Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voran 04-04-07, 06:41 AM	I was wondering how some reconcile the fact that Epic system is largely open ended, and that as we've seen on this board, in some cases levels get to ridiculous heights :) Compare that to the static abilities largely described to Divine type entities per Deities and Demigods, or whatever the 3.5 equivalent is. To a degree, Divine Rank helps mitigate some Epic effects, since in many cases Divine abilities include flat-out immunities that are only passable by higher order Divine Ranked beings. Anyhoo, I'm curious on how some people scale up Divine Rated entities/avatars/whatever in light of some insanely high Epic rated chars. Having an epic char that can slap around Zeus is pretty silly, even with the Epic is like level 50+. Should stats of a Divine from something like Deities and Demigods be considered proportional to a level-20 max scale, and you slap on another 10 or 20 or whatever character levels if the Divine entity faces an Epic char? Or is it just me that thinks even if you've got a Level 70 Epic Char, that doesn't mean you get to beat up Rank 7+ DvR beings?
Rutibex 04-04-07, 09:35 AM	If you're going to be useing divine and epic togeather you should re-build the gods useing the epic rules. Once you do you will find that your 50 level character is quite punny compared to Zeus (who I remember having something in the range of 65+ HD, that's a lot of epic feats).
Selgard 04-04-07, 09:56 AM	I remember reading in a book once (I think it was an FR book) that every world needs people who are more powerful than the PC's, and that the stat blocks of some folk will need to be adjusted to keep the players from simply conquering the world. Imo, this is especially true of the Gods. Until the characters have at least DR0 or DR1, there should be really no way for them to win. Whether you use Epic Rules or not, just always keep the gods 30+ levels higher than the PC's. The PC's never see the stats anyway.. and it sort of keeps things in perspective. (besides.. how silly would it start to become, if the character could threaten the god into granting him/her spells? :P)
Aluroon 04-04-07, 10:39 AM	Whether you use Epic Rules or not, just always keep the gods 30+ levels higher than the PC's. The PC's never see the stats anyway.. and it sort of keeps things in perspective. Thats really rather bad form. If the only way you can keep your PC's in line is by threatening them with higher level npcs and gods then you need to rethink your dming style. If the PC's are level 50 and they want to conquer the world then why railroad to stop them? At a certain point the PC's should be the most powerful players (no pun intended) in their world. To address the original thread creators question. You might want to check out dicefreaks. We officially cap mortals at level 49 (unofficially 50), while capping gods, outsiders, and other beings at 100hd, period, with the goal of creating a balanced and logical cosmology.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-04-07, 12:28 PM	To address the original thread creators question. You might want to check out dicefreaks. We officially cap mortals at level 49 (unofficially 50)... Okay, I have to ask: why 49? To answer the original question, a DM has 4 choices: 1. The gods are unstatted and therefore always more powerful than the PCs. 2. Choose a level cap (mine would be 40) that no being can surpass. Since gods get DR on top of those levels, they're always more powerful than PCs. 3. Stop the campaign before the PCs become as powerful as the gods. 4. Accept that the PCs will become more powerful than the gods, and work this fact into your campaign plans.
Witch 04-04-07, 12:32 PM	I thought the DF official cap was 50, not 49. Also, divine beings have a higher cap.
TheYeti1775 04-04-07, 02:06 PM	Also don't forget to include the fact all Divine Rank beings have 20 Outsider HD.:D
Witch 04-04-07, 02:15 PM	Also don't forget to include the fact all Divine Rank beings have 20 Outsider HD.:D Which is bad design. There's no reason for that. It only serves to cause the fact that spellcaster deities almost match the martial prowes of the martial deities.
Aluroon 04-04-07, 03:32 PM	Okay, I have to ask: why 49? Strictly speaking the cap on mortals is 50, but its generally agreed that things should not exceed 49 unless there is an extremely good reason, such beings should be world creaters, beyond legendary, or virtual paragons if what they represent (minus the template). Also don't forget to include the fact all Divine Rank beings have 20 Outsider HD. Which makes all the magic gods nearly as good in a fight as the warrior gods, takes away from the focus on each god, and reduces the caster level of magic gods. It should be removed, and it has with Dicefreaks.
TheYeti1775 04-04-07, 04:26 PM	Which makes all the magic gods nearly as good in a fight as the warrior gods, takes away from the focus on each god, and reduces the caster level of magic gods. It should be removed, and it has with Dicefreaks. Add the 20HD of Outsider after everything else. You will then keep your seperation you desire. Also nothing keeps you from rewriting it yourself in your own worlds.
Witch 04-04-07, 04:37 PM	Add the 20HD of Outsider after everything else. You will then keep your seperation you desire. Can't be done. Racial HD comes before class levels in calculations.
TheYeti1775 04-04-07, 04:50 PM	Can't be done. Racial HD comes before class levels in calculations. First off - Rule 0 - Anything can be done. Second the 20HD Outsider is gained upon gaining Divine Rank 0. So this is a case where te Class Levels can be abtained prior to the Racial HD. :D
Witch 04-04-07, 04:53 PM	First off - Rule 0 - Anything can be done. Ignoring fundamental design rules on a whim? Not a good idea. Ignoring a guideline that offers older deities 20 Outsider Hit Dice? Far less bad. Second the 20HD Outsider is gained upon gaining Divine Rank 0. So this is a case where te Class Levels can be abtained prior to the Racial HD. No, those 20 HD Outsider aren't. Ascended mortals aren't given DvR 0. Even if they would, this wouldn't change anything mechanically. Mechanically, the Outsider HD would still be counted first.
TheYeti1775 04-04-07, 05:11 PM	Ignoring fundamental design rules on a whim? Not a good idea. Ignoring a guideline that offers older deities 20 Outsider Hit Dice? Far less bad. If the design is failing you already what is the problem in making it fit your campaign. No, those 20 HD Outsider aren't. Ascended mortals aren't given DvR 0. Even if they would, this wouldn't change anything mechanically. Mechanically, the Outsider HD would still be counted first. Disagree because if you take reincarnate, your racial hit die can change after your class levels and you do not go back and change your class levels because of it. You don't forget what you have learned. Attributes can change physically but the mental stays the same. But that's only my take on it. Of course I have a break up Divine Rank 0 into 20 levels to represent those Outsider HD, and it makes it handy should any of my players ever aspire to play into those levels. Both Divine and Epic rules need a re-write anyways, might as well start in our own campaigns vice waiting on WOTC to fill a gap you need now. But to each there own. Yeti
bluemage55 04-04-07, 05:34 PM	Reincarnation does not ever give you racial HD. You merely acquire the ability scores and racial traits of the creature you are reincarnated as, similar to a permanent polymoprh. I agree that the outsider HD is a flawed design plan. DDG was produced at the same time as the ELH, and thus does not make use of most of the epic rules. The deities as statted within (and deities in additional books which follow the same pattern of avoiding epic rules) are terribly, terribly designed. The 20 outsider HD seems primarily as a way to make the deities stronger with minimal effort, and has silly consequences as suggested above.
Voran 04-04-07, 07:50 PM	Thanks for all the replies so far. Oh the issue of 20HD Outsider levelling the field, so to speak, between martial and non-martial deities, to a degree I agree. But then the portfolios of the various gods further split the available divine feats which can add to super combat goodness. Divine level stuff does seem largely diceless after a certain point anyhoo.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-04-07, 08:21 PM	Strictly speaking the cap on mortals is 50, but its generally agreed that things should not exceed 49 unless there is an extremely good reason, such beings should be world creaters, beyond legendary, or virtual paragons if what they represent (minus the template) Okay. Maybe I'll have to look into dice freaks myself, because that level cap still just sounds like the old 36th level cap in OD&D (?). No offense to the dice freaks folks, but weird numbers like that just bug me. And about the +20 HD thing, ya'll are really going to argue about THAT? Really?
Witch 04-04-07, 08:27 PM	Okay. Maybe I'll have to look into dice freaks myself, because that level cap still just sounds like the old 36th level cap in OD&D (?). No offense to the dice freaks folks, but weird numbers like that just bug me. And about the +20 HD thing, ya'll are really going to argue about THAT? Really? Dicefreaks officially caps at 50. 49 might just be an idea that "if it's not the absolute top you can achieve, it's not 50".
Tequila_Sunrise 04-04-07, 11:23 PM	Dicefreaks officially caps at 50. 49 might just be an idea that "if it's not the absolute top you can achieve, it's not 50". Maybe I'm just tired, but I'm still not following. I have the dicefreaks site, but I'd appreciate a pointer to the right sticky where this issue is displayed. Someday I'll get to know dicefreaks.com as well as this site, but I just don't have the time at the moment to search through it. Thanks, TS
Aluroon 04-05-07, 01:28 AM	Maybe I'm just tired, but I'm still not following. I have the dicefreaks site, but I'd appreciate a pointer to the right sticky where this issue is displayed. Someday I'll get to know dicefreaks.com as well as this site, but I just don't have the time at the moment to search through it. Thanks, TS http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=2768
Voran 04-05-07, 02:06 AM	Any thoughts on what Epic Spell seeds would be appropriate to add to a Divine's various spell-immunities? If I'm looking at it right, there'd actually be few seeds that can affect even a low rated Divine Rank. If assuming the base immunities of: Transmutation (Immune to polymorph, petrification or any other attack that alters its form) would that be Seed: Transform Immunities to Energy Drain, Ability Drain and ability Damage: Would fall under which Seed? Mind Affect Effects: That's still quite a bit, Seeds of Afflict, Compel, anything else? Immunity to Energy: Immune to some aspects of Seed: Energy, elec, cold, acid base, more per individual deity. Assuming rank 1 DvR, also immunity to Seed: Destruction, Seed: Slay At least DvR 6, also would be immune to Seed: banish Seed: Summon Man that actually nulls most of the Seeds except the beneficial ones :P
rob_douglas 04-05-07, 02:35 AM	I would allow factors in Epic spells to overcome immunities - and yes, that includes deific immunity. IMO, Epic Spells are how mortals can threaten or become gods. As for the 20 Outsider HD, ditching them is a huge benefit for redesigned gods. Actually, you don't ditch them, you convert them to class levels. That might be what some are missing. Which seems more like the god of magic: Outsider20/wizard20/cleric20 or Wizard55/Archmage5 As for designing gods to work in your campaign, even Deities and Demigods addressed this in a side-bar on using the ELH. It said that if your campaign uses epic characters, you should add epic levels to the gods as well. IMC, I am using a variant of the Dicefreaks rules. At 40th level, mortals will stop advancing, and can only advance then as gods. They will continue to gain levels as well as Divine Ranks then. It is possible to attain Qasi or Demigod hood as early as 30th level. This supports the basic structure of powerful beings within my campaign world - Greyhawk. There are no 30th level characters running around, except for beings like Murlynd, Keoghtom, and Heward, and Kelanen. Gods will have up to 60 levels, no Outsider HD as Greater Gods. There may be something "above" gods as well, and it may or may not eventually be statted. There is an overgod concept - Tharizdun, if returned from his imprisonment would be more powerful than any other god - and might have the power to remake the multiverse. My world is less interactive with other WotC worlds, so I don't have to worry about deific cross-talk and level interference. You do need to develop a cosmology for your campaign in order to play in which the characters interact amongst the various tiers.... TS's list of 4 choices seems to be about right - how do gods and mortals exist together? What are their niches? ROB
Tequila_Sunrise 04-05-07, 07:59 AM	Thanks, Aluroon. Hm, no mention of 49 HD. Well, now I have to figure out why these HD caps are all different and weird. --And so begins TS's delve into dicefreaks...
Aluroon 04-05-07, 04:20 PM	Thanks, Aluroon. Hm, no mention of 49 HD. Well, now I have to figure out why these HD caps are all different and weird. --And so begins TS's delve into dicefreaks... Hit Dice: Abberation: 100 HD Animal: 50 HD Construct***: 300 HD Dragon: 100 HD Elemental***: 300 HD Fey: 75 HD Giant: 75 HD Humanoid: 50 HD Magical Beast: 100 HD Monstrous Humanoid: 50 HD Ooze: 100 HD Outsider*: 100 HD Plant***: 150 HD Undead**: 100 HD Vermin***: 150 HD * Deities use these guidelines instead; outsiders with the native subtype determine their maximum HD as humanoids. ** Templated undead determine maximum Hit Dice by their base creature's type. *** These exceed 100 to account for creatures from the Epic Level Handbook. In practice, very, very few beings will ever reach these limits; in most cases they'll be at least one die less (49 HD humanoids, 69 HD greater deities, 99 HD outsiders, etc). Formating is mine.
Daydreamer 04-06-07, 06:35 PM	Not a solution, just a commentary. releasing dieties and demigods before epic level handbook=BAD IDEA.