queston concerning "spells per day" [Archive] - Wizards Community

queston concerning "spells per day" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElyasRavenwood
09-11-07, 07:21 PM I have a quick queston. If you are a single classed wizard, or sorcerer, of a race that has no level adjustment, does your spell progression in the "spells per day" end at 20 level? When you are 21 level, I think your caster level continues to improve, but your "spells per day" stop. Is that correct?
What if you are playing a race with a level adjustment like a drow for example, when you become 21 level does your "spells per day" continue or stop when your ECL rises from 20 t0 21 level?

For that matter, what if you had four levels of say rogue, and by 20 level you are a 4 level rouge and 16 level wizard, would your "spells per day" stop once you reached 21 level? would you be stuck with the spells per day of a 16 level wizard, and thus be confined to 8 level spells? or would you progress?

Any help would be appreciated, thanks
BillTheManiac
09-11-07, 07:40 PM correct.
IDK.
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-11-07, 08:31 PM Incorrect. Your spells per day are dependent on class level alone, not ECL.
andinel
09-11-07, 08:32 PM Your spells per day/spells known (if you have them) stop advancing on their own when you hit the maximum level of the class that gives them, virtually (i.e. by prestige classes that give "+1 level" for spellcasting) or actually (by reaching the max level for the class). Even if you have a level adjustment, if you're not at the class's max non-epic level, you can still advance your spellcasting by gaining levels in the class.
BillTheManiac
09-11-07, 09:02 PM Related note: What happens if you play a wizard 20/archmage 5? Do you sacrifice 2-3 epic feats to get abilities you normally pay 1 ordinary feat for? And you technically have 25th level wizard casting. I would houserule that anyone with 20th level wizard casting can take epic wizard levels.
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-11-07, 11:15 PM What do you mean? There's a nonepic feat in Complete Arcane that gets you a spell slot. Some feats may be similar to some of the abilities, but the abilities are better.

As to the Epic Wizard thing: The epic progressions are specifically for class levels 21+. Your house rule is like saying a Wizard 15/Archmage 5 is suddenly a Wizard 21/Archmage 5.
BillTheManiac
09-12-07, 07:17 AM Archmage as a class sacrifices 5 levels for 5 abilities and 5 level s of wizard spellcasting. A wizard 20/archmage 5 will get only the 5 abilities, not the 5 levels of wizard spellcasting. That's not balanced.
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-12-07, 09:22 AM Archmage as a class sacrifices 5 levels for 5 abilities and 5 level s of wizard spellcasting. A wizard 20/archmage 5 will get only the 5 abilities, not the 5 levels of wizard spellcasting. That's not balanced.

:confused:

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
ElyasRavenwood
09-12-07, 03:46 PM Thank you Bill the Mechanic and Taeldrin, both for your responses.
However I am still a little confused. Bill, you say I am Correct, and Taledrin, I am incorrect. Is this simply a matter of interpetation, and DM Fiat that a characters "spells per day" end when the character is 20 level, or weather they progress?
Tank you for taking the time to answer. What does the DMG say? I have read it and it seems contradictory to me. In one part it says Spells per day do not advance for spell casters once they reach epic level, and in another part of the same section it mentions the option of picking up another class, and you woudl get new spells per day per your new class meaning that you can accrue more spells per day, in another class however, implying that 21 level isnt the final barrier to aquiring more spells per day. Well there we are.

Well I suppose its all a moot point, since there is a new edition around the corner, and the powers that be are not encouraging conversion.
Thank you agian
danielmayer
09-12-07, 05:16 PM Hi, Elyas,
Yes, that was a little bit confusing.

1) The spell progression is class-dependent. So a F5/W26 has full spells of a W20 and a caster level of 26. (edit: found reference: Epic Level Handbook, p.7: "this book expands each class's progression of class features beyond 20th level[/b]", and, btw, the headline says "CLASS Features"...)
2) If he has that nice non-epic feat called "Practiced Spellcaster", he'd have a caster level of 30. (now you have to look up why only 30 :) )
3) A PC can be a W20/Clr20 and thus have full spells per day of both classes.
4) Taking Archmage is dependent of the rules you take, because that changed from 3.0 to 3.5-Ed.:
a) 3.0 says "no caster progression *and* lost spells for the secrets
b) 3.5 says "normal wiz/sor progression *but* lost spells for secrets
5) No. 3) is the cause why many players and DMs have problems with the Mystic Theurge and another class I can't remember: The give spell progression in both arcane and divine with each level. So a F5/W3/Clr3/MT10 would have spells as 13th-lvl cleric and 13th-lvl wizard, casting in both at perhaps 18th-lvl caster-lvl (taking the feat 2x...).
6) While the rules give every freedom, I would restrict the stacking effects to different types of "magic". I won't allow a player to take sorceror and wizard-lvls, but that'd be another topic.
7) Feats are charakter-level progressions, by every third. So a W20/Acm5 is a 25th-lvl-PC, having/gaining two epic feats (21st lvl, 24th lvl).

Everything clear now? ;)
BillTheManiac
09-12-07, 08:56 PM [QUOTE]5) No. 3) is the cause why many players and DMs have problems with the Mystic Theurge and another class I can't remember: The give spell progression in both arcane and divine with each level. So a F5/W3/Clr3/MT10 would have spells as 13th-lvl cleric and 13th-lvl wizard, casting in both at perhaps 18th-lvl caster-lvl (taking the feat 2x...).
I hear MT sucks.
6) While the rules give every freedom, I would restrict the stacking effects to different types of "magic". I won't allow a player to take sorceror and wizard-lvls, but that'd be another topic.
There's a prestige class in Complete Mage that is designed for that combo.
7) Feats are charakter-level progressions, by every third. So a W20/Acm5 is a 25th-lvl-PC, having/gaining two epic feats (21st lvl, 24th lvl).

but no bonus feats.

I'm just saying, a wizard 15/archmage 5 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level, and 1 feat. A wizard 20 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level and 2 feats. Balanced?
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-12-07, 11:15 PM Sorry if I was confusing. As Danielmayar said, the spells are class-level dependent. Your spells per day stop when you have 20 levels of wizard, or an effective 20 levels if you've taken a prestige class.

I'm just saying, a wizard 15/archmage 5 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level, and 1 feat. A wizard 20 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level and 2 feats. Balanced?

Heck yeah. The former build has Mastery of Elements, Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Arcane Reach, among other nice abilities. Surely they're better than 1 feat.
ElyasRavenwood
09-13-07, 12:38 AM Thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I understand now. The most a character can have in any one class is a 20 level spell progression. Or “spells per day” of a 20 level caster. 21 Epic level does not affect this. Thank you.

As for the Mystic Theurge, I am playing one right now in a campaign. My character is a grey elf 3rd lvl Cloistered cleric / 3rd lvl Wizard / 2nd level Mystic theurge. For feats I have 3: spell casting prodigy, and Practiced manifester x2. When another PC wizard and the NPC Dm cleric, is in the group my character is great, He can fill in lots of blanks. I usually use him as a booster/ healer with a few magic missles thrown in.
He caster level is 7th, but only having 2nd level spells sucks. I can do some creative and fun things like, using my raven familiar to deliver touch spells like cure light wounds, and I can also use Spectral hand to do the same. Being able to use a sword and long sword is pretty spiffy to. People don’t immediately peg my character as a spell caster.

Did I mention having only second level spells to work with at 7 level bites? When my character is the only arcane caster of wizard spells, my character just does not have the damage potential a 7th level wizard would. The same goes for the healing capacity of the single classed cleric. He works best helping out and supporting the other primary spell casters, but on his own he just doesn’t quite cut it.
With a +2 Base attack bonus at 7 level, I stay away far away from ranged touch attack spells. With 21 intelligence my character has buckle loads of skill points, which I have poured into knowledge skills. This fits nicely together with bardic lore. My character may not be able to bring down a 7th level beastie, but he can tell his comrades how to do so, with his knowledge checks. I also tend to stick with spells that require saving throws with a +5 intelligence modifier, it makes his spells harder to beat. His caster level is that of a 7th level caster, however his spells per day are that of a 4th level caster.
Thank you again.
danielmayer
09-13-07, 09:53 AM Hmm. As far as I understand you, you did some errors:
Wiz3/Clr3/MT2 has cleric spells as a 5th lvl cleric and thus has access to 3rd lvl spells. The same for Wiz!
If you took the feat "practiced spellcaster", *both* spell-types are cast at casterlvl 7!
So you could cast a fireball with 7d6 damage and cure serious wounds with 3d8+7. You should read again the MT-class description, I think ;)

Same for Base Attack: +2 from Clr3 +1 Wiz3 +1 MT2 = +4 base.
A pure Clr7 would have bab +5, so you PC is quite a punch for his PC-lvl.

You'd have Fort +4, Refl +2, Will +9, quite high for a 7th lvl PC.

Your Wiz-spells per day are (0/1/2/3): 4/5/3/2
Your Clr-spells per day are (0/1/2/3): 5/3(+1)/2(+1)/1(+1) plus bonus spells from wisdom.

I don't understand any of your problems... :confused: :confused:
BillTheManiac
09-13-07, 10:49 AM Heck yeah. The former build has Mastery of Elements, Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Arcane Reach, among other nice abilities. Surely they're better than 1 feat.

but... 2.5 epic feats? (that's the amount you'd get)

In that case, isn't it really overpowered to sacrifice 1 normal feat (or none, if you're a sorcerer) for 5 levels of archmage which could be worth 2 or 3 epic feats?
rob_douglas
09-13-07, 02:18 PM Daniel Mayer has aptly explained the spell progression - well done. I just wanted to confirm that his is correct.

Bill - I don't think I understand your concern. You seem to think that Archmage is a poor choice - and in almost all cases, it the Archmage is actually a superior choice to taking Wizard. Yes, you are delaying your bonus epic feats, but Mastery of Elements alone is as good as any epic feat. Spell Power is Bluemage's particular favorite choice: +1 caster level taken 5 times means your 20th level character has 25th caster level.

No one is forcing wizards to take Archmage, so if it is an inferior choice for your character (because caster level doesn't matter, or you don't use energy attacks) then you don't have to take it. But almost all my epic wizards are eager to take that trade-off.

Same with Heirophant and Clerics - and there the trade-off pre-epic is a lot bigger, because you don't get spells per day with your Hierophant levels. Best to take that after 17th level.

If you really want some fun - you can wait to take one or more Archmage levels until you have taken ISC 6 times (wizard29/Archmage 1) and get a 9th level spell as a spell-like ability 6 times per day.

ROB
ElyasRavenwood
09-13-07, 06:44 PM DanielMayer,
I made a very simple mistake. The character is a grey elf 3 lvl cloistered cleric, 3rd level wizard, and 1 level Mystic Theurge not a 2nd level mystic theurge.
I made a typo.
Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the character. I occasionally get frustraited when trying to fill in the roll of arcane caster or Devine caster.
But I made this choice and after all it is fun. We are playing in Ptolas. Most everyone follows the dominant monotheistic god of the setting, except for my character, and the DM's npc cleric and my character engange in some light hearted theological sniping back and forth.
But I am looking forward to eighth level where i do get 3rd level spells.
Thank you
rob_douglas
09-13-07, 11:34 PM Ah - no I understand why you kept saying 7th level when you had 8 levels listed... ;)

Have fun - at Epic, the Mystic Theurge is nice, but still has some drawbacks. The official Epic Progression has you swap caster level every other level. Most folks on this board now agree that this is a mistake. The MT is already underpowered at epic levels compared with a straight caster. They can keep up on caster level at the cost of 2 feats - but they can't keep up on ability score boosting. The Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric need only apply all boosts to his prime casting stat to maximize spell effect - but the MT needs to split his bonus. So anyway, keep that in mind if you get to epic, and get your DM to allow the alternate progression - both caster levels every level.

The one argument against that is that an MT that takes Epic Spellcasting gets twice as many epic spells for that 1 feat. This can be rectified more easily by splitting Epic Spellcasting into a feat where you choose Arcane or Divine (or take it twice to get both) as put forth in the Epic SRD Revision thread in my sig.

Enoy - I always wanted to play a grey elf MT cleric/Wizard of Corellon Larethean. Sounds like the perfect combo - and lots of fun. Unfortunately, I DM and don't have that luxury..... ;)

ROB
Karsus the Mad
09-14-07, 08:42 AM but they can't keep up on ability score boosting. The Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric need only apply all boosts to his prime casting stat to maximize spell effect - but the MT needs to split his bonus.
There's the Lost Tradition feat from Bastards and Bloodlines (Green Ronin), which allows you to change the primary casting stat to any other stat. I go sorcerer/wizard/ultimate magus, using the Lost Tradition feat to make the sorcerer's primary casting stat Intelligence.
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-14-07, 09:28 AM There's the Lost Tradition feat from Bastards and Bloodlines (Green Ronin), which allows you to change the primary casting stat to any other stat. I go sorcerer/wizard/ultimate magus, using the Lost Tradition feat to make the sorcerer's primary casting stat Intelligence.

Any stat? This is why 3rd-party stuff is considered ridiculous. Still, a Dexterity or Constitution-based mage would be neat.
danielmayer
09-15-07, 06:29 PM Daniel Mayer has aptly explained the spell progression - well done. I just wanted to confirm that his is correct.

Thanks ;)

I don't know the feat KtM mentioned, but I'm no friend of "feats-that-disintegrate-drawbacks-regardless-of-system". Sorceror and wizard are technically totally different. Imho its quite ridiculous to give bonus-spells such easy. By taking one feat some 10+ bonus spells per day... not with me as DM... Rules are no bondage and can be interpreted, but that'd be too easy.

But Elyas, then the problem is even less "severe". You just started the MT. MT may "suck" in epic dimensions, but the chances of survival of an MT is quite higher in lower levels because of his spell power <20lvl. Healing spells to have spontaneus at hand is quite a powerful thing... A straight wizard 7 may have 4th lvl spells, but only has d4-hp with no healing spells. A well-placed crit is his death, and your time to cast a healing spell on yourself :)

Ah, ST-based spellcasting was my favorite ever ;) Bar2/Wiz6/Eld12 :) 9th-lvl spellcasting with bonus spells from ST23+
ElyasRavenwood
09-17-07, 11:11 PM Thank you Daniel Mayer,
Well I am probobally just griping because I am 1 level away from getting 3rd level spells, and raising an ability score. We are playing in a gaming store, and the numbers of our group oscilate between 8 or 9 and down to 4. I have one of the three characters who has survived since first level. The other two are the NPC DM cleric, and the Rogue. My character has survived because he has been able to heal himself, and other party members using his raven familiar to deliver touch spells like Cure light wounds etc. He stays out of the combat, and has used grease, to keep others away from him. He aslo uses his bow frequently. The thief I mean Rogue has survived because he does not have any misplaced sence of heroics or shal we say honor. He knows when to hide and run. The NPC cleric has survived because, he is well a cleric. Also with the cleric acting as a tank, and mine using healing and boost spells to keep the cleric on his feet the cleric is very difficult to bring down. The fighter "meat shield" types have often been run by younger people with a little less experience, and have lost their characters, because they well began either bickering, or simply did not know when to back down. One evening (the party was 4th level) The dm wanted to take a break so he asked me to run. I whipped up a quick adventure where they would have to rescue the NPC cleric who had been kidnaped. their search lead them into the sewers. One of the kids has an large lion cat type demi human, fighter. I thought i would tease him a little by having my character the cleric mage comment upon entering the sewers " my what an incredible smell you have discovered. I dont care what you smell get down there you furry oaf"- alas The kid did not get my Star wars reference. Oh well. After fighting a couple of carrion crawlers in waist deep sewage, the party managed to find a sealed room, which turned out to be a laboratory. There were lots of cages, and skeletons in the cages, with half their skulls missing. They found their friend in one of the cages. In another was an insane prisioner who kept saying, " when squiddy returns he will not be happy. Munch much he will and crunch crunch and squish squish wil go your brains. He is coming Squidy is coming back" There was a steel door in one end and lots of mist coming out from under it.
Every on decided it was time to take their cleric and run. I even told this kid to run. As the Dm I told him to run. The kid with his 4 level ranger decided to stay, Not to hold the narrow way and let his comrades escape, but because well I dont know. The ilithid arrived, and the ranger was able to sink an arrow into it. This only served to enrage the aberation, and he used it used its mind blast. The kid need to roll a 20 to avoid being stunned and he got it. He hit the ilithid with another arrow. It dominated the ranger. The ilithid ordered the ranger to come over next to it. The ilithid then grabed the rangers head, and the ilithid pried it open and ate the rangers brain like catfood.
This kid came up with a new character next week. I dont know why he did retreat with the rest of the party, especially after they found their wayward NPC cleric, and were retreating with him. Oh well there we are, there has been a revolving door of warrior types.
Take care

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 09-11-07, 07:21 PM	I have a quick queston. If you are a single classed wizard, or sorcerer, of a race that has no level adjustment, does your spell progression in the "spells per day" end at 20 level? When you are 21 level, I think your caster level continues to improve, but your "spells per day" stop. Is that correct? What if you are playing a race with a level adjustment like a drow for example, when you become 21 level does your "spells per day" continue or stop when your ECL rises from 20 t0 21 level? For that matter, what if you had four levels of say rogue, and by 20 level you are a 4 level rouge and 16 level wizard, would your "spells per day" stop once you reached 21 level? would you be stuck with the spells per day of a 16 level wizard, and thus be confined to 8 level spells? or would you progress? Any help would be appreciated, thanks
BillTheManiac 09-11-07, 07:40 PM	correct. IDK.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-11-07, 08:31 PM	Incorrect. Your spells per day are dependent on class level alone, not ECL.
andinel 09-11-07, 08:32 PM	Your spells per day/spells known (if you have them) stop advancing on their own when you hit the maximum level of the class that gives them, virtually (i.e. by prestige classes that give "+1 level" for spellcasting) or actually (by reaching the max level for the class). Even if you have a level adjustment, if you're not at the class's max non-epic level, you can still advance your spellcasting by gaining levels in the class.
BillTheManiac 09-11-07, 09:02 PM	Related note: What happens if you play a wizard 20/archmage 5? Do you sacrifice 2-3 epic feats to get abilities you normally pay 1 ordinary feat for? And you technically have 25th level wizard casting. I would houserule that anyone with 20th level wizard casting can take epic wizard levels.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-11-07, 11:15 PM	What do you mean? There's a nonepic feat in Complete Arcane that gets you a spell slot. Some feats may be similar to some of the abilities, but the abilities are better. As to the Epic Wizard thing: The epic progressions are specifically for class levels 21+. Your house rule is like saying a Wizard 15/Archmage 5 is suddenly a Wizard 21/Archmage 5.
BillTheManiac 09-12-07, 07:17 AM	Archmage as a class sacrifices 5 levels for 5 abilities and 5 level s of wizard spellcasting. A wizard 20/archmage 5 will get only the 5 abilities, not the 5 levels of wizard spellcasting. That's not balanced.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-12-07, 09:22 AM	Archmage as a class sacrifices 5 levels for 5 abilities and 5 level s of wizard spellcasting. A wizard 20/archmage 5 will get only the 5 abilities, not the 5 levels of wizard spellcasting. That's not balanced. :confused: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
ElyasRavenwood 09-12-07, 03:46 PM	Thank you Bill the Mechanic and Taeldrin, both for your responses. However I am still a little confused. Bill, you say I am Correct, and Taledrin, I am incorrect. Is this simply a matter of interpetation, and DM Fiat that a characters "spells per day" end when the character is 20 level, or weather they progress? Tank you for taking the time to answer. What does the DMG say? I have read it and it seems contradictory to me. In one part it says Spells per day do not advance for spell casters once they reach epic level, and in another part of the same section it mentions the option of picking up another class, and you woudl get new spells per day per your new class meaning that you can accrue more spells per day, in another class however, implying that 21 level isnt the final barrier to aquiring more spells per day. Well there we are. Well I suppose its all a moot point, since there is a new edition around the corner, and the powers that be are not encouraging conversion. Thank you agian
danielmayer 09-12-07, 05:16 PM	Hi, Elyas, Yes, that was a little bit confusing. 1) The spell progression is class-dependent. So a F5/W26 has full spells of a W20 and a caster level of 26. (edit: found reference: Epic Level Handbook, p.7: "this book expands each class's progression of class features beyond 20th level[/b]", and, btw, the headline says "CLASS Features"...) 2) If he has that nice non-epic feat called "Practiced Spellcaster", he'd have a caster level of 30. (now you have to look up why only 30 :) ) 3) A PC can be a W20/Clr20 and thus have full spells per day of both classes. 4) Taking Archmage is dependent of the rules you take, because that changed from 3.0 to 3.5-Ed.: a) 3.0 says "no caster progression and lost spells for the secrets b) 3.5 says "normal wiz/sor progression but lost spells for secrets 5) No. 3) is the cause why many players and DMs have problems with the Mystic Theurge and another class I can't remember: The give spell progression in both arcane and divine with each level. So a F5/W3/Clr3/MT10 would have spells as 13th-lvl cleric and 13th-lvl wizard, casting in both at perhaps 18th-lvl caster-lvl (taking the feat 2x...). 6) While the rules give every freedom, I would restrict the stacking effects to different types of "magic". I won't allow a player to take sorceror and wizard-lvls, but that'd be another topic. 7) Feats are charakter-level progressions, by every third. So a W20/Acm5 is a 25th-lvl-PC, having/gaining two epic feats (21st lvl, 24th lvl). Everything clear now? ;)
BillTheManiac 09-12-07, 08:56 PM	[QUOTE]5) No. 3) is the cause why many players and DMs have problems with the Mystic Theurge and another class I can't remember: The give spell progression in both arcane and divine with each level. So a F5/W3/Clr3/MT10 would have spells as 13th-lvl cleric and 13th-lvl wizard, casting in both at perhaps 18th-lvl caster-lvl (taking the feat 2x...). I hear MT sucks. 6) While the rules give every freedom, I would restrict the stacking effects to different types of "magic". I won't allow a player to take sorceror and wizard-lvls, but that'd be another topic. There's a prestige class in Complete Mage that is designed for that combo. 7) Feats are charakter-level progressions, by every third. So a W20/Acm5 is a 25th-lvl-PC, having/gaining two epic feats (21st lvl, 24th lvl). but no bonus feats. I'm just saying, a wizard 15/archmage 5 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level, and 1 feat. A wizard 20 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level and 2 feats. Balanced?
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-12-07, 11:15 PM	Sorry if I was confusing. As Danielmayar said, the spells are class-level dependent. Your spells per day stop when you have 20 levels of wizard, or an effective 20 levels if you've taken a prestige class. I'm just saying, a wizard 15/archmage 5 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level, and 1 feat. A wizard 20 takes 3 levels of wizard, gets +3 caster level and 2 feats. Balanced? Heck yeah. The former build has Mastery of Elements, Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Arcane Reach, among other nice abilities. Surely they're better than 1 feat.
ElyasRavenwood 09-13-07, 12:38 AM	Thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I understand now. The most a character can have in any one class is a 20 level spell progression. Or “spells per day” of a 20 level caster. 21 Epic level does not affect this. Thank you. As for the Mystic Theurge, I am playing one right now in a campaign. My character is a grey elf 3rd lvl Cloistered cleric / 3rd lvl Wizard / 2nd level Mystic theurge. For feats I have 3: spell casting prodigy, and Practiced manifester x2. When another PC wizard and the NPC Dm cleric, is in the group my character is great, He can fill in lots of blanks. I usually use him as a booster/ healer with a few magic missles thrown in. He caster level is 7th, but only having 2nd level spells sucks. I can do some creative and fun things like, using my raven familiar to deliver touch spells like cure light wounds, and I can also use Spectral hand to do the same. Being able to use a sword and long sword is pretty spiffy to. People don’t immediately peg my character as a spell caster. Did I mention having only second level spells to work with at 7 level bites? When my character is the only arcane caster of wizard spells, my character just does not have the damage potential a 7th level wizard would. The same goes for the healing capacity of the single classed cleric. He works best helping out and supporting the other primary spell casters, but on his own he just doesn’t quite cut it. With a +2 Base attack bonus at 7 level, I stay away far away from ranged touch attack spells. With 21 intelligence my character has buckle loads of skill points, which I have poured into knowledge skills. This fits nicely together with bardic lore. My character may not be able to bring down a 7th level beastie, but he can tell his comrades how to do so, with his knowledge checks. I also tend to stick with spells that require saving throws with a +5 intelligence modifier, it makes his spells harder to beat. His caster level is that of a 7th level caster, however his spells per day are that of a 4th level caster. Thank you again.
danielmayer 09-13-07, 09:53 AM	Hmm. As far as I understand you, you did some errors: Wiz3/Clr3/MT2 has cleric spells as a 5th lvl cleric and thus has access to 3rd lvl spells. The same for Wiz! If you took the feat "practiced spellcaster", both spell-types are cast at casterlvl 7! So you could cast a fireball with 7d6 damage and cure serious wounds with 3d8+7. You should read again the MT-class description, I think ;) Same for Base Attack: +2 from Clr3 +1 Wiz3 +1 MT2 = +4 base. A pure Clr7 would have bab +5, so you PC is quite a punch for his PC-lvl. You'd have Fort +4, Refl +2, Will +9, quite high for a 7th lvl PC. Your Wiz-spells per day are (0/1/2/3): 4/5/3/2 Your Clr-spells per day are (0/1/2/3): 5/3(+1)/2(+1)/1(+1) plus bonus spells from wisdom. I don't understand any of your problems... :confused: :confused:
BillTheManiac 09-13-07, 10:49 AM	Heck yeah. The former build has Mastery of Elements, Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Arcane Reach, among other nice abilities. Surely they're better than 1 feat. but... 2.5 epic feats? (that's the amount you'd get) In that case, isn't it really overpowered to sacrifice 1 normal feat (or none, if you're a sorcerer) for 5 levels of archmage which could be worth 2 or 3 epic feats?
rob_douglas 09-13-07, 02:18 PM	Daniel Mayer has aptly explained the spell progression - well done. I just wanted to confirm that his is correct. Bill - I don't think I understand your concern. You seem to think that Archmage is a poor choice - and in almost all cases, it the Archmage is actually a superior choice to taking Wizard. Yes, you are delaying your bonus epic feats, but Mastery of Elements alone is as good as any epic feat. Spell Power is Bluemage's particular favorite choice: +1 caster level taken 5 times means your 20th level character has 25th caster level. No one is forcing wizards to take Archmage, so if it is an inferior choice for your character (because caster level doesn't matter, or you don't use energy attacks) then you don't have to take it. But almost all my epic wizards are eager to take that trade-off. Same with Heirophant and Clerics - and there the trade-off pre-epic is a lot bigger, because you don't get spells per day with your Hierophant levels. Best to take that after 17th level. If you really want some fun - you can wait to take one or more Archmage levels until you have taken ISC 6 times (wizard29/Archmage 1) and get a 9th level spell as a spell-like ability 6 times per day. ROB
ElyasRavenwood 09-13-07, 06:44 PM	DanielMayer, I made a very simple mistake. The character is a grey elf 3 lvl cloistered cleric, 3rd level wizard, and 1 level Mystic Theurge not a 2nd level mystic theurge. I made a typo. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the character. I occasionally get frustraited when trying to fill in the roll of arcane caster or Devine caster. But I made this choice and after all it is fun. We are playing in Ptolas. Most everyone follows the dominant monotheistic god of the setting, except for my character, and the DM's npc cleric and my character engange in some light hearted theological sniping back and forth. But I am looking forward to eighth level where i do get 3rd level spells. Thank you
rob_douglas 09-13-07, 11:34 PM	Ah - no I understand why you kept saying 7th level when you had 8 levels listed... ;) Have fun - at Epic, the Mystic Theurge is nice, but still has some drawbacks. The official Epic Progression has you swap caster level every other level. Most folks on this board now agree that this is a mistake. The MT is already underpowered at epic levels compared with a straight caster. They can keep up on caster level at the cost of 2 feats - but they can't keep up on ability score boosting. The Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric need only apply all boosts to his prime casting stat to maximize spell effect - but the MT needs to split his bonus. So anyway, keep that in mind if you get to epic, and get your DM to allow the alternate progression - both caster levels every level. The one argument against that is that an MT that takes Epic Spellcasting gets twice as many epic spells for that 1 feat. This can be rectified more easily by splitting Epic Spellcasting into a feat where you choose Arcane or Divine (or take it twice to get both) as put forth in the Epic SRD Revision thread in my sig. Enoy - I always wanted to play a grey elf MT cleric/Wizard of Corellon Larethean. Sounds like the perfect combo - and lots of fun. Unfortunately, I DM and don't have that luxury..... ;) ROB
Karsus the Mad 09-14-07, 08:42 AM	but they can't keep up on ability score boosting. The Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric need only apply all boosts to his prime casting stat to maximize spell effect - but the MT needs to split his bonus. There's the Lost Tradition feat from Bastards and Bloodlines (Green Ronin), which allows you to change the primary casting stat to any other stat. I go sorcerer/wizard/ultimate magus, using the Lost Tradition feat to make the sorcerer's primary casting stat Intelligence.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-14-07, 09:28 AM	There's the Lost Tradition feat from Bastards and Bloodlines (Green Ronin), which allows you to change the primary casting stat to any other stat. I go sorcerer/wizard/ultimate magus, using the Lost Tradition feat to make the sorcerer's primary casting stat Intelligence. Any stat? This is why 3rd-party stuff is considered ridiculous. Still, a Dexterity or Constitution-based mage would be neat.
danielmayer 09-15-07, 06:29 PM	Daniel Mayer has aptly explained the spell progression - well done. I just wanted to confirm that his is correct. Thanks ;) I don't know the feat KtM mentioned, but I'm no friend of "feats-that-disintegrate-drawbacks-regardless-of-system". Sorceror and wizard are technically totally different. Imho its quite ridiculous to give bonus-spells such easy. By taking one feat some 10+ bonus spells per day... not with me as DM... Rules are no bondage and can be interpreted, but that'd be too easy. But Elyas, then the problem is even less "severe". You just started the MT. MT may "suck" in epic dimensions, but the chances of survival of an MT is quite higher in lower levels because of his spell power <20lvl. Healing spells to have spontaneus at hand is quite a powerful thing... A straight wizard 7 may have 4th lvl spells, but only has d4-hp with no healing spells. A well-placed crit is his death, and your time to cast a healing spell on yourself :) Ah, ST-based spellcasting was my favorite ever ;) Bar2/Wiz6/Eld12 :) 9th-lvl spellcasting with bonus spells from ST23+
ElyasRavenwood 09-17-07, 11:11 PM	Thank you Daniel Mayer, Well I am probobally just griping because I am 1 level away from getting 3rd level spells, and raising an ability score. We are playing in a gaming store, and the numbers of our group oscilate between 8 or 9 and down to 4. I have one of the three characters who has survived since first level. The other two are the NPC DM cleric, and the Rogue. My character has survived because he has been able to heal himself, and other party members using his raven familiar to deliver touch spells like Cure light wounds etc. He stays out of the combat, and has used grease, to keep others away from him. He aslo uses his bow frequently. The thief I mean Rogue has survived because he does not have any misplaced sence of heroics or shal we say honor. He knows when to hide and run. The NPC cleric has survived because, he is well a cleric. Also with the cleric acting as a tank, and mine using healing and boost spells to keep the cleric on his feet the cleric is very difficult to bring down. The fighter "meat shield" types have often been run by younger people with a little less experience, and have lost their characters, because they well began either bickering, or simply did not know when to back down. One evening (the party was 4th level) The dm wanted to take a break so he asked me to run. I whipped up a quick adventure where they would have to rescue the NPC cleric who had been kidnaped. their search lead them into the sewers. One of the kids has an large lion cat type demi human, fighter. I thought i would tease him a little by having my character the cleric mage comment upon entering the sewers " my what an incredible smell you have discovered. I dont care what you smell get down there you furry oaf"- alas The kid did not get my Star wars reference. Oh well. After fighting a couple of carrion crawlers in waist deep sewage, the party managed to find a sealed room, which turned out to be a laboratory. There were lots of cages, and skeletons in the cages, with half their skulls missing. They found their friend in one of the cages. In another was an insane prisioner who kept saying, " when squiddy returns he will not be happy. Munch much he will and crunch crunch and squish squish wil go your brains. He is coming Squidy is coming back" There was a steel door in one end and lots of mist coming out from under it. Every on decided it was time to take their cleric and run. I even told this kid to run. As the Dm I told him to run. The kid with his 4 level ranger decided to stay, Not to hold the narrow way and let his comrades escape, but because well I dont know. The ilithid arrived, and the ranger was able to sink an arrow into it. This only served to enrage the aberation, and he used it used its mind blast. The kid need to roll a 20 to avoid being stunned and he got it. He hit the ilithid with another arrow. It dominated the ranger. The ilithid ordered the ranger to come over next to it. The ilithid then grabed the rangers head, and the ilithid pried it open and ate the rangers brain like catfood. This kid came up with a new character next week. I dont know why he did retreat with the rest of the party, especially after they found their wayward NPC cleric, and were retreating with him. Oh well there we are, there has been a revolving door of warrior types. Take care