Phane appears in 4E [Archive] - Wizards Community

Phane appears in 4E [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rob_douglas
04-18-08, 05:06 PM For those not following along, the 4th edition version of the Phane is out:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080418b

Gives a taste of how they handled a supremely hard to handle Epic critter.
I like seeing it in there - tells us a little about how much ELH stuff might reappear. They said the scoured all the books looking for the "cool stuff" to put in the MM - and the Phane is cool.

ROB
Tshern
04-18-08, 05:15 PM Great, I've always liked Phanes. Hopefully they continue statting other epic monsters as well, there are several good choices in the ELH for them to give a go...
runestar
04-18-08, 09:43 PM Yeah, I loved the flavour of the ELH phane as well, but its abilities made it a supreme pain in the ass to run.

Absolutely liked the way they streamlined its abilities, while managing to retain its original flavour.:cool:
Taeldrin Laesrash
04-18-08, 09:43 PM I know 4e is all about coddling the players, so I'm a bit miffed at how weak some of it seems. I mean, yeah, aging affects and permanent Temporal Stasis were pretty rough, but being weakened/dazed for a turn seems next to nothing!
rob_douglas
04-19-08, 12:41 AM I hear you. There are a lot of abilities that can stop you for a couple of rounds with missed saves - but the Phane doesn't have those.

I was also surprised by the Lich template. Definitely weaker it seemed than I expected, though the Master Spellcaster feature is nice - getting back used spells in an encounter. The whole entry on improving monsters was a mixed bag of really good, and really concerning stuff.

AS for other ELH ABominations, etc - well, they did include text indicating this is not the only one. And it looks like the Tarrasque will be re-elevated to its nasty level. Did you see all the artwork? Click on the Tarrasque link in the Phane article.

ROB
Frozen_Flame
04-19-08, 11:25 AM Why did they make him so weak? I liked him just fine 3E.
NoldorForce
04-19-08, 01:49 PM I know 4e is all about coddling the players, so I'm a bit miffed at how weak some of it seems.You're either exaggerating, making a stab in the dark, or being sarcastic. I can't quite tell which.I mean, yeah, aging affects and permanent Temporal Stasis were pretty rough, but being weakened/dazed for a turn seems next to nothing!First off, what do "weakened" and "dazed" mean in 4E? Not necessarily the same thing as in 3E. Second, WotC is trying to tone down the prevalent and often destructively binary presence of save-or-die effects, which permanent Temporal Stasis is. (The aging stuff is pretty much a bunch of legacies.)

Ultimately, 4E is trying to remove the mess of Rocket Launcher Tag that's been produced by save-or-dies, staggering offenses (see Hulking Hurler et al.), blanket immunities (rather than resistances), and other high-powered things that have often been around for legacy reasons (9th-level spells). Altering the Phane from a save-or-be-indefinitely-screwed creature to a "mere" battlefield controller changes it from an arguably luck-based encounter to a difficult skill-based encounter.
Kord's Boon
04-20-08, 05:03 PM I was rather exited to see that one of the more interesting abominations made it into the 4e MM,

And to be honest I don’t really miss the loss of its prolific time stopping/clone abilities. In its 3e incarnation it was and absolute nightmare to run. I do imagine that the full entry will expound on its origins significantly and have some interesting tactics, which will hopefully make it and interesting encounter.
Taeldrin Laesrash
04-20-08, 07:57 PM You're either exaggerating, making a stab in the dark, or being sarcastic. I can't quite tell which.

Just a little exaggeration.

First off, what do "weakened" and "dazed" mean in 4E? Not necessarily the same thing as in 3E. Second, WotC is trying to tone down the prevalent and often destructively binary presence of save-or-die effects, which permanent Temporal Stasis is. (The aging stuff is pretty much a bunch of legacies.)

According to the 4E preview (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/PHB_4E_Lite_v1_2.pdf), people get +2 to hit you, and your attacks deal half damage for a round. Sure, save-or-dies can suck, but seriously? This is weak for something this strong, and besides, part of the fun's the risk.

I do imagine that the full entry will expound on its origins significantly and have some interesting tactics, which will hopefully make it and interesting encounter.

What makes you think they didn't release the whole thing?
NoldorForce
04-20-08, 09:47 PM According to the 4E preview (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/PHB_4E_Lite_v1_2.pdf), people get +2 to hit you, and your attacks deal half damage for a round. Sure, save-or-dies can suck, but seriously? This is weak for something this strong, and besides, part of the fun's the risk.True, but Rocket Launcher Tag is arguably worse. (Essentially, I agree that its battlefield control techniques should be stronger, but not nearly as strong as they were in 3E.)
beej_silver
04-20-08, 10:28 PM 2 dread wraiths (level 25 lurker)

This is actually what got my attention. That's a significant bump from being CR11.
Eldritch_Lord
04-20-08, 10:30 PM First, note the ability that lets it move before or after attacking, and note that it can be used on its attacks of opportunity. Instead of making a single target save-or-suck, the phane now can take an AoO on PC 1 when it moves, move to PC 2, take an AoO on PC 2 when it moves, move to PC 3, and so on, making the whole party suck a little bit.

Second, note that it's an elite, meaning you're going to use 2 monsters of that level in each encounter.

Third, note that it is Insubstantial, meaning it takes 1/2 damage from everything, and it has an ability that makes the target deal 1/2 damage, reducing that target's attacks against it to 1/4 normal.

Put that all together, and you have two phanes zipping around the battlefield, attacking anything that moves, who take forever to put down. Not so much coddling players as you thought, huh?
Kord's Boon
04-21-08, 12:59 AM What makes you think they didn't release the whole thing?

True, it is possible we have the entire entry, but the flavor text seemed truncated, and the tactics section was somewhat vague. I’ll admit if that all there is I will be a bit disappointed, however I would want to seem them in action before making any judgments. I can always add my own spin on them if necessary.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rob_douglas 04-18-08, 05:06 PM	For those not following along, the 4th edition version of the Phane is out: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080418b Gives a taste of how they handled a supremely hard to handle Epic critter. I like seeing it in there - tells us a little about how much ELH stuff might reappear. They said the scoured all the books looking for the "cool stuff" to put in the MM - and the Phane is cool. ROB
Tshern 04-18-08, 05:15 PM	Great, I've always liked Phanes. Hopefully they continue statting other epic monsters as well, there are several good choices in the ELH for them to give a go...
runestar 04-18-08, 09:43 PM	Yeah, I loved the flavour of the ELH phane as well, but its abilities made it a supreme pain in the ass to run. Absolutely liked the way they streamlined its abilities, while managing to retain its original flavour.:cool:
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-18-08, 09:43 PM	I know 4e is all about coddling the players, so I'm a bit miffed at how weak some of it seems. I mean, yeah, aging affects and permanent Temporal Stasis were pretty rough, but being weakened/dazed for a turn seems next to nothing!
rob_douglas 04-19-08, 12:41 AM	I hear you. There are a lot of abilities that can stop you for a couple of rounds with missed saves - but the Phane doesn't have those. I was also surprised by the Lich template. Definitely weaker it seemed than I expected, though the Master Spellcaster feature is nice - getting back used spells in an encounter. The whole entry on improving monsters was a mixed bag of really good, and really concerning stuff. AS for other ELH ABominations, etc - well, they did include text indicating this is not the only one. And it looks like the Tarrasque will be re-elevated to its nasty level. Did you see all the artwork? Click on the Tarrasque link in the Phane article. ROB
Frozen_Flame 04-19-08, 11:25 AM	Why did they make him so weak? I liked him just fine 3E.
NoldorForce 04-19-08, 01:49 PM	I know 4e is all about coddling the players, so I'm a bit miffed at how weak some of it seems.You're either exaggerating, making a stab in the dark, or being sarcastic. I can't quite tell which.I mean, yeah, aging affects and permanent Temporal Stasis were pretty rough, but being weakened/dazed for a turn seems next to nothing!First off, what do "weakened" and "dazed" mean in 4E? Not necessarily the same thing as in 3E. Second, WotC is trying to tone down the prevalent and often destructively binary presence of save-or-die effects, which permanent Temporal Stasis is. (The aging stuff is pretty much a bunch of legacies.) Ultimately, 4E is trying to remove the mess of Rocket Launcher Tag that's been produced by save-or-dies, staggering offenses (see Hulking Hurler et al.), blanket immunities (rather than resistances), and other high-powered things that have often been around for legacy reasons (9th-level spells). Altering the Phane from a save-or-be-indefinitely-screwed creature to a "mere" battlefield controller changes it from an arguably luck-based encounter to a difficult skill-based encounter.
Kord's Boon 04-20-08, 05:03 PM	I was rather exited to see that one of the more interesting abominations made it into the 4e MM, And to be honest I don’t really miss the loss of its prolific time stopping/clone abilities. In its 3e incarnation it was and absolute nightmare to run. I do imagine that the full entry will expound on its origins significantly and have some interesting tactics, which will hopefully make it and interesting encounter.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-20-08, 07:57 PM	You're either exaggerating, making a stab in the dark, or being sarcastic. I can't quite tell which. Just a little exaggeration. First off, what do "weakened" and "dazed" mean in 4E? Not necessarily the same thing as in 3E. Second, WotC is trying to tone down the prevalent and often destructively binary presence of save-or-die effects, which permanent Temporal Stasis is. (The aging stuff is pretty much a bunch of legacies.) According to the 4E preview (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/PHB_4E_Lite_v1_2.pdf), people get +2 to hit you, and your attacks deal half damage for a round. Sure, save-or-dies can suck, but seriously? This is weak for something this strong, and besides, part of the fun's the risk. I do imagine that the full entry will expound on its origins significantly and have some interesting tactics, which will hopefully make it and interesting encounter. What makes you think they didn't release the whole thing?
NoldorForce 04-20-08, 09:47 PM	According to the 4E preview (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/PHB_4E_Lite_v1_2.pdf), people get +2 to hit you, and your attacks deal half damage for a round. Sure, save-or-dies can suck, but seriously? This is weak for something this strong, and besides, part of the fun's the risk.True, but Rocket Launcher Tag is arguably worse. (Essentially, I agree that its battlefield control techniques should be stronger, but not nearly as strong as they were in 3E.)
beej_silver 04-20-08, 10:28 PM	2 dread wraiths (level 25 lurker) This is actually what got my attention. That's a significant bump from being CR11.
Eldritch_Lord 04-20-08, 10:30 PM	First, note the ability that lets it move before or after attacking, and note that it can be used on its attacks of opportunity. Instead of making a single target save-or-suck, the phane now can take an AoO on PC 1 when it moves, move to PC 2, take an AoO on PC 2 when it moves, move to PC 3, and so on, making the whole party suck a little bit. Second, note that it's an elite, meaning you're going to use 2 monsters of that level in each encounter. Third, note that it is Insubstantial, meaning it takes 1/2 damage from everything, and it has an ability that makes the target deal 1/2 damage, reducing that target's attacks against it to 1/4 normal. Put that all together, and you have two phanes zipping around the battlefield, attacking anything that moves, who take forever to put down. Not so much coddling players as you thought, huh?
Kord's Boon 04-21-08, 12:59 AM	What makes you think they didn't release the whole thing? True, it is possible we have the entire entry, but the flavor text seemed truncated, and the tactics section was somewhat vague. I’ll admit if that all there is I will be a bit disappointed, however I would want to seem them in action before making any judgments. I can always add my own spin on them if necessary.