Quick question re: healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Quick question re: healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wellspring
01-27-08, 02:03 PM Hey after epic levels hit, you have the problem that hit points scale up, damage per round scales up, but healing caps off when you get Heal.

Does anyone have a nice, high-level, scalable heal out there? Epic obviously I can make for myself, but after Heal, healers mostly focus on healing more people, whereas the monsters our DM throws at us typically focus-fire just like we players. The healer is using Heal + Quickened Heal for 300 HP/round but sometimes that doesn't cut it. Any ideas?
PrinceOfTheVoid
01-27-08, 03:25 PM Intensified Mass Heal heals 500 (16th level spell) plus a quickened Mass Heal (13th Level) that's 750

Epic Heal Seed heals all (unless it got changed in the 3.5 update)
BillTheManiac
01-27-08, 07:53 PM if it doesn't you can kill someone and then resurrect them.
Tequila_Sunrise
01-28-08, 12:10 AM Hey after epic levels hit, you have the problem that hit points scale up, damage per round scales up, but healing caps off when you get Heal.

Does anyone have a nice, high-level, scalable heal out there? Epic obviously I can make for myself, but after Heal, healers mostly focus on healing more people, whereas the monsters our DM throws at us typically focus-fire just like we players. The healer is using Heal + Quickened Heal for 300 HP/round but sometimes that doesn't cut it. Any ideas?

Take a look at the DMG where it talks about creating new spells. There's a nifty table there that explains about dice caps; it mostly applies to blasty spells but it works just as well for cure and heal spells. Then ask your DM to look at it with you and OK a few new spells. Unless he's insanely uptight, he'll at least OK a new cure spell at each level if not a few Greater and Lesser Heal spells. Actually I just so happen to have a few written up here. (http://lucasbuchanan.com/New%20Spells)

TS
Taeldrin Laesrash
01-28-08, 12:51 AM The Heal Seed was based off the old Heal spell, it has presumably changed with its base. I'd suggest using metamagic, or applying craploads of metamagic-like factors to an epic spell.
Starmage21
01-29-08, 09:11 AM if it doesn't you can kill someone and then resurrect them.

Generally for free. Clerics w/ Ignore Material Components casting True Ressurection are full of WIN.

The Heal Seed was based off the old Heal spell, it has presumably changed with its base. I'd suggest using metamagic, or applying craploads of metamagic-like factors to an epic spell.

Yeah but it's epic magic, and theres absolutely no way to farm more spell slots. Youre casting 3-4 a day at most in the "usual" epic game.
Taeldrin Laesrash
01-29-08, 09:11 PM Actually, I just remembered: Make an epic spell granting continuous Fast Healing. I did that once, and it worked wonders. Use a variant of the Fortify seed (Heck, it says you can give the target a statistic it does not possess, so Fast Healing 15 for 20 hours for DC 73).
Tequila_Sunrise
01-30-08, 01:39 AM Well, how about it Wellspring? Have you found a solution?
BigGus
01-30-08, 08:20 AM Intensified Mass Heal heals 500 (16th level spell) plus a quickened Mass Heal (13th Level) that's 750

I don't think Heal spells count as "variable, numeric" effects for the purposes of Intensify etc because they heal a fixed amount of damage per level.

Epic Heal Seed heals all (unless it got changed in the 3.5 update)

The Heal Seed was based off the old Heal spell, it has presumably changed with its base.

As far as I've ever seen, the Heal seed still cures all damage in the 3.5 SRD.

The the OP: the best solution I've found is Multispell. Taken once and combined with Mass Heal it gives 750 per round. If you take it multiple times, there's no potential limit if you have enough 13th-level spell slots.
PrinceOfTheVoid
01-30-08, 09:13 AM [QUOTE=BigGus;14961582]I don't think Heal spells count as "variable, numeric" effects for the purposes of Intensify etc because they heal a fixed amount of damage per level.

Really?...

Either I've been doing things wrong for a very long time, or the ELH itself is wrong. I was under the impression that it was all Variable and Numeric components, since it states in the description that it affect double the number of targets. Also, I'm not positive, but I thought that, under the Intelligent Item Awesome Powers section of the ELH, it lists Intensified Bull's Strength, etc, which are static bonuses, double to give +12 (+8 in 3.5?) to a stat.

I could very well be wrong though. If so, I'll just add that to my list of houserules.
BigGus
01-30-08, 05:43 PM Really?...

Either I've been doing things wrong for a very long time, or the ELH itself is wrong. I was under the impression that it was all Variable and Numeric components, since it states in the description that it affect double the number of targets. Also, I'm not positive, but I thought that, under the Intelligent Item Awesome Powers section of the ELH, it lists Intensified Bull's Strength, etc, which are static bonuses, double to give +12 (+8 in 3.5?) to a stat.

I could very well be wrong though. If so, I'll just add that to my list of houserules.

Well, Empower and Maximise Spell both state that they do not affect spells without random variables. Caster level is what determines the effect of Heal, so as it's a non-random variable you can't Empower or Maximise it. Intensify Spell doesn't specifically mention random variables, but I've always assumed it worked the same way as Emp/Max as it ends with the words "You can’t combine the effects of this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a spell, such as Empower Spell or Maximise Spell", which strongly suggest that they have the same types of effect.

As for the number of targets, Emp/Max both specify that they affect the number of targets; and if they affect only random variables, they must increase only those spells which have a random number of targets. Again, I've always assumed that Intensify worked the same.

The Intensified Bull's Strength is explained by the fact that the ELH is a 3.0 book, and BS was a variable-effect spell in 3.0; it gave 1d4+1, which Intensified gives a +10 bonus, which is what the Intelligent Item Awesome Powers section in the ELH specifies. Oddly, this hasn't been altered in the "3.5" SRDs I've looked at, but this is clearly an editing oversight, since in 3.5 even if it did work it would only give +8, as you say.

If you wanted to allow metamagic to affect Heal, the simplest way would to be to change its effect to 2d8 or 3d6 per caster level instead of a fixed 10; you could then Intensify it for 480 or 540 damage healed.

To the OP: another thought occured to me; Twin Spell is handy too, because you can Mass Heal 500 in one spell, which with Multispell makes 1000 damage per round healed.
rob_douglas
01-30-08, 06:58 PM Heal was a variable effect under 3.0 as well, so intensify did work on it, if you could figure out the math. It healed "all but 1-4 hit points" so maximize presumable would make it heal all but 1 - and intensify, all but 1 as well....Hmmm Or by a strict reading of the rules, intensify would have healed all but 8 (max 4 doubled...). In any case, it was not a good candidate spell.

The Bull Str intensify issue was explained - 3.0 to 3.5 conversion issue.

ROB
Asmodeous
01-30-08, 10:48 PM Some of the articles that skip williams pointed out that spells such as heal & mass heal will not work with feats that augment variable dice spells such as intensify. I don't think it was ever put into a SRD, just one of his articles or FAQ's.

Anyway, I think the best solution for you is twin spell or create a epic spell using the heal seed.
My epic cleric uses a combination of mass heal and maximised cure spells where needed. Funnily enough, the same spell slots as what your using (my character has improved metamagic) so i can maximise cure crit spells that do 52 points. But at least with the mass heal, I can heal other party members where as heal/quick heal is one target. The way my DM throws the damage around, healing the entire party often has it's advantages.
rob_douglas
01-31-08, 05:53 PM Twin spell and Repeat Spell - now that is how to Heal someone.

You can do both to Mass Heal, and you can Repeat Heal if you also use Reach Spell or have Divine Reach from Hierophant. Twin works for Heal as well.

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wellspring 01-27-08, 02:03 PM	Hey after epic levels hit, you have the problem that hit points scale up, damage per round scales up, but healing caps off when you get Heal. Does anyone have a nice, high-level, scalable heal out there? Epic obviously I can make for myself, but after Heal, healers mostly focus on healing more people, whereas the monsters our DM throws at us typically focus-fire just like we players. The healer is using Heal + Quickened Heal for 300 HP/round but sometimes that doesn't cut it. Any ideas?
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-27-08, 03:25 PM	Intensified Mass Heal heals 500 (16th level spell) plus a quickened Mass Heal (13th Level) that's 750 Epic Heal Seed heals all (unless it got changed in the 3.5 update)
BillTheManiac 01-27-08, 07:53 PM	if it doesn't you can kill someone and then resurrect them.
Tequila_Sunrise 01-28-08, 12:10 AM	Hey after epic levels hit, you have the problem that hit points scale up, damage per round scales up, but healing caps off when you get Heal. Does anyone have a nice, high-level, scalable heal out there? Epic obviously I can make for myself, but after Heal, healers mostly focus on healing more people, whereas the monsters our DM throws at us typically focus-fire just like we players. The healer is using Heal + Quickened Heal for 300 HP/round but sometimes that doesn't cut it. Any ideas? Take a look at the DMG where it talks about creating new spells. There's a nifty table there that explains about dice caps; it mostly applies to blasty spells but it works just as well for cure and heal spells. Then ask your DM to look at it with you and OK a few new spells. Unless he's insanely uptight, he'll at least OK a new cure spell at each level if not a few Greater and Lesser Heal spells. Actually I just so happen to have a few written up here. (http://lucasbuchanan.com/New%20Spells) TS
Taeldrin Laesrash 01-28-08, 12:51 AM	The Heal Seed was based off the old Heal spell, it has presumably changed with its base. I'd suggest using metamagic, or applying craploads of metamagic-like factors to an epic spell.
Starmage21 01-29-08, 09:11 AM	if it doesn't you can kill someone and then resurrect them. Generally for free. Clerics w/ Ignore Material Components casting True Ressurection are full of WIN. The Heal Seed was based off the old Heal spell, it has presumably changed with its base. I'd suggest using metamagic, or applying craploads of metamagic-like factors to an epic spell. Yeah but it's epic magic, and theres absolutely no way to farm more spell slots. Youre casting 3-4 a day at most in the "usual" epic game.
Taeldrin Laesrash 01-29-08, 09:11 PM	Actually, I just remembered: Make an epic spell granting continuous Fast Healing. I did that once, and it worked wonders. Use a variant of the Fortify seed (Heck, it says you can give the target a statistic it does not possess, so Fast Healing 15 for 20 hours for DC 73).
Tequila_Sunrise 01-30-08, 01:39 AM	Well, how about it Wellspring? Have you found a solution?
BigGus 01-30-08, 08:20 AM	Intensified Mass Heal heals 500 (16th level spell) plus a quickened Mass Heal (13th Level) that's 750 I don't think Heal spells count as "variable, numeric" effects for the purposes of Intensify etc because they heal a fixed amount of damage per level. Epic Heal Seed heals all (unless it got changed in the 3.5 update) The Heal Seed was based off the old Heal spell, it has presumably changed with its base. As far as I've ever seen, the Heal seed still cures all damage in the 3.5 SRD. The the OP: the best solution I've found is Multispell. Taken once and combined with Mass Heal it gives 750 per round. If you take it multiple times, there's no potential limit if you have enough 13th-level spell slots.
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-30-08, 09:13 AM	[QUOTE=BigGus;14961582]I don't think Heal spells count as "variable, numeric" effects for the purposes of Intensify etc because they heal a fixed amount of damage per level. Really?... Either I've been doing things wrong for a very long time, or the ELH itself is wrong. I was under the impression that it was all Variable and Numeric components, since it states in the description that it affect double the number of targets. Also, I'm not positive, but I thought that, under the Intelligent Item Awesome Powers section of the ELH, it lists Intensified Bull's Strength, etc, which are static bonuses, double to give +12 (+8 in 3.5?) to a stat. I could very well be wrong though. If so, I'll just add that to my list of houserules.
BigGus 01-30-08, 05:43 PM	Really?... Either I've been doing things wrong for a very long time, or the ELH itself is wrong. I was under the impression that it was all Variable and Numeric components, since it states in the description that it affect double the number of targets. Also, I'm not positive, but I thought that, under the Intelligent Item Awesome Powers section of the ELH, it lists Intensified Bull's Strength, etc, which are static bonuses, double to give +12 (+8 in 3.5?) to a stat. I could very well be wrong though. If so, I'll just add that to my list of houserules. Well, Empower and Maximise Spell both state that they do not affect spells without random variables. Caster level is what determines the effect of Heal, so as it's a non-random variable you can't Empower or Maximise it. Intensify Spell doesn't specifically mention random variables, but I've always assumed it worked the same way as Emp/Max as it ends with the words "You can’t combine the effects of this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a spell, such as Empower Spell or Maximise Spell", which strongly suggest that they have the same types of effect. As for the number of targets, Emp/Max both specify that they affect the number of targets; and if they affect only random variables, they must increase only those spells which have a random number of targets. Again, I've always assumed that Intensify worked the same. The Intensified Bull's Strength is explained by the fact that the ELH is a 3.0 book, and BS was a variable-effect spell in 3.0; it gave 1d4+1, which Intensified gives a +10 bonus, which is what the Intelligent Item Awesome Powers section in the ELH specifies. Oddly, this hasn't been altered in the "3.5" SRDs I've looked at, but this is clearly an editing oversight, since in 3.5 even if it did work it would only give +8, as you say. If you wanted to allow metamagic to affect Heal, the simplest way would to be to change its effect to 2d8 or 3d6 per caster level instead of a fixed 10; you could then Intensify it for 480 or 540 damage healed. To the OP: another thought occured to me; Twin Spell is handy too, because you can Mass Heal 500 in one spell, which with Multispell makes 1000 damage per round healed.
rob_douglas 01-30-08, 06:58 PM	Heal was a variable effect under 3.0 as well, so intensify did work on it, if you could figure out the math. It healed "all but 1-4 hit points" so maximize presumable would make it heal all but 1 - and intensify, all but 1 as well....Hmmm Or by a strict reading of the rules, intensify would have healed all but 8 (max 4 doubled...). In any case, it was not a good candidate spell. The Bull Str intensify issue was explained - 3.0 to 3.5 conversion issue. ROB
Asmodeous 01-30-08, 10:48 PM	Some of the articles that skip williams pointed out that spells such as heal & mass heal will not work with feats that augment variable dice spells such as intensify. I don't think it was ever put into a SRD, just one of his articles or FAQ's. Anyway, I think the best solution for you is twin spell or create a epic spell using the heal seed. My epic cleric uses a combination of mass heal and maximised cure spells where needed. Funnily enough, the same spell slots as what your using (my character has improved metamagic) so i can maximise cure crit spells that do 52 points. But at least with the mass heal, I can heal other party members where as heal/quick heal is one target. The way my DM throws the damage around, healing the entire party often has it's advantages.
rob_douglas 01-31-08, 05:53 PM	Twin spell and Repeat Spell - now that is how to Heal someone. You can do both to Mass Heal, and you can Repeat Heal if you also use Reach Spell or have Divine Reach from Hierophant. Twin works for Heal as well. ROB