Quick Epic Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Quick Epic Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kedami
07-28-07, 01:38 PM If a monster has 20HD and a +1 LA (ECL 21), does that mean that the monster is Epic? It should if it's a player, right? Should it matter if it's an NPC?

I doubt there is such a monster, but I'm planning on a long-running campaign that may be my first Epic one (as in "it might last long enough to go Epic", not "I can't remember if I've run an Epic campaign before") and I need to get this straight in case a PC chooses a race with a level adjustment.
Witch
07-28-07, 02:01 PM No - a monster is epic when its CR is over 20.
If its hit dice is over 20, it may take epic feats, but I strongly recommend not doing that unless your CR is over 20 as well.

Level adjustment plays no role in allowing epic feats, epic attack bonus and epic saves.
Silvercrys
07-28-07, 03:06 PM True for monsters, but I believe he was asking about PC's.

The example PC (20 class levels, +1 LA) would indeed be epic, since his effective level is higher than 20 and he would have as many experience points as any other 21st level character.

However, since he doesn't get any class abilities, feats, or ability increases, he's basically a 21st level character with 20th level abilities. (No epic feats, no epic attack, no epic saves)

So the PC's considered epic, but isn't really.
Kedami
07-28-07, 03:11 PM Thanks.
I need a copy of the Epic Level Handbook, don't I? Heh.
bluemage55
07-28-07, 03:24 PM No - a monster is epic when its CR is over 20.

I disagree. A monster, like any other creature, is epic when it is has over 20 HD.

Put plainly, an epic character is one who has achieved 21st character level

Character level = HD, therefore, a being with 21 HD is epic.

Such a monster may not be an epic-level challenge, but it qualifies as epic and may take epic feats, even though the monsters in the Monstrous Manual were not designed to take into account epic feat selection and instead have things like repeated Toughess.

Level adjustment plays no role in allowing epic feats, epic attack bonus and epic saves.

Agreed.
carcrazy202
07-28-07, 04:25 PM Bluemage: But then what about the Tarrasque?

It has 48 HD. but is CR 20. close but not quite. By your reasoning the Tarrasque's six Toughness feats could be used instead for epic feats!?!

NOW THAT would be SCARY :eek:!

I mean can you imagine if they were changed to EPIC toughness OH THE HUMANITY!!! *sarcasm*sarcasm*
Witch
07-28-07, 04:26 PM The tarrasque could be made far scarier with other feats, rather than Epic Toughness.

Bluemage: our disagreement is with regards to something inconsequential, regardless. Being called epic scarcely has any mechanical benefit, after all.
NinjaPenguin
07-28-07, 08:31 PM Well, a creature with 19 HD and CR 22 is not 'epic' because it only has 19 hit dice and can't take epic feats. Does that make sense? Or am I just halucinating again :P
rob_douglas
07-29-07, 12:58 AM The issue is what you want to do with the term "Epic".

A creature with 21 HD qualifies for Epic Feats. But I don't tend to use them until CR20, just to be nice to my PCs. But my PCs are also not optimizers, so that works out fairly. If they were, I would probably use more Epic feats sooner.

You get Epic Save/Attack bonuses instead of class level bonuses if you a) have 21+ HD, and b) have class levels. If all you have are monster HD, then you don't use ES/AB.

You need Epic level experience, and get Epic level starting equipment, and should have your equipment balanced using Epic Rules when you are ECL 21+ (meaning 20HD with +1LA). But this has no game mechanical effect on "being epic".

An example, a Trumpet Archon is ECL20, but 12HD. A player playing one gets +12 BAB, and +8 to all saves from HD. He needs 20,000 more XP to be 21st level, and gain a class level. He chooses Cleric (because it stacks with his clerical casting....). He now has 13HD, still a +12BAB, and +10 F/W, +8 R saves. He does not gain a feat, because he only has 13 HD. Next feat comes at 15HD, and it cannot be an Epic feat, even though he will be ECL 23. At 20HD (Trumpet Archon Cleric8) he will have ECL 28, Cast as a 22nd level cleric, and BAB +18 (4 attacks), F/R/W of +14/+10/+14, and have gained 2 ability score increases (at 16 and 20 HD, or Cleric 4 and 8), and 2 feats (at 15 and 18HD, Cleric 3 and 6), neither of which are epic. His first epic feat comes at ECL 29, Cleric 9, caster level 23, BAB +18, but EAB +1, Saves as above (no ESB yet).

Some will grant PCs access to Epic Feats when your ECL is over 20.

ROB
runestar
07-31-07, 12:00 AM Actually, the ELH states that you can take epic feats if your ECL if 21 or more. Meaning that a half-dragon sorc18 can take epic spellcasting with the feat she gets at lv18.

This means that in the case of the trumpet archon, he can take an epic feat at ECL23, when she has taken her 3rd lv of cleric.:)
Witch
07-31-07, 04:52 AM Provide us with a quote. To my knowledge, the SRD always states character level, not effective character level.
runestar
07-31-07, 06:18 AM Provide us with a quote. To my knowledge, the SRD always states character level, not effective character level.

I was quoting from the ELH (pg25, under the "Monsters as PCs" sidebar), which mentions how a fighter13/blackguard3 with a LA of +5 was ECL21 and could take an epic feat if he qualified for it. The example stinks as there is no way he can acquire a feat anyways at this juncture, but the point they are trying to drive across seems clear-cut enough.:)
rob_douglas
07-31-07, 11:19 AM I thought it was clear from the example that they didn't know what they heck they were talking about.... ;)

ROB
kreesteeyan
07-31-07, 01:27 PM I was quoting from the ELH (pg25, under the "Monsters as PCs" sidebar), which mentions how a fighter13/blackguard3 with a LA of +5 was ECL21 and could take an epic feat if he qualified for it. The example stinks as there is no way he can acquire a feat anyways at this juncture, but the point they are trying to drive across seems clear-cut enough.:)
It is also in DMG page 209.
rob_douglas
08-01-07, 12:24 AM The problem is, that the example given is clearly wrong. For example, it says that it gains the Epic save bonus, but doesn't say which hit dice go into the save. For everyone, the example is a Bugbear (HD3/LA+2) Ftr14/Blg3. He has 20 Hit dice, 3 racial, and 17 class, and is ECL22. Are they suggesting that his Level Adjustment give him the EAB/ESB, in addition to the 20 HD giving him BAB/BSB, or are they suggesting that he only gets BAB/BSB from 18 hit dice worth, with the last 2 being Epic? What happens to other races that might have ECL over 20 before you start?

And worse - what if someone or something gains a template after reaching 20th level? Do you retroactively remove their attack bonus? A fighter 20 gains the half-fiend template, and his attacks drop by 2. Not really sensible. If he became a Paragon, his attacks would drop by 7! At least his saves would mostly go up.

The FAQ fixed this some time ago, before the DMG screwed it back up again. Stick with the FAQ - they were actually paying attention when they wrote it. ECL only applies to XP needed to level, and Wealth Guidelines. For all other purposes, use Character Level (equal to Hit Dice) to determine the effects of pre and post epic.

ROB
runestar
08-01-07, 01:43 AM Are they suggesting that his Level Adjustment give him the EAB/ESB, in addition to the 20 HD giving him BAB/BSB, or are they suggesting that he only gets BAB/BSB from 18 hit dice worth, with the last 2 being Epic? What happens to other races that might have ECL over 20 before you start?

Neither. Epic bab/saves only kick in when you have get your 21st HD (assuming it was a class lv or a combination of HD+class lvs).

And worse - what if someone or something gains a template after reaching 20th level? Do you retroactively remove their attack bonus? A fighter 20 gains the half-fiend template, and his attacks drop by 2. Not really sensible. If he became a Paragon, his attacks would drop by 7! At least his saves would mostly go up.

I don't see why the stats would change retroactively.

And I am equally confused by the FAQ, because I see 2 completely contradictory answers inside.

Page2 tells you to use ECL to determine when epic bab/saves kick in, page3 states that its ECL has no effect on when it is epic (epic kicks in when character lv or total HD = 21 or more). So what do I believe?:confused:
rob_douglas
08-01-07, 02:07 PM Hey you are right - I missed that on page 2.

Basically, all stats come from real HD in all other cases, so it makes no sense to use ECL for these. It is too big a mess.

ROB
YourInnerDarkness
08-08-07, 10:40 PM I think in my personal Opinion its Dm Choice.
Because it all depends on what you are using for monsters as well...
Like if you think a Monster of 20hd is Epic then add the Epic feats.
It all depends on the power level of your party.
I think Hd is what I personaly would go off of for Level.
Cr is only its Challenge Rating.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kedami 07-28-07, 01:38 PM	If a monster has 20HD and a +1 LA (ECL 21), does that mean that the monster is Epic? It should if it's a player, right? Should it matter if it's an NPC? I doubt there is such a monster, but I'm planning on a long-running campaign that may be my first Epic one (as in "it might last long enough to go Epic", not "I can't remember if I've run an Epic campaign before") and I need to get this straight in case a PC chooses a race with a level adjustment.
Witch 07-28-07, 02:01 PM	No - a monster is epic when its CR is over 20. If its hit dice is over 20, it may take epic feats, but I strongly recommend not doing that unless your CR is over 20 as well. Level adjustment plays no role in allowing epic feats, epic attack bonus and epic saves.
Silvercrys 07-28-07, 03:06 PM	True for monsters, but I believe he was asking about PC's. The example PC (20 class levels, +1 LA) would indeed be epic, since his effective level is higher than 20 and he would have as many experience points as any other 21st level character. However, since he doesn't get any class abilities, feats, or ability increases, he's basically a 21st level character with 20th level abilities. (No epic feats, no epic attack, no epic saves) So the PC's considered epic, but isn't really.
Kedami 07-28-07, 03:11 PM	Thanks. I need a copy of the Epic Level Handbook, don't I? Heh.
bluemage55 07-28-07, 03:24 PM	No - a monster is epic when its CR is over 20. I disagree. A monster, like any other creature, is epic when it is has over 20 HD. Put plainly, an epic character is one who has achieved 21st character level Character level = HD, therefore, a being with 21 HD is epic. Such a monster may not be an epic-level challenge, but it qualifies as epic and may take epic feats, even though the monsters in the Monstrous Manual were not designed to take into account epic feat selection and instead have things like repeated Toughess. Level adjustment plays no role in allowing epic feats, epic attack bonus and epic saves. Agreed.
carcrazy202 07-28-07, 04:25 PM	Bluemage: But then what about the Tarrasque? It has 48 HD. but is CR 20. close but not quite. By your reasoning the Tarrasque's six Toughness feats could be used instead for epic feats!?! NOW THAT would be SCARY :eek:! I mean can you imagine if they were changed to EPIC toughness OH THE HUMANITY!!! sarcasmsarcasm*
Witch 07-28-07, 04:26 PM	The tarrasque could be made far scarier with other feats, rather than Epic Toughness. Bluemage: our disagreement is with regards to something inconsequential, regardless. Being called epic scarcely has any mechanical benefit, after all.
NinjaPenguin 07-28-07, 08:31 PM	Well, a creature with 19 HD and CR 22 is not 'epic' because it only has 19 hit dice and can't take epic feats. Does that make sense? Or am I just halucinating again :P
rob_douglas 07-29-07, 12:58 AM	The issue is what you want to do with the term "Epic". A creature with 21 HD qualifies for Epic Feats. But I don't tend to use them until CR20, just to be nice to my PCs. But my PCs are also not optimizers, so that works out fairly. If they were, I would probably use more Epic feats sooner. You get Epic Save/Attack bonuses instead of class level bonuses if you a) have 21+ HD, and b) have class levels. If all you have are monster HD, then you don't use ES/AB. You need Epic level experience, and get Epic level starting equipment, and should have your equipment balanced using Epic Rules when you are ECL 21+ (meaning 20HD with +1LA). But this has no game mechanical effect on "being epic". An example, a Trumpet Archon is ECL20, but 12HD. A player playing one gets +12 BAB, and +8 to all saves from HD. He needs 20,000 more XP to be 21st level, and gain a class level. He chooses Cleric (because it stacks with his clerical casting....). He now has 13HD, still a +12BAB, and +10 F/W, +8 R saves. He does not gain a feat, because he only has 13 HD. Next feat comes at 15HD, and it cannot be an Epic feat, even though he will be ECL 23. At 20HD (Trumpet Archon Cleric8) he will have ECL 28, Cast as a 22nd level cleric, and BAB +18 (4 attacks), F/R/W of +14/+10/+14, and have gained 2 ability score increases (at 16 and 20 HD, or Cleric 4 and 8), and 2 feats (at 15 and 18HD, Cleric 3 and 6), neither of which are epic. His first epic feat comes at ECL 29, Cleric 9, caster level 23, BAB +18, but EAB +1, Saves as above (no ESB yet). Some will grant PCs access to Epic Feats when your ECL is over 20. ROB
runestar 07-31-07, 12:00 AM	Actually, the ELH states that you can take epic feats if your ECL if 21 or more. Meaning that a half-dragon sorc18 can take epic spellcasting with the feat she gets at lv18. This means that in the case of the trumpet archon, he can take an epic feat at ECL23, when she has taken her 3rd lv of cleric.:)
Witch 07-31-07, 04:52 AM	Provide us with a quote. To my knowledge, the SRD always states character level, not effective character level.
runestar 07-31-07, 06:18 AM	Provide us with a quote. To my knowledge, the SRD always states character level, not effective character level. I was quoting from the ELH (pg25, under the "Monsters as PCs" sidebar), which mentions how a fighter13/blackguard3 with a LA of +5 was ECL21 and could take an epic feat if he qualified for it. The example stinks as there is no way he can acquire a feat anyways at this juncture, but the point they are trying to drive across seems clear-cut enough.:)
rob_douglas 07-31-07, 11:19 AM	I thought it was clear from the example that they didn't know what they heck they were talking about.... ;) ROB
kreesteeyan 07-31-07, 01:27 PM	I was quoting from the ELH (pg25, under the "Monsters as PCs" sidebar), which mentions how a fighter13/blackguard3 with a LA of +5 was ECL21 and could take an epic feat if he qualified for it. The example stinks as there is no way he can acquire a feat anyways at this juncture, but the point they are trying to drive across seems clear-cut enough.:) It is also in DMG page 209.
rob_douglas 08-01-07, 12:24 AM	The problem is, that the example given is clearly wrong. For example, it says that it gains the Epic save bonus, but doesn't say which hit dice go into the save. For everyone, the example is a Bugbear (HD3/LA+2) Ftr14/Blg3. He has 20 Hit dice, 3 racial, and 17 class, and is ECL22. Are they suggesting that his Level Adjustment give him the EAB/ESB, in addition to the 20 HD giving him BAB/BSB, or are they suggesting that he only gets BAB/BSB from 18 hit dice worth, with the last 2 being Epic? What happens to other races that might have ECL over 20 before you start? And worse - what if someone or something gains a template after reaching 20th level? Do you retroactively remove their attack bonus? A fighter 20 gains the half-fiend template, and his attacks drop by 2. Not really sensible. If he became a Paragon, his attacks would drop by 7! At least his saves would mostly go up. The FAQ fixed this some time ago, before the DMG screwed it back up again. Stick with the FAQ - they were actually paying attention when they wrote it. ECL only applies to XP needed to level, and Wealth Guidelines. For all other purposes, use Character Level (equal to Hit Dice) to determine the effects of pre and post epic. ROB
runestar 08-01-07, 01:43 AM	Are they suggesting that his Level Adjustment give him the EAB/ESB, in addition to the 20 HD giving him BAB/BSB, or are they suggesting that he only gets BAB/BSB from 18 hit dice worth, with the last 2 being Epic? What happens to other races that might have ECL over 20 before you start? Neither. Epic bab/saves only kick in when you have get your 21st HD (assuming it was a class lv or a combination of HD+class lvs). And worse - what if someone or something gains a template after reaching 20th level? Do you retroactively remove their attack bonus? A fighter 20 gains the half-fiend template, and his attacks drop by 2. Not really sensible. If he became a Paragon, his attacks would drop by 7! At least his saves would mostly go up. I don't see why the stats would change retroactively. And I am equally confused by the FAQ, because I see 2 completely contradictory answers inside. Page2 tells you to use ECL to determine when epic bab/saves kick in, page3 states that its ECL has no effect on when it is epic (epic kicks in when character lv or total HD = 21 or more). So what do I believe?:confused:
rob_douglas 08-01-07, 02:07 PM	Hey you are right - I missed that on page 2. Basically, all stats come from real HD in all other cases, so it makes no sense to use ECL for these. It is too big a mess. ROB
YourInnerDarkness 08-08-07, 10:40 PM	I think in my personal Opinion its Dm Choice. Because it all depends on what you are using for monsters as well... Like if you think a Monster of 20hd is Epic then add the Epic feats. It all depends on the power level of your party. I think Hd is what I personaly would go off of for Level. Cr is only its Challenge Rating.