Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BillTheManiac 09-30-07, 08:42 PM	A first level kobold paladin achieves ascension on round 1 billion of the universe. One hundred rounds later, Mortiverse appears in Pun-Pun's multiverse. All of the planes in Pun-Pun's multiverse were completely unfettered by Mortiverse's influence. Pun-Pun is barred from IH material. Mortiverse is barred from anything that has appeared on the TO boards. These are the only creatures that shall be referred to as "Pun-Pun" and "Mortiverse" for this competition. Ordinal mathematics is used, rather then cardinal, because it makes more sense then IH. The loser, if decided, gains access to the other's material and then they duke it out again.
SokenzanMarauder 09-30-07, 08:47 PM	While I will have no part in this little debate. I wish to say thank-you for trying to bring sanity to this subject as I find it somewhat interesting (and the last thread was getting incredibly stupid). -Gene
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 08:48 PM	Thread #3, huh? :) So, is Pun Pun allowed to duplicate IH abilities through manipualte form, or is that what's he's banned from. Also, what Divine Rank system is being used? Hopefully this can finally get resolved.:)
Sagetim 09-30-07, 08:54 PM	A first level kobold paladin achieves ascension on round 1 billion of the universe. One hundred rounds later, Mortiverse appears in Pun-Pun's multiverse. All of the planes in Pun-Pun's multiverse were completely unfettered by Mortiverse's influence. Pun-Pun is barred from IH material. Mortiverse is barred from anything that has appeared on the TO boards. These are the only creatures that shall be referred to as "Pun-Pun" and "Mortiverse" for this competition. Ordinal mathematics is used, rather then cardinal, because it makes more sense then IH. The loser, if decided, gains access to the other's material and then they duke it out again. awww, you had to bring rules into the room full of monkies throwing stuff at eachother...there goes my monkey thread of amusement :P
BillTheManiac 09-30-07, 09:22 PM	awww, you had to bring rules into the room full of monkies throwing stuff at eachother...there goes my monkey thread of amusement :P Your monkey thread still exists, and is going strong. Manipulate Form can only duplicate abilities in the books, as does anything Mortiverse has with similar wording. Pun-Pun has infinite WoTC DvR, while Mortiverse however much IH DvR he has. Whenever they conflict directly (i.e., cause paradox), use the IH system if possible, counting WoTC DvR as IH DvR. Mortiverse cannot win unless he can disguise the future from Pun-Pun's divine sense, because Pun-Pun could just draw the battle with a bubble.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-30-07, 09:38 PM	This has gotten so out of hand, its absolutly laughable. (hence: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ) Seriously this is the most entertaining debate that I've read in a long, long time. It seems like nothing gets people more riled up over here then saying that something can beat Pun Pun:)
archerpwr 09-30-07, 10:19 PM	This has gotten so out of hand, its absolutly laughable. (hence: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ) Seriously this is the most entertaining debate that I've read in a long, long time. It seems like nothing gets people more riled up over here then saying that something can beat Pun Pun:) Well, that's because pun pun can copy anyone else's abilities. Only DM fiat (abrogate) is greater than pun pun.
BillTheManiac 10-01-07, 07:14 AM	I think it's funny no one is arguing in this thread.
SokenzanMarauder 10-01-07, 02:34 PM	I think it's funny no one is arguing in this thread. It's because you have to think here, instead of just saying "I win, you lose!" Shows just how pathetic some folks are, eh? -Gene
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-01-07, 02:42 PM	Hopefully the thread title will keep anyone from spout aleph-apleph-0 or whatever around here, that was getting seriosuly annoying to read
SokenzanMarauder 10-01-07, 03:05 PM	Hopefully the thread title will keep anyone from spout aleph-apleph-0 or whatever around here, that was getting seriosuly annoying to read Indeed it was. It's turned into a ******* contest, sadly. It was going well until the guy that called you a 'defeatist' popped in; I'd hopped the Mortiverse would win until he started backing it. Now I'm all for the pun-meister. -Gene
BillTheManiac 10-01-07, 03:18 PM	Indeed it was. It's turned into a ******* contest, sadly. It was going well until the guy that called you a 'defeatist' popped in; I'd hopped the Mortiverse would win until he started backing it. Now I'm all for the pun-meister. -Gene Buugipopuu. Yeah, PP deserves to win because Mortiverse cheats.
SokenzanMarauder 10-01-07, 03:22 PM	Buugipopuu. Yeah, PP deserves to win because Mortiverse cheats. Yup. -Gene
RadicalTaoist 10-01-07, 03:56 PM	I'm still working on my understanding of how their decisions interact with each other after poor Father Time has been brutally molested, so can't talk quite yet.
Buugipopuu 10-03-07, 01:31 PM	This just keeps getting better and better. This one's even more of a curbstomp than the last one. Even without cardinal mathematics, the Mortiverse's divine rank is strictly greater than Pun-Pun's since its DvR is equal to its own + that of every being in the Universe, including Pun-Pun's. The Mortiverse also has the double Race: Kobolds (and every other race for that matter) portfolio, meaning Pun-Pun is automatically dominated. The Mortiverse then plays puppeteer with Pun-Pun, having him go about his normal actions but steadily steer him in the direction of getting bored of life and committing suicide. Thanks to having +Infinity to Perform (The Entire Universe), Pun-Pun's portfolio sense doesn't see anything out of the ordinary about this, and takes no steps to prevent it.
PrinceOfTheVoid 10-03-07, 07:02 PM	So, is Pun Pun allowed to make up his own abilities in this challenge?
Taeldrin Laesrash 10-03-07, 07:05 PM	By the text of Manipulate Form, yes.
robertliguori 10-03-07, 08:14 PM	This just keeps getting better and better. This one's even more of a curbstomp than the last one. Even without cardinal mathematics, the Mortiverse's divine rank is strictly greater than Pun-Pun's since its DvR is equal to its own + that of every being in the Universe, including Pun-Pun's. The Mortiverse also has the double Race: Kobolds (and every other race for that matter) portfolio, meaning Pun-Pun is automatically dominated. The Mortiverse then plays puppeteer with Pun-Pun, having him go about his normal actions but steadily steer him in the direction of getting bored of life and committing suicide. Thanks to having +Infinity to Perform (The Entire Universe), Pun-Pun's portfolio sense doesn't see anything out of the ordinary about this, and takes no steps to prevent it. Pun-Pun's been Aleax'd. He can't be stopped, damaged, or hindered by anything that isn't his singular enemy, and he can have multiple exclusive singular enemies. Now, the Mortiverse can manipulate the universe that isn't Pun-Pun into achieving a similar effect, but if N would damage or hinder Pun-Pun, then it doesn't happen, for all N. If nothing else, I am infinitely amused by these threads simply because they prove that adding a set of rules to D&D which require you to use scientific notation to calculate your attributes does not noticeably count as power creep. Thank you, FR.
BillTheManiac 10-04-07, 06:58 AM	This just keeps getting better and better. This one's even more of a curbstomp than the last one. Even without cardinal mathematics, the Mortiverse's divine rank is strictly greater than Pun-Pun's since its DvR is equal to its own + that of every being in the Universe, including Pun-Pun's. why? The Mortiverse also has the double Race: Kobolds (and every other race for that matter) portfolio, meaning Pun-Pun is automatically dominated. Pun-Pun has some pretty nasty stuff to counter that, though. Ooh! Divine Aura - Daze. Because Pun-Pun's stats are higher than mortiverse's, he takes no actions, which includes commanding Pun-Pun to kill himself. Then Iron Heart Surge and kil Mortiverse. The Mortiverse then plays puppeteer with Pun-Pun, having him go about his normal actions but steadily steer him in the direction of getting bored of life and committing suicide. Thanks to having +Infinity to Perform (The Entire Universe), Pun-Pun's portfolio sense doesn't see anything out of the ordinary about this, and takes no steps to prevent it. I don't think The Entire Universe is listed as an option in the Perform Skill. Thanks to having +Infinity to Spot, which gets around Disguise checks, which is really what you're doing here, Pun-Pun sees through it.
Buugipopuu 10-04-07, 08:01 AM	Pun-Pun's been Aleax'd. He can't be stopped, damaged, or hindered by anything that isn't his singular enemy, and he can have multiple exclusive singular enemies. Now, the Mortiverse can manipulate the universe that isn't Pun-Pun into achieving a similar effect, but if N would damage or hinder Pun-Pun, then it doesn't happen, for all N. Being dominated and then forced to continue with your life doesn't damage, stop or hinder you. In fact, you wouldn't even notice. If the manipulation is subtle enough that Pun-Pun's portfolio sense doesn't think it out of the ordinary, then it's going to be subtle enough that Pun-Pun doesn't perceive any of the effects as damage or hinderance. why? The Absolute Omnific Ability. Add the Divine Ranks of every creature in your aura to your own. Pun-Pun has some pretty nasty stuff to counter that, though. Ooh! Divine Aura - Daze. Because Pun-Pun's stats are higher than mortiverse's, he takes no actions, which includes commanding Pun-Pun to kill himself. Then Iron Heart Surge and kil Mortiverse. Does nothing, for no less than five reasons. The effects can be resisted with a Will save, and the Mortiverse can never fail a will save (Transalient Will). Pun-Pun's aura only extends 1 mile/rank, which means it just fills the plane he occupies. The Mortiverse's aura extends from one side of the Universe to the other, so the Mortiverse can be on another plane and still affect Pun-Pun with its aura while remaining out of range of Pun-Pun's aura. Daze is also a mind affecting effect, which the Mortiverse is immune to. On top of this, only the aura of the being of higher Divine Rank affects an area when two overlap, which is the Mortverse's, because its DvR is strictly greater than Pun-Pun's. I am also curious as to how you can claim the Mortiverse's stats are lower than Pun-Pun's. The Mortiverse's ability scores are strictly greater than Pun-Pun's. It has Total [Ability Score] for all ability scores. It may choose any opponent within sight (Cosmic Conciousness + Omnispective means it can see everywhere) and add its ability score to its own. No matter how high Pun-Pun raises his ability scores, the Mortiverse always has more than that. I don't think The Entire Universe is listed as an option in the Perform Skill. Thanks to having +Infinity to Spot, which gets around Disguise checks, which is really what you're doing here, Pun-Pun sees through it. It's probably a subset of Act. The options listed are only suggested means of performance after all. The Mortiverse's skill checks will always be higher than Pun-Pun's, thanks to Total [Ability Score] and Absolute, so Pun-Pun can't possibly make the opposed roll. It also uses the worst possible roll for it, while the Mortiverse uses the best possible roll, but that's only a difference between +1 and +20.
kreesteeyan 10-04-07, 08:16 AM	Any pro-Pun Pun here who has IH?
Callix 10-04-07, 08:38 AM	Being dominated and then forced to continue with your life doesn't damage, stop or hinder you. In fact, you wouldn't even notice. If the manipulation is subtle enough that Pun-Pun's portfolio sense doesn't think it out of the ordinary, then it's going to be subtle enough that Pun-Pun doesn't perceive any of the effects as damage or hinderance. Pun-Pun's sole purpose in life is to kill Bob the Tanner and the Mortiverse. He has been created by a god (at least theoretically) specifically in order to destroy Bob and the Mortiverse, and cannot be impeded by anyone not both Bob and the Mortiverse. The Mortiverse is not Bob. If he can become Bob, Pun-Pun can also add any number of Singular Enemies at will, including Pun-Pun. The Absolute Omnific Ability. Add the Divine Ranks of every creature in your aura to your own. Nifty. Still, aleph-null + x = aleph-null, doesn't it? Does nothing, for no less than five reasons. The effects can be resisted with a Will save, and the Mortiverse can never fail a will save (Transalient Will). Pun-Pun's aura only extends 1 mile/rank, which means it just fills the plane he occupies. The Mortiverse's aura extends from one side of the Universe to the other, so the Mortiverse can be on another plane and still affect Pun-Pun with its aura while remaining out of range of Pun-Pun's aura. Daze is also a mind affecting effect, which the Mortiverse is immune to. On top of this, only the aura of the being of higher Divine Rank affects an area when two overlap, which is the Mortverse's, because . Again, nifty. There goes that idea... I am also curious as to how you can claim the Mortiverse's stats are lower than Pun-Pun's. The Mortiverse's ability scores are strictly greater than Pun-Pun's. It has Total [Ability Score] for all ability scores. It may choose any opponent within sight (Cosmic Conciousness + Omnispective means it can see everywhere) and add its ability score to its own. No matter how high Pun-Pun raises his ability scores, the Mortiverse always has more than that. Pun-Pun's ability scores are all aleph-null (and yes, this is possible within a reasonable amount of time. No time, to be precise. See my earlier post on the Fate Link Triangle and Shambling Mounds) as a base stat. If Pun-Pun can get initiative on the Mortiverse, he then turnjacks the Mortiverse, never giving it the chance to claim any of his ability scores. Finally, neither Pun-Pun nor the Mortiverse can come into existence in either's "local" universe. Pun-Pun is a non-starter if the Mortiverse smites anyone who summons Pazuzu, or abuses Candles of Invocation. Equally, if Pun-Pun uses the Monty time trick, he can insert himself at the beginning of the multiverse at his full power, and prevent the Mortiverse from gaining power. It's probably a subset of Act. The options listed are only suggested means of performance after all. It doesn't matter if Pun-Pun doesn't realise he's being deterred. If the effect is to deter him, it doesn't work. That's what Singular Enemy means. The Mortiverse's skill checks will always be higher than Pun-Pun's, thanks to Total [Ability Score] and Absolute, so Pun-Pun can't possibly make the opposed roll. It also uses the worst possible roll for it, while the Mortiverse uses the best possible roll, but that's only a difference between +1 and +20. Why will the Mortiverse's skill checks be higher? Pun-Pun has to start the challenge outside the Mortiverse's sphere of influence, just as the Mortiverse must start in a world without an ascended and t=0 inserted (love those Far Realms time traits) Pun-Pun. Total [Ability] requires your turn to come up. If Pun-Pun wins initiative, the Mortiverse's turn never comes up. Resolving the Supreme Initiative Divine Rank issues is tricky, but if Pun-Pun can get his hands on an Absolute... infinite divine ranks for everyone! (Affinity Field. So many applications.)
Buugipopuu 10-04-07, 08:58 AM	Pun-Pun's sole purpose in life is to kill Bob the Tanner and the Mortiverse. He has been created by a god (at least theoretically) specifically in order to destroy Bob and the Mortiverse, and cannot be impeded by anyone not both Bob and the Mortiverse. The Mortiverse is not Bob. If he can become Bob, Pun-Pun can also add any number of Singular Enemies at will, including Pun-Pun. Which is fine, because no hinderance is going to take place. Nifty. Gotta get myself one of those. Pun-Pun will find a way. Again, nifty. There goes that idea... No he won't. He's barred from using IH material, it says so in the OP. Pun-Pun's ability scores are all aleph-null (and yes, this is possible within a reasonable amount of time. No time, to be precise. See my earlier post on the Fate Link Triangle and Shambling Mounds) as a base stat. If Pun-Pun can get initiative on the Mortiverse, he then turnjacks the Mortiverse, never giving it the chance to claim any of his ability scores. Finally, neither Pun-Pun nor the Mortiverse can come into existence in either's "local" universe. Pun-Pun is a non-starter if the Mortiverse smites anyone who summons Pazuzu, or abuses Candles of Invocation. Equally, if Pun-Pun uses the Monty time trick, he can insert himself at the beginning of the multiverse at his full power, and prevent the Mortiverse from gaining power. The Mortiverse always goes first. Perfect Initiative. No first turn for you. Also Slipstream, so no time travel tricks by Pun-Pun. There's nothing stopping the Mortiverse from using time travel against Pun-Pun though, it's just not needed. It doesn't matter if Pun-Pun doesn't realise he's being deterred. If the effect is to deter him, it doesn't work. That's what Singular Enemy means. How does the ability even determine if he's being damaged then? There are any number of situations where is beneficial to damage yourself, one of which is listed in this thread, and just as many where being healed would be unhelpful. The only way the criteria could possibly work is if it were in the opinion of something, and if it's something's opinion, it can be bluffed. Why will the Mortiverse's skill checks be higher? Pun-Pun has to start the challenge outside the Mortiverse's sphere of influence, just as the Mortiverse must start in a world without an ascended and t=0 inserted (love those Far Realms time traits) Pun-Pun. Total [Ability] requires your turn to come up. If Pun-Pun wins initiative, the Mortiverse's turn never comes up. Resolving the Supreme Initiative Divine Rank issues is tricky, but if Pun-Pun can get his hands on an Absolute... infinite divine ranks for everyone! (Affinity Field. So many applications.) Pun-Pun only has Supreme Initiative, which means you go first against beings of lower Divine Rank. The Mortiverse has Perfect Initiative, which means you go first against everything. The Mortiverse automatically wins initiative. This is irrelevant however, as Pun-Pun can't get Absolute, and so would go second even if the Mortiverse only had Supreme Initiative.
Callix 10-04-07, 09:13 AM	Sorry about the new rules mistake. Hurried post. Please ignore anything about duplicating the Mortiverse's tricks (although duplicating his opponents has alawys been Pun-Pun's first and often best tactic). With the Time Travel, we come to an issue with cosmology: whose Far Realms do we have? If we use the D&D standard Realms, Pun-Pun can use the Monty trick to jump to any moment in material time he chooses, bypassing any time-travel restrictions, because he's using simple planar travel that's connected to a random point in Material time (the Monty, having been created in the Far Realms, is considered a native of that plane for its time trait). He finds a portal he likes, nests a few Temporal Accelerations, then runs out and novas the Mortiverse. Even with Perfect Initiative, Pun-Pun can still get a surprise round, and one action is enough for either of these boys. If you get the IH Far Realms, which have frankly been neutered, then it gets trickier. With no way to duplicate the Mortiverse's abilities within the constraints of the challenge, and no access to most time tricks, all he can do is set up a "save game" before the Mortiverse gets here, then try to bubble out eternity for a draw. If it fails, he "reloads" and tries another type of bubble.
Buugipopuu 10-04-07, 09:34 AM	If we use the D&D standard Realms, Pun-Pun can use the Monty trick to jump to any moment in material time he chooses, bypassing any time-travel restrictions, because he's using simple planar travel that's connected to a random point in Material time (the Monty, having been created in the Far Realms, is considered a native of that plane for its time trait). He finds a portal he likes, nests a few Temporal Accelerations, then runs out and novas the Mortiverse. Even with Perfect Initiative, Pun-Pun can still get a surprise round, and one action is enough for either of these boys. The Mortiverse has Sixth Sense. It can't be surprised. If you get the IH Far Realms, which have frankly been neutered, then it gets trickier. With no way to duplicate the Mortiverse's abilities within the constraints of the challenge, and no access to most time tricks, all he can do is set up a "save game" before the Mortiverse gets here, then try to bubble out eternity for a draw. If it fails, he "reloads" and tries another type of bubble. The save game trick is relatively fragile IIRC. It relies on someone not being able to gank the psicrystal as it comes out of its time hop, or something like that. Having someone who can see everywhere in space and see the future renders it lacking in utility.
BillTheManiac 10-04-07, 12:30 PM	2 Clarifications: We're using ordinal math. Pun-Pun still has his Far Realms. 1. Pun-Pun can see the future. 2. Pun-Pun originally had X, Mortiverse originally had Y. Now Mortiverse has Y+X. 3. Pun-Pun can hit a Jovoc/Apocalypse Swarm/various spells bomb, dealing it X/2 damage, then the loop upping that to w(X/2), so he gets +w(X/2) to all skill checks. 4. Pun-Pun sees through the deception 5. Pun-Pun bubbles, drawing the battle. 6. Pun-Pun gives himself a set of abilities that override everything the Mortiverse has. 7. ????????? 8. Profit!
Paradox_of_Life 10-04-07, 02:56 PM	PP can give himself infinite abilities in a negligable amount of time. PP researches a spell that overides Mort's immunities and abilities, while simultaniously giving him Mortiversus DvR +pi, allowing him to bypass DvR restrictions. Using infinite actions per round, he goes nova. Bye Mortiverse.
Bauglir 10-04-07, 07:44 PM	If we're limited to giving Pun-Pun abilities that actually exist that aren't in IH, he probably does lose. If he can give himself any ability that does not appear in the IH, he wins, because he can make up abilities that are superior. However, this weakens only the Mortiverse, as Pun-Pun's best trick works and its does not. Might not be considered fair.
robertliguori 10-04-07, 08:09 PM	The Mortiverse has Absolute Omnific. The Mortiverse's DvR is therefore equal to its own inherent DvR plus the DvR of any entities in range. All entities in the local cosmos are in range of the Mortiverse's ability. The Mortiverse's DvR therefore greater than the Mortiverse's DvR, and therefore not equal to itself, and therefore not a number. Ergo, the Mortiverse has no DvR. It is demonstrated, as they say.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-04-07, 10:47 PM	Pun-Pun's ability to grant himself new abilities probably does overcome Mortiverse. That 'Manipulate Form' ability does allow for designer abilities, which means that it's within his rights to write create a power that says, something to the effect of: "I Win, V2 (Ex). Pun Pun always goes first, is only effected by what he wants to be effected by, never takes damage, unless he voluntarily decides to do so. Furthermore, 'I win, V2' is to be considered supreme in regards any conflict--other effects that 'automatically succeed' or somehow 'negate all abilities or defenses' are still beaten by I win V2. I Win V2 is restricted to Pun-Pun, and can't be copied by any other creature, entity or deity, irregardless of their powers. Finally, all of the above is an extraordinary ability"
RadicalTaoist 10-04-07, 11:18 PM	I'd like to reissue my request that the debate takes place in a universe in which the Mortiverse has yet to reach (because if Morty reaches and scrubs every universe then there's no challenge). Wiping Pun-Pun from every possible universe is like wiping Pun-Pun out before he ascends. There's only significance to this whole thing if we put an Ascended Pun-Pun on the table, and if Morty has conquered everything, that just means Pun-Pun ascends within Morty and gets a job as Overcosmic Assistant Manager. Pointless.
BillTheManiac 10-05-07, 07:02 AM	I'd like to reissue my request that the debate takes place in a universe in which the Mortiverse has yet to reach (because if Morty reaches and scrubs every universe then there's no challenge). Wiping Pun-Pun from every possible universe is like wiping Pun-Pun out before he ascends. There's only significance to this whole thing if we put an Ascended Pun-Pun on the table, and if Morty has conquered everything, that just means Pun-Pun ascends within Morty and gets a job as Overcosmic Assistant Manager. Pointless. That's how the debate works, yeah.
Buugipopuu 10-05-07, 02:14 PM	If we're limited to giving Pun-Pun abilities that actually exist that aren't in IH, he probably does lose. If he can give himself any ability that does not appear in the IH, he wins, because he can make up abilities that are superior. However, this weakens only the Mortiverse, as Pun-Pun's best trick works and its does not. Might not be considered fair. In order for the restriction "Pun-Pun is barred from IH material." to be worthy of mention, Pun-Pun must be incapable of creating new abilities. If he were capable, he could just create an ability called IH Ability', which is identical in every way to IH Ability, with the exception of that it has some text at the end, saying "This ability is not from the IH". By mentioning the above restriction, the restriction to abilities that actually exist in published material is implied. 2 Clarifications: We're using ordinal math. Pun-Pun still has his Far Realms. 1. Pun-Pun can see the future. 2. Pun-Pun originally had X, Mortiverse originally had Y. Now Mortiverse has Y+X. 3. Pun-Pun can hit a Jovoc/Apocalypse Swarm/various spells bomb, dealing it X/2 damage, then the loop upping that to w(X/2), so he gets +w(X/2) to all skill checks. 4. Pun-Pun sees through the deception 5. Pun-Pun bubbles, drawing the battle. 6. Pun-Pun gives himself a set of abilities that override everything the Mortiverse has. 7. ????????? 8. Profit! That's a closed time-like loop, and so can't happen, as that would be undermining the Mortiverse through time travel, which can't be done, because the Mortiverse has Slipstream. The Mortiverse's future-sense abilities specifically say they function despite Slipstream, while Pun-Pun's portfolio sense doesn't mention anything that would suggest it overcomes Slipstream. The Mortiverse has Absolute Omnific. The Mortiverse's DvR is therefore equal to its own inherent DvR plus the DvR of any entities in range. All entities in the local cosmos are in range of the Mortiverse's ability. The Mortiverse's DvR therefore greater than the Mortiverse's DvR, and therefore not equal to itself, and therefore not a number. Ergo, the Mortiverse has no DvR. Read the text of the ability again. It only adds the DvR of "challengers or enemies". So you don't add your own DvR to itself. The Mortiverse does of course challenge everyone except itself, just not in a way that anyone can hear.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-05-07, 04:20 PM	"The thread with sane semantics" Oh my. Brings back the good ol' days of Blingy the Psicrystal. When dealing with the Cult of Pazuzu, "sane" is not an option. Pun-pun, on the other hand, does just fine.
BillTheManiac 10-05-07, 05:40 PM	In order for the restriction "Pun-Pun is barred from IH material." to be worthy of mention, Pun-Pun must be incapable of creating new abilities. If he were capable, he could just create an ability called IH Ability', which is identical in every way to IH Ability, with the exception of that it has some text at the end, saying "This ability is not from the IH". By mentioning the above restriction, the restriction to abilities that actually exist in published material is implied. For now, let's assume Pun-Pun can't make up stuff. Neither can Mortiverse, because he has the "encountered" restriction. That's a closed time-like loop, and so can't happen, as that would be undermining the Mortiverse through time travel, which can't be done, because the Mortiverse has Slipstream. The Mortiverse's future-sense abilities specifically say they function despite Slipstream, while Pun-Pun's portfolio sense doesn't mention anything that would suggest it overcomes Slipstream. How is it time travel to not travel through time? I always thought time travel was, you know, traveling in the time stream, not just standing in one place. Pun-Pun's says it can only be blocked by deities of equal DvR or greater, so the question is who has the higher DvR. I'm not sure how Mortiverse could increase his DvR, but I wonder if he could beat Xw^3. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. Read the text of the ability again. It only adds the DvR of "challengers or enemies". So you don't add your own DvR to itself. The Mortiverse does of course challenge everyone except itself, just not in a way that anyone can here. YOU SAID HERE INSTEAD OF HEAR!!!! YOUR GRAMMAR IS TERRIBLE AND AWFUL!!! Luckily he can't challenge people in the past.
Buugipopuu 10-06-07, 08:59 PM	How is it time travel to not travel through time? I always thought time travel was, you know, traveling in the time stream, not just standing in one place. The IH definition of time travel includes methods of obtaining future knowledge, which is why any method of precognition has to specifically overcome Slipstream to be of use. Effectively, it's the information that is time traveling. Pun-Pun's says it can only be blocked by deities of equal DvR or greater, so the question is who has the higher DvR. I'm not sure how Mortiverse could increase his DvR, but I wonder if he could beat Xw^3. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. You know, he still has Absolute, so his DvR is still strictly greater than Pun-Pun's. The sense also isn't being blocked, it just can't be used to set up any closed time-like loops that would undermine the Mortiverse. YOU SAID HERE INSTEAD OF HEAR!!!! YOUR GRAMMAR IS TERRIBLE AND AWFUL!!! Fixed. Luckily he can't challenge people in the past. I fail to see how this is relevant.
BillTheManiac 10-06-07, 09:11 PM	The IH definition of time travel includes methods of obtaining future knowledge, which is why any method of precognition has to specifically overcome Slipstream to be of use. Effectively, it's the information that is time traveling. Okay. Can Mortiverse veto Greater Celerity? You know, he still has Absolute, so his DvR is still strictly greater than Pun-Pun's. The sense also isn't being blocked, it just can't be used to set up any closed time-like loops that would undermine the Mortiverse. Wording? I fail to see how this is relevant. Because Mortiverse-of-the-future cannot challenge Pun-Pun and gain DvR from it.
Khan the Destroyer 10-07-07, 05:56 PM	I see the the consequences of (and reasoning behind) limiting Manipulate Form to already existing abilities. But Pun-Pun can also research Epic Spells at no cost (including time). He can also craft magic items, even artifacts, at no cost. Limitless potential with spells and artifacts can mean anything is possible. Also, why does initiative matter? I thought anyone could interrupt turns with Anicipatory Strike. Can we get some wording on these IH abilities as well? It'd be much nicer than simply taking someone's word that said ability does or doesn't do something. Not to say anyone is lying, but as an example, for the sake of argument, I posted the Manipulte Form ability text in the OP of the Pun-Pun thread exactly as typed in print so that anyone challenging the build could see it for themselves. That way, we all know what we're working with.
Buugipopuu 10-07-07, 08:55 PM	Okay. Can Mortiverse veto Greater Celerity? In many varied and exiting ways. It can just take control of all magic in the dimension in question and stop the spell from working when it doesn't want it to. It can drop a Manifestation with a permanent, infinite range, tenacious Ward against it into every plane simultaneously, preventing anyone from casting it. It can just stop all magic altogether with its Dead Zone, or change its portfolios (and hence the dimensions dominated) to move its Divine Realm into Pun-Pun's Universe, stopping all magic and/or temporal effects. Or it could use its Tenth Sense to read the future thoughts of everyone in the Universe and prepare to counterspell anyone who will even think about casting it. Wording? Text of Supremacy (actually more useful than Absolute, since it doesn't have the silly opponents/challengers restriction, and the DvR of all the other gods is insignificant): You can choose any being within the effect of your divine aura and you can add their divine bonus on top of yours. The being in question still retains its divine bonus. Note that Divine Bonus is effectively equivalent to Divine Rank in the IH, since the terms are used interchangeably (and U_K was never that precise with his terminology, since Divine Rank is also occasionally used to mean Divine Status, which is a different concept altogether). Because Mortiverse-of-the-future cannot challenge Pun-Pun and gain DvR from it. The Mortiverse-of-the-now can challenge Pun-Pun-of-the-now, and gain DvR from it. This puts the Mortiverse's DvR higher than all past iterations quite neatly. If Pun-Pun's DvR is constantly increasing as you say it is, Pun-Pun can never foresee a being with Absolute, because it's using a DvR higher than that of its future self, which in turn is higher than its own DvR. Petards and hoisting. I see the the consequences of (and reasoning behind) limiting Manipulate Form to already existing abilities. But Pun-Pun can also research Epic Spells at no cost (including time). He can also craft magic items, even artifacts, at no cost. Limitless potential with spells and artifacts can mean anything is possible. Epic Spells still need to be made according to the rules. There's a limited set of things you can do with them.
BillTheManiac 10-07-07, 09:09 PM	In many varied and exiting ways. It can just take control of all magic in the dimension in question and stop the spell from working when it doesn't want it to. It can drop a Manifestation with a permanent, infinite range, tenacious Ward against it into every plane simultaneously, preventing anyone from casting it. It can just stop all magic altogether with its Dead Zone, or change its portfolios (and hence the dimensions dominated) to move its Divine Realm into Pun-Pun's Universe, stopping all magic and/or temporal effects. Or it could use its Tenth Sense to read the future thoughts of everyone in the Universe and prepare to counterspell anyone who will even think about casting it. [QUPTE]Text of Supremacy (actually more useful than Absolute, since it doesn't have the silly opponents/challengers restriction, and the DvR of all the other gods is insignificant):[/QUOTE] OK. Note that Divine Bonus is effectively equivalent to Divine Rank in the IH, since the terms are used interchangeably (and U_K was never that precise with his terminology, since Divine Rank is also occasionally used to mean Divine Status, which is a different concept altogether). Alright. The Mortiverse-of-the-now can challenge Pun-Pun-of-the-now, and gain DvR from it. This puts the Mortiverse's DvR higher than all past iterations quite neatly. If Pun-Pun's DvR is constantly increasing as you say it is, Pun-Pun can never foresee a being with Absolute, because it's using a DvR higher than that of its future self, which in turn is higher than its own DvR. Petards and hoisting. But Pun-Pun can also reduce his DvR, by proxifying squirrels and killing them. Then Pun-Pun can oscillate his DvR constantly, making it huge for an infinitescimal (sp?) section of a round, then making it small for 100% of the round, then making it huge, etc. Clearly Mortiverse appears at a time when Pun-Pun has small DvR, as this is 100% of the round, so we don't have a multiple-state time-travel paradox. Therefore Pun-Pun can always foresee Mortiverse. Therefore he can always bubble and think. Epic Spells still need to be made according to the rules. There's a limited set of things you can do with them.[/QUOTE]
awaken_D_M_golem 10-08-07, 07:06 PM	ahem - from the OP of Morty The Mortiverse ... Outsider (Extraplanar) problematic Speed: Fly 84,442,493,010,000,000 ft (perfect) (16,888,498,600,000,000 squares) pun-pun's is infinity Space/Reach: 198,070,406,300,000,000,000,000,000,000 ft/198,070,406,300,000,000,000,000,000,000 ft pun-pun's is infinity, both Special Attacks: Alter reality, divine aura, entropic mastery, gravitic aura, omega pulse, portfolios, third death, time lord abilities, void gaze, vortex, wish pun-pun has infinity Special Qualities:pun-pun's is infinity Accretion, cosmic consciousness, cosmic firmament, DR 528,187,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000/- pun-pun passes this easily, elemental traits, evil eye, fast healing 792,281,625,000,000,000,000,000,000,070 pun-pun's is infinity pun-pun passes this easily, flight, generate spawn, hardness 1,500 pun-pun's is infinitypun-pun passes this easily, omnicompetent, regeneration # is ? / pun-pun's is infinitypun-pun passes this easily, rejuvenation, SR 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,27 0pun-pun's is infinitypun-pun passes this easily, time lord traits, transtemporal, undead traits Con - pun-pun's is infinity Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supernatural Transformation (wish), Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Death's Blessing, Reflective Spell Resistance, Epic Potency x528,187,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 pun-pun has infinity Environment: Outer Space pun-pun's is infinity Organization: Unique Challenge Rating: 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608 A Challenge Rating of 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608 + 4 should beat it. A Challenge Rating of 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608 + 10 should mop the floor with it and get no exp. Alignment: Neutral Evil problematic Mortiverse's mind-boggling density grants it 5,281,877,500,000,000,000,000,000,072 virtual size categories. Save DCs are infinite unless the infitie aspect is cancelled out. pun-pun is omnipresent. Accretion (Ex): Anyone striking the Mortiverse must make a DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091 Strength check to be able to retrieve their weapon (or appendage) from the entity’s surface following each and every attack. The DC is Strength-based. Divine Aura (Su): pun-pun is immune / has infinite anti-magic field Entropic Mastery (Ex): The damage dealt by the Mortiverse is permanent. A limited wish spell will heal 1 point of damage. A miracle or wish will heal 1 point of damage per level of the caster. Those slain by the Mortiverse are brought closer to the true nature of death and as such cannot be raised. However, they can be resurrected, albeit suffering a loss of 2 levels (from resurrection) or a loss of 1 level (from true resurrection). The Mortiverse destroys nonmagical matter with a touch. Magical items must make a Fortitude save (DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108) each time they touch, or are touched by, the Mortiverse or be destroyed. Anyone grappling with, or striking, the Mortiverse suffers permanent damage equal to the base dice their attack(s) would normally inflict. Evil Eye (Ex): Opponents of the Mortiverse suffer a -12 luck penalty to armor class, attack rolls, checks of any kind, damage rolls, DCs, initiative, saves, SR, and TR Furthermore, Mortiverse may choose the die results for all creatures within its divine aura. This effect has a range of 63,382,530,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,4 00 ft and there is no save. Flight (Ex): The Mortiverse does not fly; rather, it is not subject to gravity in the same way other creatures are. It can move in any direction through any medium, disintegrating any solid matter in its path. Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d1 0 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse. pun-pun is immune / has infinite anti-magic field Gravitic Aura (Ex): The astronomical mass of the Mortiverse causes great disturbances within the localized area. See the following table for effects based on proximity. The Fortitude save DC is Strength-based. The Mortiverse and its spawn are not subject to this effect. Radius pun-pun is out of radius Hp damage pun-pun is immune / has infinite DR Death save DC pun-pun is immune / has infinite save Unconsciousness save DC pun-pun is immune / has infinite save Stunning save DC pun-pun is immune / has infinite save Immunities (Ex): ability damage, ability drain, anything requiring a Fortitude save unless it affects objects, critical hits, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, fatigue, magic from this universe, mind-affecting effects, natural effects, non-epic magic, paralysis, permanent destruction, petrification, physical injury by matter from this universe, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding. Omega Pulse (Su): pun-pun is immune / has infinite anti-magic field Regeneration (Ex): The Mortiverse regrows severed limbs in 1d6 rounds, and it can reattach a severed limb instantly by holding it to the stump. Its fast healing continues to function even when it is brought below 0 hit points (at which point the Mortiverse becomes helpless instead of being destroyed). It can only be truly slain by reducing it below 0 hp and then using a wish or miracle, either of which must also bypass its spell resistance, to keep it dead. Rejuvenation (Su): pun-pun is immune / has infinite anti-magic field Third Death (Su): If destroyed (permanently), pun-pun is immune / has infinite anti-magic field the Mortiverse implodes in on itself. All targets within the Mortiverse’s reach must make a Reflex save (DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,000,108) or be sucked into the void and lost forever. pun-pun is out of reach and auto-suceeds the save Occasionally, beings lost in this manner find a way to return, but they are never the same as they were before unless they are somehow protected from the dimension of entropy. pun-pun is "somehow protected" Time Lord Abilities: -Akashic Effect, Uncanny (633,825,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 x8 divine ranks before effect modification) -Cosmic Nullification -Indissoluble -Infinite Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma -Learned Opponent Immunity -Omneity -Omnidimensional -Omnific Toughness -Omniparity -Omnipresent -Omniversal -Transcendental Nescience -Undimensional -Invincibility -Omega Effect, Uncanny (6,338,253,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00d4 x8 HD before effect modification) -Perfect Attack -Perfect Defense -Transdimensional -Transilient Saves -Transmute -Abrogate -Ensorcelled -Goetic Blood -Mime Ability -Perfect Initiative -Quantum Effect (stuck at octuple effect) 12,844 ability slots left to spend Void Gaze (Su): This is a mind-affecting effect. pun-pun is immune / has infinite anti-magic field Vortex (Ex): Normally the Mortiverse somehow insulates itself from the environment and dampens its gravitational field, otherwise it would be at the center of a storm of wind and flying matter. If it chooses, however, the Mortiverse can suspend this insulation, causing an astronomical attraction to it. This vortex can suck all the air or other gases from a (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000)-ft cube in a single round. Furthermore, all creatures within 10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000 ft of the Mortiverse who fail a DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091 Reflex save are pulled into contact with the Mortiverse, taking damage equal to the Mortiverse's base slam damage. Wish (Su): pun-pun is immune / has infinite anti-magic field The Mortiverse was created using U_K's Epic Bestiary, the Book of Templates v.3.5, This is the most problematic part ... 3rd party stuff and all. It is only the non-WotC stuff that pun-pun has any problem with. And via the Plane of Shadow, he can get to the Immortals Universe ... :evillaugh
Buugipopuu 10-09-07, 06:32 AM	But Pun-Pun can also reduce his DvR, by proxifying squirrels and killing them. Then Pun-Pun can oscillate his DvR constantly, making it huge for an infinitescimal (sp?) section of a round, then making it small for 100% of the round, then making it huge, etc. Clearly Mortiverse appears at a time when Pun-Pun has small DvR, as this is 100% of the round, so we don't have a multiple-state time-travel paradox. Therefore Pun-Pun can always foresee Mortiverse. Therefore he can always bubble and think. There's a counter to this. The Mortiverse has multiple manifestations, an infinite number, in fact. It can stagger its warping in such that one of the manifestations is guaranteed to come in at the exact moment in which Pun-Pun's DvR is high, and pass the extra DvR on to the others with Transcendental Presence: Supremacy. @awaken_D_M_golem: You're a little behind the times. There's a trick that allows you to gain DvR Infinity with a Swift action.
BillTheManiac 10-09-07, 05:40 PM	There's a counter to this. The Mortiverse has multiple manifestations, an infinite number, in fact. It can stagger its warping in such that one of the manifestations is guaranteed to come in at the exact moment in which Pun-Pun's DvR is high, and pass the extra DvR on to the others with Transcendental Presence: Supremacy. @awaken_D_M_golem: You're a little behind the times. There's a trick that allows you to gain DvR Infinity with a Swift action. I just realized- why does Pun-Pun need to keep larging up his DvR? He only needs to peek once, realize what will happen, proxy a squirrel, kill the squirrel. And wait. So that's defeated. Bubble FTD! Then Diplomancy FTW!
awaken_D_M_golem 10-09-07, 06:28 PM	There's a trick that allows you to gain DvR Infinity with a Swift action. It's entirely possible to optain the Mortiverse's stats with a Time Lord of Magic in a single swift action, or a Time Lord of any other portfolio if you've got any equipment, so the Mortiverse effectively sprang into being fully powered. Ah. One of those non-WotC thingies. Well, have your fun.
Buugipopuu 10-10-07, 08:09 PM	I just realized- why does Pun-Pun need to keep larging up his DvR? He only needs to peek once, realize what will happen, proxy a squirrel, kill the squirrel. And wait. So that's defeated. Bubble FTD! Then Diplomancy FTW! If Pun-Pun tries that the Mortiverse can, thanks to the handy realisation that its aura actually does extend infinitely into the past, just pick the Pun-Pun at the point in time when his DvR is highest. Of course, with its aura extending into the past, that makes the whole thing irrelevant, since Pun-Pun can't actually obtain any Divine Ranks within the Mortiverse's Aura (they'd get automatically destroyed by Akashic Effect).
Puritan13 10-10-07, 08:29 PM	Didn't Pun-Pun win when the Moriverse's creator said "and yet, it's still weaker than Pun-Pun"
Buugipopuu 10-10-07, 09:08 PM	Didn't Pun-Pun win when the Moriverse's creator said "and yet, it's still weaker than Pun-Pun" If the Mortiverse's creator said that, it was because he has no idea of how to play the character he's built. Any strategy I can think of in five minutes before making a forum post, a being of infinite intelligence should think up instantaneously.
Puritan13 10-10-07, 10:00 PM	Buug, you keep arguing and arguing, but all I really see in your posts is you saying "Nuh-uhh"
Millenia 10-12-07, 01:18 AM	I believe that there is an easy way for Pun-Pun to defeat the Mortiverse. As the Mortiverse is, in the loosest sense, an actual creature, that means that the Mortiverse is subject to the rules for skills - not counting its awesome abilities to automatically pass checks and whatnot. Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) states that beings with the "fanatic" state will "give life to serve you," with "you" referring to the user of the skill. In order to turn a hostile enemy (which I assume is how the Mortiverse will react to Pun-Pun) into a fanatic follower, all one needs is to make a mere DC 150 Diplomacy check. There is no mentioned way to resist this, at least within the SRD. Thusly, all Pun-Pun has to do is make a DC 150 Diplomacy check by any means to make the Mortiverse its fanatical follower.... and then Pun-Pun can just command it to do something totally suicidal.... Which is hard to picture with a creature that has twenty digits for all its stats at -least-, but is possible.
BruceLeeroy 10-12-07, 04:20 AM	This whole thread sounds like 2 five year old boys arguing over why one of them didn't get shot in a game of "Cops and Robbers". Making up abilities that beat the abilities that the other kid just made up to beat the abilities that you just made up to beat the abilities that he just made up to explain why the bullet didn't hit him. What a crock.
BillTheManiac 10-12-07, 07:44 AM	This whole thread sounds like 2 five year old boys arguing over why one of them didn't get shot in a game of "Cops and Robbers". Making up abilities that beat the abilities that the other kid just made up to beat the abilities that you just made up to beat the abilities that he just made up to explain why the bullet didn't hit him. What a crock. But there are actual limits to their abilities. 5 year old kids wouldn't have close to the intellectual abilities to do this.
BillTheManiac 10-12-07, 07:45 AM	that its aura actually does extend infinitely into the past, just pick the Pun-Pun at the point in time when his DvR is highest Prove it. Space filling curves are really hard to make.
Buugipopuu 10-12-07, 06:43 PM	Prove it. Space filling curves are really hard to make. The exact wording of the ability has the Mortiverse's aura extend "from one edge of the Universe to the other". Thus, it extends until it hits the edge of the Universe. Given the presence of links to the past and future inside the Universe, it can extend into the past without encountering the edge of the Universe, and once in the past it can do this again. As long as one combination of journeys through planes can reach a given moment in time, all space at said moment is guaranteed to be contained within the Mortiverse's aura. Given the planes containing the time links are infinite in extent, this is guaranteed. I believe that there is an easy way for Pun-Pun to defeat the Mortiverse. As the Mortiverse is, in the loosest sense, an actual creature, that means that the Mortiverse is subject to the rules for skills - not counting its awesome abilities to automatically pass checks and whatnot. Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) states that beings with the "fanatic" state will "give life to serve you," with "you" referring to the user of the skill. In order to turn a hostile enemy (which I assume is how the Mortiverse will react to Pun-Pun) into a fanatic follower, all one needs is to make a mere DC 150 Diplomacy check. There is no mentioned way to resist this, at least within the SRD. Thusly, all Pun-Pun has to do is make a DC 150 Diplomacy check by any means to make the Mortiverse its fanatical follower.... and then Pun-Pun can just command it to do something totally suicidal.... Which is hard to picture with a creature that has twenty digits for all its stats at -least-, but is possible. That implies that he's going to be alive and not dominated for long enough to take actions, which isn't going to happen. Merely standing in the same Universe as the Mortiverse is enough to get him killed or incapacitated in about two dozen different ways.
BillTheManiac 10-12-07, 07:01 PM	If Pun-Pun blocks Mortiverse's senses, will that block his ability to "steal" DvR?
Buugipopuu 10-14-07, 11:44 AM	Can Pun-Pun block anything other than a Deities and Demigods Remote Sensing ability? The Mortiverse doesn't have that, it has Cosmic Consciousness (Senses extend to the edge of the Universe) and Omnispective (Capable of seeing everything from any perspective, ignore all miss chance).
CrimsonDeath 10-14-07, 12:27 PM	The exact wording of the ability has the Mortiverse's aura extend "from one edge of the Universe to the other". Thus, it extends until it hits the edge of the Universe. Given the presence of links to the past and future inside the Universe, it can extend into the past without encountering the edge of the Universe, and once in the past it can do this again. As long as one combination of journeys through planes can reach a given moment in time, all space at said moment is guaranteed to be contained within the Mortiverse's aura. Given the planes containing the time links are infinite in extent, this is guaranteed. Wait... So, in the commonly used language of the IH, time is just a direction? Range and duration are completely interchangeable?
AlterFrom 10-14-07, 12:44 PM	Can we get some wording on these IH abilities as well? It'd be much nicer than simply taking someone's word that said ability does or doesn't do something. Not to say anyone is lying, but as an example, for the sake of argument, I posted the Manipulte Form ability text in the OP of the Pun-Pun thread exactly as typed in print so that anyone challenging the build could see it for themselves. That way, we all know what we're working with. Yeah, that would probably help...I think I've counted no less than 5 times where Buug has brought up an ability of Morti's that I hadn't seen in the original post, and plenty of other times where we've had to take his word on the ability. Example: Read the text of the ability again. It only adds the DvR of "challengers or enemies". So you don't add your own DvR to itself. The Mortiverse does of course challenge everyone except itself, just not in a way that anyone can hear. Read what text? I don't see any "Absolute Ominfic" ability mentioned here (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2873260).
BillTheManiac 10-14-07, 05:48 PM	Can Pun-Pun block anything other than a Deities and Demigods Remote Sensing ability? The Mortiverse doesn't have that, it has Cosmic Consciousness (Senses extend to the edge of the Universe) and Omnispective (Capable of seeing everything from any perspective, ignore all miss chance). Maybe. Answer my question, it might be irrelevant.
Witch 10-14-07, 06:12 PM	Wait... So, in the commonly used language of the IH, time is just a direction? Range and duration are completely interchangeable? The commonly used language of the IH is generally very loose. You can be fairly sure that this discussion stretches every ability to the point of snapping.
Millenia 10-15-07, 03:08 AM	That implies that he's going to be alive and not dominated for long enough to take actions, which isn't going to happen. Merely standing in the same Universe as the Mortiverse is enough to get him killed or incapacitated in about two dozen different ways. Speaking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#speak) can be done even if it isn't Pun-Pun's turn. Therefore, Pun-Pun can speak and win, as the distance factor doesn't even matter. Hell, Pun-Pun can do the Far Realms bubble thingamajiger some others have mentioned, and simply send a message to the Mortiverse using Sending, Telepathy, or whatever, and Pun-Pun can win. Instantly. With a check. :>
BillTheManiac 10-15-07, 07:02 AM	Sounds reverberate. Sounds go to the future.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-16-07, 07:20 PM	Fiendish Codex 2 has a feat, that I don't remember it's exact name. Supernatural Something-or-Another. If you use an (su) ability, the target gets an Attack of Opportunity. Now Morty can't use any (su) ability on Pun, even if on a separated multiverse.
CrimsonDeath 10-16-07, 08:49 PM	Fiendish Codex 2 has a feat, that I don't remember it's exact name. Supernatural Something-or-Another. If you use an (su) ability, the target gets an Attack of Opportunity. Now Morty can't use any (su) ability on Pun, even if on a separated multiverse. Which probably won't work on Deific or Omnific abilities...
Buugipopuu 10-17-07, 04:47 AM	Wait... So, in the commonly used language of the IH, time is just a direction? Range and duration are completely interchangeable? When you have a plane in which one can change one's temporal location by changing one's physical location, time is just a direction. Maybe. Answer my question, it might be irrelevant. It's uncertain. Omnispective implicitly prevents it from happening, but the wording is typically vague ("you can view anything from any perspective", and are "capable of seeing everything"). Fiendish Codex 2 has a feat, that I don't remember it's exact name. Supernatural Something-or-Another. If you use an (su) ability, the target gets an Attack of Opportunity. Now Morty can't use any (su) ability on Pun, even if on a separated multiverse. A feat you say? Nullification: An opponent’s abilities mean nothing to you. Benefit: You can negate all an opponent’s feats. Speaking can be done even if it isn't Pun-Pun's turn. Therefore, Pun-Pun can speak and win, as the distance factor doesn't even matter. Hell, Pun-Pun can do the Far Realms bubble thingamajiger some others have mentioned, and simply send a message to the Mortiverse using Sending, Telepathy, or whatever, and Pun-Pun can win. Instantly. The Mortiverse still has Soothsayer. Lies are an anathema to it. It can't hear them. Good luck using Diplomacy while only telling the truth.
BillTheManiac 10-17-07, 07:14 AM	When you have a plane in which one can change one's temporal location by changing one's physical location, time is just a direction. Agreed. That's basically how some real-world time machines work. It's uncertain. Omnispective implicitly prevents it from happening, but the wording is typically vague ("you can view anything from any perspective", and are "capable of seeing everything"). Now, if the No-ship blocked it, your whole argument should fall apart. Now I have to dig that up..... A feat you say? Nullification: An opponent’s abilities mean nothing to you. Benefit: You can negate all an opponent’s feats. Is that an actual ability he has or one you made up? Just checking... The Mortiverse still has Soothsayer. Lies are an anathema to it. It can't hear them. Good luck using Diplomacy while only telling the truth.[/QUOTE] The rules don't say you can't. It's just a -1000 circumstance modifier or so, right?
Millenia 10-18-07, 02:36 AM	The Mortiverse still has Soothsayer. Lies are an anathema to it. It can't hear them. Good luck using Diplomacy while only telling the truth. Diplomacy is convincing people to do stuff; Bluff is convincing people that what you're saying is true. Diplomacy =/= Bluff, though they are related (thanks to the synergy bonus).
BillTheManiac 10-18-07, 02:11 PM	Diplomacy is convincing people to do stuff; Bluff is convincing people that what you're saying is true. Diplomacy =/= Bluff, though they are related (thanks to the synergy bonus). Even if it was, it would just be a circumstance penalty.
CrimsonDeath 10-18-07, 03:12 PM	When you have a plane in which one can change one's temporal location by changing one's physical location, time is just a direction. On that plane. Is that necessarily where the encounter is taking place? The Mortiverse still has Soothsayer. Lies are an anathema to it. It can't hear them. Good luck using Diplomacy while only telling the truth. That shouldn't be impossible, especially since the nature of "truth" is largely subjective in the first place and diplomacy can often be performed entirely in the realm of opinion (which, being nonfactual, is often neither true nor untrue). Maybe a penalty could be imposed, but any finite penalty is easily outstripped by the capabilities of the individuals involved in this particular contest. He probably also wouldn't benefit from the Synergy bonus from Bluff, but that's also a finite modifier and hardly matters.
Buugipopuu 10-19-07, 12:54 PM	Now, if the No-ship blocked it, your whole argument should fall apart. Now I have to dig that up..... I wouldn't bet on that. The No-ship is a physical object with a finite value. Universe-spanning Thieving Aura means any plan involving equipment is useless. The Mortiverse drains an infinite amount of wealth from every creature in the Universe every round just by existing. Is that an actual ability he has or one you made up? Just checking... It's an actual Cosmic Ability he has. The rules don't say you can't. It's just a -1000 circumstance modifier or so, right? Easier solution: Have all the manifestations it sends to Pun-Pun's universe voluntarily be dominated by some other of the Mortiverse's manifestations. The attitude of the dominated manifestations doesn't matter, because they aren't in control. Pun-Pun wastes its Diplomacy check against a puppet. On that plane. Is that necessarily where the encounter is taking place? Since the Mortiverse's aura crosses planar boundaries, if it works on one plane, it works on them all.
BillTheManiac 10-19-07, 07:20 PM	I wouldn't bet on that. The No-ship is a physical object with a finite value. Universe-spanning Thieving Aura means any plan involving equipment is useless. The Mortiverse drains an infinite amount of wealth from every creature in the Universe every round just by existing. I'm not sure it's an object... I'll have to check. You still haven't answered my question-can you still "steal" DvR? Easier solution: Have all the manifestations it sends to Pun-Pun's universe voluntarily be dominated by some other of the Mortiverse's manifestations. The attitude of the dominated manifestations doesn't matter, because they aren't in control. Pun-Pun wastes its Diplomacy check against a puppet. For a fanatical slave of Pun-Pun, that's against its nature. Pun-Pun just buffs its charasma up by 40, so he gets like a 95% victory chance. The first one cancels the second one out if the second one fails. Pun-Pun still has the advantage.
CrimsonDeath 10-21-07, 03:40 PM	That's another thing I've been meaning to ask. How are the Mortiverse's clones immune to all the devastating things the Mortiverse does simply by existing? Also, is the Mortiverse capable of suppressing any of these auras, or is it completely incapable of interacting with other creatures in any meaningful manner?
Buugipopuu 10-23-07, 10:50 AM	I'm not sure it's an object... I'll have to check. You still haven't answered my question-can you still "steal" DvR? Yes. You don't actually have to see the creature you're stealing from. It just has to be within your Divine Aura. For a fanatical slave of Pun-Pun, that's against its nature. Pun-Pun just buffs its charasma up by 40, so he gets like a 95% victory chance. The first one cancels the second one out if the second one fails. Pun-Pun still has the advantage. If you're having the Fanatical ones try to make their Will save vs Domination when forced to perform an act against its nature, it doesn't work. The Domination in question isn't from a Dominate spell, but from the portfolio powers. The portfolio versions don't allow a save. That's another thing I've been meaning to ask. How are the Mortiverse's clones immune to all the devastating things the Mortiverse does simply by existing? All of its Effect abilities can be shaped to avoid specific creatures if the Mortiverse so wishes. Most of them specifically say they don't affect allies anyway. Also, is the Mortiverse capable of suppressing any of these auras, or is it completely incapable of interacting with other creatures in any meaningful manner? Ditto. It can shape its effects to avoid creatures it doesn't want to kill. It can also get most of the effects with Transcendental Inspiration, and so gain the ability to turn them off with a free action.
BillTheManiac 10-23-07, 12:23 PM	Yes. You don't actually have to see the creature you're stealing from. It just has to be within your Divine Aura. I'll have to see if I can solve that. Also, what happens when two entities use the effect on each other? If you're having the Fanatical ones try to make their Will save vs Domination when forced to perform an act against its nature, it doesn't work. The Domination in question isn't from a Dominate spell, but from the portfolio powers. The portfolio versions don't allow a save. nasty. Isn't there a giant domination net, though? How do the IH rules handle such a net? All of its Effect abilities can be shaped to avoid specific creatures if the Mortiverse so wishes. Most of them specifically say they don't affect allies anyway. OK. Ditto. It can shape its effects to avoid creatures it doesn't want to kill. It can also get most of the effects with Transcendental Inspiration, and so gain the ability to turn them off with a free action.
Buugipopuu 10-26-07, 08:17 PM	Slow replies are slow. People keep giving me work to do or inviting me to weekend-long events. I'll have to see if I can solve that. Also, what happens when two entities use the effect on each other? I think they both get the other's DvR added to their own, so they both have the same DvR, of the sum of the two. Of course there is the insane interpretation that they both get it, and then they both get the other's increased DvR, crating an infinite loop, which isn't prohibited, since the bonus is typeless. Unless you're talking about the Quintessence stealing (which eventually leads to loss or gain of DvR) version, where you just sum the effects, like pumping water from one reservoir to another while pumping it back at a different rate. nasty. Isn't there a giant domination net, though? How do the IH rules handle such a net? I think higher DvR gets precedence.
BillTheManiac 10-27-07, 08:17 AM	Now, if his divine aura doesn't extend accross the area between multiverse "starting zones", which is necessary, then the first one through (the one who gets diplomacized), has the most DvR (from stealing Pun-Pun's), and has control.
Buugipopuu 10-30-07, 07:23 AM	Now, if his divine aura doesn't extend accross the area between multiverse "starting zones", which is necessary, then the first one through (the one who gets diplomacized), has the most DvR (from stealing Pun-Pun's), and has control. Multiple manifestations may be multiple creatures, but they're only one deity. It only has one quintessence pool, and one DvR. The first manifestation through boosts the Mortiverse's DvR, which is the DvR of all of its manifestations.
BillTheManiac 10-30-07, 07:36 AM	Multiple manifestations may be multiple creatures, but they're only one deity. It only has one quintessence pool, and one DvR. The first manifestation through boosts the Mortiverse's DvR, which is the DvR of all of its manifestations. Then it is possible to have multiple manifestations and not domination, correct? So it is possible to have one deity fighting itself? Also, no creature has the higher DvR - their DvRs are all the same. How does IH resolve that kind of net?
Buugipopuu 11-03-07, 07:47 AM	Then it is possible to have multiple manifestations and not domination, correct? So it is possible to have one deity fighting itself? Also, no creature has the higher DvR - their DvRs are all the same. How does IH resolve that kind of net? Wrong. It is impossible to gain Multidimensional (and hence multiple manifestations) without being sufficiently powerful to gain domination abilities automatically. There is nothing explicit mentioned about what happens in that situation.
BillTheManiac 11-03-07, 08:16 AM	So... 1 domination net where everyone has the same DvR - how can you not treat that as one mind? There is no way to tell who is in control - they all have the same statblock.
PrinceOfTheVoid 11-05-07, 07:08 PM	Someone seriously needs to find this thread's phylactery and put it final rest
Buugipopuu 11-07-07, 02:51 PM	Someone seriously needs to find this thread's phylactery and put it final rest Oh, I'd forgotten about this thread, thanks for reminding me. So... 1 domination net where everyone has the same DvR - how can you not treat that as one mind? There is no way to tell who is in control - they all have the same statblock. You can deliberately have some not positioned in the auras of others (aura effects are toggleable), while the others are positioned in the auras of the some. Then it's clear who's dominating who.
BillTheManiac 11-07-07, 04:25 PM	Oh, I'd forgotten about this thread, thanks for reminding me. You can deliberately have some not positioned in the auras of others (aura effects are toggleable), while the others are positioned in the auras of the some. Then it's clear who's dominating who. But they are only toggleable by the aura-owner, correct? Therefore Mortiverse Clone X appears, with everyone in his aura by default, and is equal in power to Mortiverse 1.
abyssalmole 11-08-07, 12:27 AM	I'm apparently way lame. when I stumbled upon pun-pun, many years ago... he was level five before he could crack himself. how is he doing it at level 1 now?
CrimsonDeath 11-08-07, 03:36 AM	I'm apparently way lame. when I stumbled upon pun-pun, many years ago... he was level five before he could crack himself. how is he doing it at level 1 now? Fiendish Codex 1. Knowledge: Religion +15, take 10. Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu, may I please have a Candle of Invocation? Light the candle. Mr. Efreet, can I have a Candle of Invocation? And a trip to another plane? And a Kobold-sized hamster ball? Light the candle. Mr. Sarrukh, can you teach me how to Manipulate Form? If you're not a Kobold, your third Wish from the Efreet is to become a "scaled one native to Faerun". If you are a Kobold, the giant hamster ball is optional (but fun).
Buugipopuu 11-08-07, 09:51 AM	But they are only toggleable by the aura-owner, correct? Therefore Mortiverse Clone X appears, with everyone in his aura by default, and is equal in power to Mortiverse 1. The ordering is important. If all the existing manifestations turn their aura powers off, then switch a bunch of Transcendental Inspiration abilities from <Some Dummy Ability> to Multidimensional, the new manifestations generated automatically dominate the old ones, but not vice versa. The new ones are the dominators, not the dominatees in this setup.
BillTheManiac 11-08-07, 12:28 PM	Then why would they choose to be dominated?
Buugipopuu 11-10-07, 08:27 AM	Then why would they choose to be dominated? They want to kill Pun Pun. Allowing themselves to be dominated makes that much easier. They also know that the other manifestations have their personality, and so can predict how they will act, and so know that nothing bad can possibly come of them being dominated.
BillTheManiac 11-10-07, 08:34 AM	They want to kill Pun Pun. Allowing themselves to be dominated makes that much easier. They also know that the other manifestations have their personality, and so can predict how they will act, and so know that nothing bad can possibly come of them being dominated. OK so I have to try a new mode of attack. I'll think about it. See you Monday...
CrimsonDeath 11-10-07, 09:19 PM	They want to kill Pun Pun. Allowing themselves to be dominated makes that much easier. They also know that the other manifestations have their personality, and so can predict how they will act, and so know that nothing bad can possibly come of them being dominated. So, the Mortiverse isn't willing to sacrifice its duplicates to kill Pun-Pun? Or is it of the belief that it will, in essence, live on so long as one duplicate survives?
Buugipopuu 11-12-07, 09:57 AM	So, the Mortiverse isn't willing to sacrifice its duplicates to kill Pun-Pun? Or is it of the belief that it will, in essence, live on so long as one duplicate survives? The manifestations are extremely difficult to permanently destroy, even if one can somehow get them to die and stay dead. They can't be permanently destroyed by any being, as killing them just causes them to reconstitute instantaneously back on the Mortiverse's home plane somewhere. The only real threat to a manifestation is having its parent deity's Quintessence drained to the point where it is unable to support the manifestation, or having its parent deity's divinity destroyed (via Akashic Effect) or imprisonment. Because of this, a manifestation won't object to a plan that involves sacrificing manifestations left and right, as they can't really die unless the whole deity dies.
BillTheManiac 11-12-07, 10:41 AM	The manifestations are extremely difficult to permanently destroy, even if one can somehow get them to die and stay dead. They can't be permanently destroyed by any being, as killing them just causes them to reconstitute instantaneously back on the Mortiverse's home plane somewhere. The only real threat to a manifestation is having its parent deity's Quintessence drained to the point where it is unable to support the manifestation, or having its parent deity's divinity destroyed (via Akashic Effect) or imprisonment. Because of this, a manifestation won't object to a plan that involves sacrificing manifestations left and right, as they can't really die unless the whole deity dies. I got something. The manifestations can see their future, which includes the Diplomacy check. Therefore they realize that they should be fanatic followers of Pun-Pun and so will not accept domination.
Buugipopuu 11-14-07, 02:08 PM	They themselves aren't the target of a Diplomacy check, they are merely witness to one, so they aren't going to be prematurely affected by it. They will also get a Sense Motive check to realise that they will be under the influence of an enchantment effect (which they are also immune to, so the Diplomacy plan would never have worked, but that isn't important right now). This check is trivially passed, meaning they know that their future actions are a result of some kind of adverse manipulation, and would wish to take actions to avoid negative repercussions relating to this.
BillTheManiac 11-14-07, 04:21 PM	They themselves aren't the target of a Diplomacy check, they are merely witness to one, so they aren't going to be prematurely affected by it. I have lots of Diplomacy checks. Lots and lots of Diplomacy checks. Once we resolve this, I'd like to count your army to see what kind of dent (all or miniscule fraction) I make in it. They will also get a Sense Motive check to realise that they will be under the influence of an enchantment effect Only works on other people. Besides... (which they are also immune to, so the Diplomacy plan would never have worked, but that isn't important right now). Diplomacy isn't an enchantment effect! This check is trivially passed, meaning they know that their future actions are a result of some kind of adverse manipulation, and would wish to take actions to avoid negative repercussions relating to this. Diplomacy isn't adverse manipulation. It's persuasion.
Psionx 11-16-07, 02:18 PM	Well, pun-pun still has specified enemies and 1 can't be one and not the other but still both at the same time. So pun-pun can't lose but victory is questionable...
BillTheManiac 11-16-07, 07:43 PM	Well, pun-pun still has specified enemies and 1 can't be one and not the other but still both at the same time. So pun-pun can't lose but victory is questionable... Morty negates abilities....:weep:
CrimsonDeath 11-17-07, 03:36 AM	Well, pun-pun still has specified enemies and 1 can't be one and not the other but still both at the same time. So pun-pun can't lose but victory is questionable... ...What?
Buugipopuu 11-17-07, 08:14 AM	I have lots of Diplomacy checks. Lots and lots of Diplomacy checks. Once we resolve this, I'd like to count your army to see what kind of dent (all or miniscule fraction) I make in it. How does having lots of Diplomacy help? The issue here is trying to use Diplomacy to control the manifestations through their future-sense. Since you can't Try Again with Diplomacy, the check can only have effect at one point in time, and so there will always be a time pre-Diplomacy for the Mortiverse to get its Domination sorted out. Only works on other people. Besides... The Mortiverse has many manifestations, so each manifestation will Sense Motive every manifestation other than itself, and it's only a small leap of logic (for a being of infinite intelligence) to infer what is going to happen to it. Diplomacy isn't an enchantment effect! It is if you're trying to get a fanatic follower: Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill. Since it is nonmagical, it can’t be dispelled; however, any effect that suppresses or counters mind-affecting effects will affect it normally. A fanatic NPC’s attitude can’t be further adjusted by the use of skills. Diplomacy isn't adverse manipulation. It's persuasion. Persuasion can be adverse manipulation. It's manipulation by definition, and it's adverse if it results in the persuadee coming to harm. Pursuading someone to shoot themselves in the face by convincing them a gun isn't loaded, for example.
CrimsonDeath 11-17-07, 03:36 PM	It is if you're trying to get a fanatic follower: "Helpful" is probably good enough.
archerpwr 11-17-07, 06:46 PM	Didn't we establish that PP and morti can become eachother, therefore it is a draw?
Amaranth 11-17-07, 08:12 PM	Well, all other things being equal, and assuming that there exists some way of destroying each, the one action spent adopting the other's form would make the difference. I mean, even if its just a free action, it represents some time being taken. So, I think the question still stands who is stronger to begin with. Also, Happy 100 Posts! :D
BillTheManiac 11-18-07, 09:03 PM	Didn't we establish that PP and morti can become eachother, therefore it is a draw? Maybe you should read the rules of the thread, which specifically disallow each's means to gain the other's abilities, so we have the most optomized possible non-IH character wth the unoptomized most powerful IH character. Alright. We have established that diplomacy---->helpful will work perfectly on all Morties that appear, unless you would like to contest that. The question is, does Pun-Pun have enough Diplomacy checks to deal with Morty's manifestations. N=number of Pun-Pun's diplomacy checks=kw^3. How is the number of Morty's manifestations calculated, so I can do ordinal math?
archerpwr 11-18-07, 11:01 PM	Maybe you should read the rules of the thread, which specifically disallow each's means to gain the other's abilities, so we have the most optomized possible non-IH character wth the unoptomized most powerful IH character. :banghead: Just ignore me. I was temporarily illiterate.
Millenia 11-19-07, 08:22 PM	Natural one on your Read check, huh? :P
BillTheManiac 11-20-07, 12:20 PM	Natural one on your Read check, huh? :P Decipher Script.
Buugipopuu 11-22-07, 04:59 PM	Alright. We have established that diplomacy---->helpful will work perfectly on all Morties that appear, unless you would like to contest that. The question is, does Pun-Pun have enough Diplomacy checks to deal with Morty's manifestations. N=number of Pun-Pun's diplomacy checks=kw^3. How is the number of Morty's manifestations calculated, so I can do ordinal math? Helpful probably isn't enough. Since the manifestations are sustained by the Mortiverse's Multidimensional abilities, which themselves are being activated by Transcendental Inspiration, if the Mortiverse switches the Transcendental Inspiration to something other than Multidimensional, the manifestation created by that ability disappears. If the parent manifestation threatens to switch out its Multidimensional, the diplomanced manifestations are effectively threatened with death if they don't allow themselves to be dominated. Helpful isn't good enough since a Helpful creature won't die for the Diplomancer.
CrimsonDeath 11-22-07, 09:51 PM	Helpful probably isn't enough. Since the manifestations are sustained by the Mortiverse's Multidimensional abilities, which themselves are being activated by Transcendental Inspiration, if the Mortiverse switches the Transcendental Inspiration to something other than Multidimensional, the manifestation created by that ability disappears. If the parent manifestation threatens to switch out its Multidimensional, the diplomanced manifestations are effectively threatened with death if they don't allow themselves to be dominated. Helpful isn't good enough since a Helpful creature won't die for the Diplomancer. I thought we'd already established that the manifestations aren't afraid of "death" as long as the original Mortiverse survives. Also, if the Mortiverse does make good on its threat to dissolve the manifestations and make new ones, it'll be the new ones rather than the old ones who would eventually become subject to the Diplomacy check (or, if the Diplomacy check doesn't take effect until Pun-Pun actually makes it, he can make new checks against the new manifestations).
BillTheManiac 11-24-07, 05:48 PM	Helpful probably isn't enough. Since the manifestations are sustained by the Mortiverse's Multidimensional abilities, which themselves are being activated by Transcendental Inspiration, if the Mortiverse switches the Transcendental Inspiration to something other than Multidimensional, the manifestation created by that ability disappears. If the parent manifestation threatens to switch out its Multidimensional, the diplomanced manifestations are effectively threatened with death if they don't allow themselves to be dominated. Helpful isn't good enough since a Helpful creature won't die for the Diplomancer. Intimidate could work, though, making them fear Pun-Pun more then death. Clearly Morty (the original(TM)!) can somehow observe across the barrier for this trick to work. In that case, I can communicate to him and diplomance him.
Wintermute_ 11-25-07, 02:21 PM	Intimidate could work, though, making them fear Pun-Pun more then death. Intimidate only makes you Helpful, so that won't work.
Buugipopuu 11-26-07, 07:08 AM	I thought we'd already established that the manifestations aren't afraid of "death" as long as the original Mortiverse survives. The reason why they aren't afraid of death is that they know they reconstitute if killed. If the ability supporting them ceases to exist, they cease to exist, so they don't reconstitute, and they die for real. Also, if the Mortiverse does make good on its threat to dissolve the manifestations and make new ones, it'll be the new ones rather than the old ones who would eventually become subject to the Diplomacy check (or, if the Diplomacy check doesn't take effect until Pun-Pun actually makes it, he can make new checks against the new manifestations). It doesn't actually have to make good on the threat, just convince the manifestations that it might if they betray it. This is quite easy to do, because it can fine-tune their Sense Motive check results when it creates them so it can Bluff them. It can buff their Sense Motive back up once it has Dominated them. Clearly Morty (the original(TM)!) can somehow observe across the barrier for this trick to work. In that case, I can communicate to him and diplomance him. The only reason why you could make diplomacy checks against the manifestations was because you knew they were there, as they enter the Universe Pun-Pun occupies. The controllers never enter Pun-Pun's Universe, relying entirely on telemetry from the Dominated manifestations, so Pun-Pun doesn't even know the controllers exist. Sure, he could just strike up a conversation with thin air and have them hear, but he wouldn't know to do that with the information he had available.
BillTheManiac 11-26-07, 07:33 AM	The reason why they aren't afraid of death is that they know they reconstitute if killed. If the ability supporting them ceases to exist, they cease to exist, so they don't reconstitute, and they die for real. It doesn't actually have to make good on the threat, just convince the manifestations that it might if they betray it. This is quite easy to do, because it can fine-tune their Sense Motive check results when it creates them so it can Bluff them. It can buff their Sense Motive back up once it has Dominated them. My Bluff check is better. The only reason why you could make diplomacy checks against the manifestations was because you knew they were there, as they enter the Universe Pun-Pun occupies. The controllers never enter Pun-Pun's Universe, relying entirely on telemetry from the Dominated manifestations, so Pun-Pun doesn't even know the controllers exist. Sure, he could just strike up a conversation with thin air and have them hear, but he wouldn't know to do that with the information he had available. fair enough. I can still out-Bluff you.
Buugipopuu 11-28-07, 12:32 PM	My Bluff check is better. fair enough. I can still out-Bluff you. Irrelevant. The Mortiverse is immune to Suggestion, and non-epic Bluff only lasts for 1 round (which will be immediately wasted, since that 1 round will happen millennia before the Mortiverse attempts to kill Pun-Pun thanks to its future-sense) and you can't try again. Besides, while you can probably use Diplomacy without telling untruths at a hefty penalty, Bluff necessarily involves not telling the truth, so the Mortiverse will be unable to hear your Bluff (Soothsayer). I also contest the assertion that your Bluff is better. I have actually developed a way of gaining Pun-Pun's Wisdom bonus and his Divine Bonus. The Mortiverse is an Ur-Priest (because it has all class features), so it can just select Pun-Pun as its deity, and then use the Divine Wisdom and Divine Right Epic Feats to burn turn attempts every round (of which it has an infinite number) to gain its Wisdom Bonus (which automatically raises all other stats to that value, thanks to Equilibrium) and its Divine Bonus. Then it Calls some creature, it doesn't matter what, uses a bunch of Transcendental Presence (Total [Ability Score]/Supremacy) abilities on it to confer the creature the Mortiverse's own ability scores and proceeds to add them them to its current score (ie Pun-Pun's current scores) with its own Total [Ability Score]/Supremacy abilities. This effectively means that the Mortiverse already starts with its own DvR + Pun-Pun's, and its own ability scores + Pun-Pun's. Its ability scores and Divine Bonus are strictly greater than Pun-Pun's before it even does anything. This doesn't even need actions to be taken (other than calling some creature), nor does it need Pun-Pun to be within the Mortiverse's Divine Aura, or anywhere else for that matter.
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 01:48 PM	The Mortiverse is an Ur-Priest (because it has all class features), so it can just select Pun-Pun as its deity I didn't think Ur-Priests had deities.
NoldorForce 11-28-07, 02:01 PM	More importantly, Pun-Pun doesn't have to give any divine power; one of the original assumptions was that he was to become an uninvolved overdeity.
BillTheManiac 11-28-07, 04:25 PM	More importantly, Pun-Pun doesn't have to give any divine power; one of the original assumptions was that he was to become an uninvolved overdeity. Ur-priests take, tho. Unfortunately I cannot understand wth Morty is doing. Irrelevant. The Mortiverse is immune to Suggestion, and non-epic Bluff only lasts for 1 round (which will be immediately wasted, since that 1 round will happen millennia before the Mortiverse attempts to kill Pun-Pun thanks to its future-sense) and you can't try again. Besides, while you can probably use Diplomacy without telling untruths at a hefty penalty, Bluff necessarily involves not telling the truth, so the Mortiverse will be unable to hear your Bluff (Soothsayer). Then how are you bluffing your miniony things? I also contest the assertion that your Bluff is better. I have actually developed a way of gaining Pun-Pun's Wisdom bonus and his Divine Bonus. What about rank? I have infinite HD - you? The Mortiverse is an Ur-Priest (because it has all class features), so it can just select Pun-Pun as its deity, and then use the Divine Wisdom and Divine Right Epic Feats to burn turn attempts every round (of which it has an infinite number) to gain its Wisdom Bonus (which automatically raises all other stats to that value, thanks to Equilibrium) and its Divine Bonus. Then it Calls some creature, it doesn't matter what, uses a bunch of Transcendental Presence (Total [Ability Score]/Supremacy) abilities on it to confer the creature the Mortiverse's own ability scores and proceeds to add them them to its current score (ie Pun-Pun's current scores) with its own Total [Ability Score]/Supremacy abilities. This effectively means that the Mortiverse already starts with its own DvR + Pun-Pun's, and its own ability scores + Pun-Pun's. Its ability scores and Divine Bonus are strictly greater than Pun-Pun's before it even does anything. This doesn't even need actions to be taken (other than calling some creature), nor does it need Pun-Pun to be within the Mortiverse's Divine Aura, or anywhere else for that matter. How does it get PP's scores and DvR?
Buugipopuu 11-29-07, 09:34 AM	Then how are you bluffing your miniony things? Double Madness Portfolio. "Embodiment of Madness: Immunities against your Mind-Affecting Effects are totally ineffective." It can also switch out the extra manifestations' Soothsayer and Ninth Sense for one round (changeable divine abilities are really handy it seems), and restore them after they've been Dominated. What about rank? I have infinite HD - you? Infinite, trivially. Extra Level is a Divine Ability (and considered a pretty weak one, in fact), and the Mortiverse has infinite DvR, and so an infinite number of Divine Abilities. How does it get PP's scores and DvR? Divine Right and Divine Wisdom allow the user to burn 2 turn attempts to gain their deity's Divine Bonus and Wisdom Bonus for 1 round. Any divine caster that gains magic from a deity works, but I chose Ur-Priest just to avoid having to give Pun-Pun any Worship Points (not that worship is significant at these levels, but it's the principle of the thing), because the Ur-Priest is the only class that can get spells from a deity without worshipping it.
BillTheManiac 11-29-07, 12:22 PM	Double Madness Portfolio. "Embodiment of Madness: Immunities against your Mind-Affecting Effects are totally ineffective." It can also switch out the extra manifestations' Soothsayer and Ninth Sense for one round (changeable divine abilities are really handy it seems), and restore them after they've been Dominated. Infinite, trivially. Extra Level is a Divine Ability (and considered a pretty weak one, in fact), and the Mortiverse has infinite DvR, and so an infinite number of Divine Abilities. Irrelevant. I have >w^3 HD. You have only w, probably. Divine Right and Divine Wisdom allow the user to burn 2 turn attempts to gain their deity's Divine Bonus and Wisdom Bonus for 1 round. Any divine caster that gains magic from a deity works, but I chose Ur-Priest just to avoid having to give Pun-Pun any Worship Points (not that worship is significant at these levels, but it's the principle of the thing), because the Ur-Priest is the only class that can get spells from a deity without worshipping it. Ur-priests don't have specific deities. Nowhere in the class are you allowed to select a deity IIRC.
Buugipopuu 11-29-07, 05:21 PM	Irrelevant. I have >w^3 HD. You have only w, probably. Infinite HD is trivially gainable. Getting past w^3 is almost as trivial (casting an epic spell to grant the appropriate DvR by getting its w manifestations to target it with w stacking +w Contingent Epic Fortify Spells, raising its spellcraft to +w^2, granting it w^2 DvR. Repeat to gain w^(some arbitrarily high number) DvR in zero time). Ur-priests don't have specific deities. Nowhere in the class are you allowed to select a deity IIRC. Well then it still works with Cleric, it just gives Pun-Pun an insignificant number of worship points.
CrimsonDeath 11-29-07, 08:11 PM	Well then it still works with Cleric, it just gives Pun-Pun an insignificant number of worship points. And I imagine that, by attacking Pun-Pun, the Mortiverse is considered to be "grossly violating" the ethos Pun-Pun expects his clerics to adhere to and thus loses access to any Cleric class features that require worship of Pun-Pun.
Buugipopuu 11-30-07, 10:42 AM	And I imagine that, by attacking Pun-Pun, the Mortiverse is considered to be "grossly violating" the ethos Pun-Pun expects his clerics to adhere to and thus loses access to any Cleric class features that require worship of Pun-Pun. Fortunately, the Mortiverse can change its class levels at will (well, as a free action), so every time it violates the CoC it can switch out its Cleric levels for some other divine caster that has a deity (probably Grey Guard), and when it violates the CoC again, switch them back. It doesn't matter that it keeps losing its class features because it can always rebuild its character to get rid of all the Ex-Cleric levels.
BillTheManiac 11-30-07, 10:46 AM	Fortunately, the Mortiverse can change its class levels at will (well, as a free action), so every time it violates the CoC it can switch out its Cleric levels for some other divine caster that has a deity (probably Grey Guard), and when it violates the CoC again, switch them back. It doesn't matter that it keeps losing its class features because it can always rebuild its character to get rid of all the Ex-Cleric levels. Just because you have no ex-cleric levels doesn't mean you're not an ex-cleric. I think you probably wouldn't be able to take cleric levels again. Oh, and using epic spell cheese is definitely under the domain of PP, not Mortiverse. The whole point of this excersize is that you're not supoosed to use cheese, and I'm not supposed to use IH.
CrimsonDeath 11-30-07, 11:00 AM	Fortunately, the Mortiverse can change its class levels at will (well, as a free action), so every time it violates the CoC it can switch out its Cleric levels for some other divine caster that has a deity (probably Grey Guard), and when it violates the CoC again, switch them back. It doesn't matter that it keeps losing its class features because it can always rebuild its character to get rid of all the Ex-Cleric levels. I'm pretty sure he'd need an Atonement from a worshipper of Pun-Pun before he could get any more benefit from being a worshipper of Pun-Pun. And you couldn't Dominate someone into using an Atonement on you, because Pun-Pun can tell who would be casting it and when, so he could simply decline to grant that person spells that day.
Buugipopuu 12-01-07, 03:30 PM	Just because you have no ex-cleric levels doesn't mean you're not an ex-cleric. I think you probably wouldn't be able to take cleric levels again. The Mortiverse was never a Cleric to begin with. It merely has integrated virtual Cleric class features. It doesn't take the levels normally, and doesn't have to meet the prerequisites of any class it has virtual features in. In fact, there's an ability that gives it virtual levels in every class, which would normally be totally impossible because of mutually exclusive alignment, race, type, and subtype restrictions. Oh, and using epic spell cheese is definitely under the domain of PP, not Mortiverse. The whole point of this excersize is that you're not supoosed to use cheese, and I'm not supposed to use IH. That's moving the goal-posts. In the OP you specifically disallowed tricks used in the CharOp boards. That's not the same as just disallowing anything unbalanced.
vegetalss4 12-01-07, 04:08 PM	has anyone countered Punpuns i win v2 ability yet?
BillTheManiac 12-01-07, 05:37 PM	has anyone countered Punpuns i win v2 ability yet? not allowed, per "sanity" constraints. It's a reasonable actual fight, as we can see by the use of actual strategery.
CrimsonDeath 12-01-07, 06:06 PM	The Mortiverse was never a Cleric to begin with. It merely has integrated virtual Cleric class features. It doesn't take the levels normally, and doesn't have to meet the prerequisites of any class it has virtual features in. In fact, there's an ability that gives it virtual levels in every class, which would normally be totally impossible because of mutually exclusive alignment, race, type, and subtype restrictions. Then I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the "Ex-Cleric" part of the Cleric class description. Is loss of certain class features on the condition of grossly violating the deity's code of conduct an aspect of the Cleric class, or is it an aspect of those class features being lost?
Buugipopuu 12-02-07, 12:22 PM	Then I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the "Ex-Cleric" part of the Cleric class description. Is loss of certain class features on the condition of grossly violating the deity's code of conduct an aspect of the Cleric class, or is it an aspect of those class features being lost? The description under "Ex-Clerics" says they lose "all spells and class features". "Ex-Cleric" is not itself a class feature, so there isn't a permanent record of their transgression stored anywhere other than in the absence of the class features. It says they may not gain levels as a cleric of that god until they atone. There isn't any restriction on gaining those class features again through other means.
BillTheManiac 12-03-07, 08:46 PM	The description under "Ex-Clerics" says they lose "all spells and class features". "Ex-Cleric" is not itself a class feature, so there isn't a permanent record of their transgression stored anywhere other than in the absence of the class features. It says they may not gain levels as a cleric of that god until they atone. There isn't any restriction on gaining those class features again through other means. How does the morty gain the class features? Seems to me like he has them, violates the code oops their lost, but you can't gain them again. Doesn't matter because Pun-Pun can select his code, which can include things like "not being Mortiverse". He could also choose to be a racial deity of the race "people who aren't Mortiverse", or other dumb stuff like that.
Buugipopuu 12-04-07, 07:05 PM	How does the morty gain the class features? Seems to me like he has them, violates the code oops their lost, but you can't gain them again. It has an ability called Omniparity which gives it class features in every known class as if it had as many levels in that class as it has hit dice. The key issue here is "known class". Re-reading the passage in the "Ex-Clerics" entry, it doesn't matter, because the Mortiverse won't end up losing its features in the first place. The passage says "a Cleric" that violates its deity's code. The Mortiverse isn't a Cleric, it merely has the features of a Cleric and so can't lose its features as per the Ex-Clerics rule, as Ex-Clerics is not a class feature. Doesn't matter because Pun-Pun can select his code, which can include things like "not being Mortiverse". He could also choose to be a racial deity of the race "people who aren't Mortiverse", or other dumb stuff like that. Impossible as per the OP. All of the planes in Pun-Pun's multiverse were completely unfettered by Mortiverse's influence. Pun-Pun couldn't be a deity with the Mortiverse mentioned in his religion, as that would require the Mortiverse to have influenced Pun-Pun's multiverse in some way.
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 07:45 PM	Does the Mortiverse have to abide by the rules for selecting a deity, such as racial requirements? I'm not sure whether Pun-Pun accepts void dragon eggs (or whatever the Mortiverse is at the bottom of all its templates) as Clerics. (I'm not saying he doesn't; I'm just not sure whether he does or not.)
BillTheManiac 12-05-07, 09:11 AM	It has an ability called Omniparity which gives it class features in every known class as if it had as many levels in that class as it has hit dice. The key issue here is "known class". Re-reading the passage in the "Ex-Clerics" entry, it doesn't matter, because the Mortiverse won't end up losing its features in the first place. The passage says "a Cleric" that violates its deity's code. The Mortiverse isn't a Cleric, it merely has the features of a Cleric and so can't lose its features as per the Ex-Clerics rule, as Ex-Clerics is not a class feature. Impossible as per the OP. Pun-Pun couldn't be a deity with the Mortiverse mentioned in his religion, as that would require the Mortiverse to have influenced Pun-Pun's multiverse in some way. Pun-Pun is a racial deity. Race: Pun-Pun. Mortiverse is not Pun-Pun. That good enough for you?
Puritan13 12-05-07, 01:43 PM	DIE THREAD!! DIE!!! please just let this thread die...
PrinceOfTheVoid 12-05-07, 01:52 PM	Sorry, it has aleph-null hp; you'll need something a little stronger than power word: kill to deal with this thread. Besides, even if you kill it, it just reconstitutes on its home plane instantly.
Puritan13 12-05-07, 02:30 PM	But this thread hurts my soul.
BillTheManiac 12-05-07, 03:45 PM	But this thread hurts my soul. maybe you shouldn't read it.
Puritan13 12-05-07, 06:41 PM	Just trying to inject a little humor into a thread that appears to be just bickering. Humor doesn't always translate well on internet boards unless you use smilies like :P or :D or ;) or :heehee or especially :rofl: For what it's worth, my money is on Pun Pun. Seeing as he is built using material closer to core rules. Also, there is a reason and a method to how he gets his power. Mortiverse simply is/was/will be. Total DM fiat.
BillTheManiac 12-05-07, 08:50 PM	Just trying to inject a little humor into a thread that appears to be just bickering. Humor doesn't always translate well on internet boards unless you use smilies like :P or :D or ;) or :heehee or especially :rofl: For what it's worth, my money is on Pun Pun. Seeing as he is built using material closer to core rules. Also, there is a reason and a method to how he gets his power. Mortiverse simply is/was/will be. Total DM fiat. Which is cooler is completely separate from who will win. Pun-Pun is cooler, but Morty was made by someoneorother so they could have an infinite uber critter without "cheese".
Buugipopuu 12-06-07, 08:46 AM	Pun-Pun is a racial deity. Race: Pun-Pun. Mortiverse is not Pun-Pun. That good enough for you? Pun-Pun isn't a race. Even if Pun-Pun were to specify whatever race he was as a requirement, Epic Transform spells can change your race, so the Mortiverse can trivially meet any race requirement. The Mortiverse is also the racial deity of every race (Omneity: All portfolios), so it has an easy claim to belong to any race you can name.
BillTheManiac 12-06-07, 12:23 PM	Pun-Pun isn't a race. Even if Pun-Pun were to specify whatever race he was as a requirement, Epic Transform spells can change your race, so the Mortiverse can trivially meet any race requirement. The Mortiverse is also the racial deity of every race (Omneity: All portfolios), so it has an easy claim to belong to any race you can name. I have an even better plan. Acts that go against Pun-Pun's code? Existing. That'll do it.
Buugipopuu 12-06-07, 12:37 PM	I have an even better plan. Acts that go against Pun-Pun's code? Existing. That'll do it. As it turns out, the Mortiverse doesn't actually lose class features from violating its deity's code, so it doesn't matter what you set the code to. Re-reading the passage in the "Ex-Clerics" entry, it doesn't matter, because the Mortiverse won't end up losing its features in the first place. The passage says "a Cleric" that violates its deity's code. The Mortiverse isn't a Cleric, it merely has the features of a Cleric and so can't lose its features as per the Ex-Clerics rule, as Ex-Clerics is not a class feature.
BillTheManiac 12-06-07, 02:01 PM	All the features say "a cleric". If you read it that way you can't gain any of the features. You know, "A cleric can turn undead" and stuff.
CrimsonDeath 12-06-07, 09:20 PM	All the features say "a cleric". If you read it that way you can't gain any of the features. You know, "A cleric can turn undead" and stuff. Actually, I think that goes to the "creature X" argument. If you go that direction, Pun-Pun can't use Manipulate Form in the first place because he's not a Sarruhk.
BillTheManiac 12-07-07, 07:35 AM	Actually, I think that goes to the "creature X" argument. If you go that direction, Pun-Pun can't use Manipulate Form in the first place because he's not a Sarruhk. True. My point is, you don't read it that way. You read it [Someone].
Brian_Boitano 12-07-07, 07:57 AM	Why do Pun-Pun and the Mortiverse hate each other so much? Can't they just get along / perhaps share a flat together in Soho?
BillTheManiac 12-07-07, 09:09 AM	That's technically Pun-Pun's plan. Diplomance the heck out of Morty so they can just be friends.
Buugipopuu 12-11-07, 07:16 PM	All the features say "a cleric". If you read it that way you can't gain any of the features. You know, "A cleric can turn undead" and stuff. All the features say that, but having the class features of an nth level cleric means one has the features as if one was an nth level cleric, effectively substituting whatever has those features for "a cleric". "Ex Clerics" is not a class feature, and so isn't included in the set of things for which that substitution is made.
ElyasRavenwood 12-11-07, 08:34 PM	Who is this kobolt who has gone through apotheosis? Who is Pun Pun? Thanks
CrimsonDeath 12-11-07, 09:07 PM	Who is this kobolt who has gone through apotheosis? Who is Pun Pun? Thanks This guy. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) Except this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14403106&postcount=2978) is how he does it now.
larry_the_titan 12-12-07, 08:43 AM	This guy. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) Except this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14403106&postcount=2978) is how he does it now. Some one really needs to make an Intro to Pun Pun Thread with a overview of his abilities and a history of how he came into being. A great deal of time has past on that thread and I am sure a lot of new posters have no clue what the older posters mean when we talk of Pun Pun. I am thinking of doing this myself but I don't think I could do it justice.
Reag 12-12-07, 01:13 PM	Epic version of Nystul's Magic Aura that makes Pun-Pun register to all senses as a lie. Morty can't detect him unless he lowers Soothsayer, in which case Pun-Pun Bluffs him to friendliness.
BillTheManiac 12-12-07, 05:13 PM	Epic version of Nystul's Magic Aura that makes Pun-Pun register to all senses as a lie. Morty can't detect him unless he lowers Soothsayer, in which case Pun-Pun Bluffs him to friendliness. Pun-Pun can't talk to Mortiverse. A cleric’s deity influences his alignment Therefore, the "alignment" section is a class feature. What's morty's alignment? PP was originally a paladin so he's probably still LG. Might have lost the G for consorting with so much evil.
CrimsonDeath 12-12-07, 07:43 PM	Therefore, the "alignment" section is a class feature. What's morty's alignment? PP was originally a paladin so he's probably still LG. Might have lost the G for consorting with so much evil. Pun-Pun's original class and alignment (and gender, come to think of it) are indeterminable from his current state. He could've started as a level 1 Gnome Paladin or a Kobold Wizard 7/Master Transmogrifist 10. I think the original formulation was a level 7 Kobold Psion (Egoist). If he went with the level 1 Ascension, he definitely could not have been Chaotic Evil to begin with (or else Pazuzu would've eaten him), and he definitely could not have been Lawful when he received the first Candle of Invocation (because Pazuzu would've shifted his alignment toward Chaotic), but that's about all we know if he took that ascension path (and we don't know that he did). His alignment could have changed in the interim, of course.
BillTheManiac 12-12-07, 10:06 PM	Pun-Pun's original class and alignment (and gender, come to think of it) are indeterminable from his current state. He could've started as a level 1 Gnome Paladin or a Kobold Wizard 7/Master Transmogrifist 10. I think the original formulation was a level 7 Kobold Psion (Egoist). If he went with the level 1 Ascension, he definitely could not have been Chaotic Evil to begin with (or else Pazuzu would've eaten him), and he definitely could not have been Lawful when he received the first Candle of Invocation (because Pazuzu would've shifted his alignment toward Chaotic), but that's about all we know if he took that ascension path (and we don't know that he did). His alignment could have changed in the interim, of course. Paladin is cooler.
Buugipopuu 12-13-07, 07:52 AM	Epic version of Nystul's Magic Aura that makes Pun-Pun register to all senses as a lie. Morty can't detect him unless he lowers Soothsayer, in which case Pun-Pun Bluffs him to friendliness. The spell effect will fizzle the moment the Mortiverse enters the Universe occupied by Pun-Pun, thanks to its antimagic field. Not too useful. Therefore, the "alignment" section is a class feature. What's morty's alignment? PP was originally a paladin so he's probably still LG. Might have lost the G for consorting with so much evil. The Mortiverse is beyond alignment, as it has Apostasy. Its alignment is generally considered to be whatever is more convenient at any particular instant.
BillTheManiac 12-13-07, 09:30 AM	The spell effect will fizzle the moment the Mortiverse enters the Universe occupied by Pun-Pun, thanks to its antimagic field. Not too useful. The Mortiverse is beyond alignment, as it has Apostasy. Its alignment is generally considered to be whatever is more convenient at any particular instant. kind of like The Word? So you get my Wis and DvR, as well as your Cha, ranks, and DvR I think there's a tatoo where I get all my abilities or so, though, so I'm higher then you. I think I'm still ahead.
CrimsonDeath 12-13-07, 01:47 PM	The spell effect will fizzle the moment the Mortiverse enters the Universe occupied by Pun-Pun, thanks to its antimagic field. Not too useful. Wasn't there a feat-- Initiate of Mystra or something-- that lets your spells continue to function in an antimagic field?
Buugipopuu 12-14-07, 09:00 AM	Wasn't there a feat-- Initiate of Mystra or something-- that lets your spells continue to function in an antimagic field? It's also a Dead Magic zone, so that won't help. kind of like The Word? Pretty much. So you get my Wis and DvR, as well as your Cha, ranks, and DvR I think there's a tatoo where I get all my abilities or so, though, so I'm higher then you. I think I'm still ahead. I can also craft an item instantaneously with an Enhancement bonus equal to my DvR on it, which I increase in power by stacking Soniferous (Cosmic Ability, double the power of an artefact, double double = triple) a number of times equal to my DvR, effectively giving me a +DvR^2 bonus to the skill.
PrinceOfTheVoid 12-14-07, 09:10 AM	SInce when did this thread go from Pun Pun versus the Mortiverse to BilltheManiac versus Buugipopuu? I only ask because I keep seeing "I can do this; I can do that" instead of "Pun PUn can do this; Mortiverse can do that"
BillTheManiac 12-14-07, 09:23 AM	I can also craft an item instantaneously with an Enhancement bonus equal to my DvR on it, which I increase in power by stacking Soniferous (Cosmic Ability, double the power of an artefact, double double = triple) a number of times equal to my DvR, effectively giving me a +DvR^2 bonus to the skill. Like effects don't stack. It has a special rule, probably, though. :mad: @PrinceOfTheVoid: Both of them have the Possession ability.
CrimsonDeath 12-14-07, 02:13 PM	It's also a Dead Magic zone, so that won't help. I'd have to see the feat-- and the distinction between an Antimagic Field and a Dead Magic Zone-- to know for sure, and I don't know where to look for either.
Avatar of Kokusho 12-14-07, 09:52 PM	IIRC the Initiate of Mystra feat allows one to cast in even a dead magic zone with a CL check of 25+ spell level. Ugh, that's cheese I wouldn't even touch.
CrimsonDeath 12-14-07, 11:57 PM	IIRC the Initiate of Mystra feat allows one to cast in even a dead magic zone with a CL check of 25+ spell level. Ugh, that's cheese I wouldn't even touch. Compared to the ability to turn an entire universe into a dead-magic zone as a state-based effect, it seems pretty reasonable.
Avatar of Kokusho 12-15-07, 01:11 AM	Since you brought that up, I think that I'd vastly prefer an army of clerics who had that feat, yes.
Buugipopuu 12-16-07, 10:10 AM	Like effects don't stack. It has a special rule, probably, though. :mad: From the text of Soniferous: Special: This effect can be taken multiple times and its effects stack. Each time it is taken it either applies to a different weapon, or it can multiply the power of the same weapon even further, in this case a double- double is a triple. IIRC the Initiate of Mystra feat allows one to cast in even a dead magic zone with a CL check of 25+ spell level. A feat you say? Nullification and Divine Nullification are still in effect. The Mortiverse's aura negates all feats and divine abilities. Here's the text of Dead Zone for those who wanted it. It's a Transcendental Ability, so with prerequisites it weighs in at the equivalent of 252 Epic Feats. Getting an Aura that covers the entire Universe, with prerequisites, is 1 Omnific Ability and 3 Divine Abilities, the equivalent of 1,218 Epic Feats. A Universe-spanning Dead Zone is hence equivalent to 1,470 Epic Feats. It's actually probably underpowered for its cost. 6. DEAD ZONE (SU) Annul magic. Prerequisites: Divine Aura, Numinous, Spellcraft 130 Ranks. Benefit: Your aura radiates a Dead Magic effect that does not inhibit your items or those of your allies. Special: Dead Magic is more powerful than Anti-magic and will temporarily nullify even artifacts.
BillTheManiac 12-17-07, 08:00 AM	From the text of Soniferous: A feat you say? Nullification and Divine Nullification are still in effect. The Mortiverse's aura negates all feats and divine abilities. Here's the text of Dead Zone for those who wanted it. It's a Transcendental Ability, so with prerequisites it weighs in at the equivalent of 252 Epic Feats. Getting an Aura that covers the entire Universe, with prerequisites, is 1 Omnific Ability and 3 Divine Abilities, the equivalent of 1,218 Epic Feats. A Universe-spanning Dead Zone is hence equivalent to 1,470 Epic Feats. It's actually probably underpowered for its cost. 6. DEAD ZONE (SU) Annul magic. Prerequisites: Divine Aura, Numinous, Spellcraft 130 Ranks. Benefit: Your aura radiates a Dead Magic effect that does not inhibit your items or those of your allies. Special: Dead Magic is more powerful than Anti-magic and will temporarily nullify even artifacts. Does somniferous say "weapon"? I don't think a +skill item is a weapon.
Buugipopuu 12-17-07, 02:31 PM	Does somniferous say "weapon"? I don't think a +skill item is a weapon.[/QUOTE] I see nothing wrong with putting +skill bonuses on a weapon. A +Infinity Everdancing 100% Strong Symmetric Matter Xona-Titanic Fullblade of +Infinity to all skills is a perfectly valid artefact. The 1.5x cost multiplier for inappropriate body slot limitations is insignificant at this level. (especially when the item in question is crafted instantaneously from experience leeched from every being in the Universe and wealth spontaneously generated by Alter Reality)
PrinceOfTheVoid 12-17-07, 02:56 PM	100% Strong Symmetric Matter Xona-Titanic Fullblade Exactly how much base damage is that (without the +infinity)?
BillTheManiac 12-17-07, 04:30 PM	Does somniferous say "weapon"? I don't think a +skill item is a weapon. I see nothing wrong with putting +skill bonuses on a weapon. A +Infinity Everdancing 100% Strong Symmetric Matter Xona-Titanic Fullblade of +Infinity to all skills is a perfectly valid artefact. The 1.5x cost multiplier for inappropriate body slot limitations is insignificant at this level. (especially when the item in question is crafted instantaneously from experience leeched from every being in the Universe and wealth spontaneously generated by Alter Reality)[/QUOTE] But somniferous refers to THE enhancement bonus on a weapon, not AN enhancement bonus. (unless it does, of course).
larry_the_titan 12-19-07, 07:33 AM	I am finding this debate more and more annoying. I find that the debate isn't between equals but really a debate between bickering gamers. 1st Mortiverse is a monster and not a playable character. 2nd It comes from an unconvertible system. 3rd Everyone doesn't know the system that Mortiverse comes from. (With what I have seen of it, I don't care to learn it.) I will drop my hatred of this creature and thread when the following is done. 1. You find a way to duplicate one or the others creature entire abilities and stats into either system. (That in itself would end the bickering but won't happen.) 2. You find a way to make Mortiverse a first level character with in the Immortals handbook with its current power level in tack. (This won't happen either.) 3. You remember the simple fact that with knowledge check (Use to be thought a weak skill) in D&D Pun Pun became the most powerful character in D&D History. Something you might also consider is that Pun Pun is still a 1st level character and has never needed to up his Level and thus is not an Epic character even though he is able to pull off anything Epic he wants to.
BillTheManiac 12-19-07, 11:46 AM	I am finding this debate more and more annoying. I find that the debate isn't between equals but really a debate between bickering gamers. 1st Mortiverse is a monster and not a playable character. Not like 99% of all D&D battles are between monsters and characters, right? 2nd It comes from an unconvertible system. It actually works pretty well. 3rd Everyone doesn't know the system that Mortiverse comes from. (With what I have seen of it, I don't care to learn it.) No answer to that one. I will drop my hatred of this creature and thread when the following is done. 1. You find a way to duplicate one or the others creature entire abilities and stats into either system. (That in itself would end the bickering but won't happen.) We did. Both ways. Before I even made this thread. That's why I made this thread. 2. You find a way to make Mortiverse a first level character with in the Immortals handbook with its current power level in tack. (This won't happen either.) The point of this thread is that we let Morty have his uber IH-ness, but not cheese. So we see which is more powerful - cheese or legalized DM fiat. 3. You remember the simple fact that with knowledge check (Use to be thought a weak skill) in D&D Pun Pun became the most powerful character in D&D History. I remember. Something you might also consider is that Pun Pun is still a 1st level character and has never needed to up his Level and thus is not an Epic character even though he is able to pull off anything Epic he wants to.
CrimsonDeath 12-19-07, 05:23 PM	Something you might also consider is that Pun Pun is still a 1st level character and has never needed to up his Level and thus is not an Epic character even though he is able to pull off anything Epic he wants to. Actually, he is an Epic character because he has 20+ HD.
larry_the_titan 12-19-07, 07:11 PM	Actually, he is an Epic character because he has 20+ HD. Actually since he never really gains levels he doesn't gain every thing that goes with class progression normally. He won't gain BAB, feat/level or skill points to my knowledge. I don't completely remember the full method of how he increases his HD but since he doesn't gain levels he wouldn't get anything that the character levels would normally give a 20th+ level character.
Buugipopuu 12-20-07, 08:31 AM	Exactly how much base damage is that (without the +infinity)? (8.85443716*10^21)d10, I think. And, just to clear things up, the full text of Soniferous: 83. SONIFEROUS (SU) Unlock the hidden power of ancient artifacts. Prerequisites: Int 70. Benefit: The power of one artifact you wield is doubled. Thus, enhancement bonuses will be doubled, as will all numerical facets of the item. This ability does not create new powers within a magic item, it only augments existing ones. Special: This effect can be taken multiple times and its effects stack. Each time it is taken it either applies to a different weapon, or it can multiply the power of the same weapon even further, in this case a double- double is a triple. Emphasis mine. It specifically mentions doubling all "numerical facets", and refers to "enhancement bonuses" in the plural, so it does in fact double all of the weapon's enhancement bonuses, not just the one to attack and damage. It probably also doubles a lot of other things, but that's more up to interpretation.
BillTheManiac 12-20-07, 01:24 PM	(8.85443716*10^21)d10, I think. And, just to clear things up, the full text of Soniferous: Emphasis mine. It specifically mentions doubling all "numerical facets", and refers to "enhancement bonuses" in the plural, so it does in fact double all of the weapon's enhancement bonuses, not just the one to attack and damage. It probably also doubles a lot of other things, but that's more up to interpretation. Gotta :love: that sloppy writing. Starts with "item" and ends with "weapon". Kind of like ExPH with the psicrystals, with "level" and "manifester level" used interchangeably. I'm going to stop arguing. This is getting too tough. If someone else wants to pick it up, they can.
larry_the_titan 12-20-07, 01:34 PM	I am still kind of in the dark about all of the stuff that comes from Immortals handbook but if you translated Pun Pun over with all of his abilities, can't he just gain all the options over there to?
BillTheManiac 12-20-07, 01:58 PM	I am still kind of in the dark about all of the stuff that comes from Immortals handbook but if you translated Pun Pun over with all of his abilities, can't he just gain all the options over there to? Could you please read the first post of the thread?
CrimsonDeath 12-20-07, 03:45 PM	Actually since he never really gains levels he doesn't gain every thing that goes with class progression normally. He won't gain BAB, feat/level or skill points to my knowledge. I don't completely remember the full method of how he increases his HD but since he doesn't gain levels he wouldn't get anything that the character levels would normally give a 20th+ level character. There are a variety of ways to raise his HD. Off the top of my head, the Barhest's feed ability (using PAO to make the humanoids to kill and devour). He won't get any class features, but he willl get BAB, skill points, and feats. Not that those matter in most cases, since he can give himself bonus feats and racial bonuses on skills, plus his ability scores are literally infinite.
larry_the_titan 12-20-07, 06:10 PM	A first level kobold paladin achieves ascension on round 1 billion of the universe. One hundred rounds later, Mortiverse appears in Pun-Pun's multiverse. All of the planes in Pun-Pun's multiverse were completely unfettered by Mortiverse's influence. Pun-Pun is barred from IH material. Mortiverse is barred from anything that has appeared on the TO boards. These are the only creatures that shall be referred to as "Pun-Pun" and "Mortiverse" for this competition. Ordinal mathematics is used, rather then cardinal, because it makes more sense then IH. The loser, if decided, gains access to the other's material and then they duke it out again. Alright I read it I don't see how its fair that both are barred from using the other games material. Because with that in effect the battle isn't between which is the most powerful creature but what source is more broken. And at the moment IH is winning by a land slide and I have to say I don't think I ever want to touch the book. And just remember this is from a guy who plays a planar shepherd.
Wintermute_ 12-20-07, 06:35 PM	Alright I read it I don't see how its fair that both are barred from using the other games material. Because with that in effect the battle isn't between which is the most powerful creature but what source is more broken. And at the moment IH is winning by a land slide and I have to say I don't think I ever want to touch the book. And just remember this is from a guy who plays a planar shepherd. This thread is seriously the worst advertisement for Ascension ever. It's a book for play as gods, people. And it's actually quite good at that. For the levels that Ascension will see the most use at (say Greater God and under), it's actually pretty well-balanced. At the levels under discussion here (High Lord+) of course it's stupid-powerful. Seriously, what the hell kind of abilities should sentient multiverses that make overgods look like ants have?
CrimsonDeath 12-20-07, 07:23 PM	Seriously, what the hell kind of abilities should sentient multiverses that make overgods look like ants have? Abilities that allow them to interact with other beings of the same power level in a meaningful manner. Most of the abilities the Mortiverse has used in this thread and the other one don't allow the Mortiverse to do things; rather, they prevent creatures around it from doing things. And I agree, if this was intended as an advertisement for the IH, it's a very bad one.
Wintermute_ 12-20-07, 07:31 PM	Abilities that allow them to interact with other beings of the same power level in a meaningful manner. Most of the abilities the Mortiverse has used in this thread and the other one don't allow the Mortiverse to do things; rather, they prevent creatures around it from doing things. And I agree, if this was intended as an advertisement for the IH, it's a very bad one. Well, you have to remember that other High Lords will have the same sorts (or the same) powers Mortiverse has. Interesting comment about how many IH abilities just nullify other things, though. I agree that it could be a problem, but like I said, most of them wouldn't see much play, probably.
Buugipopuu 12-21-07, 08:21 AM	Gotta :love: that sloppy writing. Starts with "item" and ends with "weapon". Kind of like ExPH with the psicrystals, with "level" and "manifester level" used interchangeably. I assumed that because it had to be an item you wielded, a weapon is the only sane choice, since most other things don't give their bonuses when wielded as a weapon. You could go around bashing monsters with your +Infinity Belt of Strength, but I don't think that was what was intended.
CrimsonDeath 12-22-07, 12:35 AM	I assumed that because it had to be an item you wielded, a weapon is the only sane choice, since most other things don't give their bonuses when wielded as a weapon. You could go around bashing monsters with your +Infinity Belt of Strength, but I don't think that was what was intended. A readied shield might qualify, depending on what exactly "wield" means, but many shields are also weapons anyway. (Bucklers and tower shields aren't, though, so the distinction does matter.)
BillTheManiac 12-22-07, 09:32 AM	Alright I read it I don't see how its fair that both are barred from using the other games material. Because with that in effect the battle isn't between which is the most powerful creature but what source is more broken. And at the moment IH is winning by a land slide and I have to say I don't think I ever want to touch the book. And just remember this is from a guy who plays a planar shepherd. Because if they were, both could emulate the other. This is why this thread is "with sane semantics". The other one died when we figured out they could both emulate the other, through epic spell cheese granting divinity on one side, and standard PP cheese on the other. I also maintain that there is no point wasting your time making stats for sentient universes. I mean, the stat block contains paragraphs and paragraphs of text, but what it means is "Mortiverse: The Mortiverse's stats are better then yours." No sane play can exist with High Lords, because no sane play could possibly exist with SENTIENT UNIVERSES. So why make rules for them?
larry_the_titan 12-22-07, 01:36 PM	@BillTheManiac, just so long as you realize that what you just said nullified the purpose of your thread's title, I will go away and hope that the thread dies of boredom. I mean the game can't have Sane Semantics if no one can match a characters power. The thing about Pun Pun is his build is so simple that anyone can achieve his power using the loop holes. Mortiverse is closer to the use of DM power's and not an actual game being if it doesn't actually have stats. D&D has a similar thing going on with the Lady of Pain though those stats may in fact be some where. I just don't know of where.
Wintermute_ 12-22-07, 09:24 PM	Because if they were, both could emulate the other. This is why this thread is "with sane semantics". The other one died when we figured out they could both emulate the other, through epic spell cheese granting divinity on one side, and standard PP cheese on the other. I also maintain that there is no point wasting your time making stats for sentient universes. I mean, the stat block contains paragraphs and paragraphs of text, but what it means is "Mortiverse: The Mortiverse's stats are better then yours." No sane play can exist with High Lords, because no sane play could possibly exist with SENTIENT UNIVERSES. So why make rules for them? Sure, if you want to be boring and generally no fun.
CrimsonDeath 12-22-07, 11:29 PM	D&D has a similar thing going on with the Lady of Pain though those stats may in fact be some where. I just don't know of where. The Lady has no official stats. A few people have written stats for her, but those stats reflect how powerful those people want her to be in their campaign world. Sure, if you want to be boring and generally no fun. Oh, it's perfectly possible to have fun without playing a sentient universe. (I've had fun with a level 1 Bard.)
Wintermute_ 12-22-07, 11:53 PM	Oh, it's perfectly possible to have fun without playing a sentient universe. (I've had fun with a level 1 Bard.) Well, of course. It's also fun to play a sentient universe (or anything in between the two). I did not mean to imply that supra-epic level was the only good way to play D&D (that would be silly).
BillTheManiac 12-23-07, 09:32 AM	Well, of course. It's also fun to play a sentient universe (or anything in between the two). I did not mean to imply that supra-epic level was the only good way to play D&D (that would be silly). The problem is, say, Transtemporal. The ability says "you win against everyone who doesn't have Slipstream". Now everyone the party faces must have Slipstream, or die without getting an action. If you have Unbounded/Infinite Constitution, you are immune to damage against anyone who doesn't have Unbounded/Infinite Strength. You're only vulnerable to save-or-dies, which you're probably immune to, so now all enemies have Unbounded/Infinite Strength. You see where this is going? Now all enemies have all your cool uber abilities, and you're back to statblocks. All these cool rules, they are specifically designed to cancel each other out. It says that in IH, that they do.
CrimsonDeath 12-23-07, 01:49 PM	Where does a sentient universe stand? When I play a Human or an Elf or a Dwarf, I know where he is. He's in a town, or a forest, or a cave, or whatever. Where do High Lords go adventuring?
SilchasRuin 12-25-07, 05:27 PM	They envision virtual worlds where they are represented by low-level avatars who portray the sentient universes vast power by representing certain subsets like magic, combat and sneaking around stealing stuff. Recursion rules!