quick question - what's his base attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

quick question - what's his base attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Legendarius
11-15-07, 07:53 PM If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus?

+23 (+3 for ogre from MM + 20 for fighter)

or

+20 (because he hits epic level after 20 HD (ogre + fighter 16)

or

other?

L
Starmage21
11-15-07, 07:58 PM If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus?

+23 (+3 for ogre from MM + 20 for fighter)

or

+20 (because he hits epic level after 20 HD (ogre + fighter 16)

or

other?

L

Other
+3 from being an Ogre(4HD, 2 LA), +14 from Fighter 14. Every level after that, youre using epic BAB rules for a PC Total BAB +17, but his total attack bonus is going to be +20 because he gets +3 Epic Attack Bonus for the 6 post Character Level 20 Fighter levels.
betrayor
11-15-07, 08:08 PM I wouldn't agree with that.
I think that EAB kicks in after Character level 21.
So his attack bonus would be 21
3 because of racial hit dice 16 because of the first 16 levels of fighter and 2 from the rest 4 levels of fighter.
runestar
11-15-07, 09:12 PM I agree with Betrayor, in that I would go with HD, rather than ECL.

My rationale is that I see no reason why an ogre fighter20 npc should have different bab and base saves from an ogre fighter20 PC.
rob_douglas
11-16-07, 02:04 PM Betrayor and Runestar have it. EAB kicks in based on character level, not ECL.

ROB
Starmage21
11-17-07, 08:23 PM Betrayor and Runestar have it. EAB kicks in based on character level, not ECL.

ROB

heh maybe the fact that ECL stands for Effective Character Level threw me off.
Legendarius
11-18-07, 10:55 AM Thanks for the replies. I've been doing some digging and I'm beginning to think that it's character level, not ECL, that determines the base attack bonus but the epic attack bonus kicks in when you're ECL hits 21 (meaning it's possible that your base attack bonus might still increase some if you're still below 20 HD.

I base this on the following from the 3.5 DMG, page 209, under the heading of Monsters as Epic Characters:
"A bugbear (3HD and +2 Level Adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard) is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus."

The sample bugbear is character level 20 and ECL 22. At this point his base attack bonus is fixed but apparently he doesn't have to wait until character level 22 to gain his epic bonuses.

One odd thing about all this is that if I understand the rules right now, an epic Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 has a base attack of +10/+5 whereas a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20 has a base attack of +20/+15/+10/+5. The order by which you take your classes will definitely matter. Even though both are 40th level characters, the first only gets two attacks per round but the second gets four. Both would have the same number of spells per day though because that stops increasing at 20th level (ignoring bonus spells for high CHA). Both would have the same epic attack and save bonuses.

So back to my original question: "If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus?" I think the answer is the ogre in question.

Ogre Fighter 20
Character Level = 24 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels)
Effective Character Level = 26 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels + 2 level adjust)
BAB = +19/+14/+9/+4 (+3 for 4 ogre HD, +16 for first 16 fighter levels)
EAB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 21, 23 and 25)
ESB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 22, 24 and 26)

L
Puritan13
11-18-07, 01:22 PM Thanks for the replies. I've been doing some digging and I'm beginning to think that it's character level, not ECL, that determines the base attack bonus but the epic attack bonus kicks in when you're ECL hits 21 (meaning it's possible that your base attack bonus might still increase some if you're still below 20 HD.

I base this on the following from the 3.5 DMG, page 209, under the heading of Monsters as Epic Characters:
"A bugbear (3HD and +2 Level Adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard) is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus."

The sample bugbear is character level 20 and ECL 22. At this point his base attack bonus is fixed but apparently he doesn't have to wait until character level 22 to gain his epic bonuses.

One odd thing about all this is that if I understand the rules right now, an epic Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 has a base attack of +10/+5 whereas a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20 has a base attack of +20/+15/+10/+5. The order by which you take your classes will definitely matter. Even though both are 40th level characters, the first only gets two attacks per round but the second gets four. Both would have the same number of spells per day though because that stops increasing at 20th level (ignoring bonus spells for high CHA). Both would have the same epic attack and save bonuses.

So back to my original question: "If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus?" I think the answer is the ogre in question.

Ogre Fighter 20
Character Level = 24 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels)
Effective Character Level = 26 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels + 2 level adjust)
BAB = +19/+14/+9/+4 (+3 for 4 ogre HD, +16 for first 16 fighter levels)
EAB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 21, 23 and 25)
ESB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 22, 24 and 26)

LYour example is slightly off. You gain no EAB or ESB for your LA. So you would only gain EAB for 21st and 23rd level, and ESB for 22nd and 24th level.

The Bugbear in the example above would have a BAB of 19 (2 from 3HD of Bugbear, 14 from 14 Levels of Fighter, and 3 from 3 levels of Blackguard) with 20 total levels. From that point on he gains EAB and ESB instead of BAB or BSB.

On to the discrepancy between a Fighter20/Sorcerer20 vs. Sorcerer20/Fighter20. This exact problem is why I houseruled that your BAB is from your best class(es). Your base saves are still determined by your first 20 levels.
Legendarius
11-18-07, 03:33 PM Are you sure your level adjustment (and resulting effective character level) don't help you get your epic attack and save bonuses? The D&D FAQ dated 10/19, page 2, has the following:

"Use the character’s ECL to determine starting equipment
and how the character earns and benefits from experience
(including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG
p. 209), as noted on page 5 of Savage Species. Use the actual
character level for everything else."

of course, the following on page 3 of the same FAQ seems to contradict this:

"When is a monster character considered epic level? Do
you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when
your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible
for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its
character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?

A monster becomes an epic-level character when its
character level hits 21, just like any other character. A
monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class
levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level
Handbook.)

A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic
character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL
continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it
can add a new level."

L
Legendarius
11-18-07, 03:47 PM To add to this general confusion, it appears that in a lot of stat blocks they combine the base attack and epic attack bonuses together in the same base attack entry.

For example, in Dungeon 149, on page 50 where they list Iggwilv's stats, she's a human wizard 26/archmage 4. So her character level = effective character level because humans have a +0 level adjustment = 30.

They list her base attack as +15. But as a human wizard her base attack should have topped out at 20th level as +10. But as an epic character of 30th character level (and ECL) she has an epic attack bonus of +5 (for the five odd levels between 20 and 30). So did they just add these two and call that base attack in the stat block? They show her having three attacks with her staff at +20/+15/+10 (I assume the staff is giving her the +5 since her feats and STR don't seem to contribute) but a base attack of +10 only yields two attacks per round.

It seems to me this stat block is wrong and she should have +20/+15 to attack with her staff (base +10, epic +5, staff +5).

I guess I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. :-)

L
Puritan13
11-18-07, 05:28 PM Are you sure your level adjustment (and resulting effective character level) don't help you get your epic attack and save bonuses? The D&D FAQ dated 10/19, page 2, has the following:

"Use the character’s ECL to determine starting equipment
and how the character earns and benefits from experience
(including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG
p. 209), as noted on page 5 of Savage Species. Use the actual
character level for everything else."

of course, the following on page 3 of the same FAQ seems to contradict this:

"When is a monster character considered epic level? Do
you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when
your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible
for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its
character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?

A monster becomes an epic-level character when its
character level hits 21, just like any other character. A
monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class
levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level
Handbook.)

A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic
character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL
continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it
can add a new level."

LThe thing about Level adjustment is that it NEVER gives you any benefits (other than starting wealth). They are empty levels to make up for you playing a more powerful race. If you got attack bonuses and save bonuses from those levels it would completely defeat the purpose of said levels.

As far as Igwilliv (sp?), never underestimate the writers and their errors. By RAW, she only gets the 2 attacks her base attack bonus allows.

Take a look at the minotaur. This creature has 6 hit dice and a level adjustment of 2. When figuring out starting wealth and how much experience you need to advance a level only, you are considered an 8th level character. For all other purposes, you are 6th level. This remains true whether the character is epic or not.
runestar
11-18-07, 10:03 PM The ELH did state that a monster of ECL21 or more is eligible to take epic feats. For example, it gave an example of how a fighter13/blackguard3 with a LA+5 race could take epic feats as it had an ECL of 21.

It also stated to use character lv, rather than ECL to determine when epic progression rules kick in.

As such, this is what my understanding of epic rules boil down to.

1) Racial HD alone never triggers epic progression rules.
2) If you only have class lvs, you take epic bab/saves when you have 21 or more class lvs.
3) If you have racial HD, you start using epic bab/saves when the sum of your class lvs and racial HD exceed 20.
4) LA determines when you are eligible for epic feats (eg: a half-dragon sorc18 can take an epic feat), but not when you start using epic bab/saves rules.

R&R.:)
Legendarius
11-19-07, 07:06 AM And it appears that even if being ECL 21+ makes you eligible to take epic feats that you still only have the chance to take an epic feat when you hit a character level (HD+class levels) divisible by 3.

So, it would seem from what you say that if I have a character level of 18 I could take an epic feat in place of a regular feat so long as my ECL is at least 21 (meaning I'm an epic character)?

L

P.S. I guess this wasn't such a "quick question" after all
runestar
11-19-07, 09:05 AM P.S. I guess this wasn't such a "quick question" after all

Oh, the question was quick, all right.

The answer, however, proved to be much less forthcoming than one might have hoped...:D
rob_douglas
11-22-07, 12:12 AM Runestar has summarized it all well. You are right, it is not as simple as it would seem, and I think part of the problem is that some people at wotc didn't get the memo on how to calculate Epic Bonuses. :)

ROB
Garret Lightfoot
11-24-07, 07:38 PM Since this thread so closely ties to a question I have I am going to hijack the topic slightly to avoid the glares of starting such a similar thread on the same page... *coughcough*

Anyways, my question lies in what happens to this whole mess when you add Gestalt characters into the mix? Right now I am looking at playing in a really high-powered God campaign and don't even know where to begin in terms of figuring out attack bonuses and saves for it.

For example, I am currently considering a build like this:

Warblade 20/Fighter 20/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage (2)//Paragon/Natural Werecheetah/Rogue 21/Swordsage (1)/Warshaper 3/?

Thanks to anyone who can help me figure this confusion out. It has been one of many headaches in making my character.
runestar
11-24-07, 08:53 PM Epic kicks in when you have 21+ class lvs.

Gestalt shouldn't affect this status quo.

Your build is a mess, can you clarify which classes belong to which side?:confused:
Garret Lightfoot
11-24-07, 08:59 PM Sorry... I'm used to the // being used to break up the sides of a gestalt build that I forget that some people don't use them.

Side 1 - Warblade 20/Fighter 20/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage (2)
Side 2 - Paragon/Natural Werecheetah/Rogue 21/Swordsage (1)/Warshaper 3/?

Hope that helps clear things up.
BillTheManiac
11-25-07, 09:55 AM So the first 20 levels you use the warblade BAB (full). After that, you use epic BAB. Looks like total BAB=+33.
Same for saves. Paragon has about 18 LA, so you might get increases to warblade saves on the last 2 levels from the werecheeta class.
Garret Lightfoot
11-25-07, 04:37 PM So the first 20 levels you use the warblade BAB (full). After that, you use epic BAB. Looks like total BAB=+33.
Same for saves. Paragon has about 18 LA, so you might get increases to warblade saves on the last 2 levels from the werecheeta class.

Actually, the LA that we are using for Paragon creature (as it is undefined what its LA is) is 15 and one thing I didn't mention as I didn't think it was important to this exercise was we get 4 free LA.
BillTheManiac
11-26-07, 03:26 PM What saves do monstrous humanoids (or whatever werecheetas are) get vs. warblades? Probably none superior. In that case, just use warblade stats for the first 20 levels.
Garret Lightfoot
11-26-07, 03:34 PM Fort/Ref Good
Legendarius
11-28-07, 11:17 PM Looking at the 3.5 MM, I see the Frost Giant Jarl on page 122 should be an epic character since he has:

Racial HD = 14
Class HD (Blackguard) = 8
Level Adjustment = 4 (even though not listed this is right because plain frost giants have level adjustment right?)
for
Total HD/Character Level = 22
ECL = 26

yet despite this his slam attack is only +28 = +10 (giant) +8 (blackguard) +11 (STR) -1 (size).

So he apparently doesn't get an epic attack bonus?

On the flip side, how come his Fortitude save = +25? I see +6 (class) +9 (giant) +6 (CON) = +21. Where's the extra +4 coming from?

If he was getting an epic save bonus for ECL 26 that would equal +3 right? Or if it was based off of HD then it would be +1?

Still confused.

L
runestar
11-29-07, 03:14 AM I am not sure if the MM 3.5 uses the epic rules. Dragons of faerun clearly does not, nor does MM3. Serpent Kingdoms appears to, though I would go with Gerti's stats in the ELH, since that is supposed to be the book which covers epic rules.:P
Legendarius
11-29-07, 06:59 AM I looked at Gerti's stats in the ELH p. 294 and was confused there too since at a glance they only show she has 7 feats despite having HD 22 and an ECL of 27 (which is higher than the Jarl) which clearly seems wrong. I had assumed, perhaps falsely, that since ELH predated the 3.5 revision that they would apply the epic rules to 3.5 stat blocks (along with any epic updates for 3.5). I didn't see any Gerti updates in the ELH errata.

I couldn't figure out where her Runecaster prestige class came from so I wasn't sure what base attack bonus her 4 levels in that class provided to check whether her attack bonus included any sort of epic attack bonus.

L

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Legendarius 11-15-07, 07:53 PM	If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus? +23 (+3 for ogre from MM + 20 for fighter) or +20 (because he hits epic level after 20 HD (ogre + fighter 16) or other? L
Starmage21 11-15-07, 07:58 PM	If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus? +23 (+3 for ogre from MM + 20 for fighter) or +20 (because he hits epic level after 20 HD (ogre + fighter 16) or other? L Other +3 from being an Ogre(4HD, 2 LA), +14 from Fighter 14. Every level after that, youre using epic BAB rules for a PC Total BAB +17, but his total attack bonus is going to be +20 because he gets +3 Epic Attack Bonus for the 6 post Character Level 20 Fighter levels.
betrayor 11-15-07, 08:08 PM	I wouldn't agree with that. I think that EAB kicks in after Character level 21. So his attack bonus would be 21 3 because of racial hit dice 16 because of the first 16 levels of fighter and 2 from the rest 4 levels of fighter.
runestar 11-15-07, 09:12 PM	I agree with Betrayor, in that I would go with HD, rather than ECL. My rationale is that I see no reason why an ogre fighter20 npc should have different bab and base saves from an ogre fighter20 PC.
rob_douglas 11-16-07, 02:04 PM	Betrayor and Runestar have it. EAB kicks in based on character level, not ECL. ROB
Starmage21 11-17-07, 08:23 PM	Betrayor and Runestar have it. EAB kicks in based on character level, not ECL. ROB heh maybe the fact that ECL stands for Effective Character Level threw me off.
Legendarius 11-18-07, 10:55 AM	Thanks for the replies. I've been doing some digging and I'm beginning to think that it's character level, not ECL, that determines the base attack bonus but the epic attack bonus kicks in when you're ECL hits 21 (meaning it's possible that your base attack bonus might still increase some if you're still below 20 HD. I base this on the following from the 3.5 DMG, page 209, under the heading of Monsters as Epic Characters: "A bugbear (3HD and +2 Level Adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard) is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus." The sample bugbear is character level 20 and ECL 22. At this point his base attack bonus is fixed but apparently he doesn't have to wait until character level 22 to gain his epic bonuses. One odd thing about all this is that if I understand the rules right now, an epic Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 has a base attack of +10/+5 whereas a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20 has a base attack of +20/+15/+10/+5. The order by which you take your classes will definitely matter. Even though both are 40th level characters, the first only gets two attacks per round but the second gets four. Both would have the same number of spells per day though because that stops increasing at 20th level (ignoring bonus spells for high CHA). Both would have the same epic attack and save bonuses. So back to my original question: "If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus?" I think the answer is the ogre in question. Ogre Fighter 20 Character Level = 24 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels) Effective Character Level = 26 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels + 2 level adjust) BAB = +19/+14/+9/+4 (+3 for 4 ogre HD, +16 for first 16 fighter levels) EAB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 21, 23 and 25) ESB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 22, 24 and 26) L
Puritan13 11-18-07, 01:22 PM	Thanks for the replies. I've been doing some digging and I'm beginning to think that it's character level, not ECL, that determines the base attack bonus but the epic attack bonus kicks in when you're ECL hits 21 (meaning it's possible that your base attack bonus might still increase some if you're still below 20 HD. I base this on the following from the 3.5 DMG, page 209, under the heading of Monsters as Epic Characters: "A bugbear (3HD and +2 Level Adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard) is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus." The sample bugbear is character level 20 and ECL 22. At this point his base attack bonus is fixed but apparently he doesn't have to wait until character level 22 to gain his epic bonuses. One odd thing about all this is that if I understand the rules right now, an epic Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 has a base attack of +10/+5 whereas a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20 has a base attack of +20/+15/+10/+5. The order by which you take your classes will definitely matter. Even though both are 40th level characters, the first only gets two attacks per round but the second gets four. Both would have the same number of spells per day though because that stops increasing at 20th level (ignoring bonus spells for high CHA). Both would have the same epic attack and save bonuses. So back to my original question: "If I have an ogre which has 4 racial hit dice who is a 20th level fighter what's his base attack bonus?" I think the answer is the ogre in question. Ogre Fighter 20 Character Level = 24 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels) Effective Character Level = 26 (4 racial HD + 20 fighter levels + 2 level adjust) BAB = +19/+14/+9/+4 (+3 for 4 ogre HD, +16 for first 16 fighter levels) EAB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 21, 23 and 25) ESB = +3 (+1 for ECLs 22, 24 and 26) LYour example is slightly off. You gain no EAB or ESB for your LA. So you would only gain EAB for 21st and 23rd level, and ESB for 22nd and 24th level. The Bugbear in the example above would have a BAB of 19 (2 from 3HD of Bugbear, 14 from 14 Levels of Fighter, and 3 from 3 levels of Blackguard) with 20 total levels. From that point on he gains EAB and ESB instead of BAB or BSB. On to the discrepancy between a Fighter20/Sorcerer20 vs. Sorcerer20/Fighter20. This exact problem is why I houseruled that your BAB is from your best class(es). Your base saves are still determined by your first 20 levels.
Legendarius 11-18-07, 03:33 PM	Are you sure your level adjustment (and resulting effective character level) don't help you get your epic attack and save bonuses? The D&D FAQ dated 10/19, page 2, has the following: "Use the character’s ECL to determine starting equipment and how the character earns and benefits from experience (including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG p. 209), as noted on page 5 of Savage Species. Use the actual character level for everything else." of course, the following on page 3 of the same FAQ seems to contradict this: "When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+? A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.) A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level." L
Legendarius 11-18-07, 03:47 PM	To add to this general confusion, it appears that in a lot of stat blocks they combine the base attack and epic attack bonuses together in the same base attack entry. For example, in Dungeon 149, on page 50 where they list Iggwilv's stats, she's a human wizard 26/archmage 4. So her character level = effective character level because humans have a +0 level adjustment = 30. They list her base attack as +15. But as a human wizard her base attack should have topped out at 20th level as +10. But as an epic character of 30th character level (and ECL) she has an epic attack bonus of +5 (for the five odd levels between 20 and 30). So did they just add these two and call that base attack in the stat block? They show her having three attacks with her staff at +20/+15/+10 (I assume the staff is giving her the +5 since her feats and STR don't seem to contribute) but a base attack of +10 only yields two attacks per round. It seems to me this stat block is wrong and she should have +20/+15 to attack with her staff (base +10, epic +5, staff +5). I guess I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. :-) L
Puritan13 11-18-07, 05:28 PM	Are you sure your level adjustment (and resulting effective character level) don't help you get your epic attack and save bonuses? The D&D FAQ dated 10/19, page 2, has the following: "Use the character’s ECL to determine starting equipment and how the character earns and benefits from experience (including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG p. 209), as noted on page 5 of Savage Species. Use the actual character level for everything else." of course, the following on page 3 of the same FAQ seems to contradict this: "When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+? A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.) A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level." LThe thing about Level adjustment is that it NEVER gives you any benefits (other than starting wealth). They are empty levels to make up for you playing a more powerful race. If you got attack bonuses and save bonuses from those levels it would completely defeat the purpose of said levels. As far as Igwilliv (sp?), never underestimate the writers and their errors. By RAW, she only gets the 2 attacks her base attack bonus allows. Take a look at the minotaur. This creature has 6 hit dice and a level adjustment of 2. When figuring out starting wealth and how much experience you need to advance a level only, you are considered an 8th level character. For all other purposes, you are 6th level. This remains true whether the character is epic or not.
runestar 11-18-07, 10:03 PM	The ELH did state that a monster of ECL21 or more is eligible to take epic feats. For example, it gave an example of how a fighter13/blackguard3 with a LA+5 race could take epic feats as it had an ECL of 21. It also stated to use character lv, rather than ECL to determine when epic progression rules kick in. As such, this is what my understanding of epic rules boil down to. 1) Racial HD alone never triggers epic progression rules. 2) If you only have class lvs, you take epic bab/saves when you have 21 or more class lvs. 3) If you have racial HD, you start using epic bab/saves when the sum of your class lvs and racial HD exceed 20. 4) LA determines when you are eligible for epic feats (eg: a half-dragon sorc18 can take an epic feat), but not when you start using epic bab/saves rules. R&R.:)
Legendarius 11-19-07, 07:06 AM	And it appears that even if being ECL 21+ makes you eligible to take epic feats that you still only have the chance to take an epic feat when you hit a character level (HD+class levels) divisible by 3. So, it would seem from what you say that if I have a character level of 18 I could take an epic feat in place of a regular feat so long as my ECL is at least 21 (meaning I'm an epic character)? L P.S. I guess this wasn't such a "quick question" after all
runestar 11-19-07, 09:05 AM	P.S. I guess this wasn't such a "quick question" after all Oh, the question was quick, all right. The answer, however, proved to be much less forthcoming than one might have hoped...:D
rob_douglas 11-22-07, 12:12 AM	Runestar has summarized it all well. You are right, it is not as simple as it would seem, and I think part of the problem is that some people at wotc didn't get the memo on how to calculate Epic Bonuses. :) ROB
Garret Lightfoot 11-24-07, 07:38 PM	Since this thread so closely ties to a question I have I am going to hijack the topic slightly to avoid the glares of starting such a similar thread on the same page... coughcough Anyways, my question lies in what happens to this whole mess when you add Gestalt characters into the mix? Right now I am looking at playing in a really high-powered God campaign and don't even know where to begin in terms of figuring out attack bonuses and saves for it. For example, I am currently considering a build like this: Warblade 20/Fighter 20/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage (2)//Paragon/Natural Werecheetah/Rogue 21/Swordsage (1)/Warshaper 3/? Thanks to anyone who can help me figure this confusion out. It has been one of many headaches in making my character.
runestar 11-24-07, 08:53 PM	Epic kicks in when you have 21+ class lvs. Gestalt shouldn't affect this status quo. Your build is a mess, can you clarify which classes belong to which side?:confused:
Garret Lightfoot 11-24-07, 08:59 PM	Sorry... I'm used to the // being used to break up the sides of a gestalt build that I forget that some people don't use them. Side 1 - Warblade 20/Fighter 20/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage (2) Side 2 - Paragon/Natural Werecheetah/Rogue 21/Swordsage (1)/Warshaper 3/? Hope that helps clear things up.
BillTheManiac 11-25-07, 09:55 AM	So the first 20 levels you use the warblade BAB (full). After that, you use epic BAB. Looks like total BAB=+33. Same for saves. Paragon has about 18 LA, so you might get increases to warblade saves on the last 2 levels from the werecheeta class.
Garret Lightfoot 11-25-07, 04:37 PM	So the first 20 levels you use the warblade BAB (full). After that, you use epic BAB. Looks like total BAB=+33. Same for saves. Paragon has about 18 LA, so you might get increases to warblade saves on the last 2 levels from the werecheeta class. Actually, the LA that we are using for Paragon creature (as it is undefined what its LA is) is 15 and one thing I didn't mention as I didn't think it was important to this exercise was we get 4 free LA.
BillTheManiac 11-26-07, 03:26 PM	What saves do monstrous humanoids (or whatever werecheetas are) get vs. warblades? Probably none superior. In that case, just use warblade stats for the first 20 levels.
Garret Lightfoot 11-26-07, 03:34 PM	Fort/Ref Good
Legendarius 11-28-07, 11:17 PM	Looking at the 3.5 MM, I see the Frost Giant Jarl on page 122 should be an epic character since he has: Racial HD = 14 Class HD (Blackguard) = 8 Level Adjustment = 4 (even though not listed this is right because plain frost giants have level adjustment right?) for Total HD/Character Level = 22 ECL = 26 yet despite this his slam attack is only +28 = +10 (giant) +8 (blackguard) +11 (STR) -1 (size). So he apparently doesn't get an epic attack bonus? On the flip side, how come his Fortitude save = +25? I see +6 (class) +9 (giant) +6 (CON) = +21. Where's the extra +4 coming from? If he was getting an epic save bonus for ECL 26 that would equal +3 right? Or if it was based off of HD then it would be +1? Still confused. L
runestar 11-29-07, 03:14 AM	I am not sure if the MM 3.5 uses the epic rules. Dragons of faerun clearly does not, nor does MM3. Serpent Kingdoms appears to, though I would go with Gerti's stats in the ELH, since that is supposed to be the book which covers epic rules.:P
Legendarius 11-29-07, 06:59 AM	I looked at Gerti's stats in the ELH p. 294 and was confused there too since at a glance they only show she has 7 feats despite having HD 22 and an ECL of 27 (which is higher than the Jarl) which clearly seems wrong. I had assumed, perhaps falsely, that since ELH predated the 3.5 revision that they would apply the epic rules to 3.5 stat blocks (along with any epic updates for 3.5). I didn't see any Gerti updates in the ELH errata. I couldn't figure out where her Runecaster prestige class came from so I wasn't sure what base attack bonus her 4 levels in that class provided to check whether her attack bonus included any sort of epic attack bonus. L