Questions galore [Archive] - Wizards Community

Questions galore [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GraveDigger
11-13-07, 08:34 PM Ok so only one question really, my party is at lvl4.. Right now I think.. Anyways I intend to DM into lvl45 ish for this group and there is a wizard amongst them.. Is there anyway to make the game less crazy and balance out the other characters with out killing the wizard? Because I know epic spells are just something crazy and I wasn't thinking of that when I started making this campaign... So I don't want to entire party to feel useless when the wizard goes BOOM! It died..
Taeldrin Laesrash
11-13-07, 08:40 PM The most important thing about epic spells is that the DM has to allow them.
evangelion1010
11-27-07, 08:00 PM My advice for you... don't plan on playing to epic, certainly not that far into epic. There are several reasons for this, so i'll elaborate

1. That's 41 levels. Even gaining one a session this makes the game take almost a year at 1 game/week. If you can do that, great, but if you've got uncertainty then I'd plan on going to level 30... Long games tend to lose players, and even if they don't, it can be somewhat boring playing the same character for over at least a year.
2. Your point about the wizard vs the rest of the party would be a good point... from levels 10-20. Every level beyond epic almost everything depends on how you've built your character, and make no mistake, you do need to plan to be level 45 at or before level 5. You can have a level 45 epic character that could be taken down by 1-2 CR 30 monsters. You can have a level 20 character that can take down the toughest monster in the book (hectonhieres, CR 57) with the right planning.

By level 30 a well planned character will be immune to at least half the attacks you throw at them. Raw damage is about all that works.
Certain things are nearly impossible to reach with normal efforts, while they can be reached much easier with 1-2 questionable tricks. Armor or skill checks are a great example. Built well a character can have charisma to armor 2-3 times and one or more stats 1-2 times. A few will be unnamed bonuses, and so the character's AC will be higher than a normal character could get - consider an AC at 140 vs an AC of 70.

Consider an item familiar and the marshal - if planned well you can get 2*rank limit + 2* relevant stat + competence item, without the first two you'll be hard pressed to make up the extra difference, which will be 40-50 to a skill.

So really, unless your players know very well how to build characters (or are of the same experience level at D&D) you'll find epic is every single problem of a full caster at levels 15-20 vs a non-caster at those levels, except 3-4 times so.

My recommendation to you? Disallow excessively cheap combos, or in general something that allows one person in the party to succeed on a 2 and everyone else to fail on a 19. It takes the fun out of the game when the monster has to try to be able to hit the character with an AC 30 above the party and saves 15+ above the party, has to be able to have a decent chance of saving against the red wizard with spell focus (meaning low DC abilities are useless), and wants to be hittable by someone besides the person buffed to the ends of the earth. We get it. The rogue will never be seen, the monk never hit, the fighter never miss.. and characters become boring.

Either that or make the d20 roll a d20+d10, then a d20*2...
Tequila_Sunrise
11-27-07, 09:22 PM My first suggestion would be to not use epic spellcasting. Once your group gets to 19 + level, simply continue with spell levels as normal. 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' I say. Creating 10th + level spells is actually easier than trying to deal with the absurdities that happen with epic spellcasting.

Other than that suggestion, just be ready to fine tune monsters and encounters to your group's abilities. Wizards are great at high levels, but they can't be prepared for everything all the time. Set up encounters to take advantage of his blind spots.
Krispieman
11-28-07, 01:59 AM I agree with not using Epic Spellcasting. It's broken in the way that gives many DMs a headache. My personal solution to this is to rewrite the feat so that any character who selects is can calculate their save DCs via 1/2 Caster level + Casting Stat Modifier + Spell Level. Basically this means that from CL 22 and upwards, the save DC is better.

Because of ISC and metamagic, your wizard will still be able to use enough effective magic, just make sure both your monsters and the rest of the party are balanced. Epic really is an all or nothing game, where most encounters tend not to be against just 1 monster, but a party of them and often things will either go really well for the PCs, or not at all (in my experience).

But that's advice for when (if) you reach Epic. Planning to go to level 45 at level 4 is a rather big plan. I'd suggest telling your players that you'll play as long as its fun to continue and that this may lead them into Epic. That way your players will know to plan ahead.

K-man :cool:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GraveDigger 11-13-07, 08:34 PM	Ok so only one question really, my party is at lvl4.. Right now I think.. Anyways I intend to DM into lvl45 ish for this group and there is a wizard amongst them.. Is there anyway to make the game less crazy and balance out the other characters with out killing the wizard? Because I know epic spells are just something crazy and I wasn't thinking of that when I started making this campaign... So I don't want to entire party to feel useless when the wizard goes BOOM! It died..
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-13-07, 08:40 PM	The most important thing about epic spells is that the DM has to allow them.
evangelion1010 11-27-07, 08:00 PM	My advice for you... don't plan on playing to epic, certainly not that far into epic. There are several reasons for this, so i'll elaborate 1. That's 41 levels. Even gaining one a session this makes the game take almost a year at 1 game/week. If you can do that, great, but if you've got uncertainty then I'd plan on going to level 30... Long games tend to lose players, and even if they don't, it can be somewhat boring playing the same character for over at least a year. 2. Your point about the wizard vs the rest of the party would be a good point... from levels 10-20. Every level beyond epic almost everything depends on how you've built your character, and make no mistake, you do need to plan to be level 45 at or before level 5. You can have a level 45 epic character that could be taken down by 1-2 CR 30 monsters. You can have a level 20 character that can take down the toughest monster in the book (hectonhieres, CR 57) with the right planning. By level 30 a well planned character will be immune to at least half the attacks you throw at them. Raw damage is about all that works. Certain things are nearly impossible to reach with normal efforts, while they can be reached much easier with 1-2 questionable tricks. Armor or skill checks are a great example. Built well a character can have charisma to armor 2-3 times and one or more stats 1-2 times. A few will be unnamed bonuses, and so the character's AC will be higher than a normal character could get - consider an AC at 140 vs an AC of 70. Consider an item familiar and the marshal - if planned well you can get 2rank limit + 2 relevant stat + competence item, without the first two you'll be hard pressed to make up the extra difference, which will be 40-50 to a skill. So really, unless your players know very well how to build characters (or are of the same experience level at D&D) you'll find epic is every single problem of a full caster at levels 15-20 vs a non-caster at those levels, except 3-4 times so. My recommendation to you? Disallow excessively cheap combos, or in general something that allows one person in the party to succeed on a 2 and everyone else to fail on a 19. It takes the fun out of the game when the monster has to try to be able to hit the character with an AC 30 above the party and saves 15+ above the party, has to be able to have a decent chance of saving against the red wizard with spell focus (meaning low DC abilities are useless), and wants to be hittable by someone besides the person buffed to the ends of the earth. We get it. The rogue will never be seen, the monk never hit, the fighter never miss.. and characters become boring. Either that or make the d20 roll a d20+d10, then a d20*2...
Tequila_Sunrise 11-27-07, 09:22 PM	My first suggestion would be to not use epic spellcasting. Once your group gets to 19 + level, simply continue with spell levels as normal. 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' I say. Creating 10th + level spells is actually easier than trying to deal with the absurdities that happen with epic spellcasting. Other than that suggestion, just be ready to fine tune monsters and encounters to your group's abilities. Wizards are great at high levels, but they can't be prepared for everything all the time. Set up encounters to take advantage of his blind spots.
Krispieman 11-28-07, 01:59 AM	I agree with not using Epic Spellcasting. It's broken in the way that gives many DMs a headache. My personal solution to this is to rewrite the feat so that any character who selects is can calculate their save DCs via 1/2 Caster level + Casting Stat Modifier + Spell Level. Basically this means that from CL 22 and upwards, the save DC is better. Because of ISC and metamagic, your wizard will still be able to use enough effective magic, just make sure both your monsters and the rest of the party are balanced. Epic really is an all or nothing game, where most encounters tend not to be against just 1 monster, but a party of them and often things will either go really well for the PCs, or not at all (in my experience). But that's advice for when (if) you reach Epic. Planning to go to level 45 at level 4 is a rather big plan. I'd suggest telling your players that you'll play as long as its fun to continue and that this may lead them into Epic. That way your players will know to plan ahead. K-man :cool: