Post 20 Beguiler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post 20 Beguiler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kn1ves
09-08-07, 12:56 AM I'm currently playing a lv 6 Raptorian Beguiler and the DM is planning on going into epic levels. My problem is that I don't know what to build toward. My original build was Beguiler 20/Mountebank 10/Arcane Trickster 10. I'm also going to ask my DM if he'll find a way for me to aquire the Shadow-Walker template sometime soon. Keeping up my caster level won't be such a big deal because of the Beguiler's level 20 ability to bypass SR when the target is denied their Dex. I think this build will be fun but ultimatly unfit for epic play. The only epic PrC that I know of that would be decent for a Beguiler is the Void Incarnate and there's no way to get that without being a high level Rogue. Any thoughts or suggestions would be helpful. I don't really have any experiance with epic play.
BillTheManiac
09-08-07, 08:03 AM There's no point in sacrificing 20 epic levels with epic feats for 10 non-epic levels. Just go beguiler 40, or Beguiler 10/Arcane Trickster 30.
Kn1ves
09-08-07, 10:45 AM Is there an Epic Beguiler progression out yet?
BillTheManiac
09-08-07, 12:42 PM Making one isn't hard.

Their caster level improves. They get d6 HD and uh... how many skills do they get?
I guess you can continue giving them advanced learning at 23rd, 27th, 31st, etc.
So, the advancement is slightlu better then the wizard. Maybe 1 epic feat/3 levels?
Witch
09-08-07, 12:45 PM You need a feat that makes sure you can penetrate immunity to mind-affecting effects somehow. Aside from that, Bill's suggestions will do.
Kn1ves
09-09-07, 09:57 AM You need a feat that makes sure you can penetrate immunity to mind-affecting effects somehow. Aside from that, Bill's suggestions will do.
Is there an actual feat that does that?

There's no point in sacrificing 20 epic levels with epic feats for 10 non-epic levels. Just go beguiler 40, or Beguiler 10/Arcane Trickster 30.
Well at some point I'll need to jump out of Beguiler for a few levels of either Rogue or Mountebank so that I can pick up the 2D6 sneak attack I'll need to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
BillTheManiac
09-09-07, 12:12 PM OK. Just make sure you finish Arcane Trickster by 20 so you don't sacrifice any epic feats.
Witch
09-09-07, 01:15 PM Is there an actual feat that does that?
Not an official one - there's no epic progression for the Beguiler either. This is epic: design needs to be done by non-official sources, or you're limited to a core game. Which reminds me - the first design work I did since getting into the thing, was an epic beguiler progression. Not sure if I still have it, however. It's not that hard to make.

A possibility of such a feat is this one: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=153626#153626
(Note: the site is having issues - so if you're logged in, you won't be able to see it if your account is having the problems.)
Kn1ves
09-10-07, 12:27 PM Alright so for the sake of argument say I went Beguiler 20 and then took a level in Fighter would that level in Fighter be the 1st level or the 21st level? What I mean is would I get a 1st level fighters stats and Bonus Feat or would I get whatever comes with taking the 21st level of Fighter?
BillTheManiac
09-10-07, 03:36 PM By RAW, 1st level fighter. This sucks because 10 epic feats>>11 normal feats.
Rojar
09-10-07, 04:26 PM What method do you all use to meet the "mage hand" requirement for Arcane trickster? It's not on the Beguiler Spell list. I'm considering making just such a progression. I'm going to ask my DM if I can meet the requirement by taking the "spell hand" feat from Complete arcane - gives Open/close, Mage hand and Tenser's floating Disk each as 1/day spell like Abilities. Hopefully that will suffice.

Thanks!
RealSorceror
09-10-07, 05:04 PM You should so take Insidious Corrupter from Drow of the Underdark. It would be so boss with Beguiler. That, or take Mindbender from Complete Arcane. Just be sure to grab the Practiced Caster feat.

And remember, we don't lease, we don't lend, we take the mind!
Kn1ves
09-10-07, 09:19 PM What method do you all use to meet the "mage hand" requirement for Arcane trickster? It's not on the Beguiler Spell list. I'm considering making just such a progression. I'm going to ask my DM if I can meet the requirement by taking the "spell hand" feat from Complete arcane - gives Open/close, Mage hand and Tenser's floating Disk each as 1/day spell like Abilities. Hopefully that will suffice.

Thanks!
That's how I was planning on getting in.

You should so take Insidious Corrupter from Drow of the Underdark. It would be so boss with Beguiler. That, or take Mindbender from Complete Arcane. Just be sure to grab the Practiced Caster feat.
I'll have to check out the Insidious Corrupter.

And remember, we don't lease, we don't lend, we take the mind!
I love Harvey Birdman.
RealSorceror
09-11-07, 03:32 PM I'll have to check out the Insidious Corrupter.
You get a supernatural ability at will that you can use to target people (initially just one, but later up to five). If they fail the save, you gain a bonus on certian Cha and Wis based skill checks against them, as well as being able to give them a penalty or bonus to their skill checks. On top of that, while they are under your influence, they get no save against your Read Thoughts and Dominate Person. Its got lots of other cool swag for anyone who likes enchantment spells.
I love Harvey Birdman.
Don't we all? :D
Kn1ves
09-14-07, 10:59 AM Alright so for the sake of argument say I went Beguiler 20 and then took a level in Fighter would that level in Fighter be the 1st level or the 21st level? What I mean is would I get a 1st level fighters stats and Bonus Feat or would I get whatever comes with taking the 21st level of Fighter?
By RAW, 1st level fighter. This sucks because 10 epic feats>>11 normal feats.
So people are saying to get my non-epic prestige classes out of the way now so I don't sacrifice epic feats but if I went Beguiler 15/Fatespinner 5 wouldn't I get my 16th level of Beguiler at 21st level and not start on the Epic Beguiler progression till I'm level 26?
rob_douglas
09-14-07, 04:14 PM I think you misunderstood. They meant get the PrC out of the way if it is a 10-level PrC that you intend to continue and get epic bonus feats for, by level 20. Fatespinner is a 5 level PrC and, just like archmage and hierophant, will take away 5/3 of an epic bonus feat from any progression - so you have to be sure the benefits are worth it for your character. The cases they suggested were getting 10 levels of arcane Trickster before 20th, and then advancing as Arcane trickster the rest of the way - getting bonus feats for that at 14th, 18th, etc - which should hopefully be character level 24 and 28... If you take 10 levels of AT, and then go back to Beguiler, you are wasting 10 levels worth of bonus epic feats - amounting to 10/3 feats - over 3 epic feats.

ROB
Kn1ves
09-16-07, 02:06 PM Thank you for all the advice.. You've helped me understand Epic quite a bit better than I did a few weeks ago. I know I want all 20 levels of Beguiler plus probably all 5 of Fatespinner so I'll sacrificing some Epic bonus Feats for that combo. It looks like it'll just take too much away from a decent build to get anywhere in Arcane trickster so it looks like it'll just be straight Epic beguiler after 25.
archerpwr
09-16-07, 02:58 PM What's stopping you from going beguiler 6/ Shadowcraft Mage 4/ Shadowcrafter into epic?

Edit: NVM. Not a gnome.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kn1ves 09-08-07, 12:56 AM	I'm currently playing a lv 6 Raptorian Beguiler and the DM is planning on going into epic levels. My problem is that I don't know what to build toward. My original build was Beguiler 20/Mountebank 10/Arcane Trickster 10. I'm also going to ask my DM if he'll find a way for me to aquire the Shadow-Walker template sometime soon. Keeping up my caster level won't be such a big deal because of the Beguiler's level 20 ability to bypass SR when the target is denied their Dex. I think this build will be fun but ultimatly unfit for epic play. The only epic PrC that I know of that would be decent for a Beguiler is the Void Incarnate and there's no way to get that without being a high level Rogue. Any thoughts or suggestions would be helpful. I don't really have any experiance with epic play.
BillTheManiac 09-08-07, 08:03 AM	There's no point in sacrificing 20 epic levels with epic feats for 10 non-epic levels. Just go beguiler 40, or Beguiler 10/Arcane Trickster 30.
Kn1ves 09-08-07, 10:45 AM	Is there an Epic Beguiler progression out yet?
BillTheManiac 09-08-07, 12:42 PM	Making one isn't hard. Their caster level improves. They get d6 HD and uh... how many skills do they get? I guess you can continue giving them advanced learning at 23rd, 27th, 31st, etc. So, the advancement is slightlu better then the wizard. Maybe 1 epic feat/3 levels?
Witch 09-08-07, 12:45 PM	You need a feat that makes sure you can penetrate immunity to mind-affecting effects somehow. Aside from that, Bill's suggestions will do.
Kn1ves 09-09-07, 09:57 AM	You need a feat that makes sure you can penetrate immunity to mind-affecting effects somehow. Aside from that, Bill's suggestions will do. Is there an actual feat that does that? There's no point in sacrificing 20 epic levels with epic feats for 10 non-epic levels. Just go beguiler 40, or Beguiler 10/Arcane Trickster 30. Well at some point I'll need to jump out of Beguiler for a few levels of either Rogue or Mountebank so that I can pick up the 2D6 sneak attack I'll need to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
BillTheManiac 09-09-07, 12:12 PM	OK. Just make sure you finish Arcane Trickster by 20 so you don't sacrifice any epic feats.
Witch 09-09-07, 01:15 PM	Is there an actual feat that does that? Not an official one - there's no epic progression for the Beguiler either. This is epic: design needs to be done by non-official sources, or you're limited to a core game. Which reminds me - the first design work I did since getting into the thing, was an epic beguiler progression. Not sure if I still have it, however. It's not that hard to make. A possibility of such a feat is this one: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=153626#153626 (Note: the site is having issues - so if you're logged in, you won't be able to see it if your account is having the problems.)
Kn1ves 09-10-07, 12:27 PM	Alright so for the sake of argument say I went Beguiler 20 and then took a level in Fighter would that level in Fighter be the 1st level or the 21st level? What I mean is would I get a 1st level fighters stats and Bonus Feat or would I get whatever comes with taking the 21st level of Fighter?
BillTheManiac 09-10-07, 03:36 PM	By RAW, 1st level fighter. This sucks because 10 epic feats>>11 normal feats.
Rojar 09-10-07, 04:26 PM	What method do you all use to meet the "mage hand" requirement for Arcane trickster? It's not on the Beguiler Spell list. I'm considering making just such a progression. I'm going to ask my DM if I can meet the requirement by taking the "spell hand" feat from Complete arcane - gives Open/close, Mage hand and Tenser's floating Disk each as 1/day spell like Abilities. Hopefully that will suffice. Thanks!
RealSorceror 09-10-07, 05:04 PM	You should so take Insidious Corrupter from Drow of the Underdark. It would be so boss with Beguiler. That, or take Mindbender from Complete Arcane. Just be sure to grab the Practiced Caster feat. And remember, we don't lease, we don't lend, we take the mind!
Kn1ves 09-10-07, 09:19 PM	What method do you all use to meet the "mage hand" requirement for Arcane trickster? It's not on the Beguiler Spell list. I'm considering making just such a progression. I'm going to ask my DM if I can meet the requirement by taking the "spell hand" feat from Complete arcane - gives Open/close, Mage hand and Tenser's floating Disk each as 1/day spell like Abilities. Hopefully that will suffice. Thanks! That's how I was planning on getting in. You should so take Insidious Corrupter from Drow of the Underdark. It would be so boss with Beguiler. That, or take Mindbender from Complete Arcane. Just be sure to grab the Practiced Caster feat. I'll have to check out the Insidious Corrupter. And remember, we don't lease, we don't lend, we take the mind! I love Harvey Birdman.
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 03:32 PM	I'll have to check out the Insidious Corrupter. You get a supernatural ability at will that you can use to target people (initially just one, but later up to five). If they fail the save, you gain a bonus on certian Cha and Wis based skill checks against them, as well as being able to give them a penalty or bonus to their skill checks. On top of that, while they are under your influence, they get no save against your Read Thoughts and Dominate Person. Its got lots of other cool swag for anyone who likes enchantment spells. I love Harvey Birdman. Don't we all? :D
Kn1ves 09-14-07, 10:59 AM	Alright so for the sake of argument say I went Beguiler 20 and then took a level in Fighter would that level in Fighter be the 1st level or the 21st level? What I mean is would I get a 1st level fighters stats and Bonus Feat or would I get whatever comes with taking the 21st level of Fighter? By RAW, 1st level fighter. This sucks because 10 epic feats>>11 normal feats. So people are saying to get my non-epic prestige classes out of the way now so I don't sacrifice epic feats but if I went Beguiler 15/Fatespinner 5 wouldn't I get my 16th level of Beguiler at 21st level and not start on the Epic Beguiler progression till I'm level 26?
rob_douglas 09-14-07, 04:14 PM	I think you misunderstood. They meant get the PrC out of the way if it is a 10-level PrC that you intend to continue and get epic bonus feats for, by level 20. Fatespinner is a 5 level PrC and, just like archmage and hierophant, will take away 5/3 of an epic bonus feat from any progression - so you have to be sure the benefits are worth it for your character. The cases they suggested were getting 10 levels of arcane Trickster before 20th, and then advancing as Arcane trickster the rest of the way - getting bonus feats for that at 14th, 18th, etc - which should hopefully be character level 24 and 28... If you take 10 levels of AT, and then go back to Beguiler, you are wasting 10 levels worth of bonus epic feats - amounting to 10/3 feats - over 3 epic feats. ROB
Kn1ves 09-16-07, 02:06 PM	Thank you for all the advice.. You've helped me understand Epic quite a bit better than I did a few weeks ago. I know I want all 20 levels of Beguiler plus probably all 5 of Fatespinner so I'll sacrificing some Epic bonus Feats for that combo. It looks like it'll just take too much away from a decent build to get anywhere in Arcane trickster so it looks like it'll just be straight Epic beguiler after 25.
archerpwr 09-16-07, 02:58 PM	What's stopping you from going beguiler 6/ Shadowcraft Mage 4/ Shadowcrafter into epic? Edit: NVM. Not a gnome.