevri
05-02-07, 12:17 PM Sounds roughly appropriate.
bluemage55
05-02-07, 05:25 PM Actually, given that the other abilities of the Cosmic Descryer have low impact on the epic game, and that it only gets 1/5 bonus feat progression and has ugly feat prereqs, I'd be inclined to give it full casting progression.
Senevri
05-02-07, 06:49 PM Perhaps. They do get the boosted HD summons - I haven't done the math on those, however, if that can actually get dangerous instead of just okay.
bluemage55
05-03-07, 02:13 AM The increased HD ability doesn't scale quickly enough.

The Cosmic Descryer gets it once every 4 levels, which amounts to +1 HD per level. Outsider HD are only worth 1 CR/2 HD, so even if the Cosmic Descryer summons/calls single creatures, the summoned/called creatures still become less and less useful.

At best, the ability allows a dedicated summoner to reduce the rate at which their summoned allies become useless.
Rickiel
05-03-07, 12:06 PM So the Cosmic Descryer needs to be revised in order to meet the modern adventurer's needs! :)
Aktariel
05-10-07, 07:47 PM Alright - I finally read the Cosmic Descryer class...

And I can certainly see why that would be pretty amazing.

Any suggestions for a really good solid superpowered arcane build?

Should I throw in Warlock and Eldritch Theurge?

Any good templates? Classes? Anything?

Sky's the limit. Within thousand-level reason, of course. Anything past 500 is just... overkill.
Zelck
05-13-07, 03:00 PM The best arcane build includes 10 levels of Rainbow Servant. -4 caster levels for access to all cleric spells and 2x epic spell slots? Sign me up!
strenoth
05-14-07, 10:17 AM And if youa re headed for Cheesy Goodness anyway, at those levels you should really throw in 10+ levels of Eldritch Master, from Dragon Magazine 280
bluemage55
05-14-07, 11:51 AM The best arcane build includes 10 levels of Rainbow Servant. -4 caster levels for access to all cleric spells and 2x epic spell slots? Sign me up!

And if it's that obvious that it's cheese, then you shoud know better. :rolleyes:

The class was certainly not designed with Epic Spellcasting in mind (remember that WotC severely undercut the Mystic Theruge because of Epic Spellcasting), and any cleric spells that the Rainbow Servant can cast should be cast as arcane spells (as certain dragons cast cleric spells).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aktariel 04-28-07, 07:37 AM	For all of your Severe Brokenation needs... I offer what I have and ask you for your suggestions. Please note that this is a though experiment and not an actual player [thank God] and if he were, he'd be starting at the "finished" level, not level 1. "Elminister? That old fool? Sure I could whip his a**. But that would be counterproductive." I present to you the penultimate: male elven Sorceror 50/Wizard 50/Ultimate Magus 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5/Netherese Arcanist [?] 10 [5?]/Elven High Mage 10/Spellfire Channeler 10/Planeswalker 10 [MotP] I want this man to do it all. I mean, all. If he can't do it now, let me know what I should add to make him do it all. Think... Larloch. Except broken. Knows every spell, can cast most of them on any given day. Mystra's Consort? Mystra's instructor? Who knows. It goes almost without saying that Faerun is where I'm drawing most of my magic and prestige classes from, but anything from anywhere is allowed, because he's just that broken. Any templates I should add? Perhaps the Magister template and the Chosen of Mystra template? [Where can I find the latter, by the way?] And of course he's read the Nether Scrolls.... So I come to you asking, What do you think? What can I add? Do you need more information?, and apologizing for what might be seen as a very rambling post.
Senevri 04-28-07, 08:27 AM	...You lose, what, fifty, sixty caster levels on both sides and you don't even have Cosmic Connection to make up for the lack. Frankly, you'd be kinda weak against anything of appropriate CR. all you have going for you is lots of levels.
Aktariel 04-28-07, 10:17 AM	So make it better. :D Seriously. IDHMBIFOM at the moment, so I can't optimize at all at all. EDIT: What's cosmic connection?
Darkwolf71 04-28-07, 11:15 AM	Penultimate? Why would I want second best? I want top of the line baby!
Aktariel 04-28-07, 11:58 AM	So do I. o_0 I hate my brain sometimes... Maybe I should treat it right and go to bed. Thanks for the point-out, now to see if I can fix it. Aside from my semantic error, any other comments?
Bernat 04-28-07, 12:12 PM	:teach: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522499 Specially number I and V :).
Senevri 04-28-07, 01:24 PM	:teach: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522499 Specially number I and V :). Actually, not quite as strict on epics, since you're getting max. spellcasting anyway. But that means you can lose a few levels, not that you can lose sixty levels, or whatever. Basically, go in to Ultimate Magus as something like Wiz4/Sor1, with Practiced Spellcaster picked for Sorcerer. You should come out as Wiz 13/Sor9 at level 15. Now you pick Practiced Spellcaster for Wizard. All PrCs henceforth should increase your Wizard levels. You will pick 7 levels of Cosmic Descryer on epics, although you lose 4 levels on it, gaining Cosmic Connection is SO worth it. You really should avoid losing more CLs henceforth, and if you pick Spell Power twice, you'll have a Caster Level equal to you HD, anyway. Improved Spell Capacity is worth it just because, you will around level 45 have gained the ability to get Quickened Time Stop, Disjunction as an SLA usable 1/round. Single Multispell will mean you can cast both of these buffs every single round. OTOH, if Epic Spellcasting is allowed, you should be completely disgusting at that point, anyway.
Luis_Dragunov 04-29-07, 03:03 PM	Stupid question but... what's Cosmic Connection?
Rickiel 04-29-07, 03:43 PM	Sorceror 50/Wizard 50/Ultimate Magus 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5/Netherese Arcanist [?] 10 [5?]/Elven High Mage 10/Spellfire Channeler 10/Planeswalker 10 [MotP]? That's IT?! Personally, I'd prefer good-ole fashioned Sorcerer 5/Wizard 5/ Ultimate Magus 150/ Archmage 5. But that's just me :D
Senevri 04-29-07, 05:33 PM	I'm betting the epic progression to Ultimate Magus looks way too much like the one for Mystic Theurge. Besides, you should ALWAYS have seven levels of Cosmic Descryer in a silly-high level caster build.
Rickiel 05-02-07, 12:19 AM	Actually, the Epic progression for Ultimate Magus would include it's very nice class feature, Arcane Power! Meaning, more and more caster levels! Not to mention a lil picking up of Epic Spellcasting, some Epic Leadership for that nice 'Attack my flying monkeys attack!' feel... Though a seven level dip into Cosmic Descryer would be... Meh I guess. Then again I've never played with said Epic class so what do I know?
Yodasatomicweed 05-02-07, 12:27 AM	Cosmic Descryer allows you to sacrifice hit points to boost your caster level. Very ugly when you have lots of spare hit points. Holy Word-brand cheese whiz, anyone?
Rickiel 05-02-07, 12:28 AM	And since when do spellcasters have spare hit points? Well I guess if you're undead then you do.
NoldorForce 05-02-07, 12:48 AM	They have lots of spare hit points with regeneration and Refreshment. You don't really need to burn that many hit points per spell to get amazing results with the Words of Alignment. And by ECL 28...everyone tends to have a lot of hit points.
Yodasatomicweed 05-02-07, 12:56 AM	Dude, at the level you're talking about...cast a spell that grants you a +30 bonus to Con. 15 (Con bonus) x 150 (level) = 2,250 extra hit points. Sacrificed all at once, you know have a +450 bonus to caster level. So unless your opponent has at least 591 HD and a SR of at least 602, it dies. No save. Possibly throw in an epic dispel right before that in case it is warded against any Words of Alignment, as Noldorforce put it.
bluemage55 05-02-07, 01:42 AM	Cosmic Descryer allows you to sacrifice hit points to boost your caster level. Very ugly when you have lots of spare hit points. Holy Word-brand cheese whiz, anyone? Which is why I errated it following in the footsteps of similar 3.5 errata: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=702299 The maximum bonus is thus equal to your class level. No more cheese.
Senevri 05-02-07, 06:18 AM	Mmh... You do realize you now lose 4 levels to momentarily gain only 7? That's almost as bad as the auto-X-spell nerf in Complete Arcana. Basically, if you do it like that, the class needs to lose WAY less CL to stay attractive.
Aluroon 05-02-07, 08:47 AM	Mmh... You do realize you now lose 4 levels to momentarily gain only 7? That's almost as bad as the auto-X-spell nerf in Complete Arcana. Basically, if you do it like that, the class needs to lose WAY less CL to stay attractive. It should probably be buffed up to 3/4th caster progression.
Senevri 05-02-07, 12:17 PM	Sounds roughly appropriate.
bluemage55 05-02-07, 05:25 PM	Actually, given that the other abilities of the Cosmic Descryer have low impact on the epic game, and that it only gets 1/5 bonus feat progression and has ugly feat prereqs, I'd be inclined to give it full casting progression.
Senevri 05-02-07, 06:49 PM	Perhaps. They do get the boosted HD summons - I haven't done the math on those, however, if that can actually get dangerous instead of just okay.
bluemage55 05-03-07, 02:13 AM	The increased HD ability doesn't scale quickly enough. The Cosmic Descryer gets it once every 4 levels, which amounts to +1 HD per level. Outsider HD are only worth 1 CR/2 HD, so even if the Cosmic Descryer summons/calls single creatures, the summoned/called creatures still become less and less useful. At best, the ability allows a dedicated summoner to reduce the rate at which their summoned allies become useless.
Rickiel 05-03-07, 12:06 PM	So the Cosmic Descryer needs to be revised in order to meet the modern adventurer's needs! :)
Aktariel 05-10-07, 07:47 PM	Alright - I finally read the Cosmic Descryer class... And I can certainly see why that would be pretty amazing. Any suggestions for a really good solid superpowered arcane build? Should I throw in Warlock and Eldritch Theurge? Any good templates? Classes? Anything? Sky's the limit. Within thousand-level reason, of course. Anything past 500 is just... overkill.
Zelck 05-13-07, 03:00 PM	The best arcane build includes 10 levels of Rainbow Servant. -4 caster levels for access to all cleric spells and 2x epic spell slots? Sign me up!
strenoth 05-14-07, 10:17 AM	And if youa re headed for Cheesy Goodness anyway, at those levels you should really throw in 10+ levels of Eldritch Master, from Dragon Magazine 280
bluemage55 05-14-07, 11:51 AM	The best arcane build includes 10 levels of Rainbow Servant. -4 caster levels for access to all cleric spells and 2x epic spell slots? Sign me up! And if it's that obvious that it's cheese, then you shoud know better. :rolleyes: The class was certainly not designed with Epic Spellcasting in mind (remember that WotC severely undercut the Mystic Theruge because of Epic Spellcasting), and any cleric spells that the Rainbow Servant can cast should be cast as arcane spells (as certain dragons cast cleric spells).