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| Uberman02-23-07, 06:20 PM | OK, just reposting this from THIS THREAD : http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=790420 Because it was pointed out that a lot of people who might be interested may not have checked it out over there.. we accidentally hijacked that thread around page 2.. (sorry).. This is just so there's a new thread for it that makes sense. The question essentially boils down to: Are CR's improper or what? IE Dragons.. It has been said that a "properly played" Dragon should be able to defeat pretty much any party that isn't lower level, though myself and friends (Including the majority of gamers I play with IRL). backing me up on this was Caros, who suggested a duel to find out... BlueMage designs an Old (CR 48) Prismatic dragon complete with about 3.5 Million in treasure to spend however he wants, defending his lair and self. We design 4 level 36 characters with lvl 36 equipment starting in a town. Both will be built using only the SRD and BLUEMAGE'S own Epic SRD revision thread. Witch will be "DMing" this experiment and THEN both sides will reveal to the forum their 'builds' so that they can be disected and we can (maybe) come to a conclussion. Please Enjoy and feel free to post comments. |
| bluemage5502-23-07, 09:21 PM | I thought we concluded the town-lair thing was rather pointless (or at least, Caros did and I concur). Let's just have the battle start out in the open of a non-descript, featureless flat area on the Prime Material Plane. |
| Caros02-25-07, 07:05 AM | Appologies for not being around nearly as much as I'd have liked the last few days. Weekends tend to wipe me out as far as energy goes. Builds are recieving touch-ups now (And formatting so you can you know... read them.) And I've got witch's e-mail. Huzzah. More to come! |
| runestar02-25-07, 08:59 AM | I thought that epic fights were basically a joke, seeing as to how any battle essentially boils down to who wins initiative first and gets to use his dust of choking...:P In theory, a commoner1 with enough treasure can take on a prismatic dragon... |
| Upper_Krust02-25-07, 10:11 AM | Hey Uberman! :) The question essentially boils down to: Are CR's improper or what? IE Dragons.. It has been said that a "properly played" Dragon should be able to defeat pretty much any party that isn't lower level, though myself and friends (Including the majority of gamers I play with IRL). backing me up on this was Caros, who suggested a duel to find out... Most Dragon CR's have been arbitrarily lowered by WotC so that when you fight them, its a much tougher challenge. Personally I always found this approach a tad insulting, as if saying the DM can't decide for themselves. I calculate the Great Wyrm Black Dragon to be CR 31 rather than CR 22. This means a typical party of four 20th-level PCs will only just have a better than 50/50 chance against it...probably 66/34 in favour of the PCs. I can see the dragon winning 1 out of 3. Other than Dragons, CRs in 3.5 are fairly good. CR's in 3.0 are often terrible however*. *Note how many CRs are changed in the back of Fiendish Codex I. The Klurichir (MM II) goes from CR 25 to CR 17! :eek: |
| runestar02-25-07, 10:46 AM | *Note how many CRs are changed in the back of Fiendish Codex I. The Klurichir (MM II) goes from CR 25 to CR 17! It always did seem too weak for a cr25. Now, if only they could rework the hellfire wyrm as well... |
| Upper_Krust02-25-07, 10:56 AM | Hey Runestar! :) It always did seem too weak for a cr25. Now, if only they could rework the hellfire wyrm as well... I just did, the Hellfire Wyrm should be CR 22. ;) |
| bluemage5502-25-07, 12:29 PM | I thought that epic fights were basically a joke, seeing as to how any battle essentially boils down to who wins initiative first and gets to use his dust of choking...:P In theory, a commoner1 with enough treasure can take on a prismatic dragon... An epic ward can make you immune to stunning. But you haven't really that shown that epic fights are a joke, only that the dust of choking and sneezing needs to be errataed. |
| Witch02-25-07, 03:49 PM | If people think I'm going to allow an item that approaches Planar Shepherd brokenness, they'd be wrong ;) |
| bluemage5502-25-07, 04:15 PM | If people think I'm going to allow an item that approaches Planar Shepherd brokenness, they'd be wrong ;) I'll be immune anyway, so you should let them waste money. :D |
| Thomas_Covenant02-26-07, 12:08 AM | *Note how many CRs are changed in the back of Fiendish Codex I. The Klurichir (MM II) goes from CR 25 to CR 17! :eek:I think that's as much an issue with MMII as anything else. The designers of that book flunked the classes on playtesting or CR guidelines, flunked bad enough to skew the grade curve, probably. Mountain Giant: 30 HD, +10 Will save, no special defenses....26 CR....FTW!!?? Spot/Listen +16....so he can't spot anyone with maxxed Hide, even without Invis, which he can't see through. He's Colossal, so there's effectively no way he can ambush anything in melee, and his one thrown rock a round scares no one. Sorry, the Iconic 4 party should rip him apart at level 18 with no risk at all. Fiendwurm: 24 HD Magical Beast....CR 28. Yeah, sure it is. With one attack/round for 28 Hps average, no SR, and another +10 Will Save. But...he can swallow and send you to the Abyss! No....he can't. (*Cough* Free Action *Cough*) Ok, even if the Fighter is bafflingly stupid enough to not have Free action *And* not have planar travel, he can survive alone on the Abyss for weeks. One spell, two if the Fiendwurm gets a natural "20", and a mid level slot to get the Fighter taking a nap in the Abyss. But Disjunction, Disintegrate, and Implosion at will is CR 9. (Adamantine Clockwork Horror) Yeah, that sounds balanced, really. |
| Upper_Krust02-27-07, 01:43 PM | Hey Thomas! :) I just checked over the Mountain Giant. Its CR 18. But its not very well thought out. It has Str 43 (Colossal) while a Storm Giant (Huge) has Str 39. I'd suggest Str 59 would be better. I don't see why it couldn't throw 4 rocks per round. Also I would suggest that if it hits someone standing on the ground it should deal double damage (the targets being squashed between the club and the ground). 32 HD would also be a better fit as the bare minimum for a Colssal creature. I just worked the Fiendwurm out to be CR 16 using my CR system...how the hell the designers originally got CR 28 is anybodies guess!? Again its pretty weak in terms of design. At bare minimum it should deal acid damage when it bites equal to its base damage (+2d8 acid). It also needs spell resistance and a tail attack would be useful, as would a constrict. Is it also missing some feats? Improved Natural Attack (Bite) should be a must - increasing the base damage to 4d6+19 +4d6 acid which is a tad more respectable. Summoning Dretches is a waste of time for its CR. 1 Glabrezu, 1d3 Hezrou or 1d6 Vrock would be better. |
| rironin03-05-07, 01:29 PM | Did the showdown ever take place? I was interested in what epic combat even looks like/what kinds of builds you guys would come up with. Never played epic myself, and everything seems skewed and crazy to me, so I was very interested in who would triumph here. |
| bluemage5503-05-07, 01:39 PM | I have the dragon nearly completed, but I stopped working on it when the thread seemed to die. Skills, feats, spells, and epic spells are all competed, and only some unspent wealth is left. |
| LordBOB77703-05-07, 02:42 PM | This thread sounds promising |
| silenceisgolden08-07-07, 12:50 AM | uhh... looks promising? what happened? |
| bluemage5508-07-07, 03:34 AM | My challengers disappeared. Maybe they were scared? Rather unforunate, as I took the time to design 3 epic spells and a large number of Multispell-facilitated spell combinations. |
| KRATOS_BLADE_of_SPARTA08-07-07, 07:52 AM | Bluemage if the fight does not go ahead, and a significant amount of time elapses, would you honor us with a presentation of your dragon build? |
| Legdiwena08-07-07, 05:02 PM | What is Planar Shepherd? |
| Tequila_Sunrise08-08-07, 02:25 AM | Haven't seen it myself but apparently it's an insanely overpowered druid PrC from some Eberron book. PS Bluemage: Isn't it a bit weird to spend all that dragon gold on whatever the dragon wants? Or is that 3.5 mil gp just a fraction of the dragon's horde? |
| bluemage5508-08-07, 08:30 AM | PS Bluemage: Isn't it a bit weird to spend all that dragon gold on whatever the dragon wants? Or is that 3.5 mil gp just a fraction of the dragon's horde? 3.5 mil is the total value of the hoard. It's not abnormal for a dragon to spend their horde as they choose. The Draconomicon includes many dragons outfitted with gear that they have purchased using their horde. |
| bluemage5508-08-07, 08:34 AM | Bluemage if the fight does not go ahead, and a significant amount of time elapses, would you honor us with a presentation of your dragon build? I never finished, but I can post what I completed (which was most of the dragon except the equipment). It's not formatted though. The basic plan was to rely on Exceptional Deflection, the epic spells and the antimagic field to provide protection, while the dragon would then isolate party members by bull rushing one into a gate, finishing off that character with either Diplomacy (preferred, as it allows the addition of a fanatic ally) or a horrendously damaging Dire Charge (underneath AMF conditions, to prevent escape and use of life-saving defensive items) and returning to eliminate the next character. I was contemplating the use of Devastating Critical (made possible again by the AMF) to provide the kill instead, as that might be faster. Rainbow Male Old True Neutral Prismatic Dragon Colossal Dragon CR 48 Experience: 1,661,400 Next Level: 1,712,000 Ability Scores: STR 57 [+23] (11 base +46 racial) DEX 11 [+00] (11 base +0 racial) CON 49 [+19] (11 base +38 racial) INT 48 [+19] (10 base +38 racial) WIS 48 [+19] (10 base +38 racial) CHA 48 [+19] (10 base +38 racial) Hit Points: 1,479 [58d12 + 1,102 HD] Defense: 78 [10 base +19 deflection +57 natural +0 Dex -8 size], Touch 21, Flat 78 Initiative: +4 [+0 Dex +4 Improved Initiative] BAB/Grap: +58/+81 [+58 Bab +23 Str ] Speed: 60 ft., fly 300 ft. (clumsy) [60 ft. racial, 300 ft. racial] Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft Saving Throws: Fort +50 [+31 dragon +19 Con] Ref+31 [+31 dragon +0 Dex] Will +56 [+31 dragon +19 Wis +6 feat] Immunities: sleep, paralysis, light effects, blindness, petrification, stunning Feats: Weapon Proficiency: Simple [Fighter bonus 1st] Quicken Spell [1st] Improved Unarmed Strike [3rd] Deflect Arrows [6th] Combat Reflexes [9th] Improved Initiative [12th] Iron Will [15th] Skill Focus (Listen) [18th] Epic Feats: Epic Spellcasting [21st] Automatic Quicken Spell [24th] Improved Automatic Quicken Spell [27th] Greater Automatic Quicken Spell [30th] Perfect Automatic Quicken Spell [33rd] Multispell [36th] Multispell [39th] Multispell [42nd] Permanent Emanation (antimagic field) [45th] Exceptional Deflection [48th] Multispell [51st] Improved Spell Capacity (10th) [dragon bonus 53rd] Infinite Deflection [54th] Dire Charge [57th] Improved Spell Capacity (11th) [dragon bonus 58th] Racial and Class Abilities: Racial Abilities: Prismatic Dragon Hit Dice: 58 racial dragon HD Abilities: +46 Str, +38 Con, +38 Int, +38 Wis, +38 Cha Speed: 60 ft., fly 120ft. (perfect) Attacks: Natural bite 4d8 +Str (4d8+19), 2 claws 4d6 +0.5*Str (4d6+9), 2 wings 2d8 +0.5*Str (2d8+9), tail slap 4d6+Str*1.5 (4d6+38) Bonus Feats: Improved Spell Capacity (10th, 11th) (Ex) DR 20/epic (Ex) SR 66 (Ex) Blindsight 60 ft. (Ex) Keen Senses (Ex) Immunities: sleep, paralysis, light effects, blindness (Ex) Frightful Presence 240 ft. (Will DC 58) (Ex) Crush 3d8 +Str*1.5 (3d8+38) (Ex) Tail Sweep 2d8 +Str*1.5 (2d8+38) (40 ft. radius, Reflex half DC 58) (Su) Deflecting Force: +Cha (+19) deflection bonus to AC (Su) Breath Weapon: cone of prismatic spray, 70 ft., effect as spell, (Save DCs 58). (Sp) at will – hypnotic pattern, rainbow pattern, 3/day – sunbeam , CL 26th, Save DC 10 + Cha + spell level (29 + spell level) Darkvision – 120 ft. Favored Class: Sorcerer Class Abilities: None Skills: (Dragon 1525) +49 Autohypnosis [30 ranks +19 Wis] +34 Balance [30 ranks +0 Dex +4 synergy] +49 Bluff [30 ranks +19 Cha] +84 Climb [61 ranks +23 Str] +80 Concentration [61 ranks +19 Con] +96 Diplomacy [61 ranks +19 Cha +16 synergy] +61 Escape Artist [61 ranks +0 Dex] +80 Heal [61 ranks +19 Wis] +14 Hide [30 ranks +0 Dex -16 size] +96 Jump [61 ranks +23 Str +12 speed] +68 Knowledge (Arcana) [45 ranks +19 Int +4 equip] +68 Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) [45 ranks +19 Int +4 equip] +68 Knowledge (Psionics) [45 ranks +19 Int +4 equip] +83 Listen [61 ranks +19 Wis +3 feat] +61 Move Silently [61 ranks +0 Dex] +55 Psicraft [30 ranks +19 Int +6 synergy] Read/Write Language (all) +19 Search [0 ranks +19 Int] +80 Sense Motive [61 ranks +19 Wis] +27 Sleight of Hand [23 ranks +0 Dex +4 synergy] +80 Spellcraft [61 ranks +19 Int] +80 Spot [61 ranks +19 Wis] Speak Language (all) +53 Swim [30 ranks +23 Str] +36 Tumble [30 ranks +0 Dex +6 synergy] +80 Use Magic Device [61 ranks +19 Cha] +49 Use Psionic Device [30 ranks +19 Cha] Spellcasting: Spells Known: Spells per Day: 7/11/11/11/10/10/10/10/9/9/4/4 0: [DC 29] Acid Splash, Daze, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue 1: [DC 30] Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Missile, Protection from Evil, True Strike 2: [DC 31] Glitterdust, Gust of Wind, Resist Energy, Spider Climb, Web 3: [DC 32] Daylight, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Haste 4: [DC 33] Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Remove Curse, Wall of Fire 5: [DC 34] Break Enchantment, Cone of Cold, Telekinesis, Teleport 6: [DC 35] Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic 7: [DC 36] Greater Teleport, Limited Wish, Passwall 8: [DC 37] Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Protection from Spells 9: [DC 38] Gate, Mage’s Disjunction, Wish Active Spells: Antimagic Ward (arbitrarily large number of times on self and equipment) Contingent Spell Reflection x6 Contingency (reduced to half hit points or less): teleport 1 mile upward Dispelling Ward (arbitrarily large number of times on self and equipment) Mind Blank Moment of Prescience Epic Spells Known: Antimagic Ward Abjuration Spellcraft DC: 14 Components: V, S Casting Time: 98 days, 11 minutes. Range: Touch Target or Effect: Touched creature or object of 2,000 lb. or less; or 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 126,000 gp; 3 days; 5,040 XP. Seed: ward (DC 14). Factors: specific protections all harmful 1st level spells and powers (+0 DC), antimagic field (+10 DC), null psionics field (+10 DC), petrifiction (ad hoc +6 DC), stunning (ad hoc +6 DC); permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), increase casting time by 98 days (-196 DC). All creatures and objects in the area become permanently immune to all harmful 1st level spells, spell-like abilities, and spell effects. In addition, those creatures and objects become immune to the following spells, spell-like abilities, and spell effects: antimagic field and null psionics field. Finally, those creatures and objects become immune to purification and stunning. Contingent Spell Reflection Abjuration Spellcraft DC: 32 Components: V, S Casting Time: 100 days, 11 minutes Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Contingent until expended, then 12 hours To Develop: 288,000 gp; 6 days; 11,520 XP. Seed: reflect (DC 27). Factors: reflect up to epic spells (+180 DC), include area spells (+20 DC), activated when subject is target of offensive spell (+25 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (–20 DC), increase casting time by 100 days (–200 DC). The character can create a ward against all spells that target the subject, including area spells where the subject is caught in the vicinity. These spells are reflected back on the caster. The desired effect is automatically reflected if the spell in question is 9th level or lower. An opposed caster level check is required when the contingent spell reflection is used against another epic spell. If the enemy spellcaster gets his or her spell through by winning the caster level check, contingent spell reflection is not expended, just momentarily suppressed. This spell is triggered if the subject activates a moment of prescience effect. Dispelling Ward Abjuration Spellcraft DC: 14 Components: V, S Casting Time: 98 days, 11 minutes. Range: Touch Target or Effect: Touched creature or object of 2,000 lb. or less; or 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 126,000 gp; 3 days; 5,040 XP. Seed: ward (DC 14). Factors: specific protections all harmful 1st level spells and powers (+0 DC), dispel magic (+4 DC), dispel psionics (+4 DC), greater dispel magic (+8 DC), mage’s disjunction (+16 DC); permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), increase casting time by 98 days (-196 DC) All creatures and objects in the area become permanently immune to all harmful 1st level spells, spell-like abilities, and spell effects. In addition, those creatures and objects become immune to the following spells, spell-like abilities, and spell effects: dispel magic, dispel psionics, greater dispel magic, mage’s disjunction. |
| Tequila_Sunrise08-08-07, 07:11 PM | 3.5 mil is the total value of the hoard. It's not abnormal for a dragon to spend their horde as they choose. The Draconomicon includes many dragons outfitted with gear that they have purchased using their horde. My assumption is that the majority of any monster's wealth is...well, just that; wealth. The fluff about dragons liking to roll around in their wealth is just an excuse for the DM not to spend it all on PC killing items. But hey, your dragon is 12 CRs higher than the party and you're trying to kill rather than challenge so anything flies right? |
| YourInnerDarkness08-09-07, 12:25 AM | I had a "battle" between a Dragon and 4 party members. This was a Battle in the Dragons Favor as the Party wasnt saposed to win this fight. As a High Level dragon I designed a spell I dont remember all the Details as it was a few years ago. But I called it. Convert to Ally. And basically all I did was use this spell twice and the party killed them selves off. |
| Caros08-09-07, 01:01 PM | Long time no thread! Despite bluemages suggestions, we did not get scared, we got busy. Moving to a new house, finding a new job... the list goes on and a thousand appoligies. Though from the looks of things this wouldn't have been much of a challenge ^_^; Just noiced the thread as I was on my way to the optimization forums, the top link on the epic board, I had to see if someone had actually taken up our fight, but sadly, no takers =( First off, Errors abound. Most of them I assume are just lack of listed equipment/formatting errors, but we'll see: You don't have a high enough dex for regular deflection, let alone the epic varients. While I am amused that you're using diplomacy after you ranted at us how broken it is, Diplomacy only changes NPC attitudes. In the event that it did work, We have four PC's to his one, and we will talk him over to our side quite quickly =) This: Weapon Proficiency: Simple [Fighter bonus 1st], Is in your feat list, which is just plain confusing =.=; Also, your epic spells, though irrelivent are not arbitrarily large. Dragons do age ^_^; All that aside, I'm actually glad to see that my initial build would have killed you. I will admit that there were some doubts as to whether we had enough redundancy, and it was the paperwork in large part that had me not exactly eager to come back to post ^_^; Since you shared yours I'll share ours, both the main build, and the subsequent humor builds. The main build, we were working off the idea of triple redundancy, as well as beating the dragon without going too far afield in bizzare ideas. It consisted mostly of us beating you in inititative (Moment of Precience coupled with initiative scores in the +30 range.) Our four party members were mostly identical mages. The first one to go would fire off an Epic dispel. For this we were planning on using an area based Epic dispel. With the +Caster level cranked around +100 with Arcane mastery to avoid nat 1 complicatedness, we believed (And rightly so it looks like) that we would end all of your spells. In terms of the presented build, the above leaves it bare naked for the most part. A second caster would then use Chained Greater dispel. Repeatedly. With Greater arcane sight he would be targeting any items that gave off abjuration, Transmutation, Conjuration or Necromancy auras of moderate strength or higher. The spells are buffed in their dispell check by Elven Spell Lore, giving I believe +34 to dispel. More than enough for the items we want. Alternately, since the dragon is no longer immune to it, we hit the dragon with an antimagic field, we can cast epic spells into it so the build still functions. As a side note, the dragon will spend the next 100 days unable to cast spells in the event that we let it survive. When its AMF comes back up it's not immune. If necessary our third PC would assist in the dispelling. If not he would proceed to step three. Momento Mori. Jacked up DC to +100. A second casting would be prepared in the fluke event of nat 20. I believe that covers our initial plan. There was more to it, but that escapes me now. We'd pondered with the idea of ray spells, but mostly discarded the idea due to the thought that, after showing our hand with various non-epic ray spells, we should expect Deflection (A tad of metagaming, but I was right =/) Other thoughts included a dominate spell in place of momento Mori (Epic spell most likely. Mind effecting immunity, like death immunity is hard to come by without items.) A touch spell from frostburn that dealt dex damage, Straight beatdown damage (The hardest of the, I don't believe we ever did figure out a way for lvl 36 pcs to effectively beat down a dragon in one round.), Touch based level drain from an epic spell also ends the dragon with rediculous ease and was actually our first idea. We thought it was too cheezy. (To give you an example, this dragon has Touch AC 21. One epic energy drain kills it, we wouldn't even need to dispel it unless we were worried about imunities.) And a few others that pass my mind now. Then there were the wacky ideas. Our ideal battle plan only called for 2 PC's worth of actions (Yay multispell). We figured we'd have to do something amusing with the other two if things went so smoothly. Initial plans to summon Tiamat were dashed when we found that she is immune to summoning (Though her aspect is not) So we settled for summoning and subsequently one-shotting and aspect of Tiamat. Alternately we could full out summon Demogorgon and end him for fun. I don't know if its possible, we toyed with the idea but never committed it to numbers, Innate spell, timestop. We cast timestop once a round for as long as we like and build an unescapable deathtrap/fortress around the dragon. Was a thought. The fiend of posession is amusing in so many ways, not the least of which is the fact that, with leadership we can have a near invincible character. Trap posesser keeps the fiend inside the body of his cohort, and stilled silent spells allow him to repeatedly true res him. A party of four of these (via leadership) Kills the dragon out of sheer exaustion. Recently (Today) I considered 'hadou-ken' an epic destruction seed as a viable alternitive to dispel, I wonder though, can you target an abjuration with it without aiming for the center. Ie, can I shoot it at an angle to knock out your AMF without getting it deflected. For that matter, does it still destroy it if it is deflected? I could go on but I'm going to give it a break and check back in a day or two to see how many insults have been flung my way about how "I couldn't have come up with any of those ideas without seeing the dragon first." Frankly, if you feel that way, have at me. Though I will point out that the initial arguement was: "I really don't care much for your hearsay evidence that a 20th level character can solo a great prismatic wyrm. If you can show me how it can be done without rules loopholes (e.g. Pun-Pun and the like), then go ahead." Admittedly this is level 36 (Well below the CR REQUIRED to win this fight, and I would say that with equiped treasure and optimized tactics this dragon is actually stronger than the statted CR 48) but I believe we've done that. We used epic spells, no rules loopholes/cheats (The most broken thing we did was chained targeted greater dispel =/) And the dragon was played perfectly right (The arguement that the dragon was being played poorly never comes up since it never moves.) Discuss =) ((Edit: Forgive the giant block of text Secondary edit: I suppose you could argue our stats and DC's. If you want to, we can play that way, but you won't be seeing anything from me until my days off start at weeks end. *laugh*)) |
| bluemage5508-12-07, 08:54 AM | You don't have a high enough dex for regular deflection, let alone the epic varients. That would be addressed in the equipment, which had not been completed. While I am amused that you're using diplomacy after you ranted at us how broken it is, Diplomacy only changes NPC attitudes. In the event that it did work, We have four PC's to his one, and we will talk him over to our side quite quickly =) From the dragon's perspective, you are the NPCs. And having multiple PCs will not help you in using Diplomacy, unless you're considering the +2 bonus each from Aid Another. The dragon's higher ranks, ability modifiers, and more expensive equipment, on the other hand, will mean a great deal. Diplomacy is broken if not fixed. It's fine as an opposed check, as I would not be able to automatically make even gods into fanatic followers. Rather, it would allow a CR 48 dragon to deal with a mobs of much lower-level opponents (like your PCs). This: Weapon Proficiency: Simple [Fighter bonus 1st], Is in your feat list, which is just plain confusing =.=; Leftover from the template I copied off of. Also, your epic spells, though irrelivent are not arbitrarily large. Dragons do age ^_^; Arbitrarily large for the purposes of the test only means that more than you can dispel in one day if you're using one-for-one dispels. All that aside, I'm actually glad to see that my initial build would have killed you. I will admit that there were some doubts as to whether we had enough redundancy, and it was the paperwork in large part that had me not exactly eager to come back to post ^_^; The dragon has no equipment. It's less than half complete. The main build, we were working off the idea of triple redundancy, as well as beating the dragon without going too far afield in bizzare ideas. It consisted mostly of us beating you in inititative (Moment of Precience coupled with initiative scores in the +30 range.) You might notice that the dragon also has moment of prescience active. After equipment, I would surmise that the dragon would have a higher Dex as well. I also question your ability to have +30 initiative, as that would most likely require Dex 54, a huge financial undertaking on top of your expensive epic spells and other gear. Our four party members were mostly identical mages. The first one to go would fire off an Epic dispel. For this we were planning on using an area based Epic dispel. With the +Caster level cranked around +100 with Arcane mastery to avoid nat 1 complicatedness, we believed (And rightly so it looks like) that we would end all of your spells. = We agreed to stick with Core to avoid problems, so that would remove Arcane Mastery. You also fail to realize the basic rule that natural 1s don't apply to skill checks, so you might want to re-evaluate many of your assumptions. Your epic dispel would walk into my Contingent Spell Reflection spells (automatically activated prior to combat in using moment of prescience /I]for the initiative roll), bouncing back into you unless you beat an opposed caster check to which you cannot increase your check in any way (except by increasing your natural caster level). As there are multiple spells in effect, you would have to beat the check on all of them to get through, which is unlikely. You would then strip your own protections. A second caster would then use Chained Greater dispel. Repeatedly. With Greater arcane sight he would be targeting any items that gave off abjuration, Transmutation, Conjuration or Necromancy auras of moderate strength or higher. The spells are buffed in their dispell check by Elven Spell Lore, giving I believe +34 to dispel. More than enough for the items we want. Again, we were using Core, as in the SRD only. And the [I]dispelling ward would negate any dispel attempts. Alternately, since the dragon is no longer immune to it, we hit the dragon with an antimagic field, we can cast epic spells into it so the build still functions. As a side note, the dragon will spend the next 100 days unable to cast spells in the event that we let it survive. When its AMF comes back up it's not immune. The dragon has a constant AMF on it. Although not mentioned above, any spells you cast have to get through that as well. Momento Mori. Jacked up DC to +100. A second casting would be prepared in the fluke event of nat 20. You would not be able to acheive such a high DC, as you would not have sufficient XP for the creation of that spell, as well as your other epic spells. Then there were the wacky ideas. Our ideal battle plan only called for 2 PC's worth of actions (Yay multispell). We figured we'd have to do something amusing with the other two if things went so smoothly. Initial plans to summon Tiamat were dashed when we found that she is immune to summoning (Though her aspect is not) So we settled for summoning and subsequently one-shotting and aspect of Tiamat. Alternately we could full out summon Demogorgon and end him for fun. Summoning might work, although the dragon could simply get rid of them with a free action using mage's disjunction. I don't know if its possible, we toyed with the idea but never committed it to numbers, Innate spell, timestop. We cast timestop once a round for as long as we like and build an unescapable deathtrap/fortress around the dragon. Was a thought. Innate Spell is out, as it is not Core. The fiend of posession is amusing in so many ways, not the least of which is the fact that, with leadership we can have a near invincible character. Trap posesser keeps the fiend inside the body of his cohort, and stilled silent spells allow him to repeatedly true res him. A party of four of these (via leadership) Kills the dragon out of sheer exaustion. Again, not core. Recently (Today) I considered 'hadou-ken' an epic destruction seed as a viable alternitive to dispel, I wonder though, can you target an abjuration with it without aiming for the center. Ie, can I shoot it at an angle to knock out your AMF without getting it deflected. For that matter, does it still destroy it if it is deflected? You could target the spell rather than the dragon, preventing deflection. That said, you would have to get through the defenses first. I could go on but I'm going to give it a break and check back in a day or two to see how many insults have been flung my way about how "I couldn't have come up with any of those ideas without seeing the dragon first." Frankly, if you feel that way, have at me. Though I will point out that the initial arguement was: I don't generally fling insults. However, I will make the observation that you appear to have a limited knowledge of epic. Secondary edit: I suppose you could argue our stats and DC's. If you want to, we can play that way, but you won't be seeing anything from me until my days off start at weeks end. *laugh*)) I do argue those, mostly because you would be unable to afford the XP and gold for everything you suggested. However, it's a moot point as you are not able to deal with the other problems you would face. |
| Caros08-13-07, 03:01 PM | Alright, I don't know how I'm even going to start refuting your post there are so many things wrong with it. Do I go top to bottom? Or Shall I start with the worst of them? Firstly, From the dragon's perspective, you are the NPCs. And having multiple PCs will not help you in using Diplomacy, unless you're considering the +2 bonus each from Aid Another. The dragon's higher ranks, ability modifiers, and more expensive equipment, on the other hand, will mean a great deal. Diplomacy is broken if not fixed. It's fine as an opposed check, as I would not be able to automatically make even gods into fanatic followers. Rather, it would allow a CR 48 dragon to deal with a mobs of much lower-level opponents (like your PCs). I was wondering how under your rules you were hoping to make a dc 150 + my ranks in the skill diplomacy check. The DC from hostile (Which I am) to helpful is dc 150. Oh, 170 actually, since you're making it as a full round action I'm assuming? Secondly. PC stands for player character does it not? Just because the dragon is a PC does not mean that we are not. NPC villians cannot use it on PC's, and if we are considered NPC's then we wouldn't be able to use it on you, but since we consider you an NPC, neither would you. Round and round we go. I agree with the arbitrarily large point. I was merely stating it is different from NI. The dragon has no equipment. It's less than half complete. Actually the dragon has spent over 1/3 of its gold. Minimum, assuming you went the intelligent way. Minimum dex for infinate deflection is 25. Your dragon has 11. +4 book, 110,000. Your epic spells, 540,000 The +10 item to get you to 25, +1,000,000. Grant total, I'll save you the math. 1,650,000. Out of 3,500,000. Your character's wealth is 47% done. =) This is assuming you buy the book. If you don't its over 2 million. You might notice that the dragon also has moment of prescience active. After equipment, I would surmise that the dragon would have a higher Dex as well. I also question your ability to have +30 initiative, as that would most likely require Dex 54, a huge financial undertaking on top of your expensive epic spells and other gear. After equipment the dragon has a dex of +7, for a total initiative of +11. We start with a +8 from supreme initiative. Add in a high starting dex (Say... 18) Our initiative is now higher than yours. We then buy a +5 book. 3 higher than yours. Put all of our points for level (9) Giving us 7 higher than you. We then buy a +14 item (1,440,000 a piece!), Putting us at +14 higher than you. (incidently we're currently at a +25) We could also buy a dagger out of Magic Item Compendium that gives a standing initiative bonus (+2 I believe), though you could have that as well so I won't count it. I will stand corrected, unless I want to spend more than I'm willing, our initiative would be +26. Realisitically though, I could also simplify things by taking a luck feat or a cleric level. Assuming our initiative is +21 we need to roll an 11 to beat your initiative. We each get one reroll. Statistically we all beat you, though we only require a max of 3 to do so. All things being equal, we beat you in initiative every time. We agreed to stick with Core to avoid problems, so that would remove Arcane Mastery. You also fail to realize the basic rule that natural 1s don't apply to skill checks, so you might want to re-evaluate many of your assumptions. Ah, Forgive me for that, I haven't reread the rules of the challenge recently. Realistically the only thing I need it for is initiative if I feel I'd rather spend a feat than take a cleric level. Everything else just makes it easier/humorous. Secondly, considering the amount of houserules you have in your epic thread and the fact that I had, at the time not re-read them, I thought it best to play safe. Thank you though, for confirming that, see below. Your epic dispel would walk into my Contingent Spell Reflection spells (automatically activated prior to combat in using [i]moment of prescience /I]for the initiative roll), bouncing back into you unless you beat an opposed caster check to which you cannot increase your check in any way (except by increasing your natural caster level). As there are multiple spells in effect, you would have to beat the check on all of them to get through, which is unlikely. You would then strip your own protections. Okay, I'm a little confused here. First off I'm confused as to why you think I would have trouble beating your caster level. Old prismatic? Caster Level 26. Group of 36th level PC's caster level? 36. Secondly, with that in mind I have two options. Option 1, I need to take 10 via the Arcane mastery, at which point I beat you unless you roll 20 and I believe the victory still goes to me (Most opposed checks tend to go to the agressor or the person with the higher base. I have both) If I lose the first time, I cast again. I have absolutely no active spells I cannot afford to lose, and with multi-spell I can afford to try again. Once I beat your Reflect seed, its gone. I dispel it on a roll of a 1, since the DC is set by you (37) And a 1 gives me exactly that. Thirdly, I was under the impression, as you berated me ages ago, that you each contingent epic spell you had active took away one. You have a maximum of what, 6? (58 hd+3.) Not that it matters all that much, just means I might have to cast more. And yes I know arcane mastery is not core. I'm including it to point out that, outside of the restrictions of the SRD this challenge is a joke Again, we were using Core, as in the SRD only. And the dispelling ward would negate any dispel attempts. Again, fine, though it wouldn't matter. Secondly, no, no it won't after my epic dispel. The dragon has a constant AMF on it. Although not mentioned above, any spells you cast have to get through that as well. We beat your AMF the same way we beat your wards. Our caster level is sigificantly higher than yours. Against our epic spell you roll a max of 1d20+20 vs our dc 47. You lose methinks. You would not be able to acheive such a high DC, as you would not have sufficient XP for the creation of that spell, as well as your other epic spells. Actually, the rod of excellent magic does a pretty good job. Not sure how many I'll need tho, I'll run the numbers at the bottom, including the xp limiter you set on it (The only thing that makes me worried.) Summoning might work, although the dragon could simply get rid of them with a free action using mage's disjunction. Err, you misunderstand me. We weren't bringing them to kill you. You're already dead and we have One to two PC's who haven't even gotten to act. We figured an epic summon spell to bring the prince of the Abyss, followed by a high DC Memento Mori to kill him would be funny. You could target the spell rather than the dragon, preventing deflection. That said, you would have to get through the defenses first. Thank you for actually providing a simple answer that I actually agree with. So far you've been lacking ^_^; I don't generally fling insults. However, I will make the observation that you appear to have a limited knowledge of epic. Actually, judging by the fact that you repeatedly insulted friends of mine in the previous thread, have repeatedly said that I "Know nothing", have said As long as foolish arguments are made, I will continue to shut them down. If a 5-year-old tells you that the earth is flat, it usually doesn't merit the need to say anything beyond "No, it's round." [quote] I would say that you generally do fling insults, which is why I am taking such an antagonistic approach as well as paticularly enjoying pointing out the flaws in your entire post. I spent less than a half hour working on this post, and considering you and the epic boards seem to consider you an expert on epic, I would think that the fact that I corrected you on your own caster level (And the weakness there of by comparison), and the uses of antimagic fields vs. epic spells (Which is to say that after level 30 there are none.), that I know at least a thing or two. Maybe my knowledge is just limited to epic spells? =) [quote=bluemage]I do argue those, mostly because you would be unable to afford the XP and gold for everything you suggested. However, it's a moot point as you are not able to deal with the other problems you would face. Okay, and here is the moneyshot ^_^; We've already mentioned my init fund. I'm gonna go with a 14 starting casting stat. Out of the 8.8 million gp each player has, we'll go with 7.36 mil is left over. I'm going to need int of 19 to be able to cast my spells. We'll start off with +4 book, and a +10 item. Int is now 30. Respectable I suppose. Not great mind you. Next we figure out my spellcraft. 92 Spellcraft = 39 Ranks + 13 (Skill focus') + 10 int + 30 item. I bought a +30 item, obviously, so chalk up 300,000 (its less but I don't want to hunt the price down at the moment.) Taking 10 my spellcraft is 102. At this point I've spent 3,500,000. Less than 1/2 my gold. I now have three epic spells to make. Firstly, dispel. Starting DC 19. I increase the DC by +40, making my minimum 41. Make the spell a quickened one The spell is DC 88. 79x9000 = 711,000. I buy a rod of excellent magic. Total cost 1,261,000 Secondly, Momento Mori. As per the book, with these changes. DC 86. -8 for killing less HD. -4 for giving is components again. DC is now 74. +68 for being able to 100% beat the dragon's SR, +68 for requiring the dragon to roll a 20 to make the save. DC is now 214. I apply the rest of my mitigating. -10 for 25,000 gp. -20 for 2000xp spent. -72 for 72d6 backlash (yay for con item!) Dc is now 108. 108x9000 = 972,000. Three rods, two to pay and one for the xp if I feel like it are, with the spell, totaled at 2,922,000. That spell has +34 to beat SR (giving me a +70 before roll) and a +34 to the DC on top of the +10 momento Mori gives, Leaving me with a fort save vs death of 74. Total cost? 7,981,000. That includes the initiative items, the stat increasers, and the epic spells and their associated costs. I have money to spare, which I put into a con item so I survive backlash. Having read the above statblock I will really quickly revise my initial attack. Combat starts, we roll initiative. Statistically at least two of us win initiative. All of them have dropped one character level for luck domain. If its allowed I take practiced spellcaster to make up the caster level, if not I suck the damage, mostly irrelivent =) The two who lost initiative reroll, giving me an even better chance of having three or even four active casters. My casters have Epic spellcasting, and Multispell 5 times. Quicken Dispel. Did it work? Quicken dispel. First caster casts two in rapid succession, making damned good and sure he succeeds. Statistically he beats the dragon easily. If he on the odd chance fails, he quicken teleports next to the dragon and readies an action to cast momento mori. If he succeeds, he teleports next to the dragon, quickens an antimagic field and casts momento mori, killing the dragon unless it rolls a 1. Second caster. If he gets to go its because the first caster failed to dispel the dragon completely. He dispels, then closes antimagic feilds (To disable the items, which are no longer immune since the dragon's wards are gone.) and Momento Mori's. Well, do what you can. I believe I covered every loophole. And the above my friend, is completely core. |
| Aluroon08-13-07, 07:54 PM | Congrats... building specifically and only to beat the dragon you can do so... if you win initiative, on a wide open plain, with 4 spellcasters, if it doesn't surprise you and shred you in melee because of your crappy AC, saves, and immunities. Hurry for glass cannons. |
| Caros08-14-07, 10:31 AM | Congrats... building specifically and only to beat the dragon you can do so... if you win initiative, on a wide open plain, with 4 spellcasters, if it doesn't surprise you and shred you in melee because of your crappy AC, saves, and immunities. Hurry for glass cannons. Actually. Short of things naturally immune to death effects, this build beats most creatures you can find in D&D. Switching Momento Mori for an energy drain effect is even worse because at that point most creatures are not even getting a save. The open plain is to ensure fairness. I don't think its a relitively fair challenge of 4 pcs vs. An old prismatic dragon if we have to head through its lair, dealing with traps and hordes of minions because that would actually be several additional encounters which have nothing to do with the thought of "Can a party beat a dragon WELL above their CR." There is no "If" We can win initiative. If you'd read my post you'd see that the chances of the dragon beating all four pc's in initiative are close to nil. The dragon cannot surprise me due to the foresight spell. It could kill a max of one of my party members in melee in one round, since I am not a moron and would not have them all stand close together to get slaughtered. A glass cannon is perhaps acurate, its kind of the whole point behind the build. That said I'd like to point out that I actually acompished my goal of killing something 12 CR higher than me, making my point quite soundly. CR at epic does not work. That dragon would slaughter a group of fighters without fly, or epic mages without the makeup I used (Or one of a few others) And yet falls without a whimper to mine. CR doesn't work. |
| Caros08-14-07, 10:49 AM | And while I'm at it, I'll point out that the imunities on the dragon are its fundimental flaw. D&D is not a defensive game at heart, its proactive. Just look at attack roll vs. AC. Assuming both have the same modifier, the person who rolls will win a tiny fraction more often than the AC character who always has a set number. This dragon's problem is that it works off the idea of "HAHAHA, I'm immune to your pathetic attacks and will rend you at my leasuire." Just look at its epic spells for confirmation. They are all defensive, the whole build itself is defensive, the deflection chain instead of something to attack, A contingency based off HP loss. Unfortunately it isn't immune. It has six epic spell reflections, Statistically it loses around the 2-4th epic dispel we cast, and all of its buffs are gone. We'll have lost our buffs, but we don't need them as the dragon is now dead. A better build for the dragon would have been an initiative twink, or something evasive, Contingent teleport based off it being subjected to an epic dispel might be a good idea. Or perhaps etherealness, something to allow it to survive. It doesn't help that the dragon is one creature. Single strong creatures in D&D have always suffered lack of actions. This is even more brutal at epic with mages where they get 6 spells a round. |
| PrinceOfTheVoid08-16-07, 12:23 PM | Somehow, I fail to see how a party of identical, min-maxed, 1-shot characters is in any indicative of the capabilities of a standard party at their level. I highly doubt that there is any monster in the game that can't be taken down in one round in a 1v4 fight against four identical casters specifically engineered to igonre any of its advantages and capitalize on all of its disadvantages. Hell, look at the Xixecal, a 25th level wizard could solo that thing easily, if it was built specifically to win initiative and spam metamagicked fire spells. In short, the entire idea behind this challenge is faulted as no 35th level party that was actually played up from level 1 by 4 individuals who had no knowledge that they would eventually be fighting an Old Prismatic Dragon, would ever stand a chance in this fight. |
| Caros08-17-07, 04:36 AM | Ah, so now you're getting into the arguement that this is not a roleplay party, which might I add, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the challenge presented to me. How about a cabal of high level wizards? Since none of thier pre-epic spell list is decided except moment of precience they could be completely different in that regards. When they reach epic they decide to create a standard for spells that will help them to defeat near any creature they are forced to battle. For that matter, I'd like to point out that the PC's in this instance are supposed to know they are fighting a prismatic. So you could just as easily argue that they did build the spells to beat it. I highly doubt that there is any monster in the game that can't be taken down in one round in a 1v4 fight against four identical casters specifically engineered to igonre any of its advantages and capitalize on all of its disadvantages. Exactly. Well, nearly.The whole basis behind this challenge was that CR is meaningless once you reach epic. This party wipes the floor with the dragon without so much as trying. Yet I've seen 50th level parties that would get ripped to shreds in an instant because they couldn't fly or teleport. You seem to think that this is just me bragging about how I could beat a prismatic dragon. Its really not, its me bringing the rules to bare to show that CR at epic is at best a streached guideline. Oh, and a side note. No this isn't indicitive of a standard party of its level. Neither is an old prismatic with twinked out epic spellcasting. Keep in mind that excluding my tactic this dragon is near invincible. If you want to talk about if a regular party could beat a prismatic dragon, then I'll happily work up a more balanced party that could beat the book statted prismatic with the same streach of CR |
| Aluroon08-17-07, 11:21 AM | Exactly. Well, nearly.The whole basis behind this challenge was that CR is meaningless once you reach epic. This party wipes the floor with the dragon without so much as trying. Yet I've seen 50th level parties that would get ripped to shreds in an instant because they couldn't fly or teleport. Bullcrap. CR is always a guideline, I've seen a level 15 party annihilate a CR 20 but fall to a CR 12. It ALWAYS depends on what the party's makeup is. And for the record your retarded uber-party dies to undead, gods, cosmic beings, or anyone naturally immune to death effects or with contingencies in effect to dodge your dispels. Your a one trick pony. |
| Becket08-19-07, 03:19 AM | Wow, so much anger... I believe the challenge he took was to create a party of 4 epic level characters to specifically kill an Old Prismatic Dragon. Why be so hard on him for doing it? =P |
| bluemage5508-19-07, 07:08 AM | I was wondering how under your rules you were hoping to make a dc 150 + my ranks in the skill diplomacy check. The DC from hostile (Which I am) to helpful is dc 150. Oh, 170 actually, since you're making it as a full round action I'm assuming? 1. Where in the world are you getting your DCs? Hostile to helpful is DC 50. 2. It's not your ranks in Diplomacy that matter, it's your opposed check. 3. The goal is not necessarily to end the fight with Diplomacy. Making the opponents Indifferent might work. 4. Using Diplomacy as a full-round action entails a -10 penalty to the check, not +20 to the DC. 5. Diplomacy is an option, not the primary tactic. Secondly. PC stands for player character does it not? Just because the dragon is a PC does not mean that we are not. NPC villians cannot use it on PC's, and if we are considered NPC's then we wouldn't be able to use it on you, but since we consider you an NPC, neither would you. Round and round we go. The Diplomacy skill specifies NPCs only because the assumption is that most games involve players interacting with DM supplied NPCs. When players interact with other players that are not on their on team, however, this has to be changed or it simply becomes a moot skill. Actually the dragon has spent over 1/3 of its gold. Minimum, assuming you went the intelligent way. Minimum dex for infinate deflection is 25. Your dragon has 11. +4 book, 110,000. Your epic spells, 540,000 The +10 item to get you to 25, +1,000,000. That's not the intelligent way. To being with, using a +5 book, and only a +9 item would be better. Secondly, an epic buffing spell that lasts multiple days would be better than the +9 item. We start with a +8 from supreme initiative. Add in a high starting dex (Say... 18) Our initiative is now higher than yours. We then buy a +5 book. 3 higher than yours. Put all of our points for level (9) Giving us 7 higher than you. We then buy a +14 item (1,440,000 a piece!), Putting us at +14 higher than you. (incidently we're currently at a +25) We could also buy a dagger out of Magic Item Compendium that gives a standing initiative bonus (+2 I believe), though you could have that as well so I won't count it. The duel was to be Core only, and the dragon makes use of material only from within Core. Don't bother referencing outside material. It would cost 100,000 gp to grab an epic item providing Supreme Initiative for the dragon. Okay, I'm a little confused here. First off I'm confused as to why you think I would have trouble beating your caster level. Old prismatic? Caster Level 26. Group of 36th level PC's caster level? 36. Because you have to beat each and every of the 6 reflection spells in place, meaning that if you get unlucky on a single one, you debuff yourself and the dragon is not harmed. Secondly, with that in mind I have two options. Option 1, I need to take 10 via the Arcane mastery, at which point I beat you unless you roll 20 and I believe the victory still goes to me (Most opposed checks tend to go to the agressor or the person with the higher base. I have both) Not allowed. If I lose the first time, I cast again. I have absolutely no active spells I cannot afford to lose, and with multi-spell I can afford to try again. You will only have 3 epic spells per character to throw. If you have no active spells you cannot afford to lose, you can expect to die horribly. Once I beat your Reflect seed, its gone. I dispel it on a roll of a 1, since the DC is set by you (37) And a 1 gives me exactly that. You do not beat the 6 reflection spell unless you use an epic spell that gets through all 6 targetting the dragon, and even then, you would need to make a dispel check against each of the dragon's active spells. On top of that, you would not affect any of the dragon's items, which would be the ones making your one-hit kills impossible. Thirdly, I was under the impression, as you berated me ages ago, that you each contingent epic spell you had active took away one. You have a maximum of what, 6? (58 hd+3.) Not that it matters all that much, just means I might have to cast more. Maximum is indeed 6. There are 6 active contingent epic spells. The dragon does not intend to throw offensive epic spells. And yes I know arcane mastery is not core. I'm including it to point out that, outside of the restrictions of the SRD this challenge is a joke No it isn't, because if I were to use material from anywhere, you would be facing an impossible challenge, depending on exactly which infinite loop I decided to use. We beat your AMF the same way we beat your wards. Our caster level is sigificantly higher than yours. Against our epic spell you roll a max of 1d20+20 vs our dc 47. You lose methinks. I don't roll anything. The dragon does not use any epic dispelling spells, but will make use of mage's disjunction if you do had not spent the money to be immune to it. Err, you misunderstand me. We weren't bringing them to kill you. You're already dead and we have One to two PC's who haven't even gotten to act. We figured an epic summon spell to bring the prince of the Abyss, followed by a high DC Memento Mori to kill him would be funny. You assume much. Such as the fact that merely dispelling the dragon's wards (improbable with a single PC as that would be) would make it vulnerable to a death effect. Glass cannon build Even upon defeating the dragon's personal wards, the dragon will still have a death ward item or 10 protected from AMF with the Dispelling Ward spell. The dragon will thus be immune to your kill. |
| control freak08-20-07, 11:39 PM | shadow casters, or something slightly more broken, pun pun= gg |
| bluemage5508-21-07, 09:25 AM | shadow casters, or something slightly more broken, pun pun= gg Right, which is why you don't allow such crap. |
| Khayar08-22-07, 12:02 PM | *studies with interest* Now this was fun. I've always considered the Prism's nigh unkillable. Proven wrong. And very wrong at that. |
| Aluroon08-22-07, 05:48 PM | *studies with interest* Now this was fun. I've always considered the Prism's nigh unkillable. Proven wrong. And very wrong at that. Hardly unkillable, but not easy assuming you play the dragon according to its high mental ability scores and with its enormous wealth. Even Carlos's tweak build has a less then 50% chance of success. |
| control freak08-22-07, 09:36 PM | not easly killed accept by a first level kobold ardent or a shadow caster, or a epic level wizard party that makes a single stupidly powerful epic spell, or more resonable feats imp init +4 quick recconoiter +2 epic imp init +8 sudden feats dex min 22 +6 5 from nerve skitter unless you rule it takes your swift action to do so so either +20 or + 25.... and as for HPs... thats actualy weak... (stares at his epic orb of force....) Meta magic school focus, practial twin, sudden max, sudden emp, sudden quicken sudden, a single orb of force, that happens... then the remaining wizards go (come come now thats any where from 4 orbs from each player x4 players or 4 orbs of force x6 players suped up i go first wizards...) so lets do math now 24 orbs of force, 22 d6+ 1d3 maximized = 125 damage x 24 = 3000, thats enough for 2 of those dragons, i win gg :rolleyes: (this all assumes that the wizards dont roll like a 1 on init and the dragon then rolls a 20) granted, beating the dragon requires the old "forwarned is forarmed" idea also this ignores the fact that it probably will not get a round (even with 4 people it can be done just less easy) oh yah and all thats after some one epic dispels or chained dispel to buff drop it, and this isnt that hard epic should be, ok your casters? roll init, you win, roll init, you win, roll init WOOT nat 1 and 20 i kill you all gg and 20 + dispells will beat the stupid reflective shields |
| bluemage5508-23-07, 02:43 AM | not easly killed accept by a first level kobold ardent or a shadow caster, or a epic level wizard party that makes a single stupidly powerful epic spell, or more resonable Pun-Pun is not an argument. Everything is easily killed by an infinite loop, and DMs with brains ban those anyway. A "stupidly powerful epic spell" is probably not following the rules. feats imp init +4 quick recconoiter +2 epic imp init +8 sudden feats dex min 22 +6 5 from nerve skitter unless you rule it takes your swift action to do so so either +20 or + 25.... and as for HPs... thats actualy weak... (stares at his epic orb of force....) Meta magic school focus, practial twin, sudden max, sudden emp, sudden quicken sudden, a single orb of force, that happens... then the remaining wizards go (come come now thats any where from 4 orbs from each player x4 players or 4 orbs of force x6 players suped up i go first wizards...) so lets do math now 24 orbs of force, 22 d6+ 1d3 maximized = 125 damage x 24 = 3000, thats enough for 2 of those dragons, i win gg :rolleyes: (this all assumes that the wizards dont roll like a 1 on init and the dragon then rolls a 20) granted, beating the dragon requires the old "forwarned is forarmed" idea also this ignores the fact that it probably will not get a round (even with 4 people it can be done just less easy) oh yah and all thats after some one epic dispels or chained dispel to buff drop it, and this isnt that hard epic should be, ok your casters? roll init, you win, roll init, you win, roll init WOOT nat 1 and 20 i kill you all gg and 20 + dispells will beat the stupid reflective shields And have you no idea what I could do with every source at my disposal too? The dragon I presented was limited to Core materials for the sake of simplicity. Also, it is important to note that no amount of non-epic dispels will ever get through the dragon's defenses. Epic dispels do have a chance, but a very low one, and you can only fire off a limited number. Finally, the dragon can deflect orbs of force all day long with absolutely no effort. In your words, "GG". :rolleyes: |
| Aluroon08-23-07, 03:32 PM | Finally, the dragon can deflect orbs of force all day long with absolutely no effort. In your words, "GG". :rolleyes: Only deflect? What fun is that, its much more fun to watch them fly back into the wizards face... Whats sad is I remember when I was like him, and thought epic wizards with certain spells could destroy everything with no trouble at all. I remember when I thought orbs were the bomb. Man I was pathetic back then. |
| control freak08-23-07, 04:50 PM | vorpal kills this right? if so just grab up a group of 4 people with 2 wheps vorpal(and possibly speed) wheps with blessed oils preapplied with something like ftr10/dervish 10/montebank 10/ barbarian 2/ 4 open levels full TWF tree, and init feats, and luck feat or 2 BAB (assuming at least 3/4 BAB class) 32/27/22/17/12/7/2 times 2 for TWF times 2 for dervish so thats 28 attacks (not even counting haste/speed) with a 5% (or 10% if using the 1 to a 20 luck feat) montebank can help on the first round as its immediate dim door 2x durring the battle will buy you at least a turn and the barbarian pounce totem will give you the ablity to do full attack or dervish dance so basicaly if you trick them out for init and they go first (even if they dont they get immediate actions.. so might live) so assuming it kills it (i know its anti climactic but doesnt it?) you need to roll a 1 or a 20 and have over a 100 rolls to do so... and theres plenty of ways to drop an AMF, epic dispel is just one way to do it (and the inablity to arcane thesis is stupid, as we auto beat the dragon with it and a spell penetration feat..)\ only other question, cant you just wish the dragon away or merical a way to kill it (or gate in a great wyrm one of them?) |
| Caros08-24-07, 02:16 PM | Hehe, good to see there are at least SOME people who actually note that, regardless of the cheap method of doing it I DID complete the goal as stated, Killing a creature who, by the CR rules, I should not be able to. Now, lot of replies so I'll start at the top and work down. Bullcrap. CR is always a guideline, I've seen a level 15 party annihilate a CR 20 but fall to a CR 12. It ALWAYS depends on what the party's makeup is. And for the record your retarded uber-party dies to undead, gods, cosmic beings, or anyone naturally immune to death effects or with contingencies in effect to dodge your dispels. Your a one trick pony. Err, Alu... you just made my point. My point was the CR is not an accurate guideline. A CR 12 creature, as the CR rules go, should not at all be a threat to a 15th level party. And the CR 20 should be near impossible. That was my point, that CR guidelines don't take into account party tactics. Take this example. I've seen a frenzied berserker with a healer as backup who took down some nasty CR 22 baddies at 15th leve because they couldn't kill the berzerker. I've seen the same group fall to a CR 9 mage because they couldn't beat improved invis. ^_^; Secondly. My party doesn't necessarily die to undead. Keep in mind they are 4 high level mages who go first, they just don't have access to their main attack form. And yes, that is their inherent weakness, as in the example above I can think of CR 20ish creatures/npc's who could beat them. Proving that CR doesn't work. Contingencies are another point. If the dragon had anti-dispel contingencies he'd actually win, which once again points out that even a slight change in tactics can completely change a battle, thus showing how difficult it is to appropriately judge CR. And gods? *Eye rolls* I'm aware that this build can't beat a god, though I must say, using that as an example is kinda funny. Thats the equivilent of me talking about a tenth level character build and you bringing out the tarasque, kind of out there know what I mean? Next up. Bluemage! 1. Where in the world are you getting your DCs? Hostile to helpful is DC 50. 2. It's not your ranks in Diplomacy that matter, it's your opposed check. 3. The goal is not necessarily to end the fight with Diplomacy. Making the opponents Indifferent might work. 4. Using Diplomacy as a full-round action entails a -10 penalty to the check, not +20 to the DC. 5. Diplomacy is an option, not the primary tactic. You're correct on most of that. Tired when I wrote that post so there are errors and somewhat idiotic bits ^_^; 1. I meant hostile to fanatic, which is what you were attempting. Oh, and two words against fanatic btw. Mind Blank. 2. I realize it was my opposed check, though I seem to have written the wrong thing. *Shrug* Actually makes it worse =/ 3. Err, Sure, you're going with helpful now since you realize fanatic is impossible? =) 4. So it is. My bad. 5. O...kay? The Diplomacy skill specifies NPCs only because the assumption is that most games involve players interacting with DM supplied NPCs. When players interact with other players that are not on their on team, however, this has to be changed or it simply becomes a moot skill. Actually I was under the impression that diplomacy specified NPC's because players actually get to choose what the hell they do? Diplomacy was made as a way to mechanically influence npcs. However, players get to make the decisions about what their characters do. I cannot use diplomacy in a game, turn to my friend at a table and say "I rolled higher than 6, so now you have to do what I say." The only time a character is out of a players control is abilities that outright take control of the character. That's not the intelligent way. To being with, using a +5 book, and only a +9 item would be better. Secondly, an epic buffing spell that lasts multiple days would be better than the +9 item. Hmm, I was under the impression that all stat enhancing items were required to be even. Never seen an odd one is all *shrug* Epic buff spell might be useful, though it does cost 650,000 right off if you don't have the xp. And depending on the day it would limit the dragon's defences (Every so often he would only have 5 contingencies up.) The duel was to be Core only, and the dragon makes use of material only from within Core. Don't bother referencing outside material. It would cost 100,000 gp to grab an epic item providing Supreme Initiative for the dragon. *Shrug* I get a kick out of pointing out how much easier it would be to kill you non-core. If you'd like to come up with a dragon build non-core as well feel free. So far nothing you've shown me has negated the fact that we'd go first and kill you. And we specifically outruled the infinate builds, though unless you have it already active, I believe most of the infinate builds (Excluding pun-pun which you can't BE incidently) die since they lose init anyways. And what epic item is this? I'm actually curious (Did a quick scan but can't seem to find it. The introduction of said item means a couple of things for me. I'd either have to go with an epic spell to get my dex, I didn't want to as its so much easier to just use items. That or I go with plan B. Spell-stowaway timestop. If one of our group wins initiative, we all do. This was suggested by a friend of mine so I'm still sort of fuzzy on the mechanics of it, but I believe that their initiatives would come up in timestop, allowing them all to ready dispels. Timestop ends, the dragon is hit by three dispels, then the pc who won init gets to play. ^_^; Because you have to beat each and every of the 6 reflection spells in place, meaning that if you get unlucky on a single one, you debuff yourself and the dragon is not harmed. Actually I find this sort of funny. Statistically I do fail, Its an opposed caster level check 36 vs 26. I need to roll ten higher than you, and over six rolls I know that odds are in your favor. Now lets say I succeed, succeed, fail. Next time I cast a dispel, I have to beat 5 of them. Dunno if you read your own spell, but it specifies that "A single successful use of reflect expends its protection." If I have 8 epic dispels over 4 characters, Assuming I fail on all of them I still have a dispel left over. Need to make sure I beat you in init I guess. Oh wait, even assuming you get your supreme init, I have a +10 higher dex than you and the ability to reroll. ^_^; You will only have 3 epic spells per character to throw. If you have no active spells you cannot afford to lose, you can expect to die horribly. I have no spells I cannot afford to lose because you will never get to move. You do not beat the 6 reflection spell unless you use an epic spell that gets through all 6 targetting the dragon, and even then, you would need to make a dispel check against each of the dragon's active spells. On top of that, you would not affect any of the dragon's items, which would be the ones making your one-hit kills impossible. Read above for the reflection. You obviously either didn't read my last post, or don't understand dispelling very well. Dispel checks are 1d20 + Bonus. In my case the bonus is 1d20+41 (See my epic spell.) I roll this against a set DC of your caster level +11. Your caster level is 26. That means DC 37. Nat 1's do not affect caster level checks. So yes, I do need to roll against all of your active spells. Wow, look at that, I beat them all! And you're right. I don't affect any of your items. However considering I did get the active spells on them, they are now vunerable to Antimagic Field. They are supressed. I don't roll anything. The dragon does not use any epic dispelling spells, but will make use of mage's disjunction if you do had not spent the money to be immune to it. *Sigh* Page 73 of the ELH. We were commenting on your arguement that "Our epic spells would have to get through your AMF". If you read, Antimagic field does not supress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead you make a caster level check, 1d20+20 Vs my epic spell. If you fail, my spell goes through the field. Get it now? And, once again. I don't need to be immune to anything. You are dead. You assume much. Such as the fact that merely dispelling the dragon's wards (improbable with a single PC as that would be) would make it vulnerable to a death effect. I believe I already pointed all this out above. Even upon defeating the dragon's personal wards, the dragon will still have a death ward item or 10 protected from AMF with the Dispelling Ward spell. The dragon will thus be immune to your kill. Once again, The dispel, amusingly enough, dispels your dispelling ward. Hardly unkillable, but not easy assuming you play the dragon according to its high mental ability scores and with its enormous wealth. Even Carlos's tweak build has a less then 50% chance of success. Where do you get your numbers exactly? ^_^; The dragon has 3.5 million. That is LESS than even one pc. Most high level casters equal the dragon in at least one ability score, And as I've pointed out, when it comes down to straight combat the dragon's ability scores count for nothing. Yes the dragon could technically work up some fiendish trap filled lair, send waves of attacks and whatnot. Then again, so can PC's they just don't do it often. One of my amusing side builds is to have PC's just summon and call hundreds of monsters and send them in waves to wear down the dragon's spell reserves before going to fight it. =) And finally, less than 50%? Statistically I beat the dragon with all of my pc's in initiative. With this in mind I dispel it by the 3rd pc's round at the latest. He then kills it. How is that less than 50%? And Caros. Not Carlos, Its an english name for cryin out loud =) Only deflect? What fun is that, its much more fun to watch them fly back into the wizards face... Whats sad is I remember when I was like him, and thought epic wizards with certain spells could destroy everything with no trouble at all. I remember when I thought orbs were the bomb. Man I was pathetic back then. Alright, I quoted you, though that whole thing bares mentioning. Need to wrap this up. First off, I believe I have actually pointed out that epic casters can, with the right set of epic spells, kill nearly anything. ^_^; Secondly. He is actually right. The dispels get rid of the epic dragon's defences. This includes foresight which means the dragon is flatfooted since it hasn't acted yet. You can't deflect if you are flat-footed. =) Anywho. Ta ta for now. =) |
| rob_douglas08-24-07, 03:49 PM | The biggest problem with all this CR doesn't work examples is that it doesn't represent what CR is supposed to represent. CR is a rough gauge of how much a challenge something is to an iconic party - 1 wizard, 1 cleric, 1 fighter, 1 rogue. There are party roles that need to be put in here that make the challenge work. If you play around with party composition, then the CR system will favor some builds more, and others less. In the case of a CR48 dragon, the idea that you start out, aware, and within range, and just rolling init is ridiculous. The DM does and should tailor challenges to the party, after seeing what they can do. If they are one hit wonders or one-shots, use a couple of Simluacrums, illusions, summonings to get them to waste their spells early. If a group of wizards spends 8 dispells only to realize they weren't fighting the real dragon, they could have some problems. CR is definitely not a measure of what happens when the 2 groups get into a dueling arena. Dragons are good at mobility, and knowing you are there before you know they are there. If they can't use that, they aren't living up to their CR. ROB |
| Caros08-24-07, 05:01 PM | Eh, even in the best case scenario, CR tends to be skewed at epic levels. For example, a 48th level party that did not have an epic dispel would still be screwed by this dragon ((Though I'd argue this is a much higher level dragon because of its spent gold and optimized feats.)) A party that didn't take flying gear would be destroyed by a prismatic. Hell, at low levels a party that does have flying gear and works at it can kill the tarasque well below its CR. The idea that a DM has to tailor an encounter to the party defeats the point of CR. CR was meant as a "Look at this number, if its close to your party it can be an encounter." Unfortunately it doesn't do that. |
| BillTheManiac08-24-07, 07:55 PM | I've got to agree with rob. Saying "this party can beat CR 46 but lose to CR 20" doesn't say something about the CR system. It says something about your party. It says "your party is made of four identical characters." |
| Caros08-25-07, 10:42 AM | Okay, and my previous example, the two characters who could beat things well above their CR, and fall to things well below? CR does not take tactics into mind, and thats its greatest flaw. Hell, one of the easiest CR fixes I've ever seen was a project that appended tactics adjustment to creatures. Fighting a golem? +1-4 cr depending on how many casters your party has. Fighting a dragon? +1 per character that can't fly etc. What about the party consisting of A crit based fighter, a rogue, a will save based mage, and I dunno, a favored soul. Undead is the absolute bane of such a party, in that an equal CR challenge (Say... the Monsters Manual vampire) and x creature of equal CR, The secondary creature might actually be as difficult as its CR implies, while the vampire is nowhere near the 'challenge' its supposed to be. My arguement is that CR, as a system, cannot account for tactics, weaknesses and the like. I don't know how to fix it, I honestly don't know if it can be, but this whole thread for me was started on the preface the CR is not the end all determination of difficulty. |
| IdleAltruism08-26-07, 02:32 AM | The CR system doesn't change because the party is not a standard party. As a DM you should adjust encounters accordingly, if a party just couldn't handle X then the DM probably shouldn't throw it at them. If you play with a group regularly you get a feeling for what they can handle and their strengths and weaknesses. A golems CR already factors in the fact that its immune to spells and crits. Its really not that big of an issue and regular casters can normally bypass it fairly easily(rogues not so easily but its doable, especially late level). If a party makes themselves crit mongering will save maged I can destroy you if you're not immune to X, then they should probably prepare themselves for those immune to X. If they didn't its really is their own fault, a party should try to cover its weaknesses.. The CR systems kind of does count for tactics, most monsters played with a medium intelligence do just about what their CR indicates. Dragons are a good example of the CR system doing backflips with the right combos, higher up dragons can prove much more difficult if played well and with the right spells/feats. It can be difficult to run these sort of monsters effectively without totally wiping the party or making it way to easy for them. Really it comes down to being the Dms job to understand the monster, its capabilities, and his groups abilities. You could really mess with a party with intelligent foes, being the all knowing DM along with the excuse of them being smart could make an encounter way above a listed CR. But again its really DM discretion. Its a balancing act and a rough system, especially with all the splat books. But it works well enough that people new to the game can generally run out of the MM monsters. Its not really that big of an issue, even at epic level its a rough system but still generally useful. Epic games require more work as a DM anyways so it may be a juggling act to start, but you get the hang of it eventually. Thats just my :twocents: |
| Tequila_Sunrise08-26-07, 11:58 PM | I'd like to point out a little something from my POV. Dragons, along with most BBEG-monsters, seem to be designed with the intent of moderating the power of offensive magic. Case in point, they have all good saves and SR. While there are, especially at epic levels, ways to get around high saves and SR it seems apparent to me that a party of all warriors or all clerics should be better suited to deal with a mega-dragon than a party of all wizards. So when Caros chooses a party of all wizards to take down this mega dragon, I can't help thinking that something is wrong somewhere. |
| Caros08-27-07, 10:50 AM | I'd like to point out a little something from my POV. Dragons, along with most BBEG-monsters, seem to be designed with the intent of moderating the power of offensive magic. Case in point, they have all good saves and SR. While there are, especially at epic levels, ways to get around high saves and SR it seems apparent to me that a party of all warriors or all clerics should be better suited to deal with a mega-dragon than a party of all wizards. So when Caros chooses a party of all wizards to take down this mega dragon, I can't help thinking that something is wrong somewhere. Actually the idea behind the party of wizards was that it was ironicly the most simple. While we have a functional fighter build that can take down this dragon, it requires a LOT more work to manage than the simple beatstick of a core mage. Part of this is inherant in that, specifically in core, mages outstrip fighters. Moreover, when fighting a spellcaster like a dragon, one has to assume that it is fully buffed. Your average fighter against this dragon, runs up, hits its AMF, and is trounced. Hell, most fighters wouldn't be able to harm the dragon since it likely has anti-life shell cast =/ You want power? You go with casters. That said, I believe it is possible to work this build with clerics as well, just a little more complicated. Have to work with your domains and figure out a way to buff your spellcraft other than int. And finally, I just noticed that this dragon has one hilarious weakpoint. Leave. *grins* Roll for initiative, the dragon uses its moment of precience, activating all six of its contingent defensive spells. We leave and come back 12 hours later when those spells are no longer working. It will take nearly 2 years for the dragon to recast them all. *Snickers* And people say I'm twinky. |
| SokenzanMarauder08-27-07, 01:52 PM | BlueMage designs an Old (CR 48) Prismatic dragon complete with about 3.5 Million in treasure to spend however he wants, defending his lair and self. We design 4 level 36 characters with lvl 36 equipment starting in a town. Both will be built using only the SRD and BLUEMAGE'S own Epic SRD revision thread. Caros, I think you have to make new wizards. -Gene |
| Caros08-27-07, 04:14 PM | Err, I think you need to read the rest of the thread. ^_^; This was pointed out in bluemage's first reply and I commented that it wasn't necesary and removed it. The build that I used to topple the dragon used only the SRD. |
| SokenzanMarauder08-27-07, 06:13 PM | Err, I think you need to read the rest of the thread. ^_^; This was pointed out in bluemage's first reply and I commented that it wasn't necesary and removed it. The build that I used to topple the dragon used only the SRD. Ah, okay. Sorry 'bout that, I didn't notice it. :D -Gene |
| BillTheManiac08-27-07, 07:37 PM | I think the CR system, which determines XP, should not change based on the party composition. Rather only EL, which determines what level of party should face it, should be effected. This means you don't get more XP for being a clericless party in an undead-heavy adventure, which is fair, because it encourages players to make more effective groups. |
| Caros08-28-07, 10:49 AM | And just a side note I considered while I was at work today. For all those comments regarding the fact that my party is sort of a 1-3/day kinda party, I'd like to point out that, the way this dragon is statted, it can only fight effectively once every two years without its main anti-spell defence being non-functional ^_^; Well my problem has never really been with the XP gain (Though now that you mention it, that is VERY true.) My problem lies in the fact that once you reach epic, its impossible for CR to accurately judge the difficulty of an opponent. The more options the PC's have, the more variables there are, and eventually you reach a point where you cannot predict what even an average "Iconic" party would be. Take this dragon. CR 48. At level 48, some parties, paticularly a party with a single high initiative mage who has an epic dispel, will trounce it. On the other hand, take a party who's mage and cleric specialized in metamagic. They can't use MDJ against the dragon, and unless they're build to fight in anti-magic, they die. Same dragon, one ability makes the difference. Just like the ability to see invisible, determine between illusions, immunities etc. Once you reach epic its hard to determine these things. Also, while reading for this post I noticed one more bit of amusement that can be added to my above "Kill the dragon" Each spell cast at the dragon that is reflected, expends a use of its reflection. Way to go prismatic, 600 days of work, brought down by six magic missile castings. ^_^ |
| bluemage5508-31-07, 01:05 AM | And just a side note I considered while I was at work today. For all those comments regarding the fact that my party is sort of a 1-3/day kinda party, I'd like to point out that, the way this dragon is statted, it can only fight effectively once every two years without its main anti-spell defence being non-functional ^_^; There's no reason to assume that the first opponent you encounter is the dragon. The remaining wealth is more than enough to do things like make illusions or body-doubles that can draw fire. The dragon also does not have to activate its contingency unless it percieves some sort of grave threat to itself. [Well my problem has never really been with the XP gain (Though now that you mention it, that is VERY true.) My problem lies in the fact that once you reach epic, its impossible for CR to accurately judge the difficulty of an opponent. The more options the PC's have, the more variables there are, and eventually you reach a point where you cannot predict what even an average "Iconic" party would be. CR serves as a guideline, and it falls apart as either the PCs or the DM's monsters are too far ahead the other in optimization and available sources. As long as the DM optimizes their monsters as well as the PCs, the CR system remains reasonably accurate. As levels go up, however, the variability for any given PC or monster is going to increase as well, decreasing the effectiveness of CR as a guideline. Still, the CR isn't really defective simply because certain monsters can't get around certain challenges. The tarrasque can be eventually beaten by a low-level party with flying and a scroll of wish. Does that mean it's not CR 20? Of course not. Because when you use the tarrasqe in a manner that befits its CR, it's going to be underground, or rampaging through a city, and that low-level party will be unable to survive or prevent massive casualties. [Take this dragon. CR 48. At level 48, some parties, paticularly a party with a single high initiative mage who has an epic dispel, will trounce it. Again, only if this mage is lucky enough to get through all of the contingent spell reflections. [ Also, while reading for this post I noticed one more bit of amusement that can be added to my above "Kill the dragon" Each spell cast at the dragon that is reflected, expends a use of its reflection. Way to go prismatic, 600 days of work, brought down by six magic missile castings. ^_^ Woops, forgot about that. I suppose that I would instead spend much more additional wealth developing a permanent version instead. That would also fix the time problem, as the dragon would tack on additional layers every time it has a free 100 days. |
| Gemstone08-31-07, 03:29 AM | The biggest problem with this challenge, IMO; is the fact that both parties use "Casting time x days". That easily gets ridiculus, as you can basicly lower any epic spell DC to 20-40. You should've put up a day limit or something :) |
| bluemage5508-31-07, 03:41 AM | The biggest problem with this challenge, IMO; is the fact that both parties use "Casting time x days". That easily gets ridiculus, as you can basicly lower any epic spell DC to 20-40. You should've put up a day limit or something :) Really? I don't ever think Caros posted a build or complete epic spell. ;) That said, it's not unreasonable for a prismatic dragon, with its greatly extended lifespan and most likely safe lair, to develop a spell that requires 100 days to cast. |
| Gemstone08-31-07, 04:24 AM | Really? I don't ever think Caros posted a build or complete epic spell. ;) So! Have you any idea how much you rescemble him?!? *Mutters incorherently about the infinite abyss and various other alien planes* [/idiocy] That said, it's not unreasonable for a prismatic dragon, with its greatly extended lifespan and most likely safe lair, to develop a spell that requires 100 days to cast. While that is true, it's still something of an unbalancer... that's the major problem with the epic spellcasting system... good spells get EXTREMELY high DC's, without weird reductions. For bluemage55's eyes only: I've been toying with the idea to limit Epic spells DC to CL+20, as it removes the insane idea about having such spells. I'm currently running an epic campaign (see this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=915310) thread) and it will be the testing ground for that. |
| Uberman08-31-07, 05:04 PM | There's no reason to assume that the first opponent you encounter is the dragon. The remaining wealth is more than enough to do things like make illusions or body-doubles that can draw fire. The dragon also does not have to activate its contingency unless it percieves some sort of grave threat to itself. And yet there's reason to assume that we're the only encounter the DRAGON has faced in the last 600 days? The purpose of this excercise was a full-powered, TWINKED dragon (made by you) vs a full-power, twinked party (made by us). Also, you stated nothing about illusions(True seeing FTW) or body-doubles (How do you get these without Epic Spells?) Also, if the dragon does NOT activate it's contingency upon rolling initiative, then the party wins initiative (If he rolls a 20, and we roll a 1... We get +25 from OUR moment of presience, meaning we have 26 vs his 20, and I HIGHLY doubt that the dragon has a better Dexterity than the mages.. And since Dex checks don't have a "Nat 1 auto-fails, Nat 20 Auto-succeeds" rule.. 4 mages going first when you DON'T have your epic spells up means dead dragon. CR serves as a guideline, and it falls apart as either the PCs or the DM's monsters are too far ahead the other in optimization and available sources. As long as the DM optimizes their monsters as well as the PCs, the CR system remains reasonably accurate. As levels go up, however, the variability for any given PC or monster is going to increase as well, decreasing the effectiveness of CR as a guideline. Still, the CR isn't really defective simply because certain monsters can't get around certain challenges. The tarrasque can be eventually beaten by a low-level party with flying and a scroll of wish. Does that mean it's not CR 20? Of course not. Because when you use the tarrasqe in a manner that befits its CR, it's going to be underground, or rampaging through a city, and that low-level party will be unable to survive or prevent massive casualties. Thus CR DOES NOT work as intended. The point wasn't that it works if the DM 'Optimizes' his monsters.. if it worked as it's supposed to, he wouldn't HAVE to optimize his monsters specifically against the Party. The point wasn't that certain things AREN'T the stated CR, it was the the CR system DOESN'T WORK. If a CR 20 Tarrasque CAN be beat by a low level party (By your own admission), then obviously something wasn't taken into account. And the point isn't that SOME encounters have this problem, it's that MOST have it. Again, only if this mage is lucky enough to get through all of the contingent spell reflections. Luck has nothing to do with it. It just requires the mage casting enough spells to drop the reflections. That's assuming you HAVE your contingent spell up. Woops, forgot about that. I suppose that I would instead spend much more additional wealth developing a permanent version instead. That would also fix the time problem, as the dragon would tack on additional layers every time it has a free 100 days. You can't AFFORD it. Contingent Spell Reflection Abjuration Spellcraft DC: 32 Components: V, S Casting Time: 100 days, 11 minutes Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Contingent until expended, then 12 hours To Develop: 288,000 gp; 6 days; 11,520 XP. Seed: reflect (DC 27). Factors: reflect up to epic spells (+180 DC), include area spells (+20 DC), activated when subject is target of offensive spell (+25 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (–20 DC), increase casting time by 100 days (–200 DC). The character can create a ward against all spells that target the subject, including area spells where the subject is caught in the vicinity. These spells are reflected back on the caster. The desired effect is automatically reflected if the spell in question is 9th level or lower. An opposed caster level check is required when the contingent spell reflection is used against another epic spell. If the enemy spellcaster gets his or her spell through by winning the caster level check, contingent spell reflection is not expended, just momentarily suppressed. This spell is triggered if the subject activates a moment of prescience effect. OK, so this is YOUR spell. Now, making an Epic spell permanent requires you to do the X5 to the DC BEFORE mitigating factors(Which are ALWAYS applied LAST). Seed: reflect (DC 27). Factors: reflect up to epic spells (+180 DC), include area spells (+20 DC) 27+180+20=227. X5 = 1135. NOW, we add EVERY mitigating factor in the book that can apply. Backlash X 2 HD = 116. Burn 10,000 XP = 100 Increase casting time by 10 minutes = 20 Increase casting time by 100 days = 200 25,000 GP Material Component = 10 1135-116-100-20-200-10= TOTAL DC 689 Cost to create : 6,201,000 GP. And none of this is counting the XP cost of 248,040. OR 9 Rods of Excellent Magic for 5,850,000 GP, which reduces the XP cost by 234,000. In the end, you can either pay 6,201,000 GP and 248,040 XP (PLUS an additional 10,000 XP and 25,000 GP each time you CAST the spell) OR 12,051,000 GP and 14,040 XP (PLUS an additional 10,000 XP and 25,000 GP each time you CAST the spell). Or somewhere in between. ALSO, good luck getting the Spellcraft check of over +600. Hmm.. lets try being a bit nicer to you... Optional Modifiers: Additional Casters = -58 (If you add Leadership to your character). This drops your DC to 631 and your base cost to... 5,679,000 GP/227,160 XP. You still can't cast OR afford it. (ALso note I dropped the "+25 contingent" factor b/c you have it permanent. Adding that in again would raise your final DC by another 125, and the final cost by 1,125,000, 45,000 XP.) NOTE also that I'm not saying this is the only route you can go, but if you can show me a way to make this spell permanent AND affordable AND castable AND usable in more than one fight.... Then yes you COULD make it permanent. |
| Caros08-31-07, 06:25 PM | Err, pretty much what he said entirely. Illusions pretty much don't work, and you don't have the epic spells to cast one that would beat true seeing. Body doubles? Unless you're thinking like... Simulacrum which is a joke, good luck getting any non-core. I suppose you could be thinking Astral Projection cheeze, but we are 4 high level casters, so we project as well and the first battle is just a proxy =/ If it doesn't activate the contingency, no init bonus, we get to go 4 times before it moves, which guarantees us a victory. The biggest problem with this challenge, IMO; is the fact that both parties use "Casting time x days". That easily gets ridiculus, as you can basicly lower any epic spell DC to 20-40. You should've put up a day limit or something Err, not sure where you're getting this. All my spells are quickened, meant to be cast on the spot. As far as his X/days spells, I really don't mind. The spells are largely inconsiquential since they are so easily dispeled. Though I do feel bad for the dragon. From the looks of things, the moment it hits old age it burns its horde to make defensive spells, and spends years upon years with a ring of sustinence doing nothing but casting. Just a lil crazy ^_^; Really? I don't ever think Caros posted a build or complete epic spell. Would you like me to? I've already done the vast majority of the math and posted it in this thread, I really just need to compose it into a sheet. I'm on my week off so if need be to get you to acceed the point I happily will. *Shrugs* I'm not sure if I can make my point any more clear, Uberman did a decent job of reaffirming it but I'll try one last time. CR is the baseline of a creatures power. It is used for determining encounter level, where all the modifications for environment and tactics are used. At EL+5, A creature is supposed to be near 100% lethal, to quote the book "The PC's should Run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose." I pretty much contend that the higher level you get, The less accurate CR can be. Once you reach 30+ CR cannot accurately predict how a party would react because at that level you have differences of stats, be it attack, saves, AC or whatever else, that can be so large that the dice no longer matter. What is an epic battle for one level 30 party, is dinner for another, and vice versa. I didn't start up this thread to show up Bluemage, though I will admit that it cheers me somewhat to see his arguement slowly be whittled down to prove my point. |
| Gemstone08-31-07, 06:32 PM | Err, not sure where you're getting this. All my spells are quickened, meant to be cast on the spot. My bad, I thought one of his posts were yours CR is the baseline of a creatures power. It is used for determining encounter level, where all the modifications for environment and tactics are used. At EL+5, A creature is supposed to be near 100% lethal, to quote the book "The PC's should Run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose." I pretty much contend that the higher level you get, The less accurate CR can be. Once you reach 30+ CR cannot accurately predict how a party would react because at that level you have differences of stats, be it attack, saves, AC or whatever else, that can be so large that the dice no longer matter. What is an epic battle for one level 30 party, is dinner for another, and vice versa the problem with your thinking here, is that you both optimize. CR isn't built for completly optimized characters (and especially not a four caster party at epic level). CR is constructed for 4 different classes with different abilities, using average builds, not the heavily optimized builds you use. The CR system is screwed up the same second you enter a single new spell, or enter a single new feat, as a whole new barrel of monkeys is opened. To make a CR approximation work, you need to use less optimized tactics for your characters. Monsters aren't very optimized as they lack much of the flexibility that PC's have in terms of raw power (casting for example). But that's just my oppionion ^^ |
| Darimaus08-31-07, 06:42 PM | You know.... if one were so inclined.... you could always use time stop (as well as spell stowaway for your other party members) to polymorph the ground underneath the antimagic field into a giant catapult, aim it at the sun, and get some guy with Distant shot to ready an action where when timestop ends, fire the dragon into the sun. Problem solved :P |
| Darimaus08-31-07, 06:44 PM | My bad, I thought one of his posts were yours the problem with your thinking here, is that you both optimize. CR isn't built for completly optimized characters (and especially not a four caster party at epic level). CR is constructed for 4 different classes with different abilities, using average builds, not the heavily optimized builds you use. The CR system is screwed up the same second you enter a single new spell, or enter a single new feat, as a whole new barrel of monkeys is opened. To make a CR approximation work, you need to use less optimized tactics for your characters. Monsters aren't very optimized as they lack much of the flexibility that PC's have in terms of raw power (casting for example). But that's just my oppionion ^^ The only flaw I see in your theory is that these kinds of problems can occur with non-optimized characters, as in a badguy with no ranged attack vs party that can fly. They didn't optimize their characters, they just had an ability that negates the entire difficulty of the encounter. Doesn't matter if the guy on the ground is CR 6 or 60, it still can't fight back. |
| Caros08-31-07, 06:46 PM | Oh, I'll acknowledge the game isn't meant for this kind of optimization. For the record, I would never touch a party like this with a regulation 10-foot pole. That said, The CR system has problems with even non-optimized builds. Taken from the initial thread. Single mage VS. Iron Collossus. Party of winged characters (Or character) With a scroll of wish Vs. Tarrasque. Hell, invisible stalker vs. Party that doesn't have see invis prepared! CR as a system cannot account for tactics and abilities. Its a best guess margin as to how creatures will be able to fight against the iconic D&D party. But not all parties are Iconic, hell my group is only 4 people, so we can't manage the iconic even if we want to! You're right in saying that the more you add, the more CR breaks down. Today CR is much worse off then it was when 3.5 came out because you've got several dozen sources to work with, no CR can account for the possibilities of hundreds of feats, thousands of spells. Look at Book of Nine Swords, which allows a fighter to fulfil duties he wasn't originally meant to do. That along breaks the CR's of some monsters. At Epic the problem is even worse because instead of 5 levels worth of varied feats and classes, you have 30. I don't bluff when I say that I have never seen two level 30 charachters that were even remotely close, and because of that it is impossible to predict. I always viewed it as exponential breakdown of CR. At level 1, you've got a very small number of possibilities, at two, you've got twice that number, because you've all the options you had originally, plus new ones... so on and so forth =/ |
| Gemstone09-01-07, 09:57 AM | You know.... if one were so inclined.... you could always use time stop (as well as spell stowaway for your other party members) to polymorph the ground underneath the antimagic field into a giant catapult, aim it at the sun, and get some guy with Distant shot to ready an action where when timestop ends, fire the dragon into the sun. Problem solved :P Best idea, ever! I can see the dragon going "What the heeeeeeeell?!?" The only flaw I see in your theory is that these kinds of problems can occur with non-optimized characters, as in a badguy with no ranged attack vs party that can fly. They didn't optimize their characters, they just had an ability that negates the entire difficulty of the encounter. Doesn't matter if the guy on the ground is CR 6 or 60, it still can't fight back. Reply With Quote Yeah, I was going to discuss that too, but it kinda fell off... It was late and I was tired :) I've been toying with the idea to let a creature that is dealt with by a single spell that negates everything it has, give [Level x 25] exp to each party member, as it's hardly a threat. This problem comes from the fact that the creators foresaw only the wizard buffing himself with spells such as fly, invisibility and such against most foes. The same goes for the cleric ("Hey, the cleric will mostly buff other pc's right?"). Thus, whenever I advance a monster I always add a ranged attack if the monster is all melee, or I put it in a position were it can be a real threat (unless it's a random encounter). But this only proves that you really need to watch your party as they are the power the encounters are based upon. Oh, I'll acknowledge the game isn't meant for this kind of optimization. For the record, I would never touch a party like this with a regulation 10-foot pole. That said, The CR system has problems with even non-optimized builds. Taken from the initial thread. Single mage VS. Iron Collossus. Party of winged characters (Or character) With a scroll of wish Vs. Tarrasque. Hell, invisible stalker vs. Party that doesn't have see invis prepared! CR as a system cannot account for tactics and abilities. Its a best guess margin as to how creatures will be able to fight against the iconic D&D party. But not all parties are Iconic, hell my group is only 4 people, so we can't manage the iconic even if we want to! You're right in saying that the more you add, the more CR breaks down. Today CR is much worse off then it was when 3.5 came out because you've got several dozen sources to work with, no CR can account for the possibilities of hundreds of feats, thousands of spells. Look at Book of Nine Swords, which allows a fighter to fulfil duties he wasn't originally meant to do. That along breaks the CR's of some monsters. At Epic the problem is even worse because instead of 5 levels worth of varied feats and classes, you have 30. I don't bluff when I say that I have never seen two level 30 charachters that were even remotely close, and because of that it is impossible to predict. I always viewed it as exponential breakdown of CR. At level 1, you've got a very small number of possibilities, at two, you've got twice that number, because you've all the options you had originally, plus new ones... so on and so forth =/ See answer above :) But I must admit, I'm very much impressed by both sides efforts to win this :) Altough, why Bluemage didn't take his own caster level into consideration is odd... I would probably slap on: Practiced spellcaster, and add a couple of +1 (for +2 DC each) to caster level blueh checks if possible. But I can't recall if that's only for the purpose of dispelling or not. All in all, have a cookie! |
| QuickenedWish09-07-07, 12:50 AM | Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I have followed this thread from the beginning, and was really hoping to see the results of an actual fight (if not the entire fight turn-by-turn in its entirety). Both the the challengers keep posting the flaws in each others builds, and I think that is a result of them not quite being complete as posted, but I think it would be far more constructive to post a complete build and let the DM who volunteered (it was Witch I believe, who has a keen sense of balance) to adjudicate as necessary. Or we could just keep posting off-topic fluff, "what ifs", and "yeah....wells." QW |