Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sagetim 09-26-07, 09:50 PM	Since I saw the debate starting in another thread, I figured I would make a thread FOR the debate to happen in. The creatures being compared are: Pun Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) vs The Mortiverse (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php%3Fp%3D2873260%26postcount%3 D1) have at it, ye ramblers of stuff.
SokenzanMarauder 09-26-07, 11:39 PM	As a DM I'd rule in favor of the Mortiverse. Unlike Pun Pun it doesn't require loop-holes to gain infinite powers. I just has them anyways. My Vote = Mortiverse
Japan_the_cougar 09-26-07, 11:45 PM	I vote for Pun-Pun, because I can at least understand how he gained his infinite power. The Mortiverse is just a mess of zeros, with a few random numbers interspersed, posing as a creature.
Paradox_of_Life 09-26-07, 11:51 PM	Pun-Pun would win because in a contest of nigh-infinity versus a constant, the nigh-infinity wins.
SokenzanMarauder 09-27-07, 01:19 AM	Pun-Pun would win because in a contest of nigh-infinity versus a constant, the nigh-infinity wins. But his stats ARE infinite. The abilities from being a Time Lord make them so. The constant is what they would be if something were to counter the fact that they're infinite (typically an opposite infinite ability).
Deamon 09-27-07, 02:35 AM	Pun-Pun would win because in a contest of nigh-infinity versus a constant, the nigh-infinity wins. The mortiverses infinites aren't nigh-infinite they are actual infinites.
Robespierre 09-27-07, 03:01 AM	Could someone explain the diference between nigh-infinity and 'true' infinity... To me it just seems exactly the same...
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-27-07, 03:08 AM	Actually, the Mortiverse has key holes in its build that would allow Pun Pun to easily defeat it. In particular, Mortiverse has no counter to Pun Puns ability to plane shift; while Mortiverse's reach is, for a lack of a better answer, 135 Trillion Light Years distant and its kill radii is about 6 Trillion miles across, it still can not break light speed, despite the speed presented. Mortiverse is being treated as a Massive DR deity; but for whatever reason, he doesn't seem to have most of the bells and whistles that a Deity gets. Lastly, the complete absence of spell-like abilities makes it clear that this is not a 'mage type villain'. Nor is there any real way for Mortiverse to drop onto someone--for, with its speed reduced to the speed of Light, its incredible size and larger kill zone would be detectable for years before its arrival. Pun Pun gets to buff--and he'll take his stats to true infinite. Pun Pun simply creates a subroutine that allows him to increase his powers infinitely and on a geometric basis, requiring zero time. Infinite Stats. And the ability to beat Morti's DR and SR, because, he can simply add them to himself. Any and all coolness that Mortiverse possesses, can simply be added to Pun Pun by manipulate Form. Now, all Pun Pun needs to do is to beat the Mortiverse on a Divine Rank check to submit it to his Mass Death SDA--which is not allowing a Saving Throw. Mortiverse may have rejuvenate, but it's physical form is out of action at this time. Indeed, Pun Pun simply succeeds on another Rank Check, and Mortiverse is forever dead--But Pun Pun is well outside of the range of his death throes effect. Pun Pun wins.
Deamon 09-27-07, 03:24 AM	it still can not break light speed, despite the speed presented.Why not? Mortiverse is being treated as a Massive DR deity; but for whatever reason, he doesn't seem to have most of the bells and whistles that a Deity gets. Actually it is a deity, with divine rank in the tens of thousands. Lastly, the complete absence of spell-like abilities makes it clear that this is not a 'mage type villain'. Nor is there any real way for Mortiverse to drop onto someone--for, with its speed reduced to the speed of Light, its incredible size and larger kill zone would be detectable for years before its arrival. Pun Pun gets to buff--and he'll take his stats to true infinite. Pun Pun simply creates a subroutine that allows him to increase his powers infinitely and on a geometric basis, requiring zero time. Infinite Stats. And the ability to beat Morti's DR and SR, because, he can simply add them to himself. Any and all coolness that Mortiverse possesses, can simply be added to Pun Pun by manipulate Form. However Pun-Pun can't get and loses all denifits of maniupulate form due to the mortiverses aboragate ability. Now, all Pun Pun needs to do is to beat the Mortiverse on a Divine Rank check to submit it to his Mass Death SDA--which is not allowing a Saving Throw. Mass death doesn't work on deities.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 07:13 AM	I don't know Mortiverse's backstory, but Pun-Pun can travel back to round 1 of the universe, and take infinite actions per round, therefore he can draw any creature that does not have whatever the "Cheezy Initiative" ability is called AND existed at the beginning of time. If that creature alsodoesn't have what the "Cheezy Defense" ability is called, Pun-Pun wins. I'd like to point out the Pun-Pun's stats are more infinite then Mortiverse's, because they are truly infinite, not just treated as infinite but really large. Pun-Pun is infinite to the core.
larry_the_titan 09-27-07, 07:24 AM	You realize that once Pun Pun knows of or meets Mortiverse, Pun Pun duplicates Mortiverse stats as a free action and then they are equal. Then Pun Pun during the same round raises his stats even more. Which means Pun Pun whens by gaining stats greater then infinite.
Deamon 09-27-07, 09:48 AM	I'd like to point out the Pun-Pun's stats are more infinite then Mortiverse's, because they are truly infinite, not just treated as infinite but really large. Pun-Pun is infinite to the core. The mortiverses stats are truly Infinate not arbitarly large. How does Pun-Pun get infinate stats anyway. Also looking at the mortiverses abilities again, all of Pun-Pun's feats and divine abilities don't work in the same multiverse as the mortiverse. Additonally the mortiverse has every class feature of any class that is written. Can cast any epic spell up to DC 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,017,68 3 and has 95% chance of ignoring any damage that Pun-Pun can do to him.
Far_Traveler 09-27-07, 10:04 AM	I vote for Pun-Pun because Pun-Pun has this ability: I win You win. At everything. Against anyone. Prerequisites: Pun-Pun Benefit: You can, as an immediate action, win. There is no save or spell resistance for this. This is an Extrodinary ability.
RealSorceror 09-27-07, 10:19 AM	What none of you realize is that the Mortiverse is actually a "she". They fall in lub, and do....uh....whatever it is that infinite uber-beings do. :D
Deamon 09-27-07, 11:17 AM	I vote for Pun-Pun because Pun-Pun has this ability: I win You win. At everything. Against anyone. Prerequisites: Pun-Pun Benefit: You can, as an immediate action, win. There is no save or spell resistance for this. This is an Extrodinary ability. Even if Pun-Pun did have that ability when fighting the mortiverse Pun-Pun can't use it.
Prime361 09-27-07, 11:21 AM	What none of you realize is that the Mortiverse is actually a "she". They fall in lub, and do....uh....whatever it is that infinite uber-beings do. :D You sir win at the internets
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 11:46 AM	Would anyone happen to know the Mortiverse's flavor? What is it? Like the necrotic remains of every Time Lord and High Lord that's ever been killed, all assimulated and amalgamated into a monster that only the Supreme Being could hope to stop? And as for Pun-Pun, I'm pretty sure that as soon as his desginers got ahold of the Immortals Handbook then he would increase his already-infinite power by exponential infinity. And also, Immortals Handbook doesn't use the same Divine Rank system as WoTC, so Pun-Pun may or may not actually have infinite Divine Ranks with that system, since it works more off of a series of templates based on a god's Quintessence, so I don;t think that the Ice Assassin trick wuld work. But what do I know? I haven't even looked at Pun-Pun in about 2 years.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 01:46 PM	Would anyone happen to know the Mortiverse's flavor? What is it? Like the necrotic remains of every Time Lord and High Lord that's ever been killed, all assimulated and amalgamated into a monster that only the Supreme Being could hope to stop? And as for Pun-Pun, I'm pretty sure that as soon as his desginers got ahold of the Immortals Handbook then he would increase his already-infinite power by exponential infinity. And also, Immortals Handbook doesn't use the same Divine Rank system as WoTC, so Pun-Pun may or may not actually have infinite Divine Ranks with that system, since it works more off of a series of templates based on a god's Quintessence, so I don;t think that the Ice Assassin trick wuld work. But what do I know? I haven't even looked at Pun-Pun in about 2 years. Is it possible to give up a piece of divine essence to create proxies? If so, Ice Assassin would work. I don't think Pun-Pun has access to IH stuff, because it's not supernatural, spell-like, or extraordinary.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 01:52 PM	The mortiverses stats are truly Infinate not arbitarly large. His base stats are large. He has an ability that makes his stats infinite. How does Pun-Pun get infinate stats anyway. It involves some mathematical proofs. The Ghola character would be the right thread. Also looking at the mortiverses abilities again, all of Pun-Pun's feats and divine abilities don't work in the same multiverse as the mortiverse. But, before Mortiverse gets in, Pun-Pun can block off the entire area with a widened xinfinity planar bubble on a Kaorti, giving everyone in the universe an infinite number of actions in 0 seconds. Additonally the mortiverse has every class feature of any class that is written. Can cast any epic spell up to DC 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,017,68 3 and has 95% chance of ignoring any damage that Pun-Pun can do to him. Oh gee. Pun-Pun has infinite stats, so he can cast any epic spell, he does have every class feature, and he has infinite HP so the damage doesn't even mean anything.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 02:16 PM	Is there some reason that you defend Pun-Pun so vigorously? I mean, we are well beyond the scope of any DnD universe here, so isn't it at least possible that something could beat Pun-Pun? I mean, were talking about something that doesn't really even acknowledge the laws of time and existence. I don't have anything against Pun-Pun, but I don't think that he was really created with this kind of adversary in mind. I mean, this is getting very close to arguing whether Pun-Pun could kill the Supreme Being (i.e. the DM). Which is a completely ridiculous arguement, as opposoed to this only mostly-ridiculous arguement. Also, as an aside, which character do you think took more work to stat up? Maybe that's how we can compare them. Edit: And I'd really like to see some flavor text on the Mortiverse. Does anyone know what this thing actually is? Until the other day, I thought that A'kuin the Star Turtle was the most powerful thing ever statted.
Deamon 09-27-07, 02:55 PM	His base stats are large. He has an ability that makes his stats infinite.Which means they're truly infinate. But, before Mortiverse gets in, Pun-Pun can block off the entire area with a widened xinfinity planar bubble on a Kaorti, giving everyone in the universe an infinite number of actions in 0 seconds.Pun-Pun can't cast any spells or use any divine abilites whilst in the same multiverse as the mortiverse.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 03:33 PM	Which means they're truly infinate.Pun-Pun can't cast any spells or use any divine abilites whilst in the same multiverse as the mortiverse. There's a difference between 5+2 and 7, and I would argue 7 is larger. Luckily Pun-Pun resides in the Far Realms, which is outside the multiverse. With his observation ability he notices the moment of Mortiverse's coming and goes back in time to save the world.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 03:38 PM	Is there some reason that you defend Pun-Pun so vigorously? I mean, we are well beyond the scope of any DnD universe here, so isn't it at least possible that something could beat Pun-Pun? I mean, were talking about something that doesn't really even acknowledge the laws of time and existence. I don't have anything against Pun-Pun, but I don't think that he was really created with this kind of adversary in mind. I mean, this is getting very close to arguing whether Pun-Pun could kill the Supreme Being (i.e. the DM). Which is a completely ridiculous arguement, as opposoed to this only mostly-ridiculous arguement. Also, as an aside, which character do you think took more work to stat up? Maybe that's how we can compare them. Edit: And I'd really like to see some flavor text on the Mortiverse. Does anyone know what this thing actually is? Until the other day, I thought that A'kuin the Star Turtle was the most powerful thing ever statted. I vigorously defend the truth. Until I see the Mortiverse ability that actually defeats Pun-Pun, I will continue striking down false statements. Well the DM can kill Mortiverse, so obviously DM>Mortiverse. I argue DM>Pun-Pun>Mortiverse.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 03:55 PM	So now its down to 50/50? What, does the game seriously break down to an opposed d20 roll at this level. That's kind of profound. Also, flavorwise, how powerful would you say that the Mortiverse is? Say I'm designing a universe for a campaign setting and the Mortiverse invades. Does it have as much control over the setting as I do? It obviousll can't harm me (the Supreme Being of that setting) personally, but is its power less than or equal to my own in terms of control over the reality of the setting? Would it be like a sentient computer virus that starts re-writing my notes for the setting, or what? I mean, what is this thing? Does anyone know?
CrimsonDeath 09-27-07, 04:34 PM	Whatever the Mortiverse's Divine Rank is, Pun-Pun can increase his own Divine Rank until it's higher. Whatever the Mortiverse's base ability scores are, Pun-Pun can increase his own ability scores until they are higher. Whatever ability the Mortiverse has that makes its ability scores infinite, Pun-Pun can copy it, either using Manipulate Form or by selecting it as a Salient Divine Ability. Whatever ability the Mortiverse has that negates other creatures' extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like, or Salient Divine abilities, Pun-Pun can duplicate it with Manipulate Form or select it as a Salient Divine Ability, and have a wider radius. If the Mortiverse is immune to any of its own abilities (and thus, immune to Pun-Pun's copied versions of them), Pun-Pun can duplicate whatever ability grants that immunity, through manipulate Form or selecting it as a Salient Divine Ability, and ignore the Mortiverse's abilities as well. The reason Pun-Pun wins is because the Mortiverse is static, but Pun-Pun can continually improve himself. And he knows precisely how to do it, because his skill checks (including Knowledge checks) are already truly infinite, thanks to the Omnificer (a self-perpetuating damage loop combined with Delay Death, Masochism, and any one of a number of ways to continue to act while reduced below 0 HP and to survive while reduced below -9 HP). And Pun-Pun can begin his ascension at level 1. The only way to prevent it would be for the Mortiverse to be older than life itself, and for it to prevent the creation of life in the first place. In that case, the question of who would win is moot, because the universe of discourse includes only one autonomous entity, so no meaningful conflict can occur. Unless, of course, the Mortiverse has the dynamic ability to acquire any capability or to enhance any of its existing capabilities at will, even on another person's turn, just before an event occurs that would otherwise remove the capacity to do so. As far as I can tell, its statistics are fixed, permanently, at their initial values. That, unfortunately, is the best I can do without more detailed knowledge regarding the litany of abilities the Mortiverse has, whose acquisition and game effects are not explained.
Deamon 09-27-07, 04:44 PM	Luckily Pun-Pun resides in the Far Realms, which is outside the multiverse. With his observation ability he notices the moment of Mortiverse's coming and goes back in time to save the world.No for the purposes of the mortiverses divine aura the far realms is considered part of the multiverse.
Deamon 09-27-07, 04:52 PM	Whatever the Mortiverse's Divine Rank is, Pun-Pun can increase his own Divine Rank until it's higher. Actually the mortiverse has the highest DvR possible. You can't get higher. Whatever the Mortiverse's base ability scores are, Pun-Pun can increase his own ability scores until they are higher.OK Whatever ability the Mortiverse has that makes its ability scores infinite, Pun-Pun can copy it, either using Manipulate Form or by selecting it as a Salient Divine Ability.Exept he can't use either when fighting the mortiverse. All bonuses from he has ever gained from manipulate form are ingnored. Whatever ability the Mortiverse has that negates other creatures' extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like, or Salient Divine abilities, Pun-Pun can duplicate it with Manipulate Form or select it as a Salient Divine Ability, and have a wider radius. Actually he can't gain them as a divine ability and aboragate stops himfrom using manupulate form. If the Mortiverse is immune to any of its own abilities (and thus, immune to Pun-Pun's copied versions of them), Pun-Pun can duplicate whatever ability grants that immunity, through manipulate Form or selecting it as a Salient Divine Ability, and ignore the Mortiverse's abilities as well. See above on using manipulate form and gaining SDAs.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 04:55 PM	Pun Pun can NOT duplicate any of those abilities because this is a 3rd party supplement that expands upon the normal games rules. Those abilities are neither Su, Ex, or Sla. They are either Cosmic, Transcendental, or Omnific, which are each their own category, therefore Pun-Pun cannot duplicate them through manipulate form. Also, for anyone who cares, I think I've pieced together its flavor. The Mortiverse is basically a sentient black hole that's bigger than any universe and floats through dimenions, happening upon other universes and devouring them while gaining another High Lord template, thus increasing his power even more. It instantly destroys entire universes when it comes itno contact with them. Someone on EnWorld where this originated developed an epic spell to contain it and prevent it from annilating everything. Also, since it usualy has nothing to feed off of, it evaporates its nothingness in big bang-like paroxysms that spawn entire universes, simultaeneously fullfilling roles as alpha and omega. I would say that this thing is older than life, or so far beyond it that it doesn't really matter. Because, come on, seriously, Pun-Pun has to at least try to destroy a universe; the Mortiverse can't help itself. And also, Upper Krust, the designer of the Immortals Handbook, uses a much different cosmology than Wizards of the Coast, so that little Far Realm arguement is really meaningless on this scale.
Frobojoe 09-27-07, 05:32 PM	As I recall (stop me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I looked at Mortiverse), Mortiverse is an octodecagoad, or High Lord x18. This means it's (as an unelemental, I don't think Mortiverse has a gender) actually 18 entire universes contained in a single entity (for those of you without Ascension, a Time Lord is a single sentient universe and a High Lord is the same thing, but with multiple universes). Since Pun-Pun exists only in one universe, it matters what universe he exists in. If he's from one of the universes contained in Mortiverse, then that ability that Mortiverse has that I forget the name of (it's the one where he can't be harmed by anything in his universe) comes into play and Pun-Pun cannot win. If Pun-Pun's from a different universe, then they actually fight. Pun-Pun's infinite action loop never comes into play, because he doesn't have Slipstream and can never act against Mortiverse (the monty trick doesn't really help against this and besides, Mortiverse can do the same thing). Even if they both have infinite stats and every ability ever, Mortiverse wins by virtue of being able to strip Pun-Pun of his most powerful abilities, a feat Pun-Pun is unable to replicate (I'm pretty sure Mortiverse can keep spawning more copies of himself in and negate all of Pun-Pun's abilities, too). Mortiverse can strip Pun-Pun of all his Divine ranks with Akashic [Effect], as those aren't infinite (I think he can do the same thing with his HD, too). Seriously, Pun-Pun's outclassed here. He's unbeatable using just WotC material, but Mortiverse has abilities Pun-Pun lacks, and which make him pretty much unstoppable by anyone but another High Lord.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-27-07, 05:37 PM	If the CO board actually got their hands on the Immortal's Handbook, I'm sure it could be broken quite fast. Then Pun Pun could win. I don't know that though, never having seen the Immortals Handbook and having no intention of buying it.(Seriously, why? Why not an entirely new system?) As it stands now though, the Mortiverse is just a part of a "lol i can type really big numbers and that makes my pen1s big" thing. Or so it seems to me.
Frobojoe 09-27-07, 05:43 PM	As it stands now though, the Mortiverse is just a part of a "lol i can type really big numbers and that makes my pen1s big" thing. Or so it seems to me. Come now. Somebody put a lot of work into those big numbers. I personally find Mortiverse entertaining as hell. Obviously it's not an actual character, but rather more of a plot device (unless you've got a party of High Lords or something).
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-27-07, 05:49 PM	I'll admit I am not very familiar with the Mortiverse, but the very idea just irks me.
Frobojoe 09-27-07, 05:50 PM	I'll admit I am not very familiar with the Mortiverse, but the very idea just irks me. But you're ok with Pun-Pun?
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 05:55 PM	Well, that's a rather juvenile perspective on this debate, but I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And yes, I've been saying from the beginning that if anyone from Theoritcal Optimization got their hands on the Ih than Pun-Pun would probably win. Those numbers really do mean something, its just that when you stack the TIme Lord template that many times it seriusly gets out of hand. And also, if you play epic you shouldn't write off the Epic Bestiary right away. I only uses some very basic IH rules and integrates almost seamlessly with normal high level play, and offers many excellently designed monsters for that level (i.e. 30-100 being the average spread, with things as low as 10 and as high as 9721) And I seriously can't understand why everyone is getting so volatile about this; its not an attack on Pun-Pun, we're just taking two unrealistically powerful characters and comparing them and trying to determine who would win in a conflict. The answer would be alot simpler if Pun-Pun used the Ih rules though. Even though the Mortiverse is technically more plausible in a campaign, since it isn't a purely theoretical exercise.
Deamon 09-27-07, 05:57 PM	If the CO board actually got their hands on the Immortal's Handbook, I'm sure it could be broken quite fast. Then Pun Pun could win. I don't know that though, never having seen the Immortals Handbook and having no intention of buying it.(Seriously, why? Why not an entirely new system?)The Immortal's Handbook is a whole new system. As it stands now though, the Mortiverse is just a part of a "lol i can type really big numbers and that makes my pen1s big" thing. Or so it seems to me.The Mortiverse has had a lot more effort put into it than Pun-Pun has.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-27-07, 06:09 PM	The Immortal's Handbook is a whole new system. As in, not D&D anymore? If so, it makes a lot more sense. The Mortiverse has had a lot more effort put into it than Pun-Pun has.[/QUOTE] I doubt that. The sheer number of hours put into making and trying to kill Pun-Pun is pretty huge. I could be wrong though.
EjoThims 09-27-07, 06:17 PM	The Immortal's Handbook is a whole new system. This debate is truly moot. Pun-Pun is the end-all be-all of 3.5 DnD. There is nothing official that can stand against him. Does it matter if unofficial things can? Of course not. It's just as easy to create an ability that says "This lets you kill Pun-Pun with no save, as an immediate action, and cannot be duplicated by manipulate form." At the same time it's just as easy (if not more so by the wording of manipulate form) for Pun-Pun to grant himself an ability that states "This ability allows the creature to use Manipulate Form to grant Cosmic, Transcendental, or Omnific abilities. This is an Extraordinary Ability." There, now Pun-Pun has all the abilities in the Immortals Handbook and all the immunities to those abilities. All from the beginning of any timeline and at 1st level. See how absurd this is?
Hyfigh 09-27-07, 06:21 PM	Maybe it's just me but... Why would we at the TO boards have to worry about this guy? Morti is from a 3rd party resource. Everything Pun-pun does is through Wizards produced materials. Adding in 3rd party materials with brand new, 3rd party, unique to this resource rules completely cancels the viability of pitting them against each other. It's like adding in houserules. Anyone can rule that there is a being more powerful than Pun-pun - 3rd party materials or not. Doing a rules bounce like this would be akin to allowing an Indy car to compete against NASCAR's wherein the NASCAR's have to follow their own rules but the Indy car doesn't. This is all outside the fact that the abilities Pun-pun can obtain don't have to be abilities that already exist. Manipulate Form quite literally allows one to make up abilities from scratch. The TO'ers stay away from that because it's more fun to stay within the lines of the rules that are already presented. This means that all of those abilities people say P2 doesn't have access to because they're not Ex, Su, or Sp are actually able to be, and likely have been, turned into Ex, Su, or Sp abilities that function exactly as the original.
Yadot 09-27-07, 06:31 PM	The Mortiverse has had a lot more effort put into it than Pun-Pun has. The Mortiverse is just a bunch of numbers added together, whereas Pun-Pun required knowledge of the rules and over a half-dozen posters collaborating to produce him from any character at 1st level.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 06:36 PM	The Mortiverse has had a lot more effort put into it than Pun-Pun has. You're wrong. Sorry, you're wrong. Pun-Pun is a work of skill, while Mortiverse is a work of DM fiat. He's not that good of a plot device, either. If your plot says "sorry, all your abilities don't work" it's not a game I'd want to play in. A cool plot would be: This world is a time bubble created by Pun-Pun to protect himself from Mortivorse indefinately - and it is starting to develop dangerous traits of the far realms! More later, have to go to fencing.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-27-07, 06:37 PM	:D Challenge Rating: 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608 A being with a level of 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608 + 4 SHOULD ... have an easy time of it. A being with a level of 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608 + 10 SHOULD ... receive perhaps Zero exp for defeating it. And what is Pun-pun's level ? Third Death (Su): If destroyed (permanently), the Mortiverse implodes in on itself. All targets within the Mortiverse’s reach must make a Reflex save (DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108) or be sucked into the void and lost forever. Occasionally, beings lost in this manner find a way to return, but they are never the same as they were before unless they are somehow protected from the dimension of entropy. You know how in Marvel Comics, Thanos always manages to get himself beat ?! Well ... with this statement: "Third Death (Su): If destroyed (permanently)" Servitor of Wrath already has the expectation of being beaten. Within a WotC-ish universe, Pun-pun wins hands down. Perhaps he even lets it live for entertainment purposes. Kinda like how Blingy the Psicrystal does the exact same thing with Pun-pun. { ... hint: Google "Blingy the Psicrystal" ... }
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 06:43 PM	Pun Pun can NOT duplicate any of those abilities because this is a 3rd party supplement that expands upon the normal games rules. Those abilities are neither Su, Ex, or Sla. They are either Cosmic, Transcendental, or Omnific, which are each their own category, therefore Pun-Pun cannot duplicate them through manipulate form. Also, for anyone who cares, I think I've pieced together its flavor. The Mortiverse is basically a sentient black hole that's bigger than any universe and floats through dimenions, happening upon other universes and devouring them while gaining another High Lord template, thus increasing his power even more. It instantly destroys entire universes when it comes itno contact with them. Someone on EnWorld where this originated developed an epic spell to contain it and prevent it from annilating everything. Also, since it usualy has nothing to feed off of, it evaporates its nothingness in big bang-like paroxysms that spawn entire universes, simultaeneously fullfilling roles as alpha and omega. I would say that this thing is older than life, or so far beyond it that it doesn't really matter. Because, come on, seriously, Pun-Pun has to at least try to destroy a universe; the Mortiverse can't help itself. And also, Upper Krust, the designer of the Immortals Handbook, uses a much different cosmology than Wizards of the Coast, so that little Far Realm arguement is really meaningless on this scale. That wouldn't be fair to Pun-Pun, to take away the source of some of his power. Just like sarrukhs and aleaxs and other things which make Pun-Pun great don't exist in that work.
The_Mad_Linguist 09-27-07, 06:44 PM	All the mortiverse's abilities can be purchased with feats. Pun-pun has as many feats as he needs. QED.
CrimsonDeath 09-27-07, 06:50 PM	So, how did the Mortiverse get all its abilities? Did it start out as a level 1 Kobold too? Or did it simply spring fully-formed into existence?
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 07:19 PM	I'm not sure how the Mortiverse came into its power, since there is no implicit flavor text included with it. BUt from I gathered from the thread at EnWorld, its a universally-massive black hole that has omniscient sentience and grows by devouring other universes. Of course, in the IH cosmology, universes are actually sentient beings of nigh-unfathomable (to a normal game) power known as Time Lords. High Lords are Time Lords composed of multiple universes. I think it seems logical that the Mortiverse could be the undead remains of Time Lords who fall in omniversal warfare, collecting the ultra-divine carcass and assimilating it into its own power. And of course it could also attack Time Lords and High Lords directly since even they don't realy stand a chance against it from what I've seen. (Maybe Tetragramadon or whatever his name is once UK finally releases Gods and Monsters, but I don't know) Of course, that's all mostly speculation. Can we at least agree that the arrival of the Mortiverse would at least draw Pun-Pun's attention? I mean, unlike everything else in existence, wouldn't he actually be forced to get creative to fend it off?
CrimsonDeath 09-27-07, 09:09 PM	Someone on EnWorld where this originated developed an epic spell to contain it and prevent it from annilating everything. This alone may insure that Pun-Pun wins. Pun-Pun can develop any Epic spell he wants, for free, as a free action, by adding backlash damage until the Spellcraft DC is 0. Since he's already taking literally infinite damage every round anyway, a few billions of billions more dice aren't going to make a difference. He can also cast Epic spells as often as he wants, since he can increase his HD as much as he wants as often as he wants, gaining commensurate skill points when he does (with every 10 points of Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, Knowledge: Nature, or Knowledge: Psionics creating a new Epic spell slot/power point). Pun Pun can NOT duplicate any of those abilities because this is a 3rd party supplement that expands upon the normal games rules. Those abilities are neither Su, Ex, or Sla. They are either Cosmic, Transcendental, or Omnific, which are each their own category, therefore Pun-Pun cannot duplicate them through manipulate form. Hmm... I can't escape the feeling that this debate is being carried out in bad faith, since half of us are coming into it without information that is necessary in order to participate. Nevertheless, I'm not aware of anything that stops Pun-Pun from granting himself Extraordinary abilities that function exactly like the cosmic, transcendental, and omnific abilities in question. I'm sure you'll point something out, though. Actually the mortiverse has the highest DvR possible. You can't get higher. Didn't realize there was an upper limit. In that case, the two have the same DvR. Actually he can't gain them as a divine ability and aboragate stops himfrom using manupulate form. Who said Pun-Pun would wait until Morti showed up in order to gain them? Using his literally infinite Knowledge check modifiers, Pun-Pun can deduce the nature of any ability that might exist and grant it (along with countermeasures against it) to himself on the off chance that he might need it someday. Since Pun-Pun exists only in one universe, it matters what universe he exists in. If he's from one of the universes contained in Mortiverse, then that ability that Mortiverse has that I forget the name of (it's the one where he can't be harmed by anything in his universe) comes into play and Pun-Pun cannot win. That's not precisely accurate. If multiple multiverses exist, then presumably it's possible to travel from one to another; otherwise, referring to them in the plural would be meaningless. In that case, Pun-Pun can travel to a multiverse outside Morti. Once there, he can create a body from the matter of that universe with all of his relevant abilities and transfer his consciousness into it. (There are a wide variety of ways this could be accomplished; Clone is probably the simplest.) Now, he's "from" another multiverse and can theoretically attempt to harm Morti. Anyway, there are still two relevant questions, at least in my opinion: 1- Can Morti dynamically increase its own power, on demand? 2- Can Morti act so quickly that an immediate action cannot be performed in response? (Note that Pun-Pun is never flat-footed.)
speeblefreak 09-27-07, 09:36 PM	What the...people still remember the Mortiverse?! I made the darn thing and I haven't thought about it in months! :rofl: I'm not sure how the Mortiverse came into its power, since there is no implicit flavor text included with it. How it came to be is very simple: I had access to the templates in the Immortal's Handbook and a calculator, and I was very bored that day. Initially I was just playing around with creatures that made it into the Xona- size categories, and when I got Ascension I thought, "...might as well."
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-27-07, 09:44 PM	So basically, it's a pair of twisted thought experiments against each other? I'd rule in Pun-Pun's favor. He can actually have any ability via Manipulate Form; it's never said what he gets has to be published. So he can give himself all of those fancy Time Lord abilities (Is there a limit to the number of these Immortal abilities a Time Lord can have? I don't have the IH), and he can have as EX abilities, unfettered by anything pretty much anything. Also, Pun-Pun did have infinite ability scores before introducing the IH. Through an infinite damage loop, he momentarily gained infinite ability scores, and made them permanent through Manipulate Form. (It's somewhere on the CO Boards, look for the Omniscifier).
SokenzanMarauder 09-27-07, 09:52 PM	What the...people still remember the Mortiverse?! I made the darn thing and I haven't thought about it in months! :rofl: Speebs! When I originally saw the Mortiverse I figured you had something to do with it. :D -Gene
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-27-07, 10:11 PM	EDIT-Shoot, double post. That's one heck of a creature, Speeblefreak.
Frobojoe 09-28-07, 12:36 AM	1- Can Morti dynamically increase its own power, on demand? Probably? I'm not actually real familiar with it beyond knowing that it has pretty much all the abilities in Ascension and has more zero in it's statblock then I've ever seen i one place before. 2- Can Morti act so quickly that an immediate action cannot be performed in response? (Note that Pun-Pun is never flat-footed.) For the third time, pun-pun doesn't have slipstream, so he doesn't get any actions when fighting mortiverse. None. Zip. Zero. He doesn't get to act, period.
Bauglir 09-28-07, 01:31 AM	For the third time, pun-pun doesn't have slipstream, so he doesn't get any actions when fighting mortiverse. None. Zip. Zero. He doesn't get to act, period. Is it a beneficial ability? If so, Pun-Pun has it, having deduced its nature at the instant of his ascension with his infinite knowledge checks and having granted it to himself as every conceivable type of ability. This is why Pun-Pun wins, because any trick that defeats him is inevitably duplicated by Pun-Pun himself at the moment of his ascension, before it can be applied against him (because killing the kobold before his ascension isn't REALLY killing Pun-Pun, it's just killing a kobold). The closest thing that you can do is find a way to beat him earlier in levels (because that has a sort of mechanical rationale for being superior to pun-pun, not because it's better, but because it's faster), which the Mortiverse most certainly fails to do (I don't know what ECL it is, but it's damn high), and even that's impossible anyway thanks to Pazuzu.
CrimsonDeath 09-28-07, 04:11 AM	For the third time, pun-pun doesn't have slipstream, so he doesn't get any actions when fighting mortiverse. None. Zip. Zero. He doesn't get to act, period. 1- What does Slipstream do? 2- Why doesn't Pun-Pun have it?
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 06:57 AM	Probably? I'm not actually real familiar with it beyond knowing that it has pretty much all the abilities in Ascension and has more zero in it's statblock then I've ever seen i one place before. For the third time, pun-pun doesn't have slipstream, so he doesn't get any actions when fighting mortiverse. None. Zip. Zero. He doesn't get to act, period. Monty/Neo-Terminator=Slipstream! They're the exact thing. Just like you assume Pun-Pun's infinite abilities duplicate IH's infinite abilities, Pun-Pun's existing outside of time duplicates Slipstream! Oh, and Pun-Pun can see the future. So he'll bubble the world before Morty arrives, and given infinite time, don't you think he could come up with a solution? I mean, Morty actively gains Time-Lord templates. Is there a way for Pun-Pun to?
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 08:30 AM	Alright, I concede that Pun Pun wins, if only through being able to duplicate that spell. Or is it that when you cancel out the infinities, Pun Pun still has infinite stats while the Mortiverse has only 30+ digit stats? As for the whole multiverse arguement, I'm pretty sure that the entire DnD Great Whell setting fits into a single dimension in the IH Kosmos, so there really wouldn't be anywhere to hide, but that's irrelevent. I guess the only reason Pun-PUn wins is because of the open-endedness of Manipulate Form. Was that an oversight or was it intentional in the rules?
NinjaPenguin 09-28-07, 09:07 AM	When beings of infinite power fight, NOBODY wins, man! Can't we all just get along? *shakes head* I don't have the Ascension book, and I really wish I did. Is there any way to get it? I have Epic Beastiary, but I always feel like I'm standing just outside of some clubhouse when I listen to people talk about the rules of the Immortals Handbook that haven't been published yet. Be that as it may, my vote goes to Pun Pun. Manipulate Form is only -one- of the tricks he can pull off, although it is probably his most awesome. In order for this matchup to make any sense, though you have to make a large assumption: * The addition of the IH rules to 3.5 D&D does not prevent the existence of Pun Pun or any of his abilities or techniques. This is important, because if IH changes the fundamental nature of the omniverse enough, there simply won't be a Pun Pun to fight, or the being that is being fought isn't Pun Pun as we know him. Everything that exists in D&D 3.5 must still exist and function when IH is added for such a fight to have meaning. Now, IF this assumption holds, Pun Pun will almost certainly win for a variety of reasons. Manipulate Form is an instantaneous effect, so it is not able to be 'dispelled' in the classic sense. Abilities Pun Pun has gained by virtue of having Manipulate Form don't spontaneously go away when Manipulate Form is lost, so abilities similar/identical to those of the Mortiverse already belong to Pun Pun before the battle begins. Furthermore, through the 'Monty' routine, Pun Pun has a duplicate of himself that exists in the Far Realm, which is an area that is not part of any multiverse according to D&D 3.5 material. This duplicate's only purpose is to constantly 'sample' the multiverse's timestream to see if Pun Pun is still in existence at that time. Causing Pun Pun to die or cease to exist in any fashion within the normal universe will alert 'Monty' to rewind everything using a Time Regression infinite loop to the round just before there was a real danger to Pun Pun's existence, allowing him to take whatever measures are necessary. Now, this all falls apart if there is no Far Realm, but that runs counter to the assumption we have to make to make this matchup meaningful. Since there exists an Epic Spell that can bind Mortiverse, and since Pun Pun will always have at least one round to act before Mortiverse can put him in any danger, Pun Pun will be able to bind the Being and, in a sense 'win' the fight.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 09:30 AM	Yeah, I have the same problem as you. I've been waiting for Ascenion for monthes now, although there is alot of information about it on Dicefreaks and EnWorld. As to the Far Realm thing, its not that it doesn't exist, but rather that the omniversal Kosmos is far far far bigger than the Multiverse, so the monty has alot more to worry about than in the regular Multiverse. Hell, A Nexus Dragon, a mere Cr 720ish creatue is immune to anything that requires a Fort or Will save and nullifies Pun-Pun's strongest ability. Not that he should worry, but he still has to think to get rid of it. Also, with this system can Pun Pun actually have Infinite Divine Ranks, sice that would mean that he composes an infinite number of universes to gain the time lord template that many times?
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 12:57 PM	Alright, I concede that Pun Pun wins, if only through being able to duplicate that spell. Or is it that when you cancel out the infinities, Pun Pun still has infinite stats while the Mortiverse has only 30+ digit stats? As for the whole multiverse arguement, I'm pretty sure that the entire DnD Great Whell setting fits into a single dimension in the IH Kosmos, so there really wouldn't be anywhere to hide, but that's irrelevent. I guess the only reason Pun-PUn wins is because of the open-endedness of Manipulate Form. Was that an oversight or was it intentional in the rules? Pun-Pun is Spanish for "rules oversight". Well, not really, but he is the very embodiment of the following incredibly stupidly designed rules: Pazuzu - granting wish to low-level characters at no cost the first time Summoning/Gate - it's too easy to create permanent items with these spells Manipulate Form - any ability in the game Pun-Pun has infinite actions. He shouldn't have too much of a problem "composing" universes.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 01:42 PM	So, how exactly does Pun Pun obtain the following? Infinite Actions Truly Infinite Stats Limitless Time Travel And has WotC seriously not errata'd Manipulate Form? If it was limited to published material he would become much weaker, but since it isn't, it looks like Pun Pun wins everytime. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Pun Pun is the name of an endpoint, not a character, correct? He just usually manifests as a Kobold?
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 01:47 PM	So, how exactly does Pun Pun obtain the following? You've got me doing some digging Infinite Actions Truly Infinite Stats Infinite damage loop+Masochism=infinite bonus to a lot of things. For the ability scores, uncapped+infinite actions=infinite stats Limitless Time Travel Far Realms. Outside of time. And has WotC seriously not errata'd Manipulate Form? They don't care. Pun-Pun doesn't disrupt any games. If it was limited to published material he would become much weaker, but since it isn't, it looks like Pun Pun wins everytime. All this stuff is published, BTW. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Pun Pun is the name of an endpoint, not a character, correct? He just usually manifests as a Kobold? It's the build. "Pun-Pun" means "using Manipulate Form to gain infinite everything". Pun-Pun is the name of the build
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 02:04 PM	So what about infinite actions then? Or do you not know? I think I'll go read over the thread myself to clarify these things. Thanks though Edit: Okay, I saw the affinity field, synchronicty, font of power thing. Two questions: What is Synchronicty and does it really give him infinite actions or just infinite readied standard actions?
Frobojoe 09-28-07, 03:50 PM	Alright, I concede that Pun Pun wins, if only through being able to duplicate that spell. Or is it that when you cancel out the infinities, Pun Pun still has infinite stats while the Mortiverse has only 30+ digit stats? As for the whole multiverse arguement, I'm pretty sure that the entire DnD Great Whell setting fits into a single dimension in the IH Kosmos, so there really wouldn't be anywhere to hide, but that's irrelevent. I guess the only reason Pun-PUn wins is because of the open-endedness of Manipulate Form. Was that an oversight or was it intentional in the rules? Since basically all of Pun-Pun's power comes from Manipulate Form, wouldn't he just collapse like a house of cards as soon as Mortiverse used Abrogate and took away his Manipulate Form? My argument was based on the premise that Pun-Pun doesn't have access to any IH material, which is obviously different from what everyone else is assuming.
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 03:54 PM	Since basically all of Pun-Pun's power comes from Manipulate Form, wouldn't he just collapse like a house of cards as soon as Mortiverse used Abrogate and took away his Manipulate Form? My argument was based on the premise that Pun-Pun doesn't have access to any IH material, which is obviously different from what everyone else is assuming. Pun-Pun can sense the future, then bubble the multiverse. Essentially he makes the entire universe timeless, so he can exist an infinite amount of time before Mortiverse arrives. He could potentially find a way to get a very very high Spellcraft bonus without stuff Mortiverse can abrogate, then dismiss the bubble and cast the spell.
EjoThims 09-28-07, 04:02 PM	Since basically all of Pun-Pun's power comes from Manipulate Form, wouldn't he just collapse like a house of cards as soon as Mortiverse used Abrogate and took away his Manipulate Form? No. Manipulate Form grants him the abilities. Once the ability is granted, he simply has that ability, even if he no longer has manipulate form.
Frobojoe 09-28-07, 04:06 PM	No. Manipulate Form grants him the abilities. Once the ability is granted, he simply has that ability, even if he no longer has manipulate form. Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.
EjoThims 09-28-07, 04:14 PM	Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. Also, why are you assuming that Pun-Pun does not have access to the same ruleset that his opponent does? It's like asking who would win ina boxing match, Mike Tyson or the kid from across the street. Oh, but the kid gets a 20' tall Mecha suit and a flamethrower. Obviously the kid will win. But put them both in that suit with that flamethrower... Now that'd be something to watch on pay-per-view. :D
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 04:21 PM	This might be a little tangental, but the woridng of abrogate itself seems rather obscure to me. Because if Pun Pun's most powerful ability is his ability to manipulate the Time Stream into always assuring that he knows of a coming threat and goes first is his strongest ability, then doesn't that level the playing field once more? Or is that not how aborgate works?
Xamo'das 09-28-07, 04:41 PM	Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. Frankly, Wintermute, arguing that Pun-Pun can be upstaged through IH material is hopeless, since he - due to the poor wording of the Manipulate Form ability - can grant himself any arbitrary ability that he wants.
CrimsonDeath 09-28-07, 05:23 PM	Infinite Actions There are a lot of ways to do this one, but I can explain one of the less cheesy ones. (I never did buy into Synchronicity/Affinity Field.) Greater Celerity (Spell Compendium) is an Immediate action that grants a Full Round action, but Dazes you the next round. Pun-Pun has it at will as a spell-like ability. (Incidentally, Favored of the Martyr grants you immunity to daze; he has that as a spell-like ability too.) Divine Impetus (Tome of Battle, class feature of Ruby Knight Vindicator) lets you expend a Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead attempt as a Free action to grant yourself another Swift action in the same round. Since Pun-Pun can both turn and rebuke undead at will, he can do this at will too. Pun-Pun is also never flat-footed for various reasons, including Foresight as a spell-like ability at will. So, he can take as many full-round actions as he wants in response to anything else, just before what he's responding to happens. He also has Time Stop at will (which he can Maximize and Empower as often as he likes) and Temporal Acceleration at will (at an arbitrarily high manifester level), in case he wants to use Manipulate Form, which incapacitates him for a few rounds. (I forget whether there's a way to simply ignore that side effect.)
malakaiunseen 09-28-07, 06:11 PM	And the answer is... V V V V
Frobojoe 09-28-07, 06:14 PM	Also, why are you assuming that Pun-Pun does not have access to the same ruleset that his opponent does? It's like asking who would win ina boxing match, Mike Tyson or the kid from across the street. Oh, but the kid gets a 20' tall Mecha suit and a flamethrower. Obviously the kid will win. But put them both in that suit with that flamethrower... Now that'd be something to watch on pay-per-view. :D Cuz then it's actually interesting. If you give Pun-Pun the IH rules, you have no fight.
EjoThims 09-28-07, 06:20 PM	Cuz then it's actually interesting. If you give Pun-Pun the IH rules, you have no fight. And the combatants are incompatable with the IH rules, so there is no fight. Essentially, either there is no fight, or Pun-Pun wins.
malakaiunseen 09-28-07, 06:34 PM	So basically, there is only on way which I could think of that Morti could win. By most people's admission, killing Pun Pun before he becomes Pun Pun isnt really a challenge, becasue ur just killing a Kobold. But if you were to kill, ALL THE Kobolds, and all the sentient lifeforms which could possibly become a Pun Pun, BEFORE ANY OF THEM EVER GOT A CHANCE TO BECOME PUN PUN then that should be killing Pun Pun. For this to be a level playing field, essentially, Morti, and his proposed opponents would have to be born at the same time, because if one were born before the other, then it would be uber unfair. Now, seeing as Morti is simply an arbitrary coalescence of too many numbers, he is, I guess, a unique being, but because no process has been determined for how he becmes this way, or rather the process has been stated as the result of a late night boredome attack, it is evident that Morti arrives in the universe in his current state. Therefore, if he arrives in the universe at total power, and any Pun Pun wannabe's arrive as havent-even-opened-their-eyes-yet-babies, let alone managed to get all the other circumstances necessary to achieve Pun Pundome together, Morti can simply destroy everything before a Pun Pun can ever exist. No more Pun Pun, Morti lives, Pun Pun doesnt. That said, Pun Pun is much cooler, not only for the fact that he actually uses real character progression, and published rules to acheive multiple infiniteness, but also because he could simply have an ability that states, I WIN this ability is immune to any counter abilities which may perport to rob the user of this very ability. In fact, absolutely nothing ever written in any incarnation of any kind of verse, currently concieved or not, can ever jeapordise the absolute and undeniable indestructability and unsurpassability of Pun Pun. And thats RAW. So give it a rest. Not to mention that my earlier argument is null and void because the only way for Morti to beat Pun Pun is to stop him from ever existing, which, obviosuly means he has never defeated Pun Pun, seeing as no such being can have ever existed under those circumstances. One of Pun Puns greatest powers is that he becomes Pun Pun at the precise moment that he becomes invincible. Hence, Pun Pun is invincible. In the end, its really a question of quantum physics. The possibilities are endless, untill there is an observer. As soon as Pun Pun comes into existence, he observes his own victory, and all other possibilities cease to exist. No mish mash of numbers with a bunch of attached so-called abilites fom the godliest seeming sourcebook some guy could get his hands on could ever compete with the RAW loopholes that Pun Pun incarnates. Peace to all Pun Pun supporters, and better luck next time to all those in denial of Pun Pun's superiority. I will now defend this argument using only quotes from this argument.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 06:57 PM	Agreed, Pun Pun wins, and I'm backing off of this thread, since even contemplating how two timeless entities are confined by actions in a six secodn period of time is making my head spin. And the phrases Universe, Multiverse, Omniverse, and Mortiverse are all starting to get jumbled up.
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 07:48 PM	Mortiverse can't exterminate kobolds, because Pun-Pun can travel through time!
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 08:08 PM	Are you really going to start that? Time is such an ambiguous concept at this level of power. The way I interpret Slipstream (or whatever Pun Pun has) is that no matter where in time they are projected, they are always the same since their actual essence is unbound by the fetters of time and exists outside of the timestream completely. And tell me this, is Pun Pun genocidal or something? If the Mortiverse can't harm him why would he bother fighting it? What exactly does Pun Pun do with all that power and time? (Doesn't he ever get lonely? :weep: )
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 08:31 PM	Are you really going to start that? Time is such an ambiguous concept at this level of power. The way I interpret Slipstream (or whatever Pun Pun has) is that no matter where in time they are projected, they are always the same since their actual essence is unbound by the fetters of time and exists outside of the timestream completely. And tell me this, is Pun Pun genocidal or something? If the Mortiverse can't harm him why would he bother fighting it? What exactly does Pun Pun do with all that power and time? (Doesn't he ever get lonely? :weep: ) I had an idea for a competition/message board game/something. It goes like this: "Pun-Pun is really bored. He has decided to amuse himself by watching arena battles. Because Pun-Pun can give you any ability or change any of your stats, you can create any character you want, unbound by the limits of character creation, other then that you must be made of HD. Pun-Pun will look at the contestants, and then decide which build will provide him with the most interesting battle. Then he will watch the battle. The first battle is: Defeat the Multiheaded Tarrasque!"
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-28-07, 08:46 PM	So everyone would have infinite stats? Or would there be a limit based on the Cr of the Champion? Also, although I've been loath to adress the omnipotence paradox in this thread, I can't help it anymore. Could Pun Pun conceivably devise the means of his own destruction? Can Pun Pun create the metaphorical boulder which he cannot lift? I'm guessing that he can since he actually has rules to back up his omnipotence, unlike the beings that the paradox is usually applied to. I'm also guessing that it has something to do with his Arbitrarily HIhg stats as opposed to just having Infinite stats.
CrimsonDeath 09-28-07, 09:57 PM	So everyone would have infinite stats? Or would there be a limit based on the Cr of the Champion? Also, although I've been loath to adress the omnipotence paradox in this thread, I can't help it anymore. Could Pun Pun conceivably devise the means of his own destruction? Can Pun Pun create the metaphorical boulder which he cannot lift? I'm guessing that he can since he actually has rules to back up his omnipotence, unlike the beings that the paradox is usually applied to. I'm also guessing that it has something to do with his Arbitrarily HIhg stats as opposed to just having Infinite stats. Sure. Manipulate Form can remove abilities just as easily as it grants them.
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 07:44 AM	So everyone would have infinite stats? Or would there be a limit based on the Cr of the Champion? Also, although I've been loath to adress the omnipotence paradox in this thread, I can't help it anymore. Could Pun Pun conceivably devise the means of his own destruction? Can Pun Pun create the metaphorical boulder which he cannot lift? I'm guessing that he can since he actually has rules to back up his omnipotence, unlike the beings that the paradox is usually applied to. I'm also guessing that it has something to do with his Arbitrarily HIhg stats as opposed to just having Infinite stats. More interesting is the actual boulder that he cannot lift. Because if he can, he can create one which is just barely a light load. See, because his Str is infinite, his carrying capacity is uncountably infinite. Due to Hulking Hurler and Masochism, he could then gain all uncountably infinite stats.
NinjaPenguin 09-29-07, 09:51 AM	In response to the comment that the moment of birth matters: Pun Pun can activate the Pun Pun sequence before he is born, assuming at least one Unholy Scion Kobold exists. That individual can become Pun Pun while still in the womb. It is completely insane. :)
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 10:02 AM	In response to the comment that the moment of birth matters: Pun Pun can activate the Pun Pun sequence before he is born, assuming at least one Unholy Scion Kobold exists. That individual can become Pun Pun while still in the womb. It is completely insane. :) Fetus=mindless, probably, or animal intellect. What is this "Unholy Scion" you speak of?
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-29-07, 10:11 AM	Fetus=mindless, probably, or animal intellect. What is this "Unholy Scion" you speak of? It's a template applied to a fetus (I think it's in Heroes of Horror) that solves the problem of your first statement.
CrimsonDeath 09-29-07, 10:31 AM	It's a template applied to a fetus (I think it's in Heroes of Horror) that solves the problem of your first statement. Basically an infant that's posessed by a fiend in the womb (or the egg, in the case of reptilian creatures). Basically, you have until it's born to exorcise it, or the fiend and infant fuse into one creature and your only choice is to kill it or join it. It also allows the fetus some control over the mother's actions, although I forget how much.
Buugipopuu 09-29-07, 11:26 AM	I can't believe nobody has noticed this: Pun Pun cannot win. The Mortiverse has every portfolio. This means it has Pariah of Greed. This means that any spell or effect targeted on its user ceases to function within the Mortiverse's Divine Realm, which is everywhere, because it's a Time Lord, and is always within its Divine Realm, as it has dominated every Dimension (every portfolio). Pun Pun gains all of its abilities through Manipulate Form, so all of its abilities cease to function as soon as the Mortiverse comes into existence, as they are results of an effect targeted on their user.
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 12:34 PM	I can't believe nobody has noticed this: Pun Pun cannot win. The Mortiverse has every portfolio. This means it has Pariah of Greed. This means that any spell or effect targeted on its user ceases to function within the Mortiverse's Divine Realm, which is everywhere, because it's a Time Lord, and is always within its Divine Realm, as it has dominated every Dimension (every portfolio). Pun Pun gains all of its abilities through Manipulate Form, so all of its abilities cease to function as soon as the Mortiverse comes into existence, as they are results of an effect targeted on their user. Pun-Pun's stats change. It's not permanent, it's instantaneous. About the scion: can it talk? If no, pazuzu won't work what alignment is it? CE won't work, LE will suck, NE will suck Does it have skill points? Is knowledge class? Can it take feats? What is its Int modifier?
malakaiunseen 09-29-07, 12:38 PM	I can't believe nobody has noticed this: Pun Pun cannot win. The Mortiverse has every portfolio. This means it has Pariah of Greed. This means that any spell or effect targeted on its user ceases to function within the Mortiverse's Divine Realm, which is everywhere, because it's a Time Lord, and is always within its Divine Realm, as it has dominated every Dimension (every portfolio). Pun Pun gains all of its abilities through Manipulate Form, so all of its abilities cease to function as soon as the Mortiverse comes into existence, as they are results of an effect targeted on their user. oo oo! I got this one, Pun Pun has this ability, plus anything else which may be required to negate anything morti can throw at him... "I WIN This ability is immune to any counter abilities which may perport to rob the user of this very ability. In fact, absolutely nothing ever written in any incarnation of any kind of verse, currently concieved or not, can ever jeapordise the absolute and undeniable indestructability and unsurpassability of Pun Pun." okthxgg
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-29-07, 12:58 PM	I'm not sure if it works this way or not, but if there is a finite amount of divine ranks (or whatever the IH uses) and Mortiverse has them all, the shouldn't that prevent Pun Pun from gaining any divinity? Of course, he can duplicate all of this abilities as non-divine su, ex, or sla abilities anyways, so once again, Pun Pun wins
Buugipopuu 09-29-07, 01:17 PM	Pun-Pun's stats change. It's not permanent, it's instantaneous. An instantaneous effect is still an effect, which means it still ceases to function. Being instantaneous just means it can't be dispelled. The effect is still there, it just doesn't do anything.
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 01:46 PM	An instantaneous effect is still an effect, which means it still ceases to function. Being instantaneous just means it can't be dispelled. The effect is still there, it just doesn't do anything. Steve has had 71 cure light wounds cast on him. Mortiverse walks in and he taks 71d8+71 damage for being uncured? Its not an effect. Its a change to Pun-Pun's statistics.
RadicalTaoist 09-29-07, 01:59 PM	Oh man, the Punster's time abuse is even worse than you think. He's already got access to Temporal Acceleration and can give it infinite duration, which is an infinite number of rounds of action on his own turn outside of the initiative count. But is that all? With the ToB, Pun-Pun can snag Divine Impetus (infinite swift actions), White Raven Tactics (swift action, reset an ally's initiative count to yours -1), and Moment of Clarity (immediate increase your own initiative count by 20). Those last two state that they do allow you to have more effective rounds than the poor guys you're facing who don't have them, and Pun-Pun can use all three of them an infinite number of times whenever he wants. He also has numerous means of cloning himself (the worst being the Temporal Regression body-copying). So he can make a nigh-infinite number of clones, set his initiative count to nigh-infinitely high and then give all his clones that initiative count -1, and then use his time travel tricks to allow them to act before they were allowed to act in a round, in rounds before they existed, or even jumping later to rounds and initiative counts they haven't seen yet (with Time Hop, which makes them completely invulnerable while they're outside of time). This he can do as one of his infinite reactions to any event he wants. The Mortiverse is a brace of nuclear bombs. In fact, it's an infinite amount of nuclear bombs. But Pun-Pun is the strong electromagnetic force. It's impossible, within the nature of the reality they share, for Pun-Pun to be overcome. You have to change the rules.
Buugipopuu 09-29-07, 02:09 PM	Steve has had 71 cure light wounds cast on him. Mortiverse walks in and he taks 71d8+71 damage for being uncured? Its not an effect. Its a change to Pun-Pun's statistics. Actually, you lie. The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind. It's permanent, so there's absolutely no case you can make for it not ceasing to function. With the ToB, Pun-Pun can snag Divine Impetus (infinite swift actions), White Raven Tactics (swift action, reset an ally's initiative count to yours -1), and Moment of Clarity (immediate increase your own initiative count by 20). Those last two state that they do allow you to have more effective rounds than the poor guys you're facing who don't have them, and Pun-Pun can use all three of them an infinite number of times whenever he wants. He also has numerous means of cloning himself (the worst being the Temporal Regression body-copying). So he can make a nigh-infinite number of clones, set his initiative count to nigh-infinitely high and then give all his clones that initiative count -1, and then use his time travel tricks to allow them to act before they were allowed to act in a round, in rounds before they existed, or even jumping later to rounds and initiative counts they haven't seen yet (with Time Hop, which makes them completely invulnerable while they're outside of time). This he can do as one of his infinite reactions to any event he wants. Actually he can't do any of that. Not only does the Mortiverse have Pariah of Greed, it also has Pariah of Community, so spells and effects used on allies cease to function as well. You have no buffs. At all.
EjoThims 09-29-07, 02:49 PM	Actually he can't do any of that. Not only does the Mortiverse have Pariah of Greed, it also has Pariah of Community And so does Pun-Pun. And he has all the counters to them as well.
Buugipopuu 09-29-07, 03:10 PM	And so does Pun-Pun. And he has all the counters to them as well. No, he doesn't. The Portfolio Powers are never described as "abilities", and aren't extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural (with the exception of the free SLAs, which are obsolete by the time Alter Reality shows up anyway), even though some may mimic the effects of Divine or better abilities, so Manipulate Form can't grant them. This is compounded by the fact that the powers require the user to have a Divine Realm to be of any use, and Divine Realm isn't a supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary ability, and Pun-Pun won't have a high enough Divine Age to have a realm of appreciable size even he did have one.
EjoThims 09-29-07, 03:14 PM	No, he doesn't. The Portfolio Powers are never described as "abilities", and aren't extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural Your point being? Pun-Pun can grant himsef Ex, Sp, or Su versions of all those abilities, or he could grant himself an Ex, Sp, or Su ability that allows him to grant other ability types with manipulate form. I think you have completely failed to realize just how open-endedly broken manipulate form is.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-29-07, 03:42 PM	Buugipopuu, as sorry as I am to say it, the Mortiverse loses. We're not going to win this arguement. As much as I would enjoy seeing Pun Pun get knocked off of his pedastel, its not going to happen. Obviously, the Mortiverse should win, but Manipulate Form is just too damn cheap. I entered this debate not really up to date on Pun Pun's abilities, but as soon as I saw just what that lttile monster is capable of, I backed out. As sad as it is, the Mortiverse loses; its not fair, but its just the way it is. But, hey if you find some way to convince all these Pun Pun fans otherwise, I'll be the first person to join the Mortiverse's side again. Also, I really don't think that either one of these entities are lacking for actions/round or time manipulating abilities. Seriuosly, if Pun Pun's going to win, its not going to be through some cheap stupid time loop. What this actually really comes down to is that Pun Pun couldn't actually come to power in a game/setting where the Mortiverse exists, so the whole debate is really kind of invalid. Edit: Even though this helps the other side, here's the EPic Spell that contains the Mortiverse, copied from EnWorld. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Epic Spell: Difficulty 500 Name: Contain Mortiverse Effect: A little Black Box made of glasteeled black obsidian that turns about itself with nine blocks on a side(gives DMs a reason to keep a rubic cube with all the stickers off of it hanging around.) this immprisons the Mortiverse unless the Mortiverse fails its save....inside the box its pain and longing is temperarily neutralized and thus worth remaining however it is still aware yet unable to affect anything outside of the box which is really afocus for a closed dimension..........the fact that it can hear as see for about five feet is reason to keep it in a dark location yet it can hear so seal it up tight ........do not put this in a bag of Holding for if you do it will rend the bag and release the Mortiverse into the Astral Cyclone thus connected such bags are to the Ethereal and Astral Planes.....not to mention the rending of a planar chasm. Components:Black mechanical Box made in Sigil from glass that comes from the spire at the center of the concordinat plane of opposition otherwise known as the Outlands........and a drop of blood from a creature of any sort from each of the surrounding planes...........the last required component is the death of the caster by any means after casting the spell the box only need come in contact with the Mortiverse afterward.... Time to cast:1 full Day
Deamon 09-29-07, 04:03 PM	Is manipulate form a class ability?
Buugipopuu 09-29-07, 04:53 PM	Buugipopuu, as sorry as I am to say it, the Mortiverse loses. We're not going to win this arguement. As much as I would enjoy seeing Pun Pun get knocked off of his pedastel, its not going to happen. Obviously, the Mortiverse should win, but Manipulate Form is just too damn cheap. I entered this debate not really up to date on Pun Pun's abilities, but as soon as I saw just what that lttile monster is capable of, I backed out. As sad as it is, the Mortiverse loses; its not fair, but its just the way it is. But, hey if you find some way to convince all these Pun Pun fans otherwise, I'll be the first person to join the Mortiverse's side again. You're a defeatist. I haven't even pulled out the big guns yet. Tenth Sense + Cosmic Inspiration (Replicate) + Cosmic Consciousness + Omnispective. It knows everything that's happening, and its senses extend into the future. Replicate allows it to copy any ability it has encountered, and it encounters everything. It can thus replicate any ability used by any being anywhere in the Universe, and any ability that any being in the Universe is going to use, before said being even thinks about using it. It can even replicate abilities used by its future self, which is handy, since it means it can replicate an ability used by anything at any point in the future, by creating a chain or usages and replications. From this, it's trivial to obtain Manipulate Form, and do the very tricks Pun-Pun does to gain power, but do them faster, since having every Portfolio and every Class Feature cuts a large chunk out of the abilities it needs to know. And the beauty of it is that with Tenth Sense, it will always be able to pre-empt Pun-Pun, and do any power-gaining trick he tries first, before Pun-Pun even thinks about doing it. It also doesn't even need to take any actions to replicate abilities. Changing Cosmic Inspiration is a free action. Edit: Even though this helps the other side, here's the EPic Spell that contains the Mortiverse, copied from EnWorld. It's only a Spellcraft DC Infinity to cast a spell which wards against "the spells contained within the set of all spells" and has a permanent duration and the Mortiverse knows all spells. There's no spell that can contain it.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-29-07, 05:13 PM	Is manipulate form a class ability? I wish; it's the ability of a monster from Serpent Kingdoms.
EjoThims 09-29-07, 05:30 PM	You're a defeatist. I haven't even pulled out the big guns yet. Tenth Sense + Cosmic Inspiration (Replicate) + Cosmic Consciousness + Omnispective. It knows everything that's happening, and its senses extend into the future. Replicate allows it to copy any ability it has encountered, and it encounters everything. It can thus replicate any ability used by any being anywhere in the Universe, and any ability that any being in the Universe is going to use, before said being even thinks about using it. It can even replicate abilities used by its future self, which is handy, since it means it can replicate an ability used by anything at any point in the future, by creating a chain or usages and replications. So can Pun-Pun. Anything anyone can do, Pun-Pun can do. From this, it's trivial to obtain Manipulate Form, and do the very tricks Pun-Pun does to gain power, Congratulations! The Mortiverse is now Pun-Pun. And if Pun-Pun beats Pun-Pun, who has won? That's right... Pun-Pun!
Buugipopuu 09-29-07, 06:14 PM	So can Pun-Pun. Anything anyone can do, Pun-Pun can do. Pun-Pun needs to take actions to gain abilities, or at least take actions to gain an ability that allows it to gain abilities without taking actions. The Mortiverse gains said abilities as a free action, and it is guaranteed to be the first being in the Universe with any given ability if said ability is worth having. Congratulations! The Mortiverse is now Pun-Pun. And if Pun-Pun beats Pun-Pun, who has won? That's right... Pun-Pun! No, Pun Pun is a Kobold Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3, as listed in the top of this thread. The Mortiverse is a Octodecaogdoad Nona-Macrobe Amidah Apocalyptic Black-Hole-Spawned Legion Elder Unelemental. Just because Pun-Pun is so laughably weak that the entirety of its abilities are contained within the set of "abilities possessed by the Mortiverse", doesn't mean that the Mortiverse is Pun-Pun, any more than Pun-Pun is a 1st level Wizard.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-29-07, 06:32 PM	See, all the Mortiverse needed was someone with access and the comprehension of U_K's Ascension book.
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 06:51 PM	Pun-Pun sees the future! He sees the future, bubbles, kills stuff to gain XP until he can research that spell! Also with all his spell.
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 06:58 PM	Just because Pun-Pun is so laughably weak Stop calling Pun-Pun laughably weak! He is a 1st level character, you know. Even without Pazuzu, Moritverse's CR has about as many digits as Pun-Pun's ECL IS. I'm sorry I can't beat your jillion-CRed work of insanity. Also, the debate was implicitly "Mortiverse w/o Pun-Pun trick" vs. "First level human paladin w/o Pun-Pun trick". Pun-Pun can beat a 1st level wizard without using wizard spells. Can Mortiverse beat Pun-Pun without using poorly designed abilities? No, because Pun-Pun can see the future. Oh, and yes Pun-Pun couldn't exist in a universe with Mortiverse in it. Because normal D&D play happens in millions of games, we assume that almost all universes don't have Mortiverse in them.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-29-07, 07:35 PM	As an aside, most normal DMs don't play with Pun Pun either Also, I dont why I didn't bring this up to begin with. here's the IH breakdown of Pun Pun http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180181
RadicalTaoist 09-29-07, 07:50 PM	Actually he can't do any of that. Not only does the Mortiverse have Pariah of Greed, it also has Pariah of Community, so spells and effects used on allies cease to function as well. You have no buffs. At all. You have to catch Pun-Pun unguarded. The only way to do that, due to Pun-Pun's infinite divine rank and thus infinite Portfolio Sense, is to not affect the world at all (he can, instantaneously, raise his DvR to N, where N is a number greater than the remaining lifespan of the universe measured in weeks), or to destroy Pun-Pun before he ascends (which is killing a level 1 character). If Morty will ever bring it to a universe which Pun-Pun inhabits, Pun-Pun will know (and Pun-Pun can automatically inform any number of the infinite Pun-Puns on infinite Shadow-plane-connected universes). I'd need more info on this Timeslip ability of Morty's, as well as an understanding of what Morty's feats do (and are there any special caveats on those feats?). But so far, all I see is that Morty possesses closed abilities that say "I'm faster and go first". Pun-Pun breaks the notion of speed, as his actions no longer function with a time limit or opportunity limit, plus he already knows which potential events in his potential environment will occur and can place his 'reaction' whenever he wants. Pun-Pun needs to take actions to gain abilities, or at least take actions to gain an ability that allows it to gain abilities without taking actions. The Mortiverse gains said abilities as a free action, and it is guaranteed to be the first being in the Universe with any given ability if said ability is worth having. The catch is that Pun-Pun's ability gaining mechanic is proactive and open-ended, where Morty's is closed and reactive. Pun-Pun creates a new ability worded as "cannot be copied by [list of abilities Morty has]" if he wants to be cheap. No, Pun Pun is a Kobold Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3, as listed in the top of this thread. The Mortiverse is a Octodecaogdoad Nona-Macrobe Amidah Apocalyptic Black-Hole-Spawned Legion Elder Unelemental. Just because Pun-Pun is so laughably weak that the entirety of its abilities are contained within the set of "abilities possessed by the Mortiverse", doesn't mean that the Mortiverse is Pun-Pun, any more than Pun-Pun is a 1st level Wizard. Pun-Pun is any average member of any class of any species that doesn't possess a penalty to Intelligence, as long as they exist in a universe with a Plane of Shadow and a copy of Pazuzu. If there's no Pazuzu, they just need to get their hands on a single Candle of Invocation. Hell, the fact that there might be theoretically more Pun-Puns in possible universes (neverminding that he could instantaneously spawn himself in every universe connected by a Plane of Shadow) leaves Morty outnumbered. However, that still leaves a theoretically CR 1 entity with an open-ended ability within the rules challenging a CR Ridiculously High entity who depends on rules written to give him his abilities but can't write exceptions to those rules himself.
CrimsonDeath 09-29-07, 09:16 PM	Note also that Pun-Pun can replicate himself in a variety of ways, including the Split (Ex) racial ability common to puddings and claw attacks that do slashing damage.
SiuiS 09-29-07, 09:43 PM	Alright, so, I haven't read through the whole thing yet (The first page was ful of enough "nuh-uh!" and "it seems to me, that; Pun-pun is strong due to being the most powerful at anything AND This mortiverse critcher, is strong due to entirely negating any streangth it's target could possibly have, in a way the target cannot defend against. It also seems, vaguely, like someone decided to pit a college student against the winner of the middle-school spelling bee for fun. so, meh. Fun as a mental excercise, but the animosity here is kind of... Outlandish? Heh.
Buugipopuu 09-29-07, 09:53 PM	Hah. Thread over. I just remembered that you can research Epic Spells to grant divinity. And that the Mortiverse knows every spell. And can hit any Spellcraft DC of Infinity or less. It can give itself DvR Infinity as a free action, which means an infinite number of divine abilities. It also gains an Infinite number of manifestations, each which have Infinity HD, drains Infinity Quintessence, gp's worth of wealth, Experience from everything in the Universe each round, and destroys and infinite number of HD belonging to every creature in the Universe, and deals an infinite amount of Permanent Divine damage, and damage (and drain) to every ability score to every creature in the Universe. In fact, it doesn't stop there. With an infinite number of Divine Ability Slots, it gains Transcendental Presence (Multidimensional) an infinite number of times, which means each of its infinity manifestations causes every other manifestation in the Universe to gain an infinite number of additional manifestations, and so on. The result: Aleph-1 manifestations in zero time. Since the Mortiverse still knows all spells, it can then cast an epic ritual with Aleph-1 participants each granting a 1st level spell slot to gain Divine Rank Aleph-1, and start the whole process all over again. The result: Divine Rank Aleph-Aleph-0. Still in zero time, because of all the Time Dilation. You have to catch Pun-Pun unguarded. The only way to do that, due to Pun-Pun's infinite divine rank and thus infinite Portfolio Sense, is to not affect the world at all (he can, instantaneously, raise his DvR to N, where N is a number greater than the remaining lifespan of the universe measured in weeks), or to destroy Pun-Pun before he ascends (which is killing a level 1 character). If Morty will ever bring it to a universe which Pun-Pun inhabits, Pun-Pun will know (and Pun-Pun can automatically inform any number of the infinite Pun-Puns on infinite Shadow-plane-connected universes). Its Divine Rank isn't Infinity if that's the case. It's just an arbitrarily large number. It's infinitely less than the Mortiverse's DvR. So infinitely less that it would take an infinite amount of time to explain just how much less it is, and then some. His Portfolio sense is useless, since he'll never be able to make the DC Aleph-Aleph-0 Sense Motive check required to see through the Mortiverse's attempts to disguise its actions with Bluff, Disguise, Hide, and so on, so while he may sense everything, he won't be able to deduce any useful information from it. Pun-Pun is guaranteed to be caught off guard. I'd need more info on this Timeslip ability of Morty's, as well as an understanding of what Morty's feats do (and are there any special caveats on those feats?). But so far, all I see is that Morty possesses closed abilities that say "I'm faster and go first". Pun-Pun breaks the notion of speed, as his actions no longer function with a time limit or opportunity limit, plus he already knows which potential events in his potential environment will occur and can place his 'reaction' whenever he wants. You always act first. Two beings with this ability would roll for initiative normally against each other. You are unaffected by temporal effects (such as slow or temporal stasis), you cannot be undermined by time travel (someone cannot go back to your past and simply kill you as an infant for instance). If you are within the area of a time stop spell then you gain access to the additional rounds. You can travel freely through time and are capable of performing three times as many actions each round (as you strike from the immediate past, present and future). You can take twice as many actions during the round than usual. Special: You can take this ability multiple times, its effects stack. Each time you take this ability you gain an additional round of actions. Those with a dexterity score less than 70 must have one additional face/head for every time they take this ability. You can perceive an opponent's thoughts even before they have them. You know everything that is about to happen. Special: Give the player a copy of the adventure you are running. The catch is that Pun-Pun's ability gaining mechanic is proactive and open-ended, where Morty's is closed and reactive. Pun-Pun creates a new ability worded as "cannot be copied by[list of abilities Morty has]" if he wants to be cheap. Do do that he'd have to be aware of the Mortiverse's existence, which isn't going to happen. See below. Hell, the fact that there might be theoretically more Pun-Puns in possible universes (neverminding that he could instantaneously spawn himself in every universe connected by a Plane of Shadow) leaves Morty outnumbered. However, that still leaves a theoretically CR 1 entity with an open-ended ability within the rules challenging a CR Ridiculously High entity who depends on rules written to give him his abilities but can't write exceptions to those rules himself. Outnumbered? I think you'll find that Pun-Pun is outnumbered. Aleph-Aleph-0 to Infinity, which might as well be Aleph-Aleph-0 to 1 for all it matters. The Mortiverse can still engage every single one of Pun-Pun's copies with Aleph-Aleph-0 manifestations. All of which summon Aleph-Aleph-0 copies of Pun-Pun to fight against him (Paradox), and Aleph-Aleph-0 copies of his greatest nemesis (Redivivius). Can Pun-Pun beat more copies of himself than there are real numbers? Oh, and all those copies and nemeses then instantaneously gain all of the Mortiverse's Transcendental and lower abilities, which mean they all get Aleph-Aleph-0 manifestations, and Aleph-Aleph-0 actions per round, and Aleph-Aleph-0 for all stats, et cetera, et cetera. Can Pun-Pun beat that many copies of himself which are then buffed by an amount vastly more than his mere Infinite intelligence can possibly comprehend? Pun-Pun can't challenge the Mortiverse. It doesn't even need to take any actions to destroy him. It can just let all the Pun-Pun copies to the work for it. Pun-Pun can't even try to come up with any new ability to counter anything the Mortiverse has, since the Mortiverse can disguise its existence to Pun-Pun, through the use of its vastly higher skill rolls, and even render Pun-Pun incapable of foreseeing his own death, by playing the entire Universe like some giant movie set to rig events so that to Pun-Pun's portfolio sense it appears as if he lives past the moment of his own death, and doesn't need to take any actions to prevent it.
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 10:14 PM	Whoever designed that spell, I think Bugipoppu is allowed to laugh at them know. It's a little inadequate. Oh, how do you gain Time Lord templates? Pun-Pun could probably gain an infinite number of them in the first round of his infinite loopitude, which is within 2 minutes of his birth. Victory: Pun-Pun. Assuming there is a reliable method to gain Time Lord templates.
RadicalTaoist 09-29-07, 10:57 PM	You're forgetting the Omniscifer trick does allow truly infinite skill checks, as well. And I'm still not seeing how as a free action > operating outside of the round structure or how slipstream grants access to Temporal Acceleration, which is a different effect from Time Stop (although it grants additional rounds). How Pun-Pun's action engine interacts with those abilities is going to be painful to envision; I need to read up on my time theory (these three threads are the most advanced I can find atm, and our original time theory thread was apparently lost in the last board prune). I also have to know the exact means by which Morty has those abilities (are they granted by feats?) and what Morty's feats actually do.
CrimsonDeath 09-29-07, 11:40 PM	Hah. Thread over. I just remembered that you can research Epic Spells to grant divinity. Remember when I mentioned that Pun-Pun can research any Epic spell he wants in 0 time at 0 cost by adding backlash damage until the DC is 0? Yeah...
The_Mad_Linguist 09-30-07, 02:05 AM	No, he doesn't. The Portfolio Powers are never described as "abilities", and aren't extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural (with the exception of the free SLAs, which are obsolete by the time Alter Reality shows up anyway), even though some may mimic the effects of Divine or better abilities, so Manipulate Form can't grant them. This is compounded by the fact that the powers require the user to have a Divine Realm to be of any use, and Divine Realm isn't a supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary ability, and Pun-Pun won't have a high enough Divine Age to have a realm of appreciable size even he did have one. "ABILITIES" that CAN BE BOUGHT WITH FEATS! Hmm... how many feats can pun-pun get? Oh, wait a second... ALL OF THEM! there are several ways to get an extra feat for free. Such as abusing the exp transfer ritual free feats, gaining levels, gaining hitdice, et cetra. Pun-Pun has every feat in the book, unlimited free feats, and a truely infinite number (due to infinite action loops) of any feat that can be taken multiple times. Oh, and Pun-Pun has the effects of the fates card from the Deck of Many things a nigh infinite amount of times. That means whenever the Mortiverse does anything Pun-Pun doesn't like, Pun-Pun can simply say "no you didn't". He also has unlimited copies of the vizier, so he knows the optimal strategy for any circumstance. /me is very annoyed at having to repeat himself
Frobojoe 09-30-07, 02:09 AM	"ABILITIES" that CAN BE BOUGHT WITH FEATS! Hmm... how many feats can pun-pun get? Oh, wait a second... ALL OF THEM! /me is very annoyed at having to repeat himself You can't buy portfolio powers with feats, as Buugipopuu already said.
The_Mad_Linguist 09-30-07, 02:12 AM	http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3174755&postcount=60 According to the immortal's handbook, yes you can. "A Salient Divine Ability is worth six feats. A Salient Cosmic Ability is worth six SDAs. A Salient Transcendant Ability is worth six SCAs. A Salient Omnific Ability (only available to those with the Time Lord or High Lord templates) are worth six STAs." Also, fusion with an aleax of the mortiverse. Boom!
Frobojoe 09-30-07, 03:21 AM	http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3174755&postcount=60 According to the immortal's handbook, yes you can. "A Salient Divine Ability is worth six feats. A Salient Cosmic Ability is worth six SDAs. A Salient Transcendant Ability is worth six SCAs. A Salient Omnific Ability (only available to those with the Time Lord or High Lord templates) are worth six STAs." Also, fusion with an aleax of the mortiverse. Boom! And which of those categories do portfolio powers fall into? (the correct answer is none of them)
Deamon 09-30-07, 03:56 AM	I also have to know the exact means by which Morty has those abilities (are they granted by feats?) and what Morty's feats actually do.The mortiverse's abililities are divine abilities gained by virtue of being a high lord. As for what they do: -Akashic Effect, Uncanny (633,825,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 x8 divine ranks before effect modification) A blast of energy that causes the target to lose 633,825,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 x8 divine ranks, this can be done without giving the opponent a save. -Cosmic Nullification No cosmic abilities, divine abilities or feats work in the multiverse (unless the mortiverse wants them to). -Indissoluble The mortiverse has infinite fast healing. -Infinite Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma Fairly obvious. -Learned Opponent Immunity Any creature only has one round to hurt the mortiverse. -Omneity The mortiverse gains every portfolio. -Omnidimensional A new copy of the mortiverse appears every round. -Omnific Toughness The mortiverse has Infinite hitpoints. -Omniparity The mortiverse has every class feature. -Omnipresent The entire multiverse is within the mortiverse's divine aura. -Omniversal Any damage the mortiverse deals hurts all creatures within the mortiverse's divine aura, unless the mortiverse doesn't want to. -Transcendental Nescience The mortiverse can ignore the prerequisites for transcendal abilities. -Undimensional Any attack only has a 5% chance of affecting the mortiverse. I'll post the rest later.
CrimsonDeath 09-30-07, 04:21 AM	a truely infinite number (due to infinite action loops) of any feat that can be taken multiple times. I thought Pun-Pun only had an arbitrarily large number of actions... Or is Synchronicity/Affinity Field self-perpetuating?
Malchius 09-30-07, 06:39 AM	I think Pun-Pun would win simply because Pun-Pun is made using proper rules made by WoTC. Whereas the Mortiverse seems to be using abilities with fancy names that should all be called "This is a twisted and broken ability, that undermines all rules in favour of being infinitely powerful, btw there's no counter to this, you die!"
Prime361 09-30-07, 07:00 AM	I just remembered that you can research Epic Spells to grant divinity. Where are the rules for this? I never could make anything out of hte epic spell seeds, since they are so loosely defined nothing I did would be allowed even if I did manage to figure it out. I want a character to ascend and I don't want my GM to be able to stop me without using Rule 0. No I am not trying to be a jerk, I just want to be able to accomplish the character's life goal then retire him.
Buugipopuu 09-30-07, 07:52 AM	Oh, how do you gain Time Lord templates? Pun-Pun could probably gain an infinite number of them in the first round of his infinite loopitude, which is within 2 minutes of his birth. Victory: Pun-Pun. Assuming there is a reliable method to gain Time Lord templates. There's no reliable method of gaining Upper_Krustian divinity. You need to take some kind of trial, the nature of which is up to the DM, amongst other prerequisites. Said trial is almost certainly going to take a significant amount of time, even with infinite actions. Besides, two minutes of his birth? That's way too slow. The Mortiverse, through the method I outlined, gains transfinite power in the first round of its existence, at initiative Always First, for a free action. "ABILITIES" that CAN BE BOUGHT WITH FEATS! Hmm... how many feats can pun-pun get? Oh, wait a second... ALL OF THEM! Portfolio powers cannot be bought by feats, and buying anything else with feats will mean Pun-Pun is buying Esoteric Abilities, and that means that he's required to undertake a quest, the nature of which is up to the DM, to gain said ability. Since said quest will undoubtedly take a finite amount of time, it means that he'll never have the abilities in time. You'll also note that if they're bought with feat slots, they're all automatically nullified by Cosmic Nullification, which nullifies all feats, divine abilities and cosmic abilities. Oh, and Pun-Pun has the effects of the fates card from the Deck of Many things a nigh infinite amount of times. That means whenever the Mortiverse does anything Pun-Pun doesn't like, Pun-Pun can simply say "no you didn't". He also has unlimited copies of the vizier, so he knows the optimal strategy for any circumstance. So does the Mortiverse, in fact, it has every artefact, since it can create items instantaneously, and has infinite wealth and infinite experience. In fact, the Mortiverse has all the beneficial effects of those items, and Pun-Pun doesn't, because of its aleph-aleph-0 range Thieving Aura, which steals aleph-aleph-0 wealth from every being in the Universe simultaneously. It doesn't even need to take any actions to rob every being in the Universe of all of their gear. It also means that the Omniscifier trick doesn't work, since you need to make some items to start it off, and the Mortiverse owns all the wealth in existence. And, since the Mortiverse has aleph-aleph-0 copies of Soniferous, it powers up any artefact it holds to aleph-aleph-0 times its original power, so not only does it get Pun-Pun's equipment, and Pun-Pun doesn't, it's better at using Pun-Pun's own gear than he is. Remember when I mentioned that Pun-Pun can research any Epic spell he wants in 0 time at 0 cost by adding backlash damage until the DC is 0? Yeah... It takes a minimum of one day to research any epic spell, even one with a DC of zero. That's far too long. You're forgetting the Omniscifer trick does allow truly infinite skill checks, as well. And I'm still not seeing how as a free action > operating outside of the round structure or how slipstream grants access to Temporal Acceleration, which is a different effect from Time Stop (although it grants additional rounds). It allows for truly infinite skill checks, but requires outside help. Thus it takes a finite amount of time to complete, and so by the time it's done, Pun-Pun will have already lost. Why would Slipstream need to grant access to Temporal Acceleration? Thanks to the Magic-Psionics transparency, the Mortiverse has Spell-Stowaway on every spell and power that it would be beneficial to have it for (and is everywhere, so the 300ft range doesn't matter), and Manifests as an aleph-aleph-0th-level Manifester in every manifesting class. Having every class feature is handy. Where are the rules for this? I never could make anything out of hte epic spell seeds, since they are so loosely defined nothing I did would be allowed even if I did manage to figure it out. I want a character to ascend and I don't want my GM to be able to stop me without using Rule 0. No I am not trying to be a jerk, I just want to be able to accomplish the character's life goal then retire him. They're in Ascension.
EjoThims 09-30-07, 08:38 AM	No, Pun Pun is a Kobold Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3 Wrong. than Pun-Pun is a 1st level Wizard. This is possible. Pun-Pun can also be a 1st level Commoner. Pun-Pun is the trick of gaining infinite everything through Manipulate Form. The build used to achieve it is irrelevant. Your total lack of understanding continues to be obvious, and your lack of deisre to educate yourself on the matter is the reason you still have not come up with a reason the Mortiverse is better than Pun-Pun without resorting to the exact same trick that Pun-Pun uses. Your quoting of Morti's abilities is meaningless. Pun-Pun has all those abilities as Ex, Su, Sp, and any other ability type he cares for. He has them all in the same action in which he becomes Pun-Pun. There is zero time between Pun-Pun starting to ascend and when he achieves infinite everything while holding every ability, in every form, in every way that the current rule set allows. In fact, as soon as any new ruleset is added, Pun-Pun is able to have had any of those new abilities from the moment he first ascended. And honestly... The DM Fiat card? If it's possible for Morti to do it with DM Fiat, then it's possible for Pun-Pun to do it. And no, it will not take 'a significiant amount of time even with infinite actions.' Infinite actions, for Pun-Pun, is truly infinite. He can do everything, for forever, in less time than an immediate action takes, even for him. Long story short (and please, try to wrap your brain around this), if Morti can do it, Pun-Pun can do it better, faster, and in five more ways. This is not just 'fandom' of the type you're attempting to defend Morti with. This is merely how stupidly, open-endedly broken Manipulate Form is.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 09:53 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Mortiverse's very existence invalidate the concept of Pun Pun ever rising to power? I thought that the consensus was that if a being of infinite stature were to arise than it would automatically takes steps to prevent, and therefore invalidate the possibility of a bieng of similar potency from ever coming to power. And since the Mortiverse, is we allow the conjecture that it does in fact exist, has always existed and always exist, then should that not completely prevent Pun Pun from ever rising to power?
Buugipopuu 09-30-07, 09:56 AM	Wrong. Read the OP. It links to the build used in this thread, not whatever build you're thinking of. Your total lack of understanding continues to be obvious, and your lack of deisre to educate yourself on the matter is the reason you still have not come up with a reason the Mortiverse is better than Pun-Pun without resorting to the exact same trick that Pun-Pun uses. Oh ho. I've been deliberately avoiding doing this because I'm such a nice guy, and was keeping the moral high ground and not using the loose wording of Manipulate Form to have abilities that aren't published, which is underhanded and lame. But if you insist on interpreting the rules that way, you may note that in order for the Mortiverse to mimic an ability with Replicate, it merely has to have encountered it. It doesn't say it has to have encountered it in combat, or even encountered it being used by a creature that actually exists, or even encountered it during the course of actual events which happen, that the ability in question must be published, or any limitations on what must be done to "encounter" the ability. Thus, using its aleph-aleph-0 actions, the Mortiverse runs its own D&D game with a creature which has the ability: Omniability You have every ability contained within the set of abilities which it is beneficial to possess. By playing a game in which this ability is on a creature, it encounters the ability, and thus replicates it with Replicate. What's really neat is that abilities copied with Replicate may be used "at any time". Not "at any time after encountering the ability", or even "at any time after taking Replicate", meaning the Mortiverse has every beneficial ability contained within the set of all abilities from the beginning of time, without taking any actions at all. I win, and I didn't even touch Manipulate Form. Happy now?
Phantom Llama 09-30-07, 10:08 AM	Seriously, you can't beat the IH in a battle of loosely worded abilities. We keep having to remind UK to specify things like what kind of action something is.
RadicalTaoist 09-30-07, 10:28 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Mortiverse's very existence invalidate the concept of Pun Pun ever rising to power? I thought that the consensus was that if a being of infinite stature were to arise than it would automatically takes steps to prevent, and therefore invalidate the possibility of a bieng of similar potency from ever coming to power. And since the Mortiverse, is we allow the conjecture that it does in fact exist, has always existed and always exist, then should that not completely prevent Pun Pun from ever rising to power? The catch is that this qualifies as killing Pun-Pun pre-ascension, which most commoners can do. Likewise, if it's argued that the Mortiverse eats every universe to prevent Pun-Pun from ever rising (assuming this is possible as Pun-Pun doesn't somehow get his hands on that 'can't be undone by time travel' ability), then you're making an argument that there could never be a conflict. In the attempts to topple Pun-Pun, we've already assumed a challenger hasn't been pre-emptively scrubbed along with the rest of the universe by a Pun-Pun who'd rather destroy everything than risk the slightest threat. Without this base assumption, the comparison is meaningless. It'd be like asking what would Pun-Pun do if he was formed in one of the universe which composes the Mortiverse. Why would he want to bring it to himself? He'd just ascend, set the internal universes in order, then brew some cosmic lemonade and chill with Morty. The only conflict situation that's at all meaningful to debate is Pun-Pun post-ascension and Morty pre-eating everything. That said, I'm seeing this debate go nowhere as long as the Pun-Pun defenders don't understand the IH and the Morty defenders don't understand the Manipulate Form mechanics. Like this idea that Pun-Pun would actually have to meet prerequisites or *snigger* go on quests to grab any of this stuff? Prerequisites and qualifications are for suckers who don't have Manipulate Form. Likewise, I don't see how Morty turning himself into the DM invalidates our admission that the DM wins, because the DM can ban Serpent Kingdoms and the Immortals Handbook (setting both of these two in their place). And I'm still not quite getting how these IH abilities are gained, although I haven't seen anything indicating Pun-Pun couldn't snag them through various methods. We also need a framework to explain the causal interactions, because both Pun-Pun and Morty are operating completely outside of the normal time framework. Specifically, the limitations on Magic-Psionics transparency mean that while powers and spells affect each other, items, skills, and feats that affect magic or psionics are not transparent (example case: Combat Manifestation or the metapsionic feats). And there is no Psionic equivalent for Spell Stowaway I can find in the rules as written. Of course, we're going to have to find how Perfect Initiative works when everyone's operating on different causal levels. This debate's not going to get past yelling at each other if we don't advance some theory.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-30-07, 10:35 AM	The Mortiverse looses simply because it's based on a Umbral Blot, which is a construct. Someone had to build it.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 10:38 AM	Really? I could swear that it was based on an Unelemental
Jolkuna 09-30-07, 11:02 AM	Can't pun pun just create an "always win" ability? It makes him win in all multiverses, kosmoses, timelines, and in everything there ever is anywhere and it cannot be taken away as its feature is that it can not be removed by anyone, and using the ability doesn't require any actions or any thought or anything. Heck he just wins?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-30-07, 11:10 AM	Can't pun pun just create an "always win" ability? It makes him win in all multiverses, kosmoses, timelines, and in everything there ever is anywhere and it cannot be taken away as its feature is that it can not be removed by anyone, and using the ability doesn't require any actions or any thought or anything. Heck he just wins? I think so yes.
AlterFrom 09-30-07, 11:19 AM	Can't pun pun just create an "always win" ability? It makes him win in all multiverses, kosmoses, timelines, and in everything there ever is anywhere and it cannot be taken away as its feature is that it can not be removed by anyone, and using the ability doesn't require any actions or any thought or anything. Heck he just wins? Covered. Page 3, Post #73: this ability is immune to any counter abilities which may perport to rob the user of this very ability. In fact, absolutely nothing ever written in any incarnation of any kind of verse, currently concieved or not, can ever jeapordise the absolute and undeniable indestructability and unsurpassability of Pun Pun. P.S. I love this topic
EjoThims 09-30-07, 11:20 AM	Read the OP. It links to the build used in this thread, not whatever build you're thinking of. Go read the Pun-Pun thread (conveniently linked in the OP for you). All the relevant builds are contained therein, and it will educate you on just exactly what you are failing to grasp here. And you still haven't won. At best you've shown that Morti can do exactly what Pun-Pun can, but with a different base ability. And your ground for it is even shakier, as it depends on a loose interpretation of the ability, while Manipulate Form specifically states it can be used in the ways Pun-Pun does.
Buugipopuu 09-30-07, 11:32 AM	Can't pun pun just create an "always win" ability? It makes him win in all multiverses, kosmoses, timelines, and in everything there ever is anywhere and it cannot be taken away as its feature is that it can not be removed by anyone, and using the ability doesn't require any actions or any thought or anything. Heck he just wins? Since such an ability is contained within the set of all abilities, the Mortiverse already has it, and an infinite number of variations on the theme due to the fact of the existence of the Replicate ability. You don't want to go down that route. The Mortiverse looses simply because it's based on a Umbral Blot, which is a construct. Someone had to build it. In the IH cosmology, Umbral Blots are Void Dragon eggs. Nobody built them. And you still haven't won. At best you've shown that Morti can do exactly what Pun-Pun can, but with a different base ability. And your ground for it is even shakier, as it depends on a loose interpretation of the ability, while Manipulate Form specifically states it can be used in the ways Pun-Pun does. I think you'll find that I have. Manipulate Form doesn't specifically state that it can be used to gain unpublished abilities, so your interpretation is just as loose. And the Replicate trick is even more powerful than the Manipulate Form trick, since it grants the abilities, but renders them usable at any time. With Manipulate Form you actually need to grant yourself abilities, with Replicate, the mere fact that the Mortiverse could use this trick at any point in time means it gets every ability that anyone could possibly conceive, and every ability that they couldn't conceive of as well. You have two options: Either you allow the obviously bogus interpretation of the text of Manipulate Form, in which case you lose, because the same interpretation allows Replicate to become even more powerful than Manipulate Form, or you don't, in which case the Mortiverse gains Divine Rank Aleph-Aleph-0 in zero time, and you still lose, because Pun-Pun needs to grant itself multiple separate abilities to do the same trick, while the Mortiverse already has those abilities on its character sheet, so the Mortiverse gets there first.
EjoThims 09-30-07, 12:45 PM	because Pun-Pun needs to grant itself multiple separate abilities to do the same trick, while the Mortiverse already has those abilities on its character sheet, so the Mortiverse gets there first. Not at all, as this is, once more, an attempt to argue for defeating Pun-Pun preascension (despite that it takes 0 time once started), and that is not, in any way, defeating Pun-Pun. The rest of that post is even more ridiculous and has already been addressed. Go read the Pun-Pun thread.
Bauglir 09-30-07, 12:49 PM	Actually, you can't encounter anything that doesn't exist. This is obvious truth. Therefore, any nonpublished abilities must belong to creatures written up by the DM (this goes back to DM fiat, but Pun-Pun has these too, anyway), or they must come from Pun-Pun. And methinks that Pun-Pun starts USING those abilities on Morty (because an ability hasn't been encountered just because a being that possesses it has been). Manipulate Form says, "any extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability." As far as I can tell, yours says, "any ability you have encountered." Manipulate Form is, in fact, more powerful.
CrimsonDeath 09-30-07, 01:03 PM	Portfolio powers cannot be bought by feats, and buying anything else with feats will mean Pun-Pun is buying Esoteric Abilities, and that means that he's required to undertake a quest, the nature of which is up to the DM, to gain said ability. He adds them to his list of racial bonus feats, for which he need not meet the prerequisites. It takes a minimum of one day to research any epic spell, even one with a DC of zero. That's far too long. Check it out. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm) "Resource Cost: The development of an epic spell uses up raw materials costing a number of gold pieces equal to 9,000 × the final Spellcraft DC of the epic spell being developed. Development Time: Developing an epic spell takes one day for each 50,000 gp in resources required to develop the spell, rounded up to whole days." The cost is multiplied by the spellcraft DC of 0 to yield a cost of 0 GP. 0 gp/50,000 gp = 0. 0 is a whole number, so no rounding needs to occur, so the spell takes 0 days to develop. What's really neat is that abilities copied with Replicate may be used "at any time". Not "at any time after encountering the ability", or even "at any time after taking Replicate", meaning the Mortiverse has every beneficial ability contained within the set of all abilities from the beginning of time, without taking any actions at all. But how would one determine, in-game, which creatures are eventually going to acquire Replicate, or what abilities they are eventually going to "encounter"? What stops a player from declaring, at character creation, that the character will eventually gain Replicate and encounter every ability, so the character should be able to use every ability even before he's born? In fact, what stops Pun-Pun from doing it? In the IH cosmology, Umbral Blots are Void Dragon eggs. Nobody built them. Not even Void Dragons?
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 01:32 PM	well, when two Void Dragons love each other very much....
Buugipopuu 09-30-07, 02:29 PM	Not at all, as this is, once more, an attempt to argue for defeating Pun-Pun preascension (despite that it takes 0 time once started), and that is not, in any way, defeating Pun-Pun. Having every ability makes this only a minor hurdle. The following is an ability: Ultimate Arbitrator of Pun-Pun You are the only being that has any say in who is or is not Pun-Pun. You may declare any number of creatures to be Pun-Pun. Being declared Pun-Pun has no mechanical benefit. Since the Mortiverse has every ability, it has that one too. Thus the Mortiverse can declare any creature to be Pun-Pun, defeat it, and have defeated Pun-Pun. This is an ability too: Ultimate Arbitrator of Manipulate Form You control all usages of Manipulate Form, at any point in or out of time or space. No creature may use Manipulate Form without your express consent. You may turn any creature that has been affected by Manipulate Form back into its original form at any time. Thus, the Mortiverse can allow Pun-Pun to ascend, but prevent him from gaining any ability that would render him a threat. Actually, you can't encounter anything that doesn't exist. This is obvious truth. Therefore, any nonpublished abilities must belong to creatures written up by the DM (this goes back to DM fiat, but Pun-Pun has these too, anyway), or they must come from Pun-Pun. And methinks that Pun-Pun starts USING those abilities on Morty (because an ability hasn't been encountered just because a being that possesses it has been). Manipulate Form says, "any extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability." As far as I can tell, yours says, "any ability you have encountered." Manipulate Form is, in fact, more powerful. You don't understand the way the trick works. The text of Replicate doesn't require that the ability in question is encountered in reality. It is instead encountered during a game of D&D being run inside the Mortiverse's mind. The text doesn't specify that the ability has to be from the same game as the one the creature gaining it is in. More easily, the following is an ability: Improved Omniability As Omniability. This always counts as encountered by the Mortiverse for the purposes of Replicate, despite the fact that I just invented it. The cost is multiplied by the spellcraft DC of 0 to yield a cost of 0 GP. 0 gp/50,000 gp = 0. 0 is a whole number, so no rounding needs to occur, so the spell takes 0 days to develop. 0 is a whole number, but it's not a whole day. It isn't even a day at all, it's the lack of a day. The smallest number of whole days it is possible to possess is one. Since 0 isn't a valid number of whole days, you round up to the next lowest valid number of whole days, which is 1. He adds them to his list of racial bonus feats, for which he need not meet the prerequisites. That's impossible. They aren't actually feats, they can only be bought with feat slots under certain circumstances. Since they aren't feats, they can't go on a list of bonus feats. But how would one determine, in-game, which creatures are eventually going to acquire Replicate, or what abilities they are eventually going to "encounter"? What stops a player from declaring, at character creation, that the character will eventually gain Replicate and encounter every ability, so the character should be able to use every ability even before he's born? In fact, what stops Pun-Pun from doing it? Time Lords and higher start with all their abilities, as they are the Universe. In order for creatures which are not Time Lords to exist, there must be Time Lords in order for there to be a Universe for them to exist in. Thus, the Time Lords with Replicate have every ability, and nobody else has Replicate because the Time Lords got there first, and prevented anyone else gaining the ability from ever becoming a possibility. Not even Void Dragons? Nope. Void Dragons, like all Adamic (Firstborn) dragons, came into being with the Universe they inhabit, through means unknown. They're older than all life in the Universe. Umbral Blots are just Void Dragon eggs which haven't hatched yet. There are no known instances of a Void Dragon laying an egg, or mentions of any means of reproduction.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-30-07, 02:38 PM	I am so getting bad flashbacks of two 4-year olds playing Cowboys and Indians... *exits thread*
Jolkuna 09-30-07, 03:36 PM	So both creatures have the ability of naming each other out. Morti can create an ability that lets it decide if pun pun exists. Pun pun can create an ability that lets it decide if morti exists. Who wins? They act equally fast? I think they zap each other out of the game. The winner is that level 1 commoner standing in the corner of his field, as the only survivor of the huge battle of these insane forces. But look! That commoner is transforming! He has become pun pun once again! *tidyy* In my eyes pun pun wins as almost anyone and anything can become pun pun when Mortiverse is only one and can't be easily born (or so I'd say from what I've read).
BillTheManiac 09-30-07, 03:44 PM	Let's forget about the preascension stuff. Killing preascension is cheating. A Mortiverse vs. 1st level kobold paladin duel isn't exactly a fair fight. On round X of the universe Pun-Pun achieves ascension, and leaves for the far realm. He makes himself wormtouched and creates a clone with obey the wormtouched. On round Y Mortiverse portals into Pun-Pun's universe, killing everything in it. Except Pun-Pun can use the Far Realms to escape time, go back in time, and bubble himself. Pun-Pun exists for eternity. The fight is a draw. Ways Pun-Pun might beat the Mortiverse: That cage spell. I have no idea if you can beat it. If you can, it's a pretty poorly designed spell. Diplomacy. Mortiverse is fundamentally a DM-controlled monster or plot device, and thus an NPC. Pun-Pun is fundamentally a broken character, and thus a PC. Pun-Pun, in his infinite wisdom, readies an action each round to make a rushed diplomacy check on each and every creature in the multiverse capable of killing him. Beating the tests, becoming Mortiverse. With infinite everything, shouldn't be too high. This means Pun-Pun has all of Mortiverse's powers, plus Manipulate Form. This one is definitely the cleanest.
Bauglir 09-30-07, 04:04 PM	By the way, how do the rules in the IH say the Cosmic Nullification thing works when two entities of infinite divine rank (or whatever would ordinarily determine it) would both affect one another? Most such abilities say that equally powerful entities don't affect each other, so I'd imagine Pun-Pun has all his abilities. Killing a random creature named Pun-Pun is technically completion of the challenge, but doesn't hold to the spirit of it. It didn't kill the creature referred to by the specific "Pun-Pun" of the thread title. Next. Sure, inside the Mortiverse's mind, it acquires the ability. So the hypothetical Mortiverse inside the Mortiverse's mind (an impossibility, by the way, as no creature can fully comprehend itself, not by any rules, but by simple information processing capacity, and so even in such a simulation it wouldn't be the Mortiverse encountering anything but a simplified version of the Mortiverse encountering a simplified Pun-Pun) gains the ability, but not the actual Mortiverse. The actual Mortiverse never encountered it, even if it thought of it. If I think of a fist-sized, self-sustaining fusion reaction following me around, does that mean I've encountered such a physical impossibility? Yes, that ability would work, if anything possessed it. Since nothing does, it doesn't exist, so the clause claiming that the Mortiverse has always encountered it never comes into effect. By the way, if Void Dragons just come into being spontaneously, why do they need eggs?
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 04:17 PM	I'm pretty sure the egg thing is just hypothetical and listed under possible adventure seeds for Void Dragons, but I haven't read my Bestiary in a while. Also, is there some reason that the Mortiverse can't destroy the Far Realm?
Bauglir 09-30-07, 05:21 PM	I would guess that the Far Realms are the medium in which universes exist. If they're destroyed, everything is, including Morty. And that's a draw, if anything. Though I'm no expert on planar cosmology according to the IH, so I could be wrong.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 05:28 PM	Yeah, it is really confusing since Morti is 18 universes himself. I can't remeber how the Far Realm works in the IH Kosmos. I really need to get my copy of the Bestiary back...
BillTheManiac 09-30-07, 06:49 PM	If all the multiverses put together were a speck of dust, the Far Realms would be an ocean.
Sagetim 09-30-07, 06:49 PM	You're wrong. Sorry, you're wrong. Pun-Pun is a work of skill, while Mortiverse is a work of DM fiat. He's not that good of a plot device, either. If your plot says "sorry, all your abilities don't work" it's not a game I'd want to play in. A cool plot would be: This world is a time bubble created by Pun-Pun to protect himself from Mortivorse indefinately - and it is starting to develop dangerous traits of the far realms! More later, have to go to fencing. completely off topic, but it's nice to see someone who fences on these boards. Saber? Epee? or Foil? Or is it historical with shinai? on topic: Pun Pun will probably win this fight. Mainly because his name is more fun to say. I have no proof to back up this claim.
BillTheManiac 09-30-07, 06:52 PM	completely off topic, but it's nice to see someone who fences on these boards. Saber? Epee? or Foil? Or is it historical with shinai? on topic: Pun Pun will probably win this fight. Mainly because his name is more fun to say. I have no proof to back up this claim. Foil. Oh, Pun-Pun ascends much, much faster then Mortiverse, because Mortiverse probably took millions of years to gain all those HD and templates.
CrimsonDeath 09-30-07, 07:30 PM	0 is a whole number, but it's not a whole day. It isn't even a day at all, it's the lack of a day. The smallest number of whole days it is possible to possess is one. Since 0 isn't a valid number of whole days, you round up to the next lowest valid number of whole days, which is 1. So... Mortiverse can encounter an ability that doesn't exist, but Pun-Pun can't undertake a process with a duration of a non-day? Riiiiight...
Sagetim 09-30-07, 07:31 PM	Foil. Oh, Pun-Pun ascends much, much faster then Mortiverse, because Mortiverse probably took millions of years to gain all those HD and templates. oooh, just thought of this...Pun Pun ascends like so. (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/workit) while mortiverse ascends like so (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD21J5SBMI) so while pun pun has a great time and dances his way to power in less time than a blink of an eye, the mortiverse takes a while...
Buugipopuu 09-30-07, 07:48 PM	Also, is there some reason that the Mortiverse can't destroy the Far Realm? The Mortiverse has already dominated every lower dimension by the very fact of its existence, including the Far Realm. y the way, how do the rules in the IH say the Cosmic Nullification thing works when two entities of infinite divine rank (or whatever would ordinarily determine it) would both affect one another? Most such abilities say that equally powerful entities don't affect each other, so I'd imagine Pun-Pun has all his abilities. Pun Pun's Divine Rank is only Infinity, which is less than the Mortiverse's, which Aleph-Aleph-0. Besides, Nullification works on creatures of higher Divine Rank. Killing a random creature named Pun-Pun is technically completion of the challenge, but doesn't hold to the spirit of it. It didn't kill the creature referred to by the specific "Pun-Pun" of the thread title. Next. Actually, it did. With every ability, it doesn't matter that the creature it has decided to be Pun-Pun is just some random creature, it's also the specific creature referred to by the thread. It can also be Queen Elizabeth the First, Space Jesus, Samuel Vimes, Bill Gates, a spade, the colour blue, and the concept of reticence. It doesn't matter that it doesn't have any of the properties of those things, because the prerequisite of things actually having to possess the properties of what they're defined to be in order to be what they are can be waived by the ability in question. Sure, inside the Mortiverse's mind, it acquires the ability. So the hypothetical Mortiverse inside the Mortiverse's mind (an impossibility, by the way, as no creature can fully comprehend itself, not by any rules, but by simple information processing capacity, and so even in such a simulation it wouldn't be the Mortiverse encountering anything but a simplified version of the Mortiverse encountering a simplified Pun-Pun) gains the ability, but not the actual Mortiverse. The actual Mortiverse never encountered it, even if it thought of it. If I think of a fist-sized, self-sustaining fusion reaction following me around, does that mean I've encountered such a physical impossibility? It only takes infinite computational capacity to create a perfect simulation of an infinitely intelligent being, as it's an infinitely complex system. Thus, an infinitely intelligent being can simulate an infinite number of infinitely intelligent beings at once with no more effort than simulating one. The Mortiverse, which has aleph-aleph-0 intelligence can trivially simulate a perfect copy of itself and the reality in which it resides, as that only requires aleph-aleph-0 computational capacity. Since the simulation in question is utterly perfect, the simulated game being run inside its mind isn't any less real than the one it exists in, as are any abilities encountered within it. Diplomacy. Mortiverse is fundamentally a DM-controlled monster or plot device, and thus an NPC. Pun-Pun is fundamentally a broken character, and thus a PC. Pun-Pun, in his infinite wisdom, readies an action each round to make a rushed diplomacy check on each and every creature in the multiverse capable of killing him. Beating the tests, becoming Mortiverse. With infinite everything, shouldn't be too high. This means Pun-Pun has all of Mortiverse's powers, plus Manipulate Form. This one is definitely the cleanest. This is easy to fix. The Mortiverse has more manifestations than there are Universes, so it can easily pop into every Universe simultaneously, and kill every being residing there by its mere presence, by permanently destroying all of their HD, and every object within those Universe. No creatures means nobody to talk to, which means no quests can be gone on, which means no being can possibly gain its power. The Mortiverse can then use its limitless power to create an environment in which there is no concept of conflict or combat of any kind, raise a creature there, and allow that creature to become Pun-Pun. The Mortiverse is thusly an OCP to the creature. To the creature, the concept of attempting to engage in any kind of conflict with another creature is as meaningful as "sdfiuhosdifhnurtbnndioohygvvvnvmtmtfidh" is to us. Without the inclination to fight back, it is trivially defeated by the Mortiverse. In my eyes pun pun wins as almost anyone and anything can become pun pun when Mortiverse is only one and can't be easily born (or so I'd say from what I've read). That's a weakness of Pun-Pun. Because any creature can become Pun-Pun, the Mortiverse can cultivate its own harmless Pun-Pun and kill it, after annihilating every creature, thus ensuring that there's only one Pun-Pun, the one that the Mortiverse creates and destroys. If all the multiverses put together were a speck of dust, the Far Realms would be an ocean. Not in the IH cosmology. The Far Realm is a lower dimension, while the Multiverse is an upper one. The Far Realm is entirely contained within the Multiverse. Oh, Pun-Pun ascends much, much faster then Mortiverse, because Mortiverse probably took millions of years to gain all those HD and templates. The Mortiverse is a High Lord. They don't ascend. Each one is the Universe (well, each one is actually multiple Universes, but that doesn't matter). The Time Lords, by their very nature, have to have existed (with their Time Lord powers) before any creatures are allowed to exist, as creatures need a Universe in which to be born in. Being an intrinsic part of reality is handy. So... Mortiverse can encounter an ability that doesn't exist, but Pun-Pun can't undertake a process with a duration of a non-day? The former is allowed by the rules, the latter is prohibited by them, so yes.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 07:51 PM	Will a victor ever be declared in this duel?
AlterFrom 09-30-07, 08:22 PM	Will a victor ever be declared in this duel? Not until someone intimately knowledgeable with Pun-Pun gets their hands on IH and begins to understand the completely new cosmology and ruleset. I mean, it's like me saying we're going to play a card game of my own invention. Trick is, I'm not going to tell you all the rules up front. Instead, you're going to keep playing as I periodically reveal rules as they arise, until such time as one of us wins. But it's not just me making up rules- you can make up rules too. Can you see how this can't end well? Until that time, reference Post 139 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13948928&postcount=139).
BillTheManiac 09-30-07, 08:37 PM	You can't win due to poor semantics in the OP, Buugipopuu. The OP surely meant, can this creature: [Pun-Pun's statblock] defeat this creature: [Mortiverse's statblock] Besides, in-game abilities cannot effect out-of-game things, like what defines Pun-Pun. Oh, the far realms is Realms. That's Aleph-Aleph-Aleph...(Aleph-Aleph_0 alephs)...Aleph_0 of them. And, I think IH fits with ordinal numbers better. I mean, Infinite strength is just "your Str increases by +w". Beautiful. Pun-Pun, with planar bubble and infinite actions per round, should achieve Xw^3, where X is the number of rounds since his ascension, because he has w actions per round= w bubbles, each containing w rounds of w actions each. How much can Mortiverse, acting 3/round, achieve?
Sagetim 09-30-07, 08:52 PM	You can't win due to poor semantics in the OP, Buugipopuu. The OP surely meant, can this creature: [Pun-Pun's statblock] defeat this creature: [Mortiverse's statblock] Besides, in-game abilities cannot effect out-of-game things, like what defines Pun-Pun. Oh, the far realms is Realms. That's Aleph-Aleph-Aleph...(Aleph-Aleph_0 alephs)...Aleph_0 of them. And, I think IH fits with ordinal numbers better. I mean, Infinite strength is just "your Str increases by +w". Beautiful. Pun-Pun, with planar bubble and infinite actions per round, should achieve Xw^3, where X is the number of rounds since his ascension, because he has w actions per round= w bubbles, each containing w rounds of w actions each. How much can Mortiverse, acting 3/round, achieve? um...actually I meant for you to debate it out like this. It's very fun for me to just read through this thread to see how people argue for pun pun or the mortiverse winning. :D
CrimsonDeath 09-30-07, 08:56 PM	Pun Pun's Divine Rank is only Infinity, which is less than the Mortiverse's, which Aleph-Aleph-0. Besides, Nullification works on creatures of higher Divine Rank. I thought it had already been established that there was an upper limit to divine rank, that the limit was finite, and that Morti was at it. The former is allowed by the rules, the latter is prohibited by them, so yes. I'm still not convinced that 0 days isn't an amount of time that can be measured in "whole days".
BillTheManiac 09-30-07, 09:26 PM	Clearly, due to Mortiverse's and Pun-Pun's abilities to rename creatures to Pun-Pun or Mortiverse and then destroy them, both win. Or maybe they both lose. I withdraw from this thread.
AlterFrom 09-30-07, 09:36 PM	Maybe it's time for a Second Opinion? Chuck? http://kscakes.com/LolCats/Uploads/Saved/when-i-kick-infinity-nobody-wins.jpg Well said Chuck.
Sagetim 09-30-07, 10:12 PM	I thought it had already been established that there was an upper limit to divine rank, that the limit was finite, and that Morti was at it. I'm still not convinced that 0 days isn't an amount of time that can be measured in "whole days". 0 days means that it takes less than a whole day. Therefore it IS a viable measurement number. Just because it took me 0 days to eat one meal doesn't mean I didn't eat a meal. Just because it would take a blacksmith with infinity ranks in craft less than one whole day to make anything doesn't mean that he can't do it.
CrimsonDeath 10-01-07, 03:45 AM	0 days means that it takes less than a whole day. Therefore it IS a viable measurement number. Just because it took me 0 days to eat one meal doesn't mean I didn't eat a meal. Just because it would take a blacksmith with infinity ranks in craft less than one whole day to make anything doesn't mean that he can't do it. What if it takes exactly zero days? Not 0.0000001 days. Just zero.
BillTheManiac 10-01-07, 07:21 AM	What if it takes exactly zero days? Not 0.0000001 days. Just zero. I'm not going to debate, I forget whose side this is on, but 0*24 hours=0 hours=0 minutes=0 seconds=0 rounds.
Buugipopuu 10-01-07, 07:57 AM	I mean, it's like me saying we're going to play a card game of my own invention. Trick is, I'm not going to tell you all the rules up front. Instead, you're going to keep playing as I periodically reveal rules as they arise, until such time as one of us wins. But it's not just me making up rules- you can make up rules too. Can you see how this can't end well? I've played that game before. It's called Mao. It's rather fun. Besides, in-game abilities cannot effect out-of-game things, like what defines Pun-Pun. Where does it say that? You'll note that Pun-Pun has already been defined as "any creature that uses Manipulate Form to gain infinite power", by some other poster. Oh, the far realms is Realms. That's Aleph-Aleph-Aleph...(Aleph-Aleph_0 alephs)...Aleph_0 of them. Obviously not true. The Far Realms are ruled by Limbus, who is a 301 HD First One. They can't be that big if they're presided over by a being of that stature. And, I think IH fits with ordinal numbers better. I mean, Infinite strength is just "your Str increases by +w". Beautiful. Pun-Pun, with planar bubble and infinite actions per round, should achieve Xw^3, where X is the number of rounds since his ascension, because he has w actions per round= w bubbles, each containing w rounds of w actions each. How much can Mortiverse, acting 3/round, achieve? I assume that that "w" is small omega. Xw^3 = w. w = aleph-0 If you really want to know, firstly, the Mortiverse doesn't gain 3 actions per round, it gains aleph-aleph-0, per manifestation, of which is has aleph-aleph-0 (which doesn't mean it can do any more stuff because aleph-aleph-0*aleph-aleph-0 = aleph-aleph-0, but it can be everywhere at once). Having every stackable ability aleph-aleph-0 times means Time Dilation, aleph-aleph-0 times. This is irrelevant, since its divine rank of aleph-aleph-0 means it has a +aleph-aleph-0 Divine bonus to all of its ability scores (and applies each ability score bonus twice to everything, but that doesn't make a difference). I thought it had already been established that there was an upper limit to divine rank, that the limit was finite, and that Morti was at it. You thought wrong. The Mortiverse is initially at Divine Rank 17,600, more than LOGOS, who has Divine Rank 14,400. There is no stated limit in the IH for Divine Rank, and the list of High Lord progression is open-ended. GOD has Divine Rank Infinity. I'm still not convinced that 0 days isn't an amount of time that can be measured in "whole days". The crux of the point is that it specifies "whole days", not "an integral number of days". The presence of the word "whole" is what makes the minimum number of days 1. You can't have a "whole" something if you don't have any of that thing to begin with.
Witch 10-01-07, 08:33 AM	The obvious point here is that neither can win, because in a universe where Pun-Pun exists, Mortiverse cannot exist, and vice versa. They both use mutually exclusive systems of divinity.
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-01-07, 08:47 AM	The obvious point here is that neither can win, because in a universe where Pun-Pun exists, Mortiverse cannot exist, and vice versa. They both use mutually exclusive systems of divinity. Halleluja! Someone here speaks sense! I've only been trying to get this point across for the last 6 pages now.
AlterFrom 10-01-07, 09:26 AM	The crux of the point is that it specifies "whole days", not "an integral number of days". The presence of the word "whole" is what makes the minimum number of days 1. You can't have a "whole" something if you don't have any of that thing to begin with. "Whole", as defined by dictionary.com: Whole: Mathematics Integral, or not fractional. I'm thinking 0 fits that definition. Halleluja! Someone here speaks sense! I've only been trying to get this point across for the last 6 pages now. Agreed. :D But that's not to say it isn't fun to argue over whose build is stupider.
rob_douglas 10-01-07, 11:59 AM	WHole numbers include 0: http://www.mathleague.com/help/wholenumbers/wholenumbers.htm I can't remember why we cared. I am with Witch on this - this thread proves that neither exists, because if either did, we all couldn't even debate it in the infinitesimally small time (relatively speaking) it would take for the collection of all multiverses to end. ROB
Johnny_Angel 10-01-07, 01:01 PM	Does it really matter? I mean, there's one being that can single handedly defeat both of them at the same time.
Buugipopuu 10-01-07, 01:21 PM	"Whole", as defined by dictionary.com: I'm thinking 0 fits that definition. Note that it said "whole days", not "whole number of days". The definition of "whole number", a technical term, is not relevant, as "whole" in the sentence is not referring to a number, but instead a day. The sense of "whole" meaning "integral" applies only to numbers, as you can't have an integral day, you can only have an integral number of days. From my Collins dictionary (more authoritative than dictionary.com): adj 1. containing all the component parts necessary to form a total; complete: a whole apple. Since 0 days does not contain the component parts necessary to form a total, on account of not containing any component parts at all, it is not whole, and so not a whole day. Does it really matter? I mean, there's one being that can single handedly defeat both of them at the same time. Given that both of them are of infinite power or greater, any being that could defeat one can also defeat them both. 2*infinity = infinity. You could deploy a million billion (or an infinite number, for that matter) infinitely powerful beings and not have a force any more powerful than one.
Tshern 10-01-07, 02:46 PM	Does it really matter? I mean, there's one being that can single handedly defeat both of them at the same time. My thoughts exactly, why bother when Chuck Norris is still around?
CrimsonDeath 10-01-07, 03:10 PM	You thought wrong. The Mortiverse is initially at Divine Rank 17,600, more than LOGOS, who has Divine Rank 14,400. There is no stated limit in the IH for Divine Rank, and the list of High Lord progression is open-ended. GOD has Divine Rank Infinity. Actually the mortiverse has the highest DvR possible. You can't get higher. So which is it?
BillTheManiac 10-01-07, 03:27 PM	I'm back in this thread. You have angered me by misusing set theory. I've played that game before. It's called Mao. It's rather fun. And exasperating. Like this debate. Where does it say that? You'll note that Pun-Pun has already been defined as "any creature that uses Manipulate Form to gain infinite power", by some other poster. I'll prove it through experimentation. I'm playing a D&D game - now I'm making Pun-Pun - OK I just ascended - now I give him the ability "Pun-Pun's character sheet is blue". Hey look! It's still white! Obviously not true. The Far Realms are ruled by Limbus, who is a 301 HD First One. They can't be that big if they're presided over by a being of that stature. That's why IH cosmology is stupid. The Far Realms by definition are outside. I assume that that "w" is small omega. Xw^3 = w. w = aleph-0 psly4mne>BillTheManiac>Buugipopuu in set theory knowledge. w=/= aleph_0, it's the difference between cardinal and ordinal numbers. If you really want to know, firstly, the Mortiverse doesn't gain 3 actions per round, it gains aleph-aleph-0, per manifestation, of which is has aleph-aleph-0 (which doesn't mean it can do any more stuff because aleph-aleph-0*aleph-aleph-0 = aleph-aleph-0, but it can be everywhere at once). Having every stackable ability aleph-aleph-0 times means Time Dilation, aleph-aleph-0 times. This is irrelevant, since its divine rank of aleph-aleph-0 means it has a +aleph-aleph-0 Divine bonus to all of its ability scores (and applies each ability score bonus twice to everything, but that doesn't make a difference). How does he get aleph_aleph_0 DvR? Pun-Pun can duplicate it, and faster, because he starts with aleph_0 actions/round. The crux of the point is that it specifies "whole days", not "an integral number of days". The presence of the word "whole" is what makes the minimum number of days 1. You can't have a "whole" something if you don't have any of that thing to begin with. If I have no apples, how many whole apples do I have? 0. Do I have no whole apples? Yes.
The_Mad_Linguist 10-01-07, 04:16 PM	Wait a second. We're thinking too complicated here. Pun-Pun has IRON HEART SURGE. With a roar of effort Pun-Pun removes Immortals Handbook accepted material.
archerpwr 10-01-07, 05:05 PM	Wait a second. We're thinking too complicated here. Pun-Pun has IRON HEART SURGE. With a roar of effort Pun-Pun removes Immortals Handbook accepted material. You sir, win.
AlterFrom 10-01-07, 06:00 PM	Wait a second. We're thinking too complicated here. Pun-Pun has IRON HEART SURGE. With a roar of effort Pun-Pun removes Immortals Handbook accepted material. You sir, win. +1 Also: Point 1 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics): Are we arguing it? Point 2: Buugipopuu, what makes your dictionary more authoritative than mine? I could understand if I had used wikipedia, but couldn't your print copy theoretically be worse than my e-copy, since your print copy could be out of date compared to my e-copy? (egads, we're I'm arguing whose dictionary is better :eek: ) Edit: Before someone goes on about IHS, WE AREN'T ****ING SERIOUS.
Bauglir 10-01-07, 06:22 PM	Yep, thread over. Pun-Pun Iron Heart Surges the Mortiverse's existence at the same time the Mortiverse Iron Heart Surges Pun-Pun's, resulting in a paradox that threatens to destroy reality until some intrepid characters work up the nerve to slap their DM for being so annoying. Also, I suggest picking a single brand of dictionary, at random, and using that for all future definitions for this debate. I desperately hope for the Redneck Dictionary.
BillTheManiac 10-01-07, 06:29 PM	Yep, thread over. Pun-Pun Iron Heart Surges the Mortiverse's existence at the same time the Mortiverse Iron Heart Surges Pun-Pun's, resulting in a paradox that threatens to destroy reality until some intrepid characters work up the nerve to slap their DM for being so annoying. Also, I suggest picking a single brand of dictionary, at random, and using that for all future definitions for this debate. I desperately hope for the Redneck Dictionary. Iron Heart Surge is standard actions. Whoever wins is the one who casts greater celerity first. Pun-Pun wisely uses his infinite turns to use greater celerity on the first Aleph 0 turns of creatures in the multiverse, of which one of the Mortiverse's should show up.
Buugipopuu 10-02-07, 10:05 AM	I'm back in this thread. You have angered me by misusing set theory. I knew that wouldn't take long. And exasperating. Like this debate. Who's exasperated? I'm having a whale of a time. I'll prove it through experimentation. I'm playing a D&D game - now I'm making Pun-Pun - OK I just ascended - now I give him the ability "Pun-Pun's character sheet is blue". Hey look! It's still white! I see you have never played Mao, or at least, have never played against players who were any good. If the rules say the sheet is blue, then it's blue, until you leave the game. That's why IH cosmology is stupid. The Far Realms by definition are outside. psly4mne>BillTheManiac>Buugipopuu in set theory knowledge. w=/= aleph_0, it's the difference between cardinal and ordinal numbers. Way to ignore the important bit there. How does he get aleph_aleph_0 DvR? Pun-Pun can duplicate it, and faster, because he starts with aleph_0 actions/round. I explained it earlier in the thread. Casting an Epic Spell to gain Divine Rank aleph-0 is only a DC aleph-0, and so castable with its infinite intelligence. It doesn't need to research this, because it can Alter Reality to generate the effect, and already knows of the existence of the spell because it knows every spell. This immediately grants aleph-0 actions per round, and only takes a free action. There's a handy feedback loop that generates aleph-1 clones of himself using Transcendental Presence (Multidimensional), which, if taken an infinite number of times, causes each clone to generate an infinite number of clones for every clone present. These clones can then participate in an epic ritual, resulting in a mitigation of -aleph-1 to the DC, allowing it to cast an Epic Spell that gives it Divine Rank aleph-1. Go back to step one and repeat aleph-0 times (takes no time at all, because while using this trick, the Mortiverse gains actions faster than it uses them). Pun-Pun can't replicate this trick because he would have to research the spell first, on account of him not knowing all spells. Mitigating it to 0DC doesn't work, because there's a HD limit on how much you can mitigate, so you can only do that when you've got infinity HD. There's also the issue that magic other than the Mortiverse's doesn't function within its Divine Realm, which is everywhere. It also controls all magic within one dimension (changeable at will, doesn't take an action, so it can track Pun-Pun with it, and always control all magic within the dimension Pun-Pun resides). On top of that, its aura, which extends across the entire Universe, radiates a Dead Magic zone, preventing all magic and supernatural abilities except those the Mortiverse chooses to allow to function. If I have no apples, how many whole apples do I have? 0. Do I have no whole apples? Yes. You don't have 0 whole apples, because that's a meaningless concept. Iron Heart Surge is standard actions. Whoever wins is the one who casts greater celerity first. Pun-Pun wisely uses his infinite turns to use greater celerity on the first Aleph 0 turns of creatures in the multiverse, of which one of the Mortiverse's should show up. Pun-Pun isn't going to be casting Greater Celerity, on account of it not being able to cast magic (or psionics, for that matter).
Infinitive 10-02-07, 11:36 AM	I've really been trying to resist, but... it's time for an image macro. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a333/Flashfyre5/Dr.Venture.jpg
Senevri 10-02-07, 11:59 AM	It doesn't need to research this, because it can Alter Reality to generate the effect, ...and you presume PP doesn't have Alter Reality because...?
YOU_ARE_WRONG 10-02-07, 12:21 PM	I don't frequent these boards. I don't care to debate the minutia of which nigh-omnipotent being is more nigh-omnipotent. I don't even play D&D all that much. But this colossal display of idiocy: You don't have 0 whole apples, because that's a meaningless concept. has forced me to respond in the name of all that is good and logical in the universe. If B ⊂ A then (B ∩ C) ⊂ (A ∩ C). P.S. If you try to argue that "whole apples" is not a subset of "apples", I shall reach through the Internet and punch you in the face with a fury that only an irked geek can unleash. P.P.S. YOU ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-02-07, 12:23 PM	I don't frequent these boards. I don't care to debate the minutia of which nigh-omnipotent being is more nigh-omnipotent. I don't even play D&D all that much. But this colossal display of idiocy: has forced me to respond in the name of all that is good and logical in the universe. If B ⊂ A then (B ∩ C) ⊂ (A ∩ C). P.S. If you try to argue that "whole apples" is not a subset of "apples", I shall reach through the Internet and punch you in the face with a fury that only an irked geek can unleash. P.P.S. YOU ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD. That is one angry geek.:P
SokenzanMarauder 10-02-07, 12:34 PM	That is one angry geek.:P Nice username too. :D -Gene
BillTheManiac 10-02-07, 05:13 PM	Who's exasperated? I'm having a whale of a time. Me. I see you have never played Mao, or at least, have never played against players who were any good. If the rules say the sheet is blue, then it's blue, until you leave the game. I guess you can go discuss that on the Mao forums, in their Ace of Spades vs. King of Hearts thread. This is D&D. Way to ignore the important bit there. Cardinal and ordinal numbers work differently. 2^w=w. I explained it earlier in the thread. Casting an Epic Spell to gain Divine Rank aleph-0 is only a DC aleph-0, and so castable with its infinite intelligence. It doesn't need to research this, because it can Alter Reality to generate the effect, and already knows of the existence of the spell because it knows every spell. This immediately grants aleph-0 actions per round, and only takes a free action. There's a handy feedback loop that generates aleph-1 clones of himself using Transcendental Presence (Multidimensional), which, if taken an infinite number of times, causes each clone to generate an infinite number of clones for every clone present. These clones can then participate in an epic ritual, resulting in a mitigation of -aleph-1 to the DC, allowing it to cast an Epic Spell that gives it Divine Rank aleph-1. Go back to step one and repeat aleph-0 times (takes no time at all, because while using this trick, the Mortiverse gains actions faster than it uses them). Pun-Pun can't replicate this trick because he would have to research the spell first, on account of him not knowing all spells. Mitigating it to 0DC doesn't work, because there's a HD limit on how much you can mitigate, so you can only do that when you've got infinity HD. Which Pun-Pun has. Woot awaken! There's also the issue that magic other than the Mortiverse's doesn't function within its Divine Realm, which is everywhere. It also controls all magic within one dimension (changeable at will, doesn't take an action, so it can track Pun-Pun with it, and always control all magic within the dimension Pun-Pun resides). On top of that, its aura, which extends across the entire Universe, radiates a Dead Magic zone, preventing all magic and supernatural abilities except those the Mortiverse chooses to allow to function. Because of that trick, so can Pun-Pun! You don't have 0 whole apples, because that's a meaningless concept. I'd like to point out that 24-hour time stop is trivial. Pun-Pun isn't going to be casting Greater Celerity, on account of it not being able to cast magic (or psionics, for that matter). Luckily Mortiverse can't either. Thanks for telling me your super special secret trick.
Mighty_Draco 10-02-07, 08:04 PM	http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/images/common/entry_banner.jpg About time I say my part on this whole thing. I've only read about half of this thread but I feel obligated to ask, Why oh why has no one even brought into question using infinity and aleph as acceptable values for stats. A random third party does not seem very authoritative to me. I think it's implied that modifiers are suppose to be integers. Infinity is more of a concept then an applicable value. Second, Pun Pun can "give an ability" to himself. I don't see how he can not win:confused: Mortiverse can write as many 0's as he wants, but it pales in comparison to Pun Pun's "Dirty Cheater Pun Pun wins all initiative rolls, regardless of his opponents roll. He also is immune to damage and death and any effect he doesn't want to be affected by. He can also remove any creature from having existed as a free action." Mortiverse can write 0's until it passes out, but it's not going to make it win against Pun Pun.
Bauglir 10-02-07, 08:08 PM	Yeah, that's the gist of it. Though, to make it slightly more heavy-handed, let's make it a "no action", like making a Knowledge check.
RadicalTaoist 10-02-07, 10:46 PM	http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/images/common/entry_banner.jpg That deserves a lolcat. http://i0005.photobucket.com/albums/0005/icanhascheezburger/2007/7/4/16/128280660713281250achallengera.jpg
BillTheManiac 10-03-07, 07:02 AM	http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/images/common/entry_banner.jpg About time I say my part on this whole thing. I've only read about half of this thread but I feel obligated to ask, Why oh why has no one even brought into question using infinity and aleph as acceptable values for stats. A random third party does not seem very authoritative to me. I think it's implied that modifiers are suppose to be integers. Infinity is more of a concept then an applicable value. Second, Pun Pun can "give an ability" to himself. I don't see how he can not win:confused: Mortiverse can write as many 0's as he wants, but it pales in comparison to Pun Pun's "Dirty Cheater Pun Pun wins all initiative rolls, regardless of his opponents roll. He also is immune to damage and death and any effect he doesn't want to be affected by. He can also remove any creature from having existed as a free action." Mortiverse can write 0's until it passes out, but it's not going to make it win against Pun Pun. If I increase my Str 1000000 times, my Str will be >1000000. If I increase it infinity times, which I know how to do, my strength will be >infinity.
Buugipopuu 10-03-07, 08:26 AM	I don't frequent these boards. I don't care to debate the minutia of which nigh-omnipotent being is more nigh-omnipotent. Never use the term "nigh-omnipotent". It is as meaningful as "near-infinite". Either something is omnipotent, or it is not. There's no middle ground. has forced me to respond in the name of all that is good and logical in the universe. If B ? A then (B ? C) ? (A ? C). How is this relevant? In this case, B intersect C is the empty set, if your entirely context-less expression is to be interpreted in the most obvious way. P.P.S. YOU ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD. Caps lock is cruise control for cool. ...and you presume PP doesn't have Alter Reality because...? It doesn't matter. Without knowledge of the spell's existence, it can't replicate its effects. I guess you can go discuss that on the Mao forums, in their Ace of Spades vs. King of Hearts thread. This is D&D. That's impossible. The first rule of Mao is that you can't discuss any rules except this one. I also challenge you to find a single statement in any official material that says no rule of D&D can ever affect the real world. Cardinal and ordinal numbers work differently. 2^w=w. And this is proof that Aw^3 > w because? Which Pun-Pun has. Woot awaken! No. He has an arbitrarily large number of HD, which isn't enough. I'd like to point out that 24-hour time stop is trivial. But makes no difference. Epic spell research says it takes days, not "days' worth of actions", so getting extra actions doesn't help at all. Luckily Mortiverse can't either. Thanks for telling me your super special secret trick. Which was so secret I had already mentioned it in the thread earlier. But Pun-Pun obviously can't do it, on account of it not being able to cast any magic, because the Mortiverse already prevents magic functioning anywhere due to the very fact of its existence. Pun-Pun also isn't aware of the spell's existence, due to it not knowing every spell. Then there's also the problem that the Mortiverse's Dead Zone is preventing Pun-Pun from using Manipulate Form to grant himself any abilities except the bare minimum of non-threatening ones in order to make the creature in question qualify as Pun-Pun. "Dirty Cheater Pun Pun wins all initiative rolls, regardless of his opponents roll. He also is immune to damage and death and any effect he doesn't want to be affected by. He can also remove any creature from having existed as a free action." Mortiverse can write 0's until it passes out, but it's not going to make it win against Pun Pun. The same interpretation that allows Pun-Pun to give itself any ability gives the Mortiverse every ability at any point in time. The following is still an ability: Greater Omniability As Omniability. The Mortiverse is considered to have encountered this ability for the purposes or Replicate, regardless of any logical argument regarding the nonexistence of this ability or other factor that would render this impossible. If Pun-Pun makes an "I Win." ability, he finds that he's already lost, because the Mortiverse already used a better version of that ability. That's why it's unwise to go down that route.
AlterFrom 10-03-07, 08:33 AM	Which was so secret I had already mentioned it in the thread earlier. But Pun-Pun obviously can't do it, on account of it not being able to cast any magic, because the Mortiverse already prevents magic functioning anywhere due to the very fact of its existence. Pun-Pun also isn't aware of the spell's existence, due to it not knowing every spell. Then there's also the problem that the Mortiverse's Dead Zone is preventing Pun-Pun from using Manipulate Form to grant himself any abilities except the bare minimum of non-threatening ones in order to make the creature in question qualify as Pun-Pun. So then what's the "bare minimum abilities to make the creature qualify as Pun-Pun"?
EjoThims 10-03-07, 09:14 AM	It doesn't matter. Without knowledge of the spell's existence, it can't replicate its effects. Good thing Pun-Pun has an infinite Knowledge check in all fields (which takes no action), and therefor knows every piece of information ever. Because the Knowledge skill is fun like that. The same interpretation that allows Pun-Pun to give itself any ability gives the Mortiverse every ability at any point in time. The following is still an ability: Except that the Mortiverse has to encounter any ability. Pun-Pun can simply have any ability, regardless of it's prior or future existence. Manipulate Form is the far more open-ended mechanic, even with the backwards time logic you use.
Buugipopuu 10-03-07, 01:51 PM	So then what's the "bare minimum abilities to make the creature qualify as Pun-Pun"? Manipulate form, and some selection of powerful game breaking abilities that don't actually render Pun-Pun immune to having all of its HD destroyed the moment the Mortiverse enters the Universe. Good thing Pun-Pun has an infinite Knowledge check in all fields (which takes no action), and therefor knows every piece of information ever. Because the Knowledge skill is fun like that. It's spelt "therefore". The Knowledge DC for knowing about a spell that grants DvR Infinity would be a higher order of infinity than Pun-Pun's stats. There are more possible epic spells than there are real numbers, while the omniscifier trick only grants intelligence equal to the cardinality of the natural numbers. Except that the Mortiverse has to encounter any ability. Pun-Pun can simply have any ability, regardless of it's prior or future existence. Manipulate Form is the far more open-ended mechanic, even with the backwards time logic you use. Having to encounter the ability is no restriction at all, since one can conceive a version of the ability that has a statement saying that it already counts as encountered by the Mortiverse. There's no restriction on self-referential abilities.
SokenzanMarauder 10-03-07, 01:59 PM	It's spelt "therefore". Uh-oh! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/therefor) It annoys me when others insult spelling simply to annoy someone they're arguing with. -Gene
Buugipopuu 10-03-07, 02:27 PM	Uh-oh! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/therefor) It annoys me when others insult spelling simply to annoy someone they're arguing with. "Therefor" means "for that", which doesn't make any sense in context. "Therefore" means "as a consequence of", which does. Therefore, it is spelt "therefore". Even your dictionary.com link says that. I find it amusing when someone tries to defend a spelling error on the grounds that pointing it out was mean.
PhaedrusXY 10-03-07, 02:32 PM	Can I nominate this for the stupidest thread EVAR?
SokenzanMarauder 10-03-07, 03:17 PM	Can I nominate this for the stupidest thread EVAR? Got my vote. "Therefor" means "for that", which doesn't make any sense in context. "Therefore" means "as a consequence of", which does. Therefore, it is spelt "therefore". Even your dictionary.com link says that. I find it amusing when someone tries to defend a spelling error on the grounds that pointing it out was mean.I wasn't arguing context. From your post it appears that you're saying that it cannot be spelt therefor. Try to be a bit clearer next time you're going to comment on someone's spelling. -Gene
Mighty_Draco 10-03-07, 03:31 PM	If I increase my Str 1000000 times, my Str will be >1000000. If I increase it infinity times, which I know how to do, my strength will be >infinity. Enlighten me as to how you can do something infinity amount of times If Pun-Pun makes an "I Win." ability, he finds that he's already lost, because the Mortiverse already used a better version of that ability. That's why it's unwise to go down that route. I'm swimming blind here, what exactly does his ability say? Telling me it works like another ability I don't know doesn't help much. Got my vote. Mine too, but the debate continues anyways!:fight!:
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-03-07, 04:25 PM	Something tells me that this thread will outlive Pun Pun and the Mortiverse combined
Callix 10-03-07, 05:27 PM	Enlighten me as to how you can do something infinity amount of times Pun-Pun can gain the Shambling Mound's Electricity Immunity ability, which increases his constitution whenever he would normally take electric damage. He can also establish the Fate Link triangle using three random people, with the Delay Death SLA on all of them. He sets up a Fate Link between himself and one of the others, then deals electric damage to any of them. The triangle produces an infinite number of incidences of electricity damage instantaneously, which increases Pun-Pun's Constitution an infinite number of times. He then uses the Void Release ability to transfer this infinite score to all his other stats. I'm swimming blind here, what exactly does his ability say? Telling me it works like another ability I don't know doesn't help much. I Win (Ex) Pun-Pun automatically succeeds at everything. That's just an example. Manipulate Form explicitly allows you to create new abilities. The Knowledge DC for knowing about a spell that grants DvR Infinity would be a higher order of infinity than Pun-Pun's stats. There are more possible epic spells than there are real numbers, while the omniscifier trick only grants intelligence equal to the cardinality of the natural numbers. The Knowledge DC of each individual epic spell, however, cannot exceed Aleph-Null. For a DC Aleph-Null spell, it is precisely Aleph-Null, but since this is Pun-Pun's result, he succeeds. Thus, Pun-Pun autosucceeds on any Knowledge check to know anything, and since no action is required to take a knowledge check, he can take and autosucceed at all possible knowlledge checks in precisely no time. He doesn't beat an aleph-aleph-null DC; he beats a finite (or Aleph-Null) DC aleph-aleph-null times, which takes infinite time out-of-game, but no time in-game.
Mighty_Draco 10-03-07, 05:53 PM	Pun-Pun can gain the Shambling Mound's Electricity Immunity ability, which increases his constitution whenever he would normally take electric damage. He can also establish the Fate Link triangle using three random people, with the Delay Death SLA on all of them. He sets up a Fate Link between himself and one of the others, then deals electric damage to any of them. The triangle produces an infinite number of incidences of electricity damage instantaneously, which increases Pun-Pun's Constitution an infinite number of times. He then uses the Void Release ability to transfer this infinite score to all his other stats. I Win (Ex) Pun-Pun automatically succeeds at everything. That's just an example. Manipulate Form explicitly allows you to create new abilities. The Knowledge DC of each individual epic spell, however, cannot exceed Aleph-Null. For a DC Aleph-Null spell, it is precisely Aleph-Null, but since this is Pun-Pun's result, he succeeds. Thus, Pun-Pun autosucceeds on any Knowledge check to know anything, and since no action is required to take a knowledge check, he can take and autosucceed at all possible knowlledge checks in precisely no time. He doesn't beat an aleph-aleph-null DC; he beats a finite (or Aleph-Null) DC aleph-aleph-null times, which takes infinite time out-of-game, but no time in-game. So you're saying they both get to make up abilities? Well, then why are people arguing over stupid things like how high his scores are? It's not even important. It's just a shouting match over who makes better abilities. I think I'm done with this thread.... :bored: :thumbsdow
Brian_Boitano 10-03-07, 07:40 PM	The Mortiverse is so dense it would collapse in on itself forming a massive multidimensional black hole, thus destroying the entire existence of everything, excluding a Pun Pun who is safe and sound on a plane of white nothingness looking at hentai through the aged eyes of a twenty five year old software developer.
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-03-07, 07:45 PM	First of all, the Mortiverse is a massive multidimensional black hole, and second,...............:eek: :confused: :hides: :mymy: :twitch: :thinks: :gah: :mymy: :mymy: :mymy: :mymy:............ what?!?!?
BillTheManiac 10-04-07, 07:08 AM	The Mortiverse is so dense it would collapse in on itself forming a massive multidimensional black hole, thus destroying the entire existence of everything, excluding a Pun Pun who is safe and sound on a plane of white nothingness looking at hentai through the aged eyes of a twenty five year old software developer. oooh! ooh! what's the gravitational force of such a black hole? Please pretty please let it be aleph 1*earth's gravity? And this is proof that Aw^3 > w because? It's not. However, this is. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_numbers) No. He has an arbitrarily large number of HD, which isn't enough. No, he has infinite HD. 1 gain per few rounds*infinity rounds=infinite HD. But makes no difference. Epic spell research says it takes days, not "days' worth of actions", so getting extra actions doesn't help at all. Alright then, divine realms+time traits=days of time in rounds. Which was so secret I had already mentioned it in the thread earlier. But Pun-Pun obviously can't do it, on account of it not being able to cast any magic, because the Mortiverse already prevents magic functioning anywhere due to the very fact of its existence. Pun-Pun also isn't aware of the spell's existence, due to it not knowing every spell. Then there's also the problem that the Mortiverse's Dead Zone is preventing Pun-Pun from using Manipulate Form to grant himself any abilities except the bare minimum of non-threatening ones in order to make the creature in question qualify as Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun was there in his multiverse before Mortiverse. A few rounds after recieving a LE Candle of Invocation, he gains omega/Aleph_null actions, ascending. The same interpretation that allows Pun-Pun to give itself any ability gives the Mortiverse every ability at any point in time. The following is still an ability: Greater Omniability As Omniability. The Mortiverse is considered to have encountered this ability for the purposes or Replicate, regardless of any logical argument regarding the nonexistence of this ability or other factor that would render this impossible. If Pun-Pun makes an "I Win." ability, he finds that he's already lost, because the Mortiverse already used a better version of that ability. That's why it's unwise to go down that route. They can all duplicate each other's powers. This does not bode well for sanity. Enlighten me as to how you can do something infinity amount of times First you do it once, then you do it again,.... Having to encounter the ability is no restriction at all, since one can conceive a version of the ability that has a statement saying that it already counts as encountered by the Mortiverse. There's no restriction on self-referential abilities. Text of an ability only applies when a creature has it. Morty doesn't have it until he's encountered it, and he hasn't encountered it until he has it. Therefore he's never encountered it or had it.
EjoThims 10-04-07, 07:38 AM	Manipulate form, and some selection of powerful game breaking abilities that don't actually render Pun-Pun immune to having all of its HD destroyed the moment the Mortiverse enters the Universe. Except that Pun-Pun does have all of Morti's own abilities that specifically render it immune to all it's own effects. It's spelt "therefore". Bcuz koorecten a tippoo m@k3z ur argoomend tuffrr... lol. Seriously... It does. Having to encounter the ability is no restriction at all, since one can conceive a version of the ability that has a statement saying that it already counts as encountered by the Mortiverse. There's no restriction on self-referential abilities. So your argument for the fact that Morti can acquire new, unwritten abilities relies on him having a new, unwritten ablity? That does, indeed, seem to be a weaker stance than Manipulate Form's... Which is 'I have new, unwritten abilities' because this ability that I have says I can.
Buugipopuu 10-04-07, 08:42 AM	The Knowledge DC of each individual epic spell, however, cannot exceed Aleph-Null. For a DC Aleph-Null spell, it is precisely Aleph-Null, but since this is Pun-Pun's result, he succeeds. Thus, Pun-Pun autosucceeds on any Knowledge check to know anything, and since no action is required to take a knowledge check, he can take and autosucceed at all possible knowlledge checks in precisely no time. He doesn't beat an aleph-aleph-null DC; he beats a finite (or Aleph-Null) DC aleph-aleph-null times, which takes infinite time out-of-game, but no time in-game. First: You've got your aleph numbers mixed up. There are aleph-1 possible Epic Spells of DC aleph-0 or lower. Second: He only automatically succeeds on any knowledge check of DC aleph-0 or less, not any knowledge check. Being able to take a knowledge check with no action just means you can do aleph-0 of them in any finite time interval. You need to be considerably faster to be able to take aleph-1 of them. Thus there is no way Pun-Pun will make the knowledge check in a finite amount of time, because he can't sort through his own knowledge fast enough. Knowing which of the aleph-1 possible DC aleph-0 epic spells is the one needed is a DC aleph-1 Knowledge check, because there are that many to search through (remember that for any useful spell effect, there are infinitely more which replicate the effect but have a sequence of mitigating factors so retarded as to make the spell useless) which Pun-Pun can't make. No, he has infinite HD. 1 gain per few rounds*infinity rounds=infinite HD. Proof that there are actually infinity rounds there, and not just an arbitrarily large number? Alright then, divine realms+time traits=days of time in rounds. Pun-Pun doesn't have a Divine Realm, because everywhere is the Mortiverse's Divine Realm. Pun-Pun was there in his multiverse before Mortiverse. A few rounds after recieving a LE Candle of Invocation, he gains omega/Aleph_null actions, ascending. The Mortiverse was necessarily there first, as you can't have a multiverse without Time Lords, and the Mortiverse's existence precludes the existence of any other Time Lords. Text of an ability only applies when a creature has it. Morty doesn't have it until he's encountered it, and he hasn't encountered it until he has it. Therefore he's never encountered it or had it. What's your reasoning that the text of an ability only applies when a creature has it? Going by the same reasoning, every feat not on the PHB's fighter bonus feat list which says "A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats" cannot, in fact, be selected as a fighter bonus feat, because the fighter only gains the ability to select it as a fighter bonus feat once he already has it. This sets a clear precedent for the text of abilities being able to apply when no creature has it. Except that Pun-Pun does have all of Morti's own abilities that specifically render it immune to all it's own effects. "It's" == it is. It's not a hard rule to remember. How many times will people get that wrong? Which abilities are these? How does he have those abilities when the Mortiverse is vetoing his use of Manipulate Form? Anyway, having every Portfolio means you have every type of immunity piercing power, meaning no immunities are effective against the Mortiverse's attacks. So your argument for the fact that Morti can acquire new, unwritten abilities relies on him having a new, unwritten ablity? That does, indeed, seem to be a weaker stance than Manipulate Form's... Which is 'I have new, unwritten abilities' because this ability that I have says I can. No, it relies on the possibility of such an ability to be written, which is a certainty.
Bauglir 10-04-07, 10:13 AM	Since this argument has become pointless enough that one side is now criticizing the grammar of the other side (which is almost as bad for health as comparing something to Nazis), I felt I'd contribute. Proof that there are actually infinity rounds there, and not just an arbitrarily large number? You really should use complete sentences. A lack of proper sentence structure really makes you look like you were trying to save time by violating grammar rules because the final result was easily understandable. That's even worse than doing it by accident or through ignorance.
Caros 10-04-07, 11:56 AM	That's impossible. The first rule of Mao is that you can't discuss any rules except this one. I also challenge you to find a single statement in any official material that says no rule of D&D can ever affect the real world. Now, I've pretty much been lurking, knowing enough that I'm out of my league in higher mathamatics (Though I follow the part of this arguement that makes sense!) I think Buugipopuu should calm down for starters, anytime I see someone comment on spelling and grammer, I know the arguement, or at least that paticular participant is either getting frustrated, or running out of ideas. Attacking people, even in such a mundane way shows very little tact. Secondly, The above quote. Blowing up a tree gives me five levels. Why? Because there is no rule in D&D that doesn't say it doesn't. In fact, my level one fighter can fly by sheer force of his internal ki, throw energy blasts that destroy planets, and cause my hair to stand up golden on end. Oh, and I can destroy the Mortiverse because my character is inherently immune to all of his abilities, or any attempt at keeping him from coming into existance, and kills the Mortiverse permanently, in all of its incarnations the moment he decides to. And while I'm at it, you get slapped upside the head by an invisibile force since my character adds "Buu gets slapped by an invisible force" to his character sheet. I hope you can see where I am going with this. Common sense. I know common sense isn't, but without it you don't have a game =)
BillTheManiac 10-04-07, 12:19 PM	First: You've got your aleph numbers mixed up. There are aleph-1 possible Epic Spells of DC aleph-0 or lower. Second: He only automatically succeeds on any knowledge check of DC aleph-0 or less, not any knowledge check. Being able to take a knowledge check with no action just means you can do aleph-0 of them in any finite time interval. You need to be considerably faster to be able to take aleph-1 of them. Thus there is no way Pun-Pun will make the knowledge check in a finite amount of time, because he can't sort through his own knowledge fast enough. Knowing which of the aleph-1 possible DC aleph-0 epic spells is the one needed is a DC aleph-1 Knowledge check, because there are that many to search through (remember that for any useful spell effect, there are infinitely more which replicate the effect but have a sequence of mitigating factors so retarded as to make the spell useless) which Pun-Pun can't make. I disagree on their being aleph 1. There is only 1 (all positive factors to aleph 0), combined with mitigating factors. Because there are a finite number of mitigating factors, and each factor has only aleph null options, there are only aleph null spells. Proof that there are actually infinity rounds there, and not just an arbitrarily large number? Proof that there aren't? The rules have no restriction on how many actions you can take on a turn, beyond the ones Pun-Pun bypasses. Pun-Pun doesn't have a Divine Realm, because everywhere is the Mortiverse's Divine Realm. And everywhere is Pun-Pun's as well. The Mortiverse was necessarily there first, as you can't have a multiverse without Time Lords, and the Mortiverse's existence precludes the existence of any other Time Lords. What's your reasoning that the text of an ability only applies when a creature has it? Going by the same reasoning, every feat not on the PHB's fighter bonus feat list which says "A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats" cannot, in fact, be selected as a fighter bonus feat, because the fighter only gains the ability to select it as a fighter bonus feat once he already has it. This sets a clear precedent for the text of abilities being able to apply when no creature has it. Feats are different from abilities. Feats grant abilities, but are not in themselves abilities. Feats have a mechanism for gaining them, but abilities do not. Mortiverse does not have the power to gain every feat he has encountered, but he does have the power to gain any ability he has encountered. Besides, a fighter being able to take something isn't a game state. It's an option. [QUOET"It's" == it is. It's not a hard rule to remember. How many times will people get that wrong? Which abilities are these? How does he have those abilities when the Mortiverse is vetoing his use of Manipulate Form?[/QUOTE] Pun-Pun was around in his multiverse before Mortiverse. The time lord was Agenericpassivedungeonmaster. Otherwise he would not be Pun-Pun, because he has not achieved ascension. Anyway, having every Portfolio means you have every type of immunity piercing power, meaning no immunities are effective against the Mortiverse's attacks. Pun-Pun has all portfolio powers too. And Perfect Initiative, and Infinite Dexterity, and infinite dexterity underneath of that, while mortiverse only has finite underneath that. No, it relies on the possibility of such an ability to be written, which is a certainty.
AlterFrom 10-04-07, 05:39 PM	Since this argument has become pointless enough that one side is now criticizing the grammar of the other side (which is almost as bad for health as comparing something to Nazis), I felt I'd contribute. You really should use complete sentences. A lack of proper sentence structure really makes you look like you were trying to save time by violating grammar rules because the final result was easily understandable. That's even worse than doing it by accident or through ignorance. REDUCTIO AD HITLERUM! HITLER! (Godwin's Law Counter reset to 0. Continue thread.)
Brian_Boitano 10-04-07, 06:04 PM	Where do PunPun and Morti buy their clothes from?
EjoThims 10-04-07, 06:28 PM	"It's" == it is. It's not a hard rule to remember. How many times will people get that wrong? Until you realise that pointing out my typos or grammer mistakes doesnt do anything for you're argument. How does he have those abilities when the Mortiverse is vetoing his use of Manipulate Form? Anyway, having every Portfolio means you have every type of immunity piercing power, meaning no immunities are effective against the Mortiverse's attacks. Firstly, because if Maniplate Form is not available, you are not defeating Pun-Pun. To be defeating Pun-Pun, you ahve to fight him post-ascension. Once you do, he already has every beneficial anything in the game. No, it relies on the possibility of such an ability to be written, which is a certainty. No, it relies on the possibility of eventually encountering such an ability, which is a very poor assumption to make.
SokenzanMarauder 10-04-07, 08:12 PM	Until you realise that pointing out my typos or grammer mistakes doesnt do anything for you're argument.He's only doing it because it's irritating you. -Gene
EjoThims 10-04-07, 08:17 PM	He's only doing it because it's irritating you. -Gene Its reely knot. :D
SokenzanMarauder 10-04-07, 08:18 PM	Its reely knot. :D Allow me to rephrase. He's only doing it because you reply to it. :P -Gene
AlterFrom 10-04-07, 08:19 PM	Allow me to rephrase. He's only doing it because you reply to it. :P -Gene You mean like a troll? :confused: I hear they have regen...
SokenzanMarauder 10-04-07, 08:22 PM	You mean like a troll? :confused: I hear they have regen... But this one doesn't fear the flames... -Gene
EjoThims 10-04-07, 08:25 PM	He's half-red dragon too? Ouch.
RadicalTaoist 10-04-07, 11:21 PM	Where do PunPun and Morti buy their clothes from? GAP in the bridge of logic connecting time and space
Buugipopuu 10-05-07, 01:44 PM	You really should use complete sentences. A lack of proper sentence structure really makes you look like you were trying to save time by violating grammar rules because the final result was easily understandable. That's even worse than doing it by accident or through ignorance. "Proof?" is a complete sentence. Not one acceptable in formal writing, but a sentence nonetheless. Mixing up "its" and "it's" isn't informal; it's outright wrong. If I were to pick people up on style issues as well as errors, as you just did, I'd hit the character limit of the forum software. You shouldn't use "really" in consecutive sentences, for example. It's redundant. I disagree on their being aleph 1. There is only 1 (all positive factors to aleph 0), combined with mitigating factors. Because there are a finite number of mitigating factors, and each factor has only aleph null options, there are only aleph null spells. You meant "there", along with "its"/"it's" and "you're"/"your", that's a mistake that nobody should ever make. You're also wrong. Pair up all the non-inter-referential spells with the natural numbers. You will find that there are as many as there are natural numbers. Then read the text of Ward and Transform. Both allow a spell to refer to another epic spell. Each non-inter-referential spell can have versions made of it which refer to any number of other spells. Number each inter-referential spell as such: n + m/o, where n is the number of the base spell, m is the number of the spell being referred to, and o is a power of 10 larger than m but smaller than 10m. This puts a lot more spells between every non-inter-referential spell. But this creates a lot more spells, which can be referred to (as a spell can refer to more than one spell, and can refer to spells which themselves refer to other spells), allowing each interval between singularly inter-referential spells to be filled with more spells. Thus, between any two numbered spells, there are always more spells. This means that there are at least as many spells as there are subsets of the set of natural numbers, which happen to be as numerous as the real numbers, which means there are at least aleph-1. There are possibly even more spells than this, because spells can refer to "specific individuals", so there have to be more spells than there are possible specific individuals, and combinations of multiple specific individuals. Proof that there aren't? The rules have no restriction on how many actions you can take on a turn, beyond the ones Pun-Pun bypasses. There merely being no upper limit to the number of actions one can take in a turn does not mean that one has an infinite number. There's no upper limit to the size a number you can write down in decimal notation, but you can't write down an infinite number in decimal notation. The same thing applies here. You can't perform an infinite number of actions if each one requires player input, only if through some triggering condition, they are all performed automatically. And everywhere is Pun-Pun's as well. No it isn't. The Mortiverse's divine realm is everywhere because it has dominated every dimension. Pun-Pun's is only infinite in size. It doesn't cross dimensional boundries. Feats are different from abilities. Feats grant abilities, but are not in themselves abilities. Feats have a mechanism for gaining them, but abilities do not. Mortiverse does not have the power to gain every feat he has encountered, but he does have the power to gain any ability he has encountered. Besides, a fighter being able to take something isn't a game state. It's an option. Feats are abilities, so this is totally wrong. They're explicitly referred to in the IH as "Mortal Abilities". Pun-Pun was around in his multiverse before Mortiverse. The time lord was Agenericpassivedungeonmaster. Otherwise he would not be Pun-Pun, because he has not achieved ascension. Since your terminology is all over the place, I haven't got the faintest idea what you're trying to claim here. For starters, Time Lords don't rule multiverses, they rule universes. Furthermore, dungeon masters correspond to Supreme Beings, not Time Lords. Finally, the Mortiverse has to be from the same multiverse as Pun-Pun as traveling to a different multiverse means going to an entirely different system, WoD or GURPS, for example, which can't be the case, since both the Mortiverse and Pun-Pun are built with D20. Pun-Pun has all portfolio powers too. And Perfect Initiative, and Infinite Dexterity, and infinite dexterity underneath of that, while mortiverse only has finite underneath that. You're a little behind the times, the Mortiverse has Infinite Dexterity, and aleph-aleph-0 dexterity behind that, somewhat counter-intuitively. How is Pun-Pun going to get any of that if he can't even achieve Divinity in the first place? Until you realise that pointing out my typos or grammer mistakes doesnt do anything for you're argument. I think you mean "grammar" (well, "grammatical"), "doesn't" and "your", although I did hear "grammer" coined a while ago to mean "the type of spelling and grammar used by people who can't spell". It doesn't do anything for my argument. This doesn't make your errors any less wrong. Firstly, because if Maniplate Form is not available, you are not defeating Pun-Pun. To be defeating Pun-Pun, you ahve to fight him post-ascension. Once you do, he already has every beneficial anything in the game. You're missing the point. Manipulate Form is available, whenever the Mortiverse's Tenth Sense reveals to it that the prospective Pun-Pun is going to attempt to grant himself an ability that doesn't threaten it, thus, Pun-Pun's ascension is assured, but only in cases where it only selects abilities that don't render him a threat to the Mortiverse. No, it relies on the possibility of eventually encountering such an ability, which is a very poor assumption to make. The possibility of eventually encountering the ability is taken care of in the text of the ability itself, so that isn't an assumption that is necessary. I think Buugipopuu should calm down for starters, anytime I see someone comment on spelling and grammer, I know the arguement, or at least that paticular participant is either getting frustrated, or running out of ideas. Attacking people, even in such a mundane way shows very little tact. Oh, a versus debate is no place for tact. Anyway, correcting people's spelling and grammar is like picking up litter. Having run on sentences, spelling errors, commas (where there should be none) and no commas (where there should be one) scattered about a post is an eyesore, and a cancer that makes other people think it's okay to spell like a dyslexic primary school student. Secondly, The above quote. Blowing up a tree gives me five levels. Why? Because there is no rule in D&D that doesn't say it doesn't. In fact, my level one fighter can fly by sheer force of his internal ki, throw energy blasts that destroy planets, and cause my hair to stand up golden on end. Oh, and I can destroy the Mortiverse because my character is inherently immune to all of his abilities, or any attempt at keeping him from coming into existance, and kills the Mortiverse permanently, in all of its incarnations the moment he decides to. And while I'm at it, you get slapped upside the head by an invisibile force since my character adds "Buu gets slapped by an invisible force" to his character sheet. You can't do any of that stuff because there's no rule that says you can. However once you get to the point where the rules have provision for the creation of new rules, there needs to be a set of rules governing what one cannot do when creating those rules. Since they're absent, odd self-referential rules and similar can be created.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-05-07, 02:05 PM	The two characters come from two different cosmologies. They can't ever meet. Oh and Buugipoopu, stop being such a grammar nazi. It makes you look like a fool. It's also against the CoC. Although, pointing that out might be against the CoC as well. Hmm...
EjoThims 10-05-07, 03:42 PM	I think you mean "grammar" (well, "grammatical"), "doesn't" and "your", although I did hear "grammer" coined a while ago to mean "the type of spelling and grammar used by people who can't spell". It doesn't do anything for my argument. This doesn't make your errors any less wrong. Wow... If that had bean anee moar over you're hed you would of not even sean it. You're missing the point. Manipulate Form is available, whenever the Mortiverse's Tenth Sense reveals to it that the prospective Pun-Pun is going to attempt to grant himself an ability that doesn't threaten it, thus, Pun-Pun's ascension is assured, but only in cases where it only selects abilities that don't render him a threat to the Mortiverse. This is not a full ascension and not defeating Pun-Pun. Essentially, you are saying, "Oh, he still has access to his trick, but he can't use it, so I win." There is no more challenge in this than in simply claiming you kill all 1st level characters to prevent any from becoming a challenge. You either fight Pun-Pun with the full scope of Manipulate Form's ability, or you aren't really fighting him at all. The possibility of eventually encountering the ability is taken care of in the text of the ability itself, so that isn't an assumption that is necessary. But the modified ability still has to be encountered, eventually, to be taken, and it is a possiblity that that never happens. Thus, making the assumption that it does is a poor basis for having that ability. Oh, a versus debate is no place for tact. Anyway, correcting people's spelling and grammar is like picking up litter. Having run on sentences, spelling errors, commas (where there should be none) and no commas (where there should be one) scattered about a post is an eyesore, and a cancer that makes other people think it's okay to spell like a dyslexic primary school student. As much an eyesore as it can be, mistakes are made, and if the text is still legible and relative to the conversation, countering the points made will always be much better than correcting those mistakes. And regardless of your own correctness in writing, once you begin attempting to speak down to others who write with the same grace they speak (or even less), the only one you truly belittle is yourself.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-05-07, 04:16 PM	Relax. Servitor of Wrath has conceded. enworld link (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3013993&postcount=25) And yet it's still weaker than Pun-Pun. Blingy the Psicrystal acknowledges the "sfitzing".
Deamon 10-05-07, 04:37 PM	He made that post before the mortiverse gained its divine abilities.
BillTheManiac 10-05-07, 05:34 PM	"Proof?" is a complete sentence. Not one acceptable in formal writing, but a sentence nonetheless. Mixing up "its" and "it's" isn't informal; it's outright wrong. If I were to pick people up on style issues as well as errors, as you just did, I'd hit the character limit of the forum software. You shouldn't use "really" in consecutive sentences, for example. It's redundant. You meant "there", along with "its"/"it's" and "you're"/"your", that's a mistake that nobody should ever make. You're also wrong. Pair up all the non-inter-referential spells with the natural numbers. You will find that there are as many as there are natural numbers. Then read the text of Ward and Transform. Both allow a spell to refer to another epic spell. Each non-inter-referential spell can have versions made of it which refer to any number of other spells. Number each inter-referential spell as such: n + m/o, where n is the number of the base spell, m is the number of the spell being referred to, and o is a power of 10 larger than m but smaller than 10m. This puts a lot more spells between every non-inter-referential spell. But this creates a lot more spells, which can be referred to (as a spell can refer to more than one spell, and can refer to spells which themselves refer to other spells), allowing each interval between singularly inter-referential spells to be filled with more spells. Thus, between any two numbered spells, there are always more spells. This means that there are at least as many spells as there are subsets of the set of natural numbers, which happen to be as numerous as the real numbers, which means there are at least aleph-1. There are possibly even more spells than this, because spells can refer to "specific individuals", so there have to be more spells than there are possible specific individuals, and combinations of multiple specific individuals. Please stop talking about the grammar. There merely being no upper limit to the number of actions one can take in a turn does not mean that one has an infinite number. There's no upper limit to the size a number you can write down in decimal notation, but you can't write down an infinite number in decimal notation. The same thing applies here. You can't perform an infinite number of actions if each one requires player input, only if through some triggering condition, they are all performed automatically. They don't all require player input, unless you find your groups describe an eight-hour walk in 2880 rounds. The sum amount of player input is "I perform the discussed loops aleph null more times". Oh, and you can make an awaken trap+(something to change type) trap and get infinite. No it isn't. The Mortiverse's divine realm is everywhere because it has dominated every dimension. Pun-Pun's is only infinite in size. It doesn't cross dimensional boundries. Yeah. Feats are abilities, so this is totally wrong. They're explicitly referred to in the IH as "Mortal Abilities". Alright, then. Now I argue the special text is not part of the feat, but is in fact a change to the rules. This is because abilities do not effect those who do not have them, therefore the special text is not part of the ability. Since your terminology is all over the place, I haven't got the faintest idea what you're trying to claim here. Sorry I don't own your book of uber secrets For starters, Time Lords don't rule multiverses, they rule universes. What things rule multiverses then? Furthermore, dungeon masters correspond to Supreme Beings, not Time Lords.Permissive DM was a joke.Finally, the Mortiverse has to be from the same multiverse as Pun-Pun as traveling to a different multiverse means going to an entirely different system, WoD or GURPS, for example, which can't be the case, since both the Mortiverse and Pun-Pun are built with D20. Then if I create Mortiverse in my D&D campaign does that mean no one in any D&D game ever can use any of their abilities? That sucks. You're a little behind the times, the Mortiverse has Infinite Dexterity, and aleph-aleph-0 dexterity behind that, somewhat counter-intuitively. How is Pun-Pun going to get any of that if he can't even achieve Divinity in the first place? except he can. I think you mean "grammar" (well, "grammatical"), "doesn't" and "your", although I did hear "grammer" coined a while ago to mean "the type of spelling and grammar used by people who can't spell". It doesn't do anything for my argument. This doesn't make your errors any less wrong. But it does mean no one cares. You're missing the point. Manipulate Form is available, whenever the Mortiverse's Tenth Sense reveals to it that the prospective Pun-Pun is going to attempt to grant himself an ability that doesn't threaten it, thus, Pun-Pun's ascension is assured, but only in cases where it only selects abilities that don't render him a threat to the Mortiverse. Does bubble render him a threat to Mortiverse? I don't think so, it is purely defensive. Then we have the interesting issue of whether a Mortiverse can block something that happens in a completely different time stream. I mean, no effect or emanation or whatever outside the time stream can get in. I think Mortiverse would have to be an idiot to let anyone use any abilities at all, ever. Just in case....... The possibility of eventually encountering the ability is taken care of in the text of the ability itself, so that isn't an assumption that is necessary. Oh, a versus debate is no place for tact. Anyway, correcting people's spelling and grammar is like picking up litter. Having run on sentences, spelling errors, commas (where there should be none) and no commas (where there should be one) scattered about a post is an eyesore, and a cancer that makes other people think it's okay to spell like a dyslexic primary school student. You can't do any of that stuff because there's no rule that says you can. However once you get to the point where the rules have provision for the creation of new rules, there needs to be a set of rules governing what one cannot do when creating those rules. Since they're absent, odd self-referential rules and similar can be created.[/QUOTE]
Bauglir 10-06-07, 01:16 PM	A complete sentence, eh? Show me the verb. What you had was a fragment, my good sir. And how many people complain about grammar outside of formal writing? Honestly, nobody I've ever heard of will do that unless it is an attempt to feed his or her own ego. Now, I know you'll go on about how people should make an attempt to meet the standards of properly written English, but this is a forum where people often speak casually (not formally, as you've mentioned before). 133t is to be avoided, but perfection is hardly demanded. There's no need to correct such things as "its" vs "it's" when the correct one can easily be derived from context. The writer either wasn't putting a great deal of effort into their post (no problem, this is still just a recreational forum), or won't pay attention to your corrections beyond telling you not to be a grammar Nazi, as you have no means of punishing them for it (like, say, grading), and so you still do nobody a service. What I'm saying is, claiming that you can use something unacceptable in formal writing because this is an informal situation cannot be done at the same time as correcting other people on errors that do not confuse the meaning of a message (which are acceptable errors, because it's informal). So stop being a hypocrite. Plus, it's off topic. Go start your own thread about the downfall of modern society because people can't spell properly. Not that it'll be around for too long without being locked, but at least you can say your arguments were in the right place.
Zelck 10-06-07, 02:50 PM	This is, uh, really silly? We have Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun can get infinite everything using abilities in only WotC books. We have Mortiverse, who can get infinite everything thanks to some 3rd-party book. They seem like they're doing the same thing, but we'll try to compare which one's better. Hmm. Well, for mechanical elegance, I'd go with Pun-Pun. It's not tough for a 3rd-party book to print some random overpowered mechanic that allows for infinite loops. Plus, how Mortiverse can come to even exist is a question mark, whereas Pun-Pun has a specific and accessible method of ascension. If we want to see which is more powerful, well, I can one-up you all. Favored of the Real-Life People [Template] Creating a Favored of the Real-Life People "Favored of the Real-Life People" (referred to hereafter as "FotRLP") is a template that can be added to any character (referred to hereafter as the base creature). An FotRLP uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except noted here. Qualities An FotRLP gains the ability to alter its statistics and abilities at the whim of the people playing the game. It can, for instance, have have infinite hit points, ability scores, base attack bonus, caster levels, skill points, etc. This infinity can be infinitely larger than any other infinity. Additionally, it can gain any ability, even unique abilities that don't exist in any published source. This ability is a meta-ability (not an Ex, Su, or Sp ability), meaning it trumps and is not affected by any in-game ability. Yes, this allows an FotRLP to utterly destroy Pun-Pun, the Mortiverse, or any other being in the D20 universe that you think might be totally awesome. Environment Any (but it breaks the fourth wall) Challenge Rating Lol (overcoming a hostile FotRLP does not result in a gain in experience points or wealth; instead, it probably means you got kicked out of the gaming group) Level Adjustment Negative infinity (because you get infinite hit dice, remember?) Alignment Pure cheese I win? :D
BillTheManiac 10-06-07, 06:11 PM	Actually, that template is typically called "DM fiat". Mortiverse is essentially limited DM fiat, while Pun-Pun is awesomed-up player power. Because DM fiat is boring and optomization is interesting, Pun-Pun deserves to win.
Zelck 10-06-07, 08:25 PM	Actually, that template is typically called "DM fiat". Mortiverse is essentially limited DM fiat, while Pun-Pun is awesomed-up player power. Because DM fiat is boring and optomization is interesting, Pun-Pun deserves to win. That's sort of my point (except the very last part being a bit different). If you want to challenge Pun-Pun with "Super templates x9001!" found in some 3rd-party book, why not just go all the way and apply FotRLP? Pun-Pun is much more interesting than Mortiverse is, certainly. If we're judging based on design elegance, Pun-Pun wins. The sad thing is, even with the extreme brute force power of Mortiverse, Pun-Pun might be able to fight him to a draw (since I'm pretty sure they have access to each others' abilities).
Buugipopuu 10-06-07, 09:32 PM	They don't all require player input, unless you find your groups describe an eight-hour walk in 2880 rounds. The sum amount of player input is "I perform the discussed loops aleph null more times". There are special rules for traveling to places and other mundane tasks (skill checks that take all day, for example) that bypass the normal round structure, and most DMs rarely enforce the round structure outside of combat since it just gets in the way without actually adding anything to the game (although there are cases where round-by-round breakdowns of noncombat action was required). There are no such special rules for streamlining infinite action tricks as there are for streamlining travel and stuff like Gather Information, so you have to go through the usual channels. Alright, then. Now I argue the special text is not part of the feat, but is in fact a change to the rules. This is because abilities do not effect those who do not have them, therefore the special text is not part of the ability. The special text is part of the ability, otherwise it wouldn't be in the ability's entry. Sorry I don't own your book of uber secrets What things rule multiverses then? Permissive DM was a joke. The "ruler" section of the multiverse entry is empty. Thus: nothing. Then if I create Mortiverse in my D&D campaign does that mean no one in any D&D game ever can use any of their abilities? That sucks. All the other DMs rule zero it out. except he can. That'll be pretty hard to do without any magic or supernatural abilities (except of course the ones the Mortiverse lets through). Even Dead Zone prevents an impenetrable barrier to gaining divinity, let alone any of the Mortiverse's more restrictive powers. Does bubble render him a threat to Mortiverse? I don't think so, it is purely defensive. Then we have the interesting issue of whether a Mortiverse can block something that happens in a completely different time stream. I mean, no effect or emanation or whatever outside the time stream can get in. I think Mortiverse would have to be an idiot to let anyone use any abilities at all, ever. Just in case....... It renders him a threat for the purpose of this debate, as it would impede his completion of his objective (slaying Pun-Pun). The Mortiverse's aura permeates the entire Universe. This includes all time streams within it.
BillTheManiac 10-07-07, 08:30 AM	There are special rules for traveling to places and other mundane tasks (skill checks that take all day, for example) that bypass the normal round structure, and most DMs rarely enforce the round structure outside of combat since it just gets in the way without actually adding anything to the game (although there are cases where round-by-round breakdowns of noncombat action was required). There are no such special rules for streamlining infinite action tricks as there are for streamlining travel and stuff like Gather Information, so you have to go through the usual channels. TG thinks it can't (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=777565&highlight=Ghola). Also, Pun-Pun never has to pass priority. He has no reason to pass priority, ever. So he won't. If you are counting out-of-game-time as a thing, Pun-Pun uses up all the out-of-game time before Morty can get any of it, so it's at least a draw. EDIT: La, la, la. PP can just feed Awaken and PAO (to turn his type to animal) to automated loops. There, infinite HD. The special text is part of the ability, otherwise it wouldn't be in the ability's entry. No, abilities don't have special text. Have you ever seen Improved Grab (Ex) You can grab stuff on natural attacks. Prequisites: Natural attack Effect: Choose a natural attack. Whenever you hit with the natural attack, you may start a grapple as a free action. There is no need for a touch attack or attack of opportunity. Special: You may take this ability multiple times. Each time it applies to a new attack. No, you haven't, because feats are not abilities. Feats grant abilities. The "ruler" section of the multiverse entry is empty. Thus: nothing. Ok, whatever. Nothing rules Pun-Pun's multiverse, but a few generic noninterfering time lords rule individual universes. All the other DMs rule zero it out. OK, RPGA/tournament type things where rule zero is not allowed. That'll be pretty hard to do without any magic or supernatural abilities (except of course the ones the Mortiverse lets through). Even Dead Zone prevents an impenetrable barrier to gaining divinity, let alone any of the Mortiverse's more restrictive powers. He gains divinity before Mortiverse gets in. Anything else is killing him pre-ascension. It renders him a threat for the purpose of this debate, as it would impede his completion of his objective (slaying Pun-Pun). The Mortiverse's aura permeates the entire Universe. This includes all time streams within it. Does it say anywhere the aura goes forwards or backwards in time?
Buugipopuu 10-07-07, 08:26 PM	TG thinks it can't (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=777565&highlight=Ghola). Also, Pun-Pun never has to pass priority. He has no reason to pass priority, ever. So he won't. If you are counting out-of-game-time as a thing, Pun-Pun uses up all the out-of-game time before Morty can get any of it, so it's at least a draw. EDIT: La, la, la. PP can just feed Awaken and PAO (to turn his type to animal) to automated loops. There, infinite HD. In that case he only has the lack of knowledge in his way, so it's only impossible for one independent reason, not two. No, abilities don't have special text. Have you ever seen Improved Grab (Ex) You can grab stuff on natural attacks. Prequisites: Natural attack Effect: Choose a natural attack. Whenever you hit with the natural attack, you may start a grapple as a free action. There is no need for a touch attack or attack of opportunity. Special: You may take this ability multiple times. Each time it applies to a new attack. No, you haven't, because feats are not abilities. Feats grant abilities. Yes, I have. Several hundred times, in fact. Every ability in the IH is set out like that. Ok, whatever. Nothing rules Pun-Pun's multiverse, but a few generic noninterfering time lords rule individual universes. That statement is at odds with the Mortiverse's existence. You don't get to embody 88 universes if there are any other Time Lords around. They'd have to be dead or consumed to allow anything like that. The sheer amount of power imbalance pretty much means the only universes around are the ones inside the Mortiverse. OK, RPGA/tournament type things where rule zero is not allowed. If they knew about it, they'd specifically bar all IH material (or implicitly barring it by having never heard of it). Nobody sane would let that stuff into an environment where you can't rule zero the horrible imbalance away. He gains divinity before Mortiverse gets in. Anything else is killing him pre-ascension. Not so. It is possible to meet the requirements for ascension without gaining divinity. Does it say anywhere the aura goes forwards or backwards in time? The various nth Sense abilities have you spreading your manifestations' existence over increasingly large spans of time, so yes. More concretely, due to the odd time traits of various planes, an aura that extends across planar boundaries (such as one filling the Universe) will extend out into the Far Place, and back in to all the other planes at every point in time simultaneously.
BillTheManiac 10-07-07, 09:01 PM	In that case he only has the lack of knowledge in his way, so it's only impossible for one independent reason, not two. He knows of the potentiality of a being more powerful then himself. Since he has no reason to ever leave a bubble, I don't see why he wouldn't. If he wants to interact with other creatures, he can just Synchronity or somesuch them. Yes, I have. Several hundred times, in fact. Every ability in the IH is set out like that. That's because those abilities can be gained methodologically. Abilities in themselves cannot. That statement is at odds with the Mortiverse's existence. You don't get to embody 88 universes if there are any other Time Lords around. They'd have to be dead or consumed to allow anything like that. The sheer amount of power imbalance pretty much means the only universes around are the ones inside the Mortiverse. Clearly, Mortiverse hasn't gotten to it yet. If they knew about it, they'd specifically bar all IH material (or implicitly barring it by having never heard of it). Nobody sane would let that stuff into an environment where you can't rule zero the horrible imbalance away. Considering that this thread is an environment where you cannot use rule zero, this calls into question your sanity... Because you are insane, your word cannot be trusted, so anything you say about IH could be incorrect, so I am free to believe whatever I wish. Not so. It is possible to meet the requirements for ascension without gaining divinity. But Pun-Pun's ascension is his attainment of maximum power, which obviously includes divinity. The various nth Sense abilities have you spreading your manifestations' existence over increasingly large spans of time, so yes. More concretely, due to the odd time traits of various planes, an aura that extends across planar boundaries (such as one filling the Universe) will extend out into the Far PlaceFar Realms-right?, and back in to all the other planes at every point in time simultaneously. You'd have to have an inverse timeless plane to do that, where the entire Material span of time is finite time on that plane. Does such a plane exist? If so, then yeah, you can veto anything Pun-Pun does, but his ascension is defined as the point after which he has achieved everything he can achieve within the bounds of the rules, which includes infinite IH DvR, which will enable him to equal or defeat Mortiverse in everything.
Zelck 10-07-07, 11:59 PM	Wait. It seems like Buugipopuu is arguing that Pun-Pun "takes time" to ascend, and Mortiverse can interrupt that from happening. Isn't that a double standard? Why does the Mortiverse get to start at his base power level? Heck, how does a Mortiverse even come to exist in the first place? I mean, if you're going to force Pun-Pun to start off as a level 1 kobold, then shouldn't Mortiverse start off as an ECL1 character? If Pun-Pun has to start from incomplete power (aka right before he does the infinite loops in zero time to gain impressive stuff), shouldn't the Mortiverse as well?
Archangel_Tyrael 10-08-07, 02:22 AM	Where do PunPun and Morti buy their clothes from? Don't be stupid. Morti has all the clothes from every intelligent being from 18 universes already. There's no way he would EVER need to buy clothes. Pun Pun is a fashion designer, he makes his own clothes. (Awesome questions, btw. :P) Wait. It seems like Buugipopuu is arguing that Pun-Pun "takes time" to ascend, and Mortiverse can interrupt that from happening. Isn't that a double standard? Why does the Mortiverse get to start at his base power level? Heck, how does a Mortiverse even come to exist in the first place? I mean, if you're going to force Pun-Pun to start off as a level 1 kobold, then shouldn't Mortiverse start off as an ECL1 character? If Pun-Pun has to start from incomplete power (aka right before he does the infinite loops in zero time to gain impressive stuff), shouldn't the Mortiverse as well? This seems fair. What are the Mortiverse's stats at level 1?
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-08-07, 08:51 AM	4d6, drop the lowest roll [Infinite]? I don't think Mort starts as a level 1 character though. Time Lords and the like quite literally spring into being through universal genesis. So he more likely starts around ECL 750 or so.
Buugipopuu 10-09-07, 06:24 AM	He knows of the potentiality of a being more powerful then himself. Since he has no reason to ever leave a bubble, I don't see why he wouldn't. If he wants to interact with other creatures, he can just Synchronity or somesuch them. Not the lack of knowledge of the Mortiverse, the lack of knowledge of a Epic Spell capable of granting divinity that doesn't have mitigating factors that render it entirely useless. That's because those abilities can be gained methodologically. Abilities in themselves cannot. But they aren't so fundamentally different that the presence of special text in them doesn't set the correct precedent. Clearly, Mortiverse hasn't gotten to it yet. With infinite actions, "yet" isn't very long after the creation of the multiverse. Considering that this thread is an environment where you cannot use rule zero, this calls into question your sanity... Because you are insane, your word cannot be trusted, so anything you say about IH could be incorrect, so I am free to believe whatever I wish. I don't make the rules, I just follow them. It's the OP who decided that the IH is to be used, and that is proving to be not the best decision he ever made. But Pun-Pun's ascension is his attainment of maximum power, which obviously includes divinity. That's a meaningless definition, since his power is always increasing, so it never hits a maximum. You'd have to have an inverse timeless plane to do that, where the entire Material span of time is finite time on that plane. Does such a plane exist? If so, then yeah, you can veto anything Pun-Pun does, but his ascension is defined as the point after which he has achieved everything he can achieve within the bounds of the rules, which includes infinite IH DvR, which will enable him to equal or defeat Mortiverse in everything. The IH used Far Place. I like the term "Place" instead of "Realm", a realm sounds far too organised, as comes from the word meaning "government". There's not a single plane in the IH cosmology that would allow an aura to spread throughout all time, but Yetzirah (the dimension comprising of the Astral, Ethereal and Shadow planes), can accomplish it. The Ethereal Plane allows travel to the past in the IH cosmology, and the Plane of Shadow allows travel to the future. The requirement for all time on the Material to be finite isn't necessary. The Aura Spreads onto the Ethereal, and back on to the Material in the past, some finite time interval ago, and then back into the Ethereal, where it spreads back into the Material further into the past, and so on. The aura effectively becomes a space-time filling volume (with an analogy to a space-filling curve). Repeat with the plane of Shadow for the future. This is assuming that Byss doesn't just allow for the aura to spread to all of time in one step, which is unsure, because its time traits aren't listed in Ascension. Isn't that a double standard? Why does the Mortiverse get to start at his base power level? Heck, how does a Mortiverse even come to exist in the first place? It's a Universe. Who the hell heard of a 1 HD Universe? It's entirely possible to optain the Mortiverse's stats with a Time Lord of Magic in a single swift action, or a Time Lord of any other portfolio if you've got any equipment, so the Mortiverse effectively sprang into being fully powered.
Archangel_Tyrael 10-09-07, 04:08 PM	It's a Universe. Who the hell heard of a 1 HD Universe? It's entirely possible to optain the Mortiverse's stats with a Time Lord of Magic in a single swift action, or a Time Lord of any other portfolio if you've got any equipment, so the Mortiverse effectively sprang into being fully powered. Octodecaogdoad Nona-Macrobe Amidah Apocalyptic Black-Hole-Spawned Legion Elder Unelemental Xona-Titanic Outsider (Extraplanar) Looks like it's an Unelemental to me.
Frobojoe 10-09-07, 04:55 PM	Looks like it's an Unelemental to me. It's both!
BillTheManiac 10-09-07, 05:36 PM	Not the lack of knowledge of the Mortiverse, the lack of knowledge of a Epic Spell capable of granting divinity that doesn't have mitigating factors that render it entirely useless. Backlash aleph null d6 damage? He does have infinite HD, because it's an automated loops. But they aren't so fundamentally different that the presence of special text in them doesn't set the correct precedent. They are extremely different. Feats/Divine Power Thingies all have the same power curve, abilities can be anything from "daylight powerlessness" to "singular enemy". The ability to have all feats is limited by the power curve of feats. The ability to have all abilities is limited by the existence of abilities. With infinite actions, "yet" isn't very long after the creation of the multiverse. New idea, then: Pun-Pun was born in a time bubble, and grew to infinite power in the bubble. The bubble was created by another time lord on the first round of the universe. I don't make the rules, I just follow them. It's the OP who decided that the IH is to be used, and that is proving to be not the best decision he ever made. I was joking anyways. That's a meaningless definition, since his power is always increasing, so it never hits a maximum. Alright, then: Maximum meaninful level. Alternately, 1 round after he gets infinite actions. The IH used Far Place. I like the term "Place" instead of "Realm", a realm sounds far too organised, as comes from the word meaning "government". I think place sounds boring. To each his own. Besides, its "Realms", and there are some very powerful beings, each with their own dominion, in the Far Realms. There's not a single plane in the IH cosmology that would allow an aura to spread throughout all time, but Yetzirah (the dimension comprising of the Astral, Ethereal and Shadow planes), can accomplish it. The Ethereal Plane allows travel to the past in the IH cosmology, and the Plane of Shadow allows travel to the future. The requirement for all time on the Material to be finite isn't necessary. The Aura Spreads onto the Ethereal, and back on to the Material in the past, some finite time interval ago, and then back into the Ethereal, where it spreads back into the Material further into the past, and so on. The aura effectively becomes a space-time filling volume (with an analogy to a space-filling curve). Repeat with the plane of Shadow for the future. This is assuming that Byss doesn't just allow for the aura to spread to all of time in one step, which is unsure, because its time traits aren't listed in Ascension. But a space-time filling volume would have to have Aleph 1 volume, so Mortiverse's divine aura would have Aleph 1 radius. It's a Universe. Who the hell heard of a 1 HD Universe? It's entirely possible to optain the Mortiverse's stats with a Time Lord of Magic in a single swift action, or a Time Lord of any other portfolio if you've got any equipment, so the Mortiverse effectively sprang into being fully powered. 15th level wizard/archmage with Mastery of Shaping Quickened Summon Monster II (kaorti) Planar Bubble targeting Kaorti shaped as a cone pointing to wizard. Clearly there are time lords who are 15th level wizards.
Sagetim 10-09-07, 09:48 PM	The two characters come from two different cosmologies. They can't ever meet. Oh and Buugipoopu, stop being such a grammar nazi. It makes you look like a fool. It's also against the CoC. Although, pointing that out might be against the CoC as well. Hmm... This is a what if situation. No saying 'it can't happen so there's no point'. That's a cop out.
Buugipopuu 10-10-07, 09:05 PM	Looks like it's an Unelemental to me. "Octodecaogdoad" is the relevant term there. The base creature is almost entirely irrelevant given that any octodecaogdoad is going to be pretty much identical. Backlash aleph null d6 damage? He does have infinite HD, because it's an automated loops. Good luck accomplishing anything with that. Subtraction isn't defined for infinite numbers. Anyway, the DC of the divinity-granting spells increases faster than y = cx (but with no particular function). They are extremely different. Feats/Divine Power Thingies all have the same power curve, abilities can be anything from "daylight powerlessness" to "singular enemy". The ability to have all feats is limited by the power curve of feats. The ability to have all abilities is limited by the existence of abilities. "The same power curve"? "the power curve of feats?" What does that even mean? The words "power curve" and "Immortals Handbook" don't mix. Maybe "power step function", or "power singularity" might be appropriate. Oh, and don't think you're getting away with calling Divine Abilities "Divine Power Thingies" just to try and avoid referring to them as abilities. They're explicitly stated to be abilities. Just because they're gained through divinity, instead of being SQs on an entry in the MM doesn't change that. New idea, then: Pun-Pun was born in a time bubble, and grew to infinite power in the bubble. The bubble was created by another time lord on the first round of the universe. That's going outside the scope of this debate. It's Pun-Pun vs the Mortiverse, not Pun-Pun and a Time Lord vs the Mortiverse. Alright, then: Maximum meaninful level. Alternately, 1 round after he gets infinite actions. You know, since the Mortiverse's aura has been revealed to extend into the future, it can use Paradox to generate an infinite number (I'm not sure which one, given that all the copies generate more copies, and so on, probably aleph-1, but it depends on the way the abilities work) of copies of Pun-Pun from the future, and send them against the Pun-Pun of the now. If you really insist on defining Pun-Pun in that way, pulling out the really big guns is justified. But a space-time filling volume would have to have Aleph 1 volume, so Mortiverse's divine aura would have Aleph 1 radius. Wrong in several ways, the most obvious being that the Mortiverse's aura doesn't operate under notions of radius. It extends across the entire Universe, regardless of how big that may be. 15th level wizard/archmage with Mastery of Shaping Quickened Summon Monster II (kaorti) Planar Bubble targeting Kaorti shaped as a cone pointing to wizard. Clearly there are time lords who are 15th level wizards. And exactly how is this relevant? If it's a Time Lord doing the trick, you're being rather inefficient with it. It might as well just adopt Zoas traits with Divine Inspiration (if it doesn't have them already) and cast Planar Bubble on itself. Or in even fewer actions by adopting Zoas traits and then using one of its Anyfeats to get Permanent Emanation (Planar Bubble), which takes 2 free actions, assuming it didn't have Permanent Emanation and Zoas traits to begin with.
AlterFrom 10-10-07, 10:02 PM	What are Zoas traits?
Zelck 10-13-07, 01:03 AM	Honestly, a Toad with the FotRLP template would kick both contestants' butts. You know, since the Mortiverse's aura has been revealed to extend into the future, it can use Paradox to generate an infinite number (I'm not sure which one, given that all the copies generate more copies, and so on, probably aleph-1, but it depends on the way the abilities work) of copies of Pun-Pun from the future, and send them against the Pun-Pun of the now. If you really insist on defining Pun-Pun in that way, pulling out the really big guns is justified. And Pun-Pun can't use the same trick because...?
BillTheManiac 10-13-07, 06:47 AM	Mortiverse can become Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun can become Mortiverse. It's a draw, folks.
SokenzanMarauder 10-13-07, 03:26 PM	Mortiverse can become Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun can become Mortiverse. It's a draw, folks.I'd like to see your opposition admit that. -Gene
Arctigear 10-13-07, 03:44 PM	First, I do not understand how exactly the Mortiverse comes into existence. Arguing that the mortiverse is superior simply because it came first and can therefore stop pun-pun's ascension is rather meaningless in comparing the two. Further, if Pun-Pun exists first, Morti cannot ascend. If, however, they were to come into existence at the same moment (the kobold and w.e Morti was before being morti), Pun-pun has an obvious advantage because of the speed of his ascension. There are already creatures that can beat pun-pun if they come into existence before him (the omnicifier, for example). In the impossible case that the two, for some time, coexist as enemies, it is rather unclear as to who would win. I would lead to pun-pun simply because, without infinite loops, he can raise his stats to NI, whereas Morti's are limited without them. Also, it is unclear to me whether Morti is capable of some of the psionic tricks available to Pun-pun (such as the well-dubbed 'save game' trick). It appears the Morti does not truly have infinite Hit dice, as Pun-pun does, and is therefore subject to Holy Word. Proving that one is unequivocally better than the other is very difficult to do because of the scope of abilities each one has. It is my opinion that they simply cannot coexist.
Witch 10-13-07, 04:45 PM	Arctigear - Mortiverse was nothing before becoming Mortiverse. Mortiverse is, was, and will be: Upper Krust's higher level deities could be considered similar to the Abrahamic God. I'm not going to include myself on the numerically absurd debate dealing in different degrees of infinity, however. This is D&D - not Advanced Set Theory II.
Buugipopuu 10-14-07, 11:32 AM	What are Zoas traits? They're to the Far Place what Angels are to the upper planes. The traits haven't been written yet, but the important bit is getting your home plane switched to the Far Place. And Pun-Pun can't use the same trick because...? Double Entropy Portfolio + Double Community Portfolio. Summoned creatures in the Mortiverse's Divine Aura are automatically banished, while creatures the Mortiverse summons cannot be banished. In the impossible case that the two, for some time, coexist as enemies, it is rather unclear as to who would win. I would lead to pun-pun simply because, without infinite loops, he can raise his stats to NI, whereas Morti's are limited without them. Also, it is unclear to me whether Morti is capable of some of the psionic tricks available to Pun-pun (such as the well-dubbed 'save game' trick). It appears the Morti does not truly have infinite Hit dice, as Pun-pun does, and is therefore subject to Holy Word. Without infinite loops the Mortiverse's stats are still all aleph-1 (completing its transfinite Divinity trick just the once, rather than aleph-1 times). The Mortiverse has every class feature. It's capable of any trick that uses class features, like the save game trick; I'm just choosing not to use Manipulate form-related tricks because that would be cheating. Said trick sucks at this level, because it relies on time-hopping a psicrystal which can be ganked. The Mortiverse does have infinite HD (and more HD shortly after) as soon as it takes one swift action to give itself DvR Infinity, and so gain Extra Level an infinite number of times with all of its spare Divine Ability slots. This is irrelevant for the purpose of Holy Word, since it also has Apostasy, which means it is immune to all alignment-based effects.
AlterFrom 10-14-07, 12:21 PM	They're to the Far Place what Angels are to the upper planes. The traits haven't been written yet, but the important bit is getting your home plane switched to the Far Place. Haven't been written? Huh? Without infinite loops the Mortiverse's stats are still all aleph-1 (completing its transfinite Divinity trick just the once, rather than aleph-1 times). The Mortiverse has every class feature. It's capable of any trick that uses class features, like the save game trick; I'm just choosing not to use Manipulate form-related tricks because that would be cheating. Said trick sucks at this level, because it relies on time-hopping a psicrystal which can be ganked. The Mortiverse does have infinite HD (and more HD shortly after) as soon as it takes one swift action to give itself DvR Infinity, and so gain Extra Level an infinite number of times with all of its spare Divine Ability slots. This is irrelevant for the purpose of Holy Word, since it also has Apostasy, which means it is immune to all alignment-based effects. How do these work, and/or how does Morti obtain them? I don't remember seeing them mentioned anywhere in the thread, and I don't see them mentioned in the original Mortiverse post. Are these just some abilities that Morti has that Servitor of Wrath "forgot" to put on his type-up? Or are they gained through your "run a DnD Game in my head" trick?
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-14-07, 12:56 PM	He's probably using his 12,844 remaining ability slots to purchase them at a whim. I forget how much Omnific abilties cost. Let's see. 1 Omnific= 6 Transcendental= 36 Cosmic= 216 Divine= 1296 Feats So there's several Omnific and many Transcendental abilities that he can still purchase
BillTheManiac 10-14-07, 05:45 PM	They're to the Far Place what Angels are to the upper planes. The traits haven't been written yet, but the important bit is getting your home plane switched to the Far Place. Double Entropy Portfolio + Double Community Portfolio. Summoned creatures in the Mortiverse's Divine Aura are automatically banished, while creatures the Mortiverse summons cannot be banished. Without infinite loops the Mortiverse's stats are still all aleph-1 (completing its transfinite Divinity trick just the once, rather than aleph-1 times). The Mortiverse has every class feature. It's capable of any trick that uses class features, like the save game trick; I'm just choosing not to use Manipulate form-related tricks because that would be cheating. Said trick sucks at this level, because it relies on time-hopping a psicrystal which can be ganked. The Mortiverse does have infinite HD (and more HD shortly after) as soon as it takes one swift action to give itself DvR Infinity, and so gain Extra Level an infinite number of times with all of its spare Divine Ability slots. This is irrelevant for the purpose of Holy Word, since it also has Apostasy, which means it is immune to all alignment-based effects. Ascension includes gaining infinite DvR, as mentioned in Pun-Pun thread (although in a different system with different mechanics). It is ascension, you know. Pun-Pun and Mortiverse can gain all of the other's abilities.
CrimsonDeath 10-15-07, 01:19 PM	He's probably using his 12,844 remaining ability slots to purchase them at a whim. I forget how much Omnific abilties cost. Let's see. 1 Omnific= 6 Transcendental= 36 Cosmic= 216 Divine= 1296 Feats So there's several Omnific and many Transcendental abilities that he can still purchase If he hasn't selected all his feats yet, doesn't that make him an illegal character?
Buugipopuu 10-17-07, 04:25 AM	Haven't been written? Huh? The IH is a work in progress. The Zoas traits are among some of the unfinished abilities, as are the Welkin and Omega templates, amongst other things. How do these work, and/or how does Morti obtain them? I don't remember seeing them mentioned anywhere in the thread, and I don't see them mentioned in the original Mortiverse post. Are these just some abilities that Morti has that Servitor of Wrath "forgot" to put on his type-up? Or are they gained through your "run a DnD Game in my head" trick? I was just using transfinite as a short hand for "a very very large number more than aleph-1 but less than aleph-aleph-1", and "divinity" as a catch-all term encompassing both Divine Status and Divine Rank. Apostasy is another generic IH ability. While the Mortiverse does have thousands of unspent ability points which could be used to obtain these abilities, it's irrelevant, because it's got Omneity and Infinite Intelligence already, and so can grant itself aleph-1 DvR as a swift action, meaning it gets aleph-1 ability points, and so gets every ability in the book aleph-1 times when it does.
1CentSage 10-17-07, 10:06 AM	I was just using transfinite as a short hand for "a very very large number more than aleph-1 but less than aleph-aleph-1", and "divinity" as a catch-all term encompassing both Divine Status and Divine Rank. Apostasy is another generic IH ability. While the Mortiverse does have thousands of unspent ability points which could be used to obtain these abilities, it's irrelevant, because it's got Omneity and Infinite Intelligence already, and so can grant itself aleph-1 DvR as a swift action, meaning it gets aleph-1 ability points, and so gets every ability in the book aleph-1 times when it does. I do not want to enter the discussion about who will win this rather obscure challenge, but I want to comment briefly on the inflationary (and imho for the arguments presented not necessary) use of cardinal numbers in this thread: Cardinal numbers are a concept from set theory allowing to "count" in an appropriate sense the number of members of an (in)finite set. In the case of infinite sets these are (under some general assumptions) the cardinal numbers "alephN" (N=0,1,2,...). It makes mathematically no sense to assign those numbers as values to "ordinary" variables like DvR, DR, stats, etc. . There is a conceptual difference between the notions of infinity used in " Value X is infinite" and " Set X is infinite". Cardinalities are concerned only with the last type of infinity and follow different rules than "ordinary" numbers. For example for the multiplication of two cardinalities X,Y: X*Y=max{X,Y}. Also cardinalities "aleph-aleph-1" do not exist in the usual mathematical terminology. Further, there are quite a few mathematical subtleties involved in assigning a "aleph" number to a given set due to what is called the "continuum hypothesis" and "the axiom of choice". So, if one really insists on using advanced mathematical concepts in a discaussion, one should take care to do it properly or at least make a serious attempt to do so. For this particular thread probably even 5 minutes on Wikipedia would have been enough to avoid most of the mathematical nonsense related to cardinalities which are imho in no way needed anyway for the subject at hand.
BillTheManiac 10-17-07, 05:38 PM	Buugipopuu is pretty good at this. So am I. Anyways, this is getting old 1. The "Pun-Pun" character contains infinite DvR 2. Pun-Pun can gain infinite DvR, through infinite DC epic spells 3. If Mortiverse prevents this, he is not killing Pun-Pun, but pre-Pun-Pun 4. With infinite DvR, Pun-Pun can do anything Mortiverse can. 5. Mortiverse can gain infinite DvR, through infinite DC epic spells. 6. With infinite DvR, Mortiverse can do anything Pun-Pun can. 7. It's a draw Any objections?
AlterFrom 10-18-07, 12:37 AM	Buugipopuu is pretty good at this. So am I. Anyways, this is getting old 1. The "Pun-Pun" character contains infinite DvR 2. Pun-Pun can gain infinite DvR, through infinite DC epic spells 3. If Mortiverse prevents this, he is not killing Pun-Pun, but pre-Pun-Pun 4. With infinite DvR, Pun-Pun can do anything Mortiverse can. 5. Mortiverse can gain infinite DvR, through infinite DC epic spells. 6. With infinite DvR, Mortiverse can do anything Pun-Pun can. 7. It's a draw Any objections? http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/LolCatRenderer2aspxtopYourstatement.jpg (Hey, it was that or Phoenix Wright. :rolleyes:) All-in-all, agreed. It had become "Cowboys and Indians" as one poster put it.
Sagetim 10-18-07, 01:14 AM	http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/LolCatRenderer2aspxtopYourstatement.jpg (Hey, it was that or Phoenix Wright. :rolleyes:) All-in-all, agreed. It had become "Cowboys and Indians" as one poster put it. Objection! no one ever said what aleph-1 means. I haven't taken anything past precalc, so a definition would be helpful. I can tell it means 'a really freakin big number' but what exactly does it mean?
BillTheManiac 10-18-07, 02:13 PM	All-in-all, agreed. It had become "Cowboys and Indians" as one poster put it. This is different. It never was that. It has always been a deep intellectual excersise. You try it. Still isn't cowboy and indians. Now we're getting into logical arguments. Someone will probably bring up a dictionary soon. It's fun. Objection! no one ever said what aleph-1 means. I haven't taken anything past precalc, so a definition would be helpful. I can tell it means 'a really freakin big number' but what exactly does it mean? OK. Start counting numbers, starting at 1, and increasing by 1 each time. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, ....... When you've counted every integer above 0, how many numbers have you counted? That's Aleph 0. Semi-correct definition of Aleph 1: Count all the numbers. Not just the integers, there are only Aleph 0 of those. Not just the rationals, still Aleph 0. Not just numbers that are solutions to polynomials, that's Aleph 0, too. Even numbers that could ever possibly be the answer to any math problem, ever aren't enough. All the numbers. That's Aleph 1. Technical note: Theoretically, there could be a number between those two numbers. "Aleph 1" means "the first number after Aleph 0".
AlterFrom 10-18-07, 02:55 PM	This is different. It never was that. It has always been a deep intellectual excersise. You try it. Still isn't cowboy and indians. Now we're getting into logical arguments. Someone will probably bring up a dictionary soon. It's fun. How 'bout some highlights? There merely being no upper limit to the number of actions one can take in a turn does not mean that one has an infinite number. There's no upper limit to the size a number you can write down in decimal notation, but you can't write down an infinite number in decimal notation. The same thing applies here. You can't perform an infinite number of actions if each one requires player input, only if through some triggering condition, they are all performed automatically. In particular, Mortiverse has no counter to Pun Puns ability to plane shift; while Mortiverse's reach is, for a lack of a better answer, 135 Trillion Light Years distant and its kill radii is about 6 Trillion miles across, it still can not break light speed, despite the speed presented. Mortiverse is being treated as a Massive DR deity; but for whatever reason, he doesn't seem to have most of the bells and whistles that a Deity gets. Lastly, the complete absence of spell-like abilities makes it clear that this is not a 'mage type villain'. Nor is there any real way for Mortiverse to drop onto someone--for, with its speed reduced to the speed of Light, its incredible size and larger kill zone would be detectable for years before its arrival. Pun Pun gets to buff--and he'll take his stats to true infinite. Pun Pun simply creates a subroutine that allows him to increase his powers infinitely and on a geometric basis, requiring zero time. Infinite Stats. And the ability to beat Morti's DR and SR, because, he can simply add them to himself. Any and all coolness that Mortiverse possesses, can simply be added to Pun Pun by manipulate Form. Now, all Pun Pun needs to do is to beat the Mortiverse on a Divine Rank check to submit it to his Mass Death SDA--which is not allowing a Saving Throw. Mortiverse may have rejuvenate, but it's physical form is out of action at this time. Indeed, Pun Pun simply succeeds on another Rank Check, and Mortiverse is forever dead--But Pun Pun is well outside of the range of his death throes effect. Pun Pun wins. Actually it is a deity, with divine rank in the tens of thousands. However Pun-Pun can't get and loses all denifits of maniupulate form due to the mortiverses aboragate ability. Mass death doesn't work on deities. I don't know Mortiverse's backstory, but Pun-Pun can travel back to round 1 of the universe, and take infinite actions per round, therefore he can draw any creature that does not have whatever the "Cheezy Initiative" ability is called AND existed at the beginning of time. If that creature alsodoesn't have what the "Cheezy Defense" ability is called, Pun-Pun wins. I'd like to point out the Pun-Pun's stats are more infinite then Mortiverse's, because they are truly infinite, not just treated as infinite but really large. Pun-Pun is infinite to the core. I win You win. At everything. Against anyone. Prerequisites: Pun-Pun Benefit: You can, as an immediate action, win. There is no save or spell resistance for this. This is an Extrodinary ability. Pun-Pun can't cast any spells or use any divine abilites whilst in the same multiverse as the mortiverse. Luckily Pun-Pun resides in the Far Realms, which is outside the multiverse. With his observation ability he notices the moment of Mortiverse's coming and goes back in time to save the world. Too much on page 1...let's skip to page7. Originally Posted by YOU_ARE_WRONG View Post I don't frequent these boards. I don't care to debate the minutia of which nigh-omnipotent being is more nigh-omnipotent. I don't even play D&D all that much. But this colossal display of idiocy: has forced me to respond in the name of all that is good and logical in the universe. If B ⊂ A then (B ∩ C) ⊂ (A ∩ C). P.S. If you try to argue that "whole apples" is not a subset of "apples", I shall reach through the Internet and punch you in the face with a fury that only an irked geek can unleash. P.P.S. YOU ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD. I loved that one. Dirty Cheater Pun Pun wins all initiative rolls, regardless of his opponents roll. He also is immune to damage and death and any effect he doesn't want to be affected by. He can also remove any creature from having existed as a free action. Which was so secret I had already mentioned it in the thread earlier. But Pun-Pun obviously can't do it, on account of it not being able to cast any magic, because the Mortiverse already prevents magic functioning anywhere due to the very fact of its existence. Pun-Pun also isn't aware of the spell's existence, due to it not knowing every spell. Then there's also the problem that the Mortiverse's Dead Zone is preventing Pun-Pun from using Manipulate Form to grant himself any abilities except the bare minimum of non-threatening ones in order to make the creature in question qualify as Pun-Pun. It doesn't matter. Without knowledge of the spell's existence, it can't replicate its effects. Good thing Pun-Pun has an infinite Knowledge check in all fields (which takes no action), and therefor knows every piece of information ever. Because the Knowledge skill is fun like that. Quote: Originally Posted by Buugipopuu View Post The same interpretation that allows Pun-Pun to give itself any ability gives the Mortiverse every ability at any point in time. The following is still an ability: Except that the Mortiverse has to encounter any ability. Pun-Pun can simply have any ability, regardless of it's prior or future existence. Manipulate Form is the far more open-ended mechanic, even with the backwards time logic you use. Bcuz koorecten a tippoo m@k3z ur argoomend tuffrr... lol. Seriously... It does. There are aleph-1 possible Epic Spells of DC aleph-0 or lower. Second: He only automatically succeeds on any knowledge check of DC aleph-0 or less, not any knowledge check. Being able to take a knowledge check with no action just means you can do aleph-0 of them in any finite time interval. You need to be considerably faster to be able to take aleph-1 of them. Thus there is no way Pun-Pun will make the knowledge check in a finite amount of time, because he can't sort through his own knowledge fast enough. Knowing which of the aleph-1 possible DC aleph-0 epic spells is the one needed is a DC aleph-1 Knowledge check, because there are that many to search through (remember that for any useful spell effect, there are infinitely more which replicate the effect but have a sequence of mitigating factors so retarded as to make the spell useless) which Pun-Pun can't make. REDUCTIO AD HITLERUM! HITLER! (Godwin's Law Counter reset to 0. Continue thread.) Firstly, because if Maniplate Form is not available, you are not defeating Pun-Pun. To be defeating Pun-Pun, you ahve to fight him post-ascension. Once you do, he already has every beneficial anything in the game. And there's still 7 more pages of this thread. Also, bring up a dictionary? Been there (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13957849&postcount=168), Done that (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13960372&postcount=174).
BillTheManiac 10-18-07, 04:44 PM	You find advanced mathematics reminiscent of "cowboys and indians"?
EjoThims 10-18-07, 04:48 PM	You find advanced mathematics reminiscent of "cowboys and indians"? ONly when Calculus is giving Algebra small pox blankets. :weep:
archerpwr 10-18-07, 05:00 PM	ONly when Calculus is giving Algebra small pox blankets. :weep: Naw man, this is above calculus. I'm taking Calc BC this year and have no idea about set theory.
Wintermute_ 10-18-07, 05:09 PM	You find advanced mathematics reminiscent of "cowboys and indians"? The manner in which it's being employed, yes.
CrimsonDeath 10-18-07, 06:11 PM	Naw man, this is above calculus. I'm taking Calc BC this year and have no idea about set theory. And ordinal infinities are some pretty advanced set theory. I've had two or three courses in college that were basically set theory wearing different masks, and none of them touched cardinality (except that one professor mentioned that there are more irrational numbers than rational numbers, although I don't quite buy the proof that was presented).
Buugipopuu 10-19-07, 12:58 PM	Buugipopuu is pretty good at this. So am I. Anyways, this is getting old 1. The "Pun-Pun" character contains infinite DvR 2. Pun-Pun can gain infinite DvR, through infinite DC epic spells 3. If Mortiverse prevents this, he is not killing Pun-Pun, but pre-Pun-Pun 4. With infinite DvR, Pun-Pun can do anything Mortiverse can. 5. Mortiverse can gain infinite DvR, through infinite DC epic spells. 6. With infinite DvR, Mortiverse can do anything Pun-Pun can. 7. It's a draw Any objections? Nope. Bored now.
BillTheManiac 10-19-07, 07:16 PM	Nope. Bored now. Also, I'm right, so it's a tie! Good game, guys!
Rustmonster 10-23-07, 02:22 PM	Without infinite loops the Mortiverse's stats are still all aleph-1 (completing its transfinite Divinity trick just the once, rather than aleph-1 times). The Mortiverse has every class feature. It's capable of any trick that uses class features, like the save game trick; I'm just choosing not to use Manipulate form-related tricks because that would be cheating. Said trick sucks at this level, because it relies on time-hopping a psicrystal which can be ganked. The Mortiverse does have infinite HD (and more HD shortly after) as soon as it takes one swift action to give itself DvR Infinity, and so gain Extra Level an infinite number of times with all of its spare Divine Ability slots. This is irrelevant for the purpose of Holy Word, since it also has Apostasy, which means it is immune to all alignment-based effects. So, manipulate form is cheating, while using a third party book where everything is in scientific notation and where every ability is basiclly "you can't hurt me, I can kill you without trying, I have infinite stats, you suck, I win" that, may I add, Pun-Pun seems to have no access to, is not? I do not have IH. But it sounds like the most boring, worthless suppliment that could exist. Numbers so gargantuan that they become meaningless. Abilities that offer no save and immediatly kill/dominate/negate abilities of everything. Abilties that allow you to never die, be hurt, be attacked, or have any status effect. Abilties that allow you to completly reshape all of existance or go back/forward in time. Abilties that let you see absolutly everything, everywhere, at any time in existance. It sounds more like the DM than an NPC. Just my two cents.
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-23-07, 03:20 PM	Hey, you do realise that the only things that have access to those abilities are sentient universes, don't you? tell me, when was the last time you ran an encounter with a universe? You should get more informed before making ignorant and judgemental statements like that
Wintermute_ 10-23-07, 03:26 PM	So, manipulate form is cheating, while using a third party book where everything is in scientific notation and where every ability is basiclly "you can't hurt me, I can kill you without trying, I have infinite stats, you suck, I win" that, may I add, Pun-Pun seems to have no access to, is not? I do not have IH. But it sounds like the most boring, worthless suppliment that could exist. Numbers so gargantuan that they become meaningless. Abilities that offer no save and immediatly kill/dominate/negate abilities of everything. Abilties that allow you to never die, be hurt, be attacked, or have any status effect. Abilties that allow you to completly reshape all of existance or go back/forward in time. Abilties that let you see absolutly everything, everywhere, at any time in existance. It sounds more like the DM than an NPC. Just my two cents. This is really an unfair representation of Ascension, given that the only things that have come up in this argument are pretty much Transcendental powers and above. Seeing as Transcendental powers are supposed to be only available to Demiurges (the beings a step above Overgods), they're supposed to be stupid powerful. These are the guys who can squash greater gods like bugs. Really, the majority of the book deals with regular deities (ie, greater gods and below), with the Overgod and above stuff being more of a footnote then the real meat of the book. The lowest-level template, the Prophet (or maybe Disciple, I get them mixed up), is meant for less-then-20th level characters. Basically, you're judging the entire book based only on the most powerful stuff in it, stuff that the author said was really just for fun rather then serious material. It's like saying all of D&D is broken as hell by only looking at Pun-Pun. In short, you should probably not make sweeping judgments about things you're not at all familiar with.
BillTheManiac 10-24-07, 10:37 AM	This is really an unfair representation of Ascension, given that the only things that have come up in this argument are pretty much Transcendental powers and above. Seeing as Transcendental powers are supposed to be only available to Demiurges (the beings a step above Overgods), they're supposed to be stupid powerful. These are the guys who can squash greater gods like bugs. Really, the majority of the book deals with regular deities (ie, greater gods and below), with the Overgod and above stuff being more of a footnote then the real meat of the book. The lowest-level template, the Prophet (or maybe Disciple, I get them mixed up), is meant for less-then-20th level characters. Basically, you're judging the entire book based only on the most powerful stuff in it, stuff that the author said was really just for fun rather then serious material. It's like saying all of D&D is broken as hell by only looking at Pun-Pun. In short, you should probably not make sweeping judgments about things you're not at all familiar with. This is what I'm saying. There shouldn't be any rules for making play break down at high levels. Play breaks down at high levels on its own. It doesn't need new rules to help it. Instead, designers should concentrate on making play stay sane at low epic, and then cap levels so it won't get too insane. Also, I think he thought manipulate form was cheating because that would be making his character too much like Pun-Pun. Hey, you do realise that the only things that have access to those abilities are sentient universes, don't you? tell me, when was the last time you ran an encounter with a universe? You should get more informed before making ignorant and judgemental statements like that When was the last time YOU ran a fight with a sentient universe? I'm guessing never. There's no point in making rules for sentient universes. It never improves any actual play, ever.
Wintermute_ 10-24-07, 01:01 PM	When was the last time YOU ran a fight with a sentient universe? I'm guessing never. There's no point in making rules for sentient universes. It never improves any actual play, ever. Unless, of course, I want to run a campaign involving sentient universes.
BillTheManiac 10-24-07, 04:10 PM	Unless, of course, I want to run a campaign involving sentient universes. If so you have several options 1. DM fiat. The sentient universe is a plot device, once PCs go through the necessary steps they can get what they want, otherwise they can't. 2. IH-style rules for sentient universes. This will have the exact same effect. I'm pretty sure you could have an exact chain of all possible combinations of high-levl IH abilities with not very many more results then A wins, B wins, or compare their ordinary abilities as normal. Just now, someone has to go through the work of writing the rules. 3. Non-IH-style rules for sentient universes. This is if you want to have reasonable universe-on-universe fights. The only reasonable ones are 1 and 3.
Wintermute_ 10-24-07, 04:59 PM	If so you have several options 1. DM fiat. The sentient universe is a plot device, once PCs go through the necessary steps they can get what they want, otherwise they can't. Which works fine in many cases, but isn't really relevant here. 2. IH-style rules for sentient universes. This will have the exact same effect. I'm pretty sure you could have an exact chain of all possible combinations of high-levl IH abilities with not very many more results then A wins, B wins, or compare their ordinary abilities as normal. Just now, someone has to go through the work of writing the rules. 3. Non-IH-style rules for sentient universes. This is if you want to have reasonable universe-on-universe fights. The only reasonable ones are 1 and 3. Wait, what? The fact that some abilities trump some other abilities is hardly unique to the Immortal's Handbook, unless you consider the fact that death ward beats finger of death and enervation unreasonable. D&D is full of this kind of stuff. Hell, it's pretty much the basis of the combat system. An attack roll of 18 beats and AC of 17, a saving throw of 21 beats a DC 15, etc. The entire point of the IH system is to provide rules so that beings like sentient universes can interact meaningfully, and I think it works pretty well for that. Yeah, it breaks down if you've got something like the Mortiverse which has all the abilities in the book, but the vast majority of Time Lords will only have a couple Omnific abilities, not the 20+ Mortiverse has. Seriously, do you have a better idea for a rules-set to model ultimate cosmic power or are you just complaining about one you haven't read?
Witch 10-24-07, 05:34 PM	In all honesty, while I dislike the uncapped nature of UK's deific system, I most definitely find that his approach is far less boring, less imbalanced and cooler than the standard divine system. If anything, the transcendent abilities just provide levels of cool that aren't actually meant for play all that often. But his epic feats, divine abilities, and cosmic abilities, all provide very interesting playable effects.
CrimsonDeath 10-24-07, 06:21 PM	The entire point of the IH system is to provide rules so that beings like sentient universes can interact meaningfully, and I think it works pretty well for that. Yeah, it breaks down if you've got something like the Mortiverse which has all the abilities in the book, but the vast majority of Time Lords will only have a couple Omnific abilities, not the 20+ Mortiverse has. As I understand, they only need two: The one that lets you use any ability you ever have or ever will "encounter", and the one that stops your opponent from using any ability he has.
Rustmonster 10-24-07, 09:32 PM	In short, you should probably not make sweeping judgments about things you're not at all familiar with. I feel I shouldn't be left out of a discussion because I do not have an obscure third-party splatbook.
Wintermute_ 10-24-07, 10:40 PM	I feel I shouldn't be left out of a discussion because I do not have an obscure third-party splatbook. Considering it's a discussion about (or close enough) that splatbook, that's sort of an unreasonable emotion. Besides, I didn't say you shouldn't discuss it, I said you shouldn't pass judgment on the it.
Rustmonster 10-25-07, 09:27 AM	Considering it's a discussion about (or close enough) that splatbook, that's sort of an unreasonable emotion. Besides, I didn't say you shouldn't discuss it, I said you shouldn't pass judgment on the it. Fair enough. But from what I've heard in this thread and others about this book, that is my opinion. Looking at Morti. He is invincible. He can do anything he wants, to anyone he wants at any time. That does not sound fun. He is a plot device. He does not need stats when he basiclly has all the powers of a DM. Also, I have heard of ability types (along the lines of ex, su, sp) that no one but gods/universes/universe monsters can aquire. If everything in the book is basiclly on deity level, then it just seems like overkill. I may be wrong. Maybe not EVRYTHING in the book is a god. But that's just how it appears. (Any information that can clear these things up would be appretiated)
BillTheManiac 10-25-07, 12:18 PM	Which works fine in many cases, but isn't really relevant here. Wait, what? The fact that some abilities trump some other abilities is hardly unique to the Immortal's Handbook, unless you consider the fact that death ward beats finger of death and enervation unreasonable. D&D is full of this kind of stuff. Hell, it's pretty much the basis of the combat system. An attack roll of 18 beats and AC of 17, a saving throw of 21 beats a DC 15, etc. The entire point of the IH system is to provide rules so that beings like sentient universes can interact meaningfully, and I think it works pretty well for that. Yeah, it breaks down if you've got something like the Mortiverse which has all the abilities in the book, but the vast majority of Time Lords will only have a couple Omnific abilities, not the 20+ Mortiverse has.Seriously, do you have a better idea for a rules-set to model ultimate cosmic power or are you just complaining about one you haven't read? You do not need a rules set to model ultimate cosmic power. Oh, and this is my understanding of IH, correct me if I'm wrong: They have many levels of scaling abilities, for play starting at level 21 and ending at level (whatever the Mortiverse's CR is). I have no clue about the earlier stuff, although I hear it's quite cool. However the higher level stuff is not intended for actual play. There should not be rules for stuff not intended for actual play.
Wintermute_ 10-25-07, 02:58 PM	Fair enough. But from what I've heard in this thread and others about this book, that is my opinion. Looking at Morti. He is invincible. He can do anything he wants, to anyone he wants at any time. That does not sound fun. He is a plot device. He does not need stats when he basiclly has all the powers of a DM. Also, I have heard of ability types (along the lines of ex, su, sp) that no one but gods/universes/universe monsters can aquire. If everything in the book is basiclly on deity level, then it just seems like overkill. I may be wrong. Maybe not EVRYTHING in the book is a god. But that's just how it appears. (Any information that can clear these things up would be appretiated) It's a book about playing deities, so it's to be expected that the vast majority of the book is about gods.