Question on seeds. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question on seeds. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thorofasgard13
11-26-07, 02:02 PM I am trying to create a seed. My question is the original spell that I am trying to create a seed from has an Xp cost, does the seed then automatically have an XP cost or is it removed unless you put it in via the spell creation rules?
BillTheManiac
11-26-07, 03:16 PM Translate it into a mitigating factor, then add the number rather than subtract.
thorofasgard13
11-26-07, 10:23 PM oh ok that sounds like a good idea. Is there any actual rules on how to deal with this or is this kind of a quick patch for the problem?
rob_douglas
11-27-07, 12:52 AM They are more guidelines than rules. It is sort of just reverse engineering what is out there. The seeds should not have any inherent mitigating factors - those are the things you can use as you see fit to design the spell.

Therefore, you can reason out that an Anyspell seed (allows you to mimic any 6th level spell - ala Limited Wish) would have a base DC of 27 (10+level*2+3) + 3 (300XP cost) = 30. To raise the spells you could duplicate to 8th level (ala Wish) you need to get to DC 78 (10+9*2+3+50), so that is +24 per spell level duplicated. That means any Anyspell that could duplicate 15th level spells (including any metamagic) would be DC 30 + 24*9 = 246. Before mitigating factors.

ROB
evangelion1010
11-27-07, 12:55 PM Not to critique overly when I don't have a good solution, but that is an absolutely stupid decision on epic spells.... even if it is 100% accurate with regards to the logic the game designers had. Even optimizing a character, short of having a completely insane (read arbitrarily high, see pun-pun) int modifier, won't have spellcraft DCs that are high enough. I suppose marshal cohort + item familiar + item of + 30 competence bonus could get you reasonably high... but those are one trick ponies - good to get you to the mid 100's, maybe low 200's, but after that... you're pulling hairs. Best to have the DM decide on more reasonable DCs than have you look up every cheap way to meet the 'legal' DCs. (See vengeful gaze of god)

thorofasgard13's solution is probably the best one you'll find.
Epic spells are fun in theory, but short of DM intervention they fall horribly short in practice (in the same way that wizards says a + 10 cha - 4 str, -2 con - 2 wis race is fine) - it's horrid for a fighter, great for a sorcerer. You'll find epic spells tend to do the same (direct damage spells are especially horrible) and since the book's release little has been done to correct the issue.
sin_vraal
12-05-07, 07:33 PM Not to critique overly when I don't have a good solution, but that is an absolutely stupid decision on epic spells.... even if it is 100% accurate with regards to the logic the game designers had. Even optimizing a character, short of having a completely insane (read arbitrarily high, see pun-pun) int modifier, won't have spellcraft DCs that are high enough. I suppose marshal cohort + item familiar + item of + 30 competence bonus could get you reasonably high... but those are one trick ponies - good to get you to the mid 100's, maybe low 200's, but after that... you're pulling hairs. Best to have the DM decide on more reasonable DCs than have you look up every cheap way to meet the 'legal' DCs. (See vengeful gaze of god)

thorofasgard13's solution is probably the best one you'll find.
Epic spells are fun in theory, but short of DM intervention they fall horribly short in practice (in the same way that wizards says a + 10 cha - 4 str, -2 con - 2 wis race is fine) - it's horrid for a fighter, great for a sorcerer. You'll find epic spells tend to do the same (direct damage spells are especially horrible) and since the book's release little has been done to correct the issue.

I think most epic spells are just that, epic... There isnt really any need / reason to spell 1Million+ gold pieces to blow someone away with an epic spell when you can do it for the cost of a non epic scroll to put in your book and have metamagic do the damaging work for you.

Taking the XP hit and casting time increases can lower most of your high DC epic spells to reasonable levels.

vengeful gaze of god is perfectly reasonabl at its DC. backlash dice damage is limited by your level.

you'd have to be over 100th level to cast it anyway (b/c you can only add a certain amount of backlash dependant on your level)

So I dont think they are a horrible way of doing things at all. In fact I wish you could create epic spells at all levels for lesser effects. with dnd 3.0 and later (4th will be even worse, if possible) nearly every spell in the game has to do with combat.

Epic spells let you do all kinds of cool stuff without killing people!
- Make your own race to fawn over you!
- make your own island resort!
- Freeze your planets location to live in permanent darkness! (the illithids dream come true)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thorofasgard13 11-26-07, 02:02 PM	I am trying to create a seed. My question is the original spell that I am trying to create a seed from has an Xp cost, does the seed then automatically have an XP cost or is it removed unless you put it in via the spell creation rules?
BillTheManiac 11-26-07, 03:16 PM	Translate it into a mitigating factor, then add the number rather than subtract.
thorofasgard13 11-26-07, 10:23 PM	oh ok that sounds like a good idea. Is there any actual rules on how to deal with this or is this kind of a quick patch for the problem?
rob_douglas 11-27-07, 12:52 AM	They are more guidelines than rules. It is sort of just reverse engineering what is out there. The seeds should not have any inherent mitigating factors - those are the things you can use as you see fit to design the spell. Therefore, you can reason out that an Anyspell seed (allows you to mimic any 6th level spell - ala Limited Wish) would have a base DC of 27 (10+level2+3) + 3 (300XP cost) = 30. To raise the spells you could duplicate to 8th level (ala Wish) you need to get to DC 78 (10+92+3+50), so that is +24 per spell level duplicated. That means any Anyspell that could duplicate 15th level spells (including any metamagic) would be DC 30 + 24*9 = 246. Before mitigating factors. ROB
evangelion1010 11-27-07, 12:55 PM	Not to critique overly when I don't have a good solution, but that is an absolutely stupid decision on epic spells.... even if it is 100% accurate with regards to the logic the game designers had. Even optimizing a character, short of having a completely insane (read arbitrarily high, see pun-pun) int modifier, won't have spellcraft DCs that are high enough. I suppose marshal cohort + item familiar + item of + 30 competence bonus could get you reasonably high... but those are one trick ponies - good to get you to the mid 100's, maybe low 200's, but after that... you're pulling hairs. Best to have the DM decide on more reasonable DCs than have you look up every cheap way to meet the 'legal' DCs. (See vengeful gaze of god) thorofasgard13's solution is probably the best one you'll find. Epic spells are fun in theory, but short of DM intervention they fall horribly short in practice (in the same way that wizards says a + 10 cha - 4 str, -2 con - 2 wis race is fine) - it's horrid for a fighter, great for a sorcerer. You'll find epic spells tend to do the same (direct damage spells are especially horrible) and since the book's release little has been done to correct the issue.
sin_vraal 12-05-07, 07:33 PM	Not to critique overly when I don't have a good solution, but that is an absolutely stupid decision on epic spells.... even if it is 100% accurate with regards to the logic the game designers had. Even optimizing a character, short of having a completely insane (read arbitrarily high, see pun-pun) int modifier, won't have spellcraft DCs that are high enough. I suppose marshal cohort + item familiar + item of + 30 competence bonus could get you reasonably high... but those are one trick ponies - good to get you to the mid 100's, maybe low 200's, but after that... you're pulling hairs. Best to have the DM decide on more reasonable DCs than have you look up every cheap way to meet the 'legal' DCs. (See vengeful gaze of god) thorofasgard13's solution is probably the best one you'll find. Epic spells are fun in theory, but short of DM intervention they fall horribly short in practice (in the same way that wizards says a + 10 cha - 4 str, -2 con - 2 wis race is fine) - it's horrid for a fighter, great for a sorcerer. You'll find epic spells tend to do the same (direct damage spells are especially horrible) and since the book's release little has been done to correct the issue. I think most epic spells are just that, epic... There isnt really any need / reason to spell 1Million+ gold pieces to blow someone away with an epic spell when you can do it for the cost of a non epic scroll to put in your book and have metamagic do the damaging work for you. Taking the XP hit and casting time increases can lower most of your high DC epic spells to reasonable levels. vengeful gaze of god is perfectly reasonabl at its DC. backlash dice damage is limited by your level. you'd have to be over 100th level to cast it anyway (b/c you can only add a certain amount of backlash dependant on your level) So I dont think they are a horrible way of doing things at all. In fact I wish you could create epic spells at all levels for lesser effects. with dnd 3.0 and later (4th will be even worse, if possible) nearly every spell in the game has to do with combat. Epic spells let you do all kinds of cool stuff without killing people! - Make your own race to fawn over you! - make your own island resort! - Freeze your planets location to live in permanent darkness! (the illithids dream come true)