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| Upper_Krust05-29-07, 03:18 PM | Hey all! :) Thought this might be of interest here. I posted a revision of the Fighter Class (Levels 1-40) on my website... http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon6a.htm As I mention on the website, my reasons for revising the class are threefold: firstly to help speed up character creation (by removing random feats); secondly to better balance the class (primarily at epic levels) and lastly just to give it better flavour (again primarily at epic levels). Any comments? |
| Grandmaster_Kane05-29-07, 03:27 PM | Wow fighter doesnt suck anymore |
| bluemage5505-29-07, 05:45 PM | Wow fighter doesnt suck anymore It never did suck at what it's supposed to be good at (dishing out damage), but its biggest weakness was versatility. The other problems included front-loading, terrible skills, and numerous dead levels. The result is that very few want to play a straight fighter because its often more beneficial for dipping, and because it's not as fun to play as other classes (who have more viable options during combat, Unfortunately, I find that this version has even less versatility due to the removal of bonus feats, although it does address the front-loading problem. I also take issue with the abandonment of the standard epic progression rules. I did a revision of the fighter class myself a while back, drawing inspiration from the warblade class from Tome of Battle. This is what I came up with: FIGHTER Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d10. Class Skills The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Fighter Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny dodge 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus feat 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Weapon specialization 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Improved uncanny dodge 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Improved weapon focus 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Bonus feat 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Battle cunning 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Improved weapon specialization 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Battle skill 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus feat 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Greater weapon focus 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Battle mastery 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Greater weapon specialization Class Features All of the following are class features of the fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus every two fighter levels thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing those feats. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter retains his or her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he or she still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he or she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Weapon Specialization (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a fighter gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls with any weapon for which the fighter has selected Weapon Focus. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him or her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character. Improved Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a fighter’s bonus to attack rolls from Weapon Focus increases to +2. Battle Cunning (Ex): Starting at 10th level, a fighter gains an insight bonus equal to his or her Intelligence bonus (maximum equals fighter level) on melee damage rolls against flat-footed or flanked opponents. Improved Weapon Specialization (Ex): Starting at 12th level, a fighter’s bonus to damage rolls from Weapon Specialization increases to +4. Battle Skill (Ex): Starting at 14th level, a fighter gains an insight bonus equal to his or her Intelligence bonus (maximum equals fighter level) on any check made to oppose an enemy bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt. Greater Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 16th level, a fighter’s bonus to attack rolls from Weapon Focus increases to +3. Battle Mastery (Ex): Starting at 18th level, a fighter gains an insight bonus equal to his or her Intelligence bonus (maximum equals fighter level) on melee attack and damage rolls whenever he or she makes an attack of opportunity. Greater Weapon Specialization (Ex): Starting at 20th level, a fighter’s bonus to damage rolls from Weapon Specialization increases to +6. The expanded class skills allow a fighter have several flavor-apporpriate skills (for example, Diplomacy for commanding troops and Knowledge (history) for knowledge of martial lore) The additional abilties taken from the Warblade class make the fighter a true expert at combat maneuvers and at exploiting tactical openings. The integration of the Weapon Focus/Spec feats into the class frees up bonus feats for additional versatility or Martial Study (see below). In addition, I allow fighters to use their full class level as their initiatiator level when taking the Martial Study feat, and allow them to recover the use of any maneuver automatically 1d4 rounds after use, but only for maneuvers from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven disciplines. |
| Grandmaster_Kane05-29-07, 07:50 PM | Blue fighter did suck before It's only saving grace was the bonus feats |
| bluemage5505-29-07, 09:10 PM | Blue fighter did suck before It's only saving grace was the bonus feats That's like saying that wizards suck, with their only saving grace being their spells. :rolleyes: The RAW fighter can deal superb amounts of damage. The problem is that their abilities more or less stops there. No transport, no battlefield control, no interaction skills, no stealth, no detection, etc. Careful selection of magic items mitigates their combat-oriented weaknesses (such as low saves, no ability to dispel, etc.) but certain things are just a bummer (like low skill points, and very few effective combat options). The RAW fighter is still an effective party member for combat, but just a pack mule outside of combat. |
| Gemstone05-30-07, 05:47 AM | The RAW fighter is still an effective party member for combat, but just a pack mule outside of combat. Agreed. The fighter was never weak in combat, but oustide combat... not good enough |
| Alias05-30-07, 11:42 AM | You guys are missing the point. It's a fighter. The point of the class is to kill stuff. If you want to be able to do things out of combat, you multiclass or dump ranks into cross-class skills. Any comments? Just a few. Like blue said, getting rid of the feats killed its versatility - now it's locked into a boring progression, and all fighters will be cookie-cutter clones of each other. Why do they get 8 skill points per level? Giving them Weapon Spec and Weapon Focus is way too much. They dish out tons of damage already, and have a high BAB, so they can hit anything anyway. Same with extended crits/crit ranges - that's a Weaponmaster ability, and should stay under the purview of a PrC (or maybe a feat), as it reflects specialized training. The BAB thing looked cool at first glance, until I mentioned it to my friend and he said, "But... you don't have to take all your attacks normally anyway." And I thought about it, and I realized he was right - this does nothing, really, beyond keeping the same BAB progression, which our group has used for years anyway - we just cap the number of attacks at 4. Why do fighters get a high Reflex save? Again, it looks like you're combining Weaponmaster with Fighter. This one gets a big thumbs down from me. I'll take my ultimately customizable fighter with a load of bonus feats. I've never had a problem making an interesting character with all the choices available, even without PrCs. |
| Upper_Krust05-30-07, 12:21 PM | Howdy Alias! :) Just a few. Fire away. Like blue said, getting rid of the feats killed its versatility - now it's locked into a boring progression, and all fighters will be cookie-cutter clones of each other. In my defense, that revised Fighter was designed to co-exist with Metamartial Maneouvres; which is a quick set of rules I developed to spice up combat. In a nutshell, any character can add one or more types of attack by taking a BAB penalty to the roll. There are about 20 types of attacks such as: disarm, stun, kill, knockout, trip etc. This means that there are three avenues of combat: 1) Generic Boosting (which is included in my Revised Fighter Class) 2) Special Attacks (included in the Metamartial Maneouvres) 3) Attack/Defense Style (which you would pick using your regular feats - Two-Weapon Fighting style, Point Blank Shot, Mounted Combat, Dodge etc.) Why do they get 8 skill points per level? I'm probably going to change that back to the standard model but with 4 points per level + Int mod. Giving them Weapon Spec and Weapon Focus is way too much. They dish out tons of damage already, and have a high BAB, so they can hit anything anyway. Same with extended crits/crit ranges - that's a Weaponmaster ability, and should stay under the purview of a PrC (or maybe a feat), as it reflects specialized training. A Fighter IS a weapon master! Otherwise what the heck is the point of continuing Fighter progression!? The BAB thing looked cool at first glance, until I mentioned it to my friend and he said, "But... you don't have to take all your attacks normally anyway." And I thought about it, and I realized he was right - this does nothing, really, beyond keeping the same BAB progression, which our group has used for years anyway - we just cap the number of attacks at 4. Well its quicker, makes more sense and arguably promotes more tactical thinking. Why do fighters get a high Reflex save? Again, it looks like you're combining Weaponmaster with Fighter. I couldn't think of a logical reason why Fighters wouldn't have a good reflex saving throw. Surely a good part of their training is geared towards avoiding attacks. This one gets a big thumbs down from me. I'll take my ultimately customizable fighter with a load of bonus feats. I've never had a problem making an interesting character with all the choices available, even without PrCs. Sorry its not your thing, although that could just be due to a lack of explanation of Metamartial Maneouvres. Thanks for the feedback though. :) |
| kreesteeyan05-30-07, 12:27 PM | Druids and clerics and wizards and sorcerers beat the fighter in his own turf! I've seen a druid's animal companion shred an enemy into pieces faster than our party fighter can. I've seen a combat oriented cleric do better than our party fighter. Yes fighter can kill stuff but the other classes make him feel redundant in combat. He is not weak but he lacks something unique. Redundant in combat and useless outside combat. :( |
| bluemage5505-30-07, 01:12 PM | Druids and clerics and wizards and sorcerers beat the fighter in his own turf! Druids and clerics do beat the fighter on his own turf, but wizards and sorcerers do not. A druid or cleric designed to be a tank does an amazing job (better than any actual melee class), at least pre-epic, but arcane spellcasters don't come close (they are all far too fragile and buff dependent). However, the fact that CoDzilla beats the fighter is only indicative that CoDzilla is overpowered, as they seem to beat everyone on their own turf, be it fighter, wizard, or rogue. |
| TheYeti177505-30-07, 01:27 PM | You guys are missing the point. It's a fighter. The point of the class is to kill stuff. If you want to be able to do things out of combat, you multiclass or dump ranks into cross-class skills. Definitely have to agree with Alias, I have a straight Fighter that I love, but I play him as a Charismatic Type. His Ability Score increases have all been to his Charima, and he does take cross class skills quite often. Yeti |
| bluemage5505-30-07, 02:28 PM | You guys are missing the point. It's a fighter. The point of the class is to kill stuff. If you want to be able to do things out of combat, you multiclass or dump ranks into cross-class skills. If that's true, then you are basically recommending that the fighter should be used as a multi-class dipping tool (as basic optimization does with a 2- or 4-level dip). The point of every martial class is to kill stuff. That doesn't meant that they shouldn't be able to do other things too. I see nothing about the fighter that makes it insanely better at killing things than the barbarian, paladin, or ranger, and yet it gets shafted in the versatility department like no other (despite the fact that it is supposed to be the most versatile). |
| Rikandur_Azebol05-30-07, 03:32 PM | Point is, that Fighters as written in SDR are barely able to survive combat with Equal CR critter. That doesn't uses magics. Can rogue live without magic items that boost his abilites ? Yes, and still be sucessfull even if less devastating that fully twinked rogue. Can wizard/cleric live without magic items ? Sure, and those two classes will most likely suffer the least from that. Can fighter live without magic items ? Sure ... but he have to drop his adventuring career and start working at blacksmith's. Why fighter is the most damaged class when it's robbed of fancy magic sword/shield/armor ? I wonder why it happens to fighters only. Perhaps class itself is lacking something ? Some people claim that fighters cause "avesome damage" and that's the class's role. I whole heartedly disagree. Fighter is a guy who fights, and should be capable of winning on his own. And at higer levels it's near impossible. |
| Upper_Krust05-30-07, 05:34 PM | Hi Rikandur mate! :) Point is, that Fighters as written in SDR are barely able to survive combat with Equal CR critter. That doesn't uses magics. Can rogue live without magic items that boost his abilites ? Yes, and still be sucessfull even if less devastating that fully twinked rogue. Can wizard/cleric live without magic items ? Sure, and those two classes will most likely suffer the least from that. Can fighter live without magic items ? Sure ... but he have to drop his adventuring career and start working at blacksmith's. Why fighter is the most damaged class when it's robbed of fancy magic sword/shield/armor ? I wonder why it happens to fighters only. Perhaps class itself is lacking something ? Some people claim that fighters cause "avesome damage" and that's the class's role. I whole heartedly disagree. Fighter is a guy who fights, and should be capable of winning on his own. And at higer levels it's near impossible. Thats one of the reasons behind the revision. To better design the fighter to operate at high and epic levels without being outshone by the other classes (primarily spellcasters). If my initial design doesn't achieve that then where do you guys think it is lacking? |
| bluemage5505-30-07, 06:49 PM | If my initial design doesn't achieve that then where do you guys think it is lacking? Bring back the bonus feats. They are a major source of the fighter's flexibility. Add Martial Study to the fighter's bonus feat list and give them full initiator level for Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. Go back to regular skills, and expand the skill tree. Restore the standard epic progression. See the revision I posted for ideas; you may take whatever you'd like. |
| Rikandur_Azebol05-31-07, 12:26 AM | Hi U_K mate ! :) I'm sorry but I can't help with Your fighter, due to fact that somehow I couldn't acess Your site for some weird reasons. :confused: My browser machine says it responds too slowly.:rolleyes: Bluemage55, I belive that Fighter will lose a bit if made into martial class, mimicking those from ToB. He should be more versatile in combat ... and that would make me content. For example he could have bonus HP now and then to increase fighter's survivability. Better version of Improved Toughness, for example. Or feat that lets fighters use Str modifier for extra HP per lvl. In 2edition fighters got better Str modifier and Con modifier than other classess. It made him toughter and stronger than anyone else in the party. I would like this thingie to return now. :D |
| Gemstone05-31-07, 12:48 AM | Can fighter live without magic items ? Sure ... but he have to drop his adventuring career and start working at blacksmith's. Why fighter is the most damaged class when it's robbed of fancy magic sword/shield/armor ? I wonder why it happens to fighters only I haven't seen this happen really. A simple level 1 spell from the groups cleric will solve the problem with not having an enchanted sword and since damage reduction nowdays are x/whatever you got, fighters aren't really as damaged by itemloss anymore as far as I can see. The only thing they really lack is good saves. I'm probably gonna bump all their saves to good :) |
| bluemage5505-31-07, 02:36 AM | The only thing they really lack is good saves. I'm probably gonna bump all their saves to good :) That's what some of the Diamond Mind maneuvers are for. ;) |
| bluemage5505-31-07, 02:37 AM | Bluemage55, I belive that Fighter will lose a bit if made into martial class, mimicking those from ToB. He should be more versatile in combat ... and that would make me content. For example he could have bonus HP now and then to increase fighter's survivability. Better version of Improved Toughness, for example. Or feat that lets fighters use Str modifier for extra HP per lvl. In 2edition fighters got better Str modifier and Con modifier than other classess. It made him toughter and stronger than anyone else in the party. I would like this thingie to return now. :D I'm not making it into a martial class, I'm giving the option for the fighter to learn a few maneuvers if they want to spend feats to do so. |
| Gemstone05-31-07, 07:54 AM | That's what some of the Diamond Mind maneuvers are for. ;) But doesn't those just do it for a limited amount of time, or until you change stance? Because I'm bumping them up permanently :) |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 09:08 AM | Hi bluemage55 dude! :) Thanks for the help. Bring back the bonus feats. They are a major source of the fighter's flexibility. The number one priority of my revised class is to do away with bonus feats as class features. Add Martial Study to the fighter's bonus feat list and give them full initiator level for Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. Okay, I know these are all from the Tome of Battle, but I don't have that book yet (even though I have had it on order at my FLGS for 8 months - I kid you not, don't ask, the guy's useless). Also the above sound like specialist feats rather than generic Fighter abilities...although not having the ToB I could well be wrong. Go back to regular skills, and expand the skill tree. I plan to. Restore the standard epic progression. I don't think so, that would defeat the purpose of a revision. However, I will update a revision of my revised Fighter tonight, maybe that will be more palatable. I have went over the math and I think I see where I was wrong. See the revision I posted for ideas; you may take whatever you'd like. Thanks. |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 09:11 AM | Hi U_K mate ! :) Howdy Rikandur dude! :D I'm sorry but I can't help with Your fighter, due to fact that somehow I couldn't acess Your site for some weird reasons. :confused: My browser machine says it responds too slowly.:rolleyes: That is weird - what the heck are you on 28 kbps dial-up? :confused: You can't access the link in my sig even? |
| kreesteeyan05-31-07, 09:40 AM | Sup U_K. Nice fix. I enjoy reading your version. But I find its lack of bonus feats disturbing. :D I agree with some posters that bonus feats should be brought back. Your version is too focused on weapon-oriented that other fighting styles are not very doable. I don't want to lose the flexibility RAW fighter gives. I couldn't think of a logical reason why Fighters wouldn't have a good reflex saving throw. Surely a good part of their training is geared towards avoiding attacks. How about bonus AC every few levels? |
| bluemage5505-31-07, 09:57 AM | The number one priority of my revised class is to do away with bonus feats as class features. Why? The bonus feats are the signature ability of the fighter; taking them away is like taking away a barbarian's rage or a rogue's sneak attack. |
| Taeldrin Laesrash05-31-07, 10:11 AM | If I may butt in, I myself made a Fighter fix (It's in my sig). One of the key issues of the fighter is versatility, so I solved it by allowing them to access many feats through Weapon Aptitude and an ability which lets them switch out any [Fighter] feat. To deal with the issue of 'I don't have a magic weapon, I can't damage it', I gave the fix an ability to ignore DR. Finally, I also expanded their skill points. The list hasn't changed, but cross-class skills are the key to a rich and fufilling life. So that's what I have to say. UK, I like what you did, but I do agree that bonus feats are one of the biggest things about the fighter, and are what make it so interesting and versatile. Also, Exotic Weapon Mastery seems unneccesary. |
| Pitiless_Interfector05-31-07, 10:11 AM | You're forgetting that fighter bonus feats can be used to get ki powers. With feats like those in PHB2 and Sandstorm, you can have a fighter hurl fireballs just as effectively as a monk. Of course, then, you'll want to play a monk. But still... |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 10:19 AM | Sup U_K. Hey there kreesteeyan! :) Nice fix. I enjoy reading your version. But I find its lack of bonus feats disturbing. :D I agree with some posters that bonus feats should be brought back. Your version is too focused on weapon-oriented that other fighting styles are not very doable. I don't want to lose the flexibility RAW fighter gives. I am hearing this a lot. I understand people think I am doing away with flexibility, and to an extent I am. But to reiterate, the revised class is to be played with my metamartial maneouvres which is like giving away twenty free combat oriented feats! So all the action based feats you are technically getting for free! Which leaves generic boosts (included in the class features) and combat style (which you would take using your main feats). How about bonus AC every few levels? I already have that (I'm calling it Weapon Deflect) inserted into the revised revised build - I suppose great minds think alike. ;) |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 10:27 AM | Why? I think that bonus feats (especially for Fighters) are one of the primary time wasters in character creation. What I am trying to do is boil the Fighter down to its essence, by hard-wiring the most likely feats into the class features. Also bonus feats are not class features, but rather a lack of class features. Its not a class feature its a class ambiguity which is probably why most high-level warriors will quickly segue into a Prestige Class or one of the Tome of Battle classes. The bonus feats are the signature ability of the fighter; taking them away is like taking away a barbarian's rage or a rogue's sneak attack. I disagree. Bonus feats are far too ambiguous to be considered a signature ability. |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 10:38 AM | Hey Taeldrin Laesrash! :) If I may butt in, The more the merrier! :D I myself made a Fighter fix (It's in my sig). Cool. I see we were thinking along similar lines. One of the key issues of the fighter is versatility, so I solved it by allowing them to access many feats through Weapon Aptitude and an ability which lets them switch out any [Fighter] feat. Similar in theory to my own ideas. To deal with the issue of 'I don't have a magic weapon, I can't damage it', I gave the fix an ability to ignore DR. Not sure I like that. It seems to do away with damage reduction and materials altogether. Finally, I also expanded their skill points. The list hasn't changed, but cross-class skills are the key to a rich and fufilling life. Makes sense. So that's what I have to say. UK, I like what you did, but I do agree that bonus feats are one of the biggest things about the fighter, and are what make it so interesting and versatile. Bonus feats are the main culprit I am trying to eliminate. A touch less versatility with a tad more focus. Also, Exotic Weapon Mastery seems unneccesary. Well it just means that someone trained with the Longsword could pick up a Bastard Sword and would have enough knowledge to be able to quickly adapt to the new weapon. |
| Alias05-31-07, 12:46 PM | A Fighter IS a weapon master! Otherwise what the heck is the point of continuing Fighter progression!? No... a fighter is a fighter. A Weaponmaster is a fighter who is specialized in a single weapon, to the point where he can do things that would amaze an ordinary fighter. There was an example in one of the books (I'm not even sure which edition) about weapon specialization or mastery - it compared a normal fencer (someone who's merely proficient in a blade) and an Olympic fencer (someone who has mastery in the blade). A Weaponmaster is someone who would have mastery in the blade, and could tear a normal fighter up one-on-one. I couldn't think of a logical reason why Fighters wouldn't have a good reflex saving throw. Surely a good part of their training is geared towards avoiding attacks. Depends on the type of fighter. Sure, some of them would be trained to fight in light armor and depend on speed and grace (swashbucklers, for instance), but some are more inclined to wear heavy armor and just take the hits and keep on coming, relying on strength, their armor/shield, and sheer toughness to win the day (the archetypal "tank fighter"). If you had an option to pick which high save you wanted, I could see that being viable, but not giving them both. Sorry its not your thing, although that could just be due to a lack of explanation of Metamartial Maneouvres. Could well be. I'd like to see these things, personally. If that's true, then you are basically recommending that the fighter should be used as a multi-class dipping tool (as basic optimization does with a 2- or 4-level dip). You've got it backwards. Dipping for a few levels into fighter does not a fighter make - that's a class with a few fighter levels. Taking many levels in fighter and dropping a few skill points here and there into cross-class skills, or a few levels in another class, is a fighter with extra skills. I see nothing about the fighter that makes it insanely better at killing things than the barbarian, paladin, or ranger, and yet it gets shafted in the versatility department like no other (despite the fact that it is supposed to be the most versatile) Despite the fact that it gets more feats than any two other classes put together? Sure, it doesn't have the versatility of, say, a cleric or wizard, but a fighter with a decent choice of feats and magic items can easily hold his own in a party. Point is, that Fighters as written in SDR are barely able to survive combat with Equal CR critter. That doesn't uses magics. What kind of fighter do you play? And why are you running around alone? Fighters can take things on solo, but they come into their own when they have support - mages/clerics buffing them, rogues providing flanking, and bards inspiring them in battle. For example he could have bonus HP now and then to increase fighter's survivability. Dude.. it gets d10 hp. Unless you want to give it d12, he doesn't really need anymore. I disagree. Bonus feats are far too ambiguous to be considered a signature ability. Bonus feats enable the player to make the kind of fighter (s)he wants to play. No other class, except maybe the sorcerer or wizard, has this degree of customizability. Also bonus feats are not class features, but rather a lack of class features. Its not a class feature its a class ambiguity which is probably why most high-level warriors will quickly segue into a Prestige Class or one of the Tome of Battle classes. High-level fighters multi-class or take Prcs because there are no decent high-level fighter feats (or weren't, before the PHBII came out). By L10-12, most fighters had taken all the feats they wanted or needed, and there wasn't any further reason to take more levels in the class, so they go for something more useful - PrCs that enable them to focus on killing stuff better (the Weaponmaster) or that complement their fighting style (the Duelist), or take levels in another class entirely. |
| Gemstone05-31-07, 12:51 PM | Bonus feats are the main culprit I am trying to eliminate. A touch less versatility with a tad more focus. Care to elaborate exactly why you choose to remove the fighters bonus feats? IMO, that's what makes the class worth playing. you don't have to make a damaging tank, but can aim for tripping, grappling, archery etc. Well it just means that someone trained with the Longsword could pick up a Bastard Sword and would have enough knowledge to be able to quickly adapt to the new weapon. I solved this by letting weapon focus apply to a weapon group, such as swords. |
| Aracor05-31-07, 01:14 PM | Point is, that Fighters as written in SDR are barely able to survive combat with Equal CR critter. That doesn't uses magics. I hate this argument. D&D is not based around a solo adventurer. It can kinda work, but that's not what it's based around, and it's not what it's balanced for. So saying that a fighter can't stand alone against a critter of its CR is not only unimportant, it's like saying a wizard can't stand against an assassin with improved invisibility who gets the drop on him. True? Probably. But not the point. I've seen many very successful fighters played, even straight fighters from 1 to nearly 20 before the campaign ended. They were able to deal amazing amounts of damage, and they were very successful party members. |
| askala305-31-07, 02:23 PM | Well, with three revisions wandering around already it shows that people think the fighter needs reworking, especially considering all it gets over the NPC class Warrior is bonus feats (and 21 hp over 20 levels). Personally, I think I like bluemage55's version the best. Skills: The fighter's list of skills is rather small, and he often has low Int so he will not have a great selection of skills (or not be very good with said skills). Even just bumping his skills to 4+Int (as TL did) would work here. Saves: For the sake of simplicity I would probably just say no to good reflex saves. If I was to give them better reflex saves, it would by giving them the grace ability of a swashbuckler. (+1 Reflex per 6 levels) Bonus Feats: Not knowing what U_K's metamartial maneuvers look like puts a hamper on deciding this one. Bonus feats should be every odd level, to prevent front loading of powers. Also, bonus feats at every odd also is useful in preventing 6th,12th and 18th from being super-levels. (Onto specific build things) Taeldrin Laesrash's version: :b:Weapon Aptitude: Either this as a class feature, or appling feats to weapon groups or PHB2 based retraining as general rules would be nice. :b:Combat Training: A good way of adding power to the class without just dumping bonus feats on it, but as opposed to Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization? :b:Penetrating Blow: This can over come DR/- as well as DR/alignment & material, which makes it fairly powerful (esp the DR/-). I would suggest making it similar to ki strike(magic) and leaving it there. :b:Greater Weapon Aptitude: As Weapon Aptitude. bluemage55's version: :b:Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge: Why does the fighter not already have these? :b:Weapon Feats: As TL's Combat Training, a good way of adding power to the class without just dumping bonus feats on it. :b:Battle Cunning/Battle Skill/Battle Mastery: Awesome, a reason to have decent Int on a fighter! Actually, would they stack (Cunning and Mastery, AoO vs flanked)? Upper_Krust's version: :b:Loss of bonus feats: Without seeing the metamartial maneuvers this is hard to call. :b:Weapon Feats: I've made this comment before I think… A good way of adding power to the class without just dumping bonus feats on it. :b:Improved Critical Mulitplier: :) :b:Eclectic Weapon Mastery: :D Time to find the thread talking about enchanting an Orc to be flaming. :b:Canning Epic Attack/Save progression: Good. These rules do not apply to racial HD, so why should they exist for PCs? The justification for Epic Attack Bonuses in the ELH is inadequate at best, while the one for epic saves is shakey. Dropping those two rules makes Iron Will and the like more desireable feats and allows the fighter to power attack more (or whatever he wants to do with the extra to hit). |
| rob_douglas05-31-07, 02:31 PM | I know I am going to regret jumping in here, but I also see no problem with the current fighter. Making up a 30th level fighter, I still find that I don't have all the feat I want. To make a good PC - someone fun to play who has options throughout the game, the fighter is a really nice option. Someone said, why not give them more HP - go ahead and do it - give them Improved Toughness yourself, you don't need to make it a class feature. They get so many feats that they are sometimes the only ones that can afford to take some of the more esoteric ones. Sure, you can build a character to take some of these, but no one else can afford to take: Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Leadership, Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack, Skill Focus, and a complete set of single weapon focus/specializtion/critical feats. At Epic level, they can add in Epic Leadership & Legendary Commander, Epic Will, Epic Reflexes, Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, Fast Healing, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Epic Toughness, and Epic Skill Focus. Most other characters can't afford to take more than one of that set of feats in their career, they don't get enough feats to do it. And Leadership alone increases the Fighter Player's options in the game, usually by taking a spellcasting cohort - or heck, make is a dragon to use as a mount! So the fighter should have the best Attack Bonus and damage per attack. He should have better saves than any other melee (barring the Paladin, who is somewhat limited in ability when NOT facing evil creatures). Fighters don't have a special set of abilities, they have the ability to use feats to be the kind of fighter you want them to be. ROB |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 06:29 PM | Hi Alias! :) No... a fighter is a fighter. A Weaponmaster is a fighter who is specialized in a single weapon, to the point where he can do things that would amaze an ordinary fighter. I see what you are trying to say but for me your approach just makes the Fighter redundant. To me the Fighter should be hands down the best "Fighter" - theres a clue in the name - it should do exactly what it says on the tin! :D Why play a Fighter when you can play a Weapon Master or a Warblade who are better at fighting than a Fighter. Its like, lets make all the vanilla Fighter purposefully bland and weak and keep all the cool exciting stuff for combat based splatbook number #36. There was an example in one of the books (I'm not even sure which edition) about weapon specialization or mastery - it compared a normal fencer (someone who's merely proficient in a blade) and an Olympic fencer (someone who has mastery in the blade). A Weaponmaster is someone who would have mastery in the blade, and could tear a normal fighter up one-on-one. I'm sorry but its just like comparing a Fighter to a Warrior NPC class. No PC wants to be simply 'mediocre'. Would you study fighting at the Fighter school or the WeaponMaster school who routinely kick sand in the Fighter school student's faces!? :P Depends on the type of fighter. Sure, some of them would be trained to fight in light armor and depend on speed and grace (swashbucklers, for instance), but some are more inclined to wear heavy armor and just take the hits and keep on coming, relying on strength, their armor/shield, and sheer toughness to win the day (the archetypal "tank fighter"). If you had an option to pick which high save you wanted, I could see that being viable, but not giving them both. Even those Fighters who train to take shots do try and deflect blows off their armour, they don't take the hits full to the head. So I think Reflex saves should be good for a Fighter. You've got it backwards. Dipping for a few levels into fighter does not a fighter make - that's a class with a few fighter levels. Taking many levels in fighter and dropping a few skill points here and there into cross-class skills, or a few levels in another class, is a fighter with extra skills. Obviously to be a Fighter the majority of your class levels should be Fighter. Despite the fact that it gets more feats than any two other classes put together? Sure, it doesn't have the versatility of, say, a cleric or wizard, but a fighter with a decent choice of feats and magic items can easily hold his own in a party. The current Fighter class is less powerful than the Wizard or Cleric classes and this power difference becomes more pronounced the higher in level you ascend. Secondly, the Fighter class is far more reliant on min/maxing because it has more feats, and incredibly reliant on what magic items are chosen. Both those factors unless exploited make the Fighter class even weaker than it already is. What kind of fighter do you play? And why are you running around alone? Fighters can take things on solo, but they come into their own when they have support - mages/clerics buffing them, rogues providing flanking, and bards inspiring them in battle. All the classes should function on their own. An epic fighter should be able to do supernatural things. I don't think wuxia movie characters were solely meant to be monks - in fact most of them are simply powerful fighters. Bonus feats enable the player to make the kind of fighter (s)he wants to play. No other class, except maybe the sorcerer or wizard, has this degree of customizability. Customizability often at the expense of power, which inexorably leads to being redundant when the wizard is blasting the enemy to pieces. High-level fighters multi-class or take Prcs because there are no decent high-level fighter feats (or weren't, before the PHBII came out). By L10-12, most fighters had taken all the feats they wanted or needed, and there wasn't any further reason to take more levels in the class, so they go for something more useful - PrCs that enable them to focus on killing stuff better (the Weaponmaster) or that complement their fighting style (the Duelist), or take levels in another class entirely. It seems to me you are saying the vanilla Fighter is second best, wheich makes it redundant. |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 06:41 PM | Hi Gemstone! :) Care to elaborate exactly why you choose to remove the fighters bonus feats? Well I thought I already had, but I guess its easy to miss these things. ;) Basically I had a number of reasons: 1) I wanted to make character creation a lot quicker. 2) I wanted to make the Fighter class less bland. 3) I wanted to make the Fighter as powerful as the Wizard and Cleric classes. I don't think I have fully succeeded yet, but I still have a few ideas to try out. ;) IMO, that's what makes the class worth playing. you don't have to make a damaging tank, but can aim for tripping, grappling, archery etc. You can still do all that with the system I propose. Tripping, Grappling, Stunning, Killing, Bonebreaking - you name it, all those sort of combat action feats that are not skill boosts or fighting style based are essentially free feats using the metamartial combat styles. I solved this by letting weapon focus apply to a weapon group, such as swords. As I saw it, a Fighter would initially get good with one weapon and then as they advanced in level that would branch out to certain types, then exotic types and finally to all weapons. |
| Upper_Krust05-31-07, 06:51 PM | Hey there Aracor! :) I hate this argument. D&D is not based around a solo adventurer. No but such things do invariably occur and they should be plausible. It can kinda work, but that's not what it's based around, and it's not what it's balanced for. So saying that a fighter can't stand alone against a critter of its CR is not only unimportant, it's like saying a wizard can't stand against an assassin with improved invisibility who gets the drop on him. The difference is that a Wizard or Cleric probably can function in standalone campaigns where Fighters are less likely to succeed in that regard. True? Probably. But not the point. I've seen many very successful fighters played, even straight fighters from 1 to nearly 20 before the campaign ended. They were able to deal amazing amounts of damage, and they were very successful party members. You also have to appreciate that this is the Epic forums. People who have played in epic games with Fighters and other classes can better see the disccrepancy of power between certain classes. So while the difference up to even 20th-level may not be that pronounced, the gap is far wider at 30th, 40th and so on. |
| bluemage5505-31-07, 07:12 PM | Personally, I think I like bluemage55's version the best. Thanks! :D bluemage55's version: :b:Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge: Why does the fighter not already have these? :b:Weapon Feats: As TL's Combat Training, a good way of adding power to the class without just dumping bonus feats on it. :b:Battle Cunning/Battle Skill/Battle Mastery: Awesome, a reason to have decent Int on a fighter! Actually, would they stack (Cunning and Mastery, AoO vs flanked)? The abilities do not stack. They are both insight bonuses. |
| Yodasatomicweed05-31-07, 07:14 PM | Why play a Fighter when you can play a Weapon Master or a Warblade who are better at fighting than a Fighter. Because you aren't dependent upon a sole weapon, and have a lot more options at your disposal. If a fighter loses his main weapon, he can just grab another and continue to beat the tar out of you, especially with your revised fighter class. A weaponmaster would be better while he had his chosen weapon, but without it would be almost defenseless. All the extra training that allowed the fighter to beat the junk out of you with anything he can pick up was instead focused on making the weaponmaster that much better with his weapon of choice. I suppose I'm viewing it as something similar to a specialized wizard. They are simply better at a given school because they have neglected other schools to focus on their chosen school. A weaponmaster has neglected training in other weapons to focus on his chosen weapon. So, I'm gonna side with Alias here. |
| Flymolo05-31-07, 07:35 PM | The thing that bothers me about this class is that the primarily damage-dealing benefits of it (the bonuses to attacks, damage, and critical hits) must focus around a weapon chosen at 2nd level. On the other hand, most Warriors throughout history were not so restricted–knights learned to fight with swords, lances, morningstars, and more; samurai fought using spears and bows in addition to swords; weapon-based martial arts generally focus on multiple weapons (such as the staff, the regular stick, and your body); Vikings fought using swords, axes, and spears; Spartans fought with swords, spears, and sometimes their shields. Some warriors were probably exceptionally skilled with one weapon, but that seems more of the exception than of the norm. I love the damage increase of your class, but maybe their should be some route (feats?) to extend their increased proficiency to weapons beside their favorite. |
| Taeldrin Laesrash05-31-07, 09:31 PM | The thing that bothers me about this class is that the primarily damage-dealing benefits of it (the bonuses to attacks, damage, and critical hits) must focus around a weapon chosen at 2nd level. On the other hand, most Warriors throughout history were not so restricted...Some warriors were probably exceptionally skilled with one weapon, but that seems more of the exception than of the norm. I love the damage increase of your class, but maybe their should be some route (feats?) to extend their increased proficiency to weapons beside their favorite. My reasoning for including Weapon Aptitude. Speaking of which... Taeldrin Laesrash's version: Weapon Aptitude: Either this as a class feature, or appling feats to weapon groups or PHB2 based retraining as general rules would be nice. Combat Training: A good way of adding power to the class without just dumping bonus feats on it, but as opposed to Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization? Penetrating Blow: This can over come DR/- as well as DR/alignment & material, which makes it fairly powerful (esp the DR/-). I would suggest making it similar to ki strike(magic) and leaving it there. Greater Weapon Aptitude: As Weapon Aptitude. I appreciate the overview. I will take into account what you've said about Penetraing Blow. What if I allowed it to ignore an additional material after a 6-level gap or so? But what do you mean about Weapon Aptitude? It is a class feature. Finally, Combat Training ensures that the Fighter remains the big damage dealer regardless, and the weapon focus feats are still the benefits for specializing. |
| askala306-01-07, 02:00 AM | I appreciate the overview. I will take into account what you've said about Penetraing Blow. What if I allowed it to ignore an additional material after a 6-level gap or so?Depends upon the power of the campaign I guess. I do not see much wrong with the thought of adding a single pre-selected material bypass after a slight wait (6 level as you suggest makes sense). But what do you mean about Weapon Aptitude? It is a class feature.I meant it was a good thing. Since there are no rules normally on retraining, giving this ability to the fighter makes sense. Wizards (and clerics) can memorize a completely different set of spells each day, why can't a fighter changes prefered weapons once and a while? Finally, Combat Training ensures that the Fighter remains the big damage dealer regardless, and the weapon focus feats are still the benefits for specializing.Okay, makes sense. |
| Rikandur_Azebol06-01-07, 03:05 AM | What kind of fighter do you play? And why are you running around alone? Fighters can take things on solo, but they come into their own when they have support - mages/clerics buffing them, rogues providing flanking, and bards inspiring them in battle. Och, so You say it's ok for fighter to be forced to have nanny ? :) Lone rogue can survive combat ... combat focused rogue can even make it out without luck. Rogue can entirely avoid combat, if he wants. Try to find one after he decides that caution is a better part of valor. And fighter ? He have to suck it up. And he should be able to do it, without having to be on last HPs after the 1vs1 battle. Without the necessity to rest for weeks, or having cleric tie him up with spells. I would give fighter some speed-recovery feats, or ability to use his armor/shield as damage taker instead of himself. More options than "I charge ... Power Attacking for +15 dmg." As I belive that things that would help fighter to recover damage after the battle wouldn't upset mechanics of gameplay for him much, and I think that this as feats would leave big chunks in fighter's attack power. Since fighter really have to use up his feats for attack-buff if he wants to be of any use. Dude.. it gets d10 hp. Unless you want to give it d12, he doesn't really need anymore. Why not ? Barbarians got more HP by default, and DR (pathetic one, but unbypassable wich is a plus). Raging barbarians have even more HP. What would offend You so much in fighter being able to take punishment as much as he deals it out ? U_K, Yep I can't acess Your site. At all. Maybe it's my computer ... :weep: And You do have a point with Wuxia movies. These fighters from it seem to have maxed Jump skill and Leap of Heavens feat. And people laugh at me when I give it to my rogues and fighters. "Why waste feat when You can fly by magic ?" :) Och ... could You check for me this guy ? He's designed as rogue who can beat fighters. :P BZIU Before You stands small fey in rich garments of an knight-courtier of noble station. At his belt You see an small dagger and no other weapons visible. Pomerange hair are arranged in a warrior's pony-tail, and create slightly disturbing contrast witch his ceremonial bearing and unpractically high-heeled sandals. When he makes one simple step forward, You are awed by gentleness and eye-catching quality of his movement. You notify small wings and that his eyes are of different colors. Violet and green. BZIU LONG (CR 100) 120 Rogue, 2 Monk (LA +28 ) Lawful Neutral Small Fey (Paragon) Init +60; Senses low-light vision, Listen +150, Spot +213 Languages Draconic, Celestial, Druidic, Sylvan, Common, Elvish ________________________________________ _____________________ AC 104, touch 99, flat-footed 54 (50 Dexterity, 5 Natural, 12 Insight, 13 Monk, 12 Luck, 1 Size) hp 5611 (122d20 +3171), fast healing 100; DR 150/- Immune ageing ? Resist Electricity 20 Sonic 32; SR 137 Weakness Honey. Fort +96, Ref +144, Will +96 (+48 to first Will and Fortitude save in a round) ________________________________________ _____________________ Speed 6710 ft., fly 6710 ft (Perfect) [90 ft, fly 210 ft (Perfect) without Supersonic] Melee +20 dagger +165/+160/+155 (51/crit 15-20 x4) or Melee unarmed strike +143/+138/+133 (4d8+30) Ranged +20 dagger +165/+165/+165 (51/crit 15-20 x4) Base Atk +67; Grp +98 Atk Options Sneak Attack +66d12 (max 792), Deft Strike, Improved Trip, Flick of a Wrist, Triple-Throw Weapon, Rapid Blitz, Dire Charge, Lingering Damage, Reflect Stuff, Defensive Throw. Special Actions Prone Fighting, Diehard, Quickdraw, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Diversion, Epic Dodge, Self-Concealment 50%. Combat Gear Wakizashi of the Thunder Goddess. ________________________________________ _____________________ Abilities Str 30, Dex 110, Con 40, Int 40, Wis 36, Cha 38 SQ Crippling Strike, Sneak Attack +66d12 (max 792), Defensive Roll, Improved Evasion, Trap Sense +40, Slippery Mind, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Flurry of Blows, Supersonic, Divine Sneak Attack, Superior Sneak Attack III, Perfect Sneak Attack, Sneaky Critical, Virtual Size Category, Ignore Immunity to Critical Hits 50%, Self-Concealment 50%. Feats (7 base): Improved Intiative, Lighting Reflexes, Quick Reconnoiter, Skill Focus: Hide and Move Silently, Staggering Strike, Hamstring, Arterial Strike, Flyby Attack, Improved Flyby Attack, Improved Feint, Mobility, Run, Combat Reflexes, Quickdraw, Spring Attack, Flick of a Wrist, Ascetic Rogue, Improved Natural Attack, Steadfast Determination, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus(Dagger), Improved Critical(Dagger), Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Deft Strike, Improved Diversion, Diehard, Endurance, Jack of All Trades, Defensive Throw, Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Critical Multiplier, Rapid Blitz, Bounding Assault, Improved Flight. Bonus Feats (3 Base): Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Attack, Deflect Arrows, Skill Focus: Spot. Epic Feats (33 base, 25 Rogue): Self Concealment 50%, Epic Reflexes, Lingering Damage, Dexterous Will, Dexterous Fortitude, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Epic Dodge, Epic Speed, Improved Combat Reflexes, Superior Intiative, Epic Skill Focus: Hide and Move Silently, Greater Critical(Dagger), Greater Critical Multiplier(Dagger), Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, Reflect Arrows, 6x Improved Sneak Attack. Skills Appraise +150, Balance +185, Bluff +149, Craft(Poetry) +50, Diplomacy +173, Disguise +149, Escape artist +245, Gather Information +149, Heal +124, Hide +202, Intimidiate +161, Jump +2807, Listen +150, Move silently +198, Open Lock +185, Perform(Dance) +149, Proffesion (Diplomat) +147, Search +152, Sense Motive +178, Sleigh of Hand +197, Spot +213, Survival +73, Tumble +184, Use Magic Device +48, Use Rope +184. Possessions Manuals of the Five Elements, Wakizashi of the Thunder Goddess, Tengu-King's Sandals, Tabard of the Queen's Champion, Blessing of Jade Dragon Emperor. ________________________________________ _____________________ STRATEGY AND TACTICS Will have to wait, sorry. Equipment: Wakizashi of the Thunder Goddess Weapon Artifact Returning, Everdancing, Unnering Accuracy, Triple-Throw and Distant Shot aurorum dagger +20. Ignores Immunities to Critical Hits 50%, +32 Sonic Resistance. Tengu-King's Sandals Artifact Sandals +30 Dex, Supersonic, +60 Escape Artist, +30 Sense Motives. Tabard of the Queen's Champion Artifact Tabard Periapt of Wound Closure, Soulfire, Superior Sneak Attack III, Perfect Sneak Attack, Sneaky Critical, Divine Toughness, +60 Spot, Divine Sneak Attack, 20 Electricity resistance. Blessing of Jade Dragon Emperor Artifact Tatoo +15 resistance bonus to saves, DR +150/-, +30 Fast Healing. BZIU LORE DC 30 He is Sidh Lord. DC 40 He is, in fact, famous Pixie of high standing. DC 50 Some say that he is famous fighter, singer and poem writer. Three times over won a duel with goddess of Thunders. Pixies tell that he is paragon of Pixiness, and thus don't hide behind invisibility. DC 60 He acts as intermediate between two Pantheons. Have high social standing in both. DC 75 He likes honey. And is fast as lighting. SOCIETY He dwells in Faerie Court and in the Jade Dragon Emperor's Heavenly Palace. He have summer castle where his wife and children live, too. Guys, and I agree that fighter should have ability similiar to Warblade's shifty-weapon specialisation. More flexibility.:) |
| Alias06-01-07, 11:59 AM | Battle Cunning/Battle Skill/Battle Mastery: Awesome, a reason to have decent Int on a fighter! Actually, would they stack (Cunning and Mastery, AoO vs flanked)? Umm... what about Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack? I see what you are trying to say but for me your approach just makes the Fighter redundant. To me the Fighter should be hands down the best "Fighter" - theres a clue in the name - it should do exactly what it says on the tin! And the word "prestige" in "prestige class" should clue you (the generic "you") in that "this class is more focused than a base class and is better some aspects". In this case, the Weaponmaster is better at kicking ass with a single weapon than a vanilla fighter. Pit an equal level Weaponmaster against a fighter, give them the same weapons, and I'll bet money the Weaponmaster will win. Why? Because he's spent more time training with that weapon. Give the Weaponmaster another weapon, and the probably in the fighter's favor. As for Warblade, I can't say - I have no familiarity with that class. Even those Fighters who train to take shots do try and deflect blows off their armour, they don't take the hits full to the head. So I think Reflex saves should be good for a Fighter. If there were a Medium save progression, I could see giving it to the fighter, but not full progression. Sorry. Customizability often at the expense of power, which inexorably leads to being redundant when the wizard is blasting the enemy to pieces. He's not giving anything up to get that flexibility - those are bonus feats. He can pick and choose among everything available to him (and there are a lot of feats out there) every other level. How is that sacrificing power? It seems to me you are saying the vanilla Fighter is second best, wheich makes it redundant. It was before the PHBII gave us a whole boatload of new feats that made high-level fighters more viable. You can still do all that with the system I propose. Tripping, Grappling, Stunning, Killing, Bonebreaking - you name it, all those sort of combat action feats that are not skill boosts or fighting style based are essentially free feats using the metamartial combat styles. So... how is this different than giving them bonus feats? Why not ? Barbarians got more HP by default, and DR (pathetic one, but unbypassable wich is a plus). Raging barbarians have even more HP. What would offend You so much in fighter being able to take punishment as much as he deals it out ? IMO, barbarian shouldn't be a class - it's nothing more than a lightly-armored fighter who can fly into a berserk rage. Make it a PrC, call it the Battlerager or Berserker, give it the same abilities the barbarian has, and people would go gaga over it. But that's beside the point, really - fighters can dish out quite a bit of damage on their own. Not nearly as much as a raging barbarian, granted, but even an epic mage would be hard-pressed to deal 400+ points of damage a round (that's an actual figure - 30th level barbarian/Legendary Dreadnought). |
| bluemage5506-01-07, 01:38 PM | Umm... what about Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack? Decent Int might imply something over 13. |
| askala306-01-07, 01:44 PM | Umm... what about Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack?:embarrass Heh, I meant decent as in 16+ (which really I should have been called good, or just written), but your point is well made. If there were a Medium save progression, I could see giving it to the fighter, but not full progression. Sorry.I agree completely, which is why I had suggested the "grace" ability from the swashbuckler (+1 Ref per 6 levels) to emulate a medium save progression. IMO, barbarian shouldn't be a class - it's nothing more than a lightly-armored fighter who can fly into a berserk rage. Make it a PrC, call it the Battlerager or Berserker, give it the same abilities the barbarian has, and people would go gaga over it.I've thought about this before, though my group had resistance to the idea. Although maybe it was because I said that no core classes should have an alignment restriction, thus blocking Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, and Paladin… |
| Upper_Krust06-01-07, 02:45 PM | Hey all! :) Okay, based on the feedback and some new playtesting on my part I have revised my revised Epic Fighter. http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon6a.htm Changes include: - New Skills - New Skill Points - d12 Hit Dice - Changes to how Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation work (allowing you to choose different weapons) - Weapon Deflect: +1 AC bonus per 4 levels (starting at 4th) - Bonus Feat: +1 bonus feat per 4 levels (starting at 3rd) - I also included a 40th-level sample Fighter Now the first thing you might notice is that it looks a great deal more powerful than the current fighter. However, some recent discoveries (by me) suggest that a Fighter needs the equivalent of 25 (or so) feats over 20 levels to match the Wizard and Cleric classes. While I was trying to eliminate Bonus Feats altogether, I couldn't come up with any generic fighting aspect for the last five feats (up to 20th-level). So in the end I had no choice but to give them 1 bonus feat per four levels. Any comments on the revisions? |
| Upper_Krust06-01-07, 05:19 PM | Hi Rikandur matey! :) U_K, Yep I can't acess Your site. At all. Maybe it's my computer ... :weep: It must be your computer - you are the first person I've heard of that cannot access the website. :eek: And You do have a point with Wuxia movies. These fighters from it seem to have maxed Jump skill and Leap of Heavens feat. And people laugh at me when I give it to my rogues and fighters. "Why waste feat when You can fly by magic ?" :) :D Och ... could You check for me this guy ? He's designed as rogue who can beat fighters. :P Sure thing. 1) This is a nitpick, but I don't like characters that have Damage Reduction higher than their strength. So although within the letter of the law, a DR 150/- Fey with 30 strength just seems a bit off to me. ...I have the same problem with Fast Healing/Regen and Constitution. Not sure about it defeating a Fighter of the same power in a straight fight though. I'd always be looking for the Underhanded cosmic ability to allow sneak attack damage with every hit at that sort of power level. ;) Cool character though! :cool: |
| askala306-03-07, 02:31 PM | Hey all! :) Okay, based on the feedback and some new playtesting on my part I have revised my revised Epic Fighter. … - I also included a 40th-level sample Fighter … Any comments on the revisions?Your new setup has a lot of abilities increasing on levels divisible by four (Weapon focus, weapon specialization, and weapon deflect), Making levels 12, 24, and 36 busy levels (all saves plus three class abilities improving). Try starting weapon focus at 3rd level and weapon deflect at 5th. (This will also remove the levels of "nothing" at 9 and every 4 after). |
| Upper_Krust06-03-07, 03:38 PM | Hey askala3! :) Your new setup has a lot of abilities increasing on levels divisible by four (Weapon focus, weapon specialization, and weapon deflect), Making levels 12, 24, and 36 busy levels (all saves plus three class abilities improving). Try starting weapon focus at 3rd level and weapon deflect at 5th. (This will also remove the levels of "nothing" at 9 and every 4 after). Thanks for your help, I will make the changes, although they won't be uploaded until tomorrow night when I add the Revised Barbarian Class. |
| Flamewarrior06-04-07, 02:35 PM | You live (last time I saw you was in a Waking lands post, I think)! Epic progressions: I have played games with free-scaling BAB/saves indeed, and can see the appeal of forever-extensible formulas, but there's the problem mentioned in the (argh) ELH: drop an effect upon 2 party members that has any chance of affecting the most well-adapted to it, and the other will drop dead. Also, your iterative attack banning is a straight nerf to every physical combatant (since their attacks are all made at the lowest bonus used in RAW), and it wasn't they who needed any. That said, first thing that jumps to mind: there's dead levels. Your friend Kolja already nailed this - you should start by following the following progressions: weapon specialization +(lv.+1)/2, (lv.+2)/4 bonus feats, weapon focus +(lv.+1)/4, weapon deflect +lv./4; that way, all the dead levels go the dinosaur's way - after, you put all other class features in even-numbered levels to smooth things out. Also, I'm not sure whether this fighter is good enough - for one, I'm not sure about whether it's really easy for a divine caster to surpass all these bonuses, and, worse, there isn't any active ability to provide new tactics. Sorry if this looks too negative, but I do say this because the idea of aiming a class redesign towards simplicity really interests me - let's see that that's done right. |
| Upper_Krust06-04-07, 04:36 PM | Howdy Flamewarrior! :) You live You could say I'm immortal. ;) (last time I saw you was in a Waking lands post, I think)! I spoke to Kolja last week, but to my shame I don't visit his website often enough. Epic progressions: I have played games with free-scaling BAB/saves indeed, and can see the appeal of forever-extensible formulas, but there's the problem mentioned in the (argh) ELH: drop an effect upon 2 party members that has any chance of affecting the most well-adapted to it, and the other will drop dead. There is no problem with continuing BAB. There could be a problem with continuing Saves, however, the difference between good and bad saving throws doesn't become more than 20 until after level 100. I'm also of the opinion that epic characters shouldn't be molly-coddled, if a Fighter is worried about their Will save they should invest in ways to shore up that defense, but it shouldn't be given to them for free. Also, your iterative attack banning is a straight nerf to every physical combatant (since their attacks are all made at the lowest bonus used in RAW), and it wasn't they who needed any. Even using my ideas on how to handle iterative attacks, I proved (over in my ENWorld Forum) that statistically you were still easily better off at every level. Also I really like the tactical aspect of choosing how many attacks to make that these new rules bring. That said, first thing that jumps to mind: there's dead levels. Your friend Kolja already nailed this - you should start by following the following progressions: weapon specialization +(lv.+1)/2, (lv.+2)/4 bonus feats, weapon focus +(lv.+1)/4, weapon deflect +lv./4; that way, all the dead levels go the dinosaur's way - after, you put all other class features in even-numbered levels to smooth things out. Agreed. I'll be getting rid of the revised Fighter's dead levels tonight when I update the revised Barbarian. Also, I'm not sure whether this fighter is good enough - for one, I'm not sure about whether it's really easy for a divine caster to surpass all these bonuses, Okay, I am confused, can you give me an example. :confused: and, worse, there isn't any active ability to provide new tactics. Not quite sure what you mean here, can you be more specific? Sorry if this looks too negative, but I do say this because the idea of aiming a class redesign towards simplicity really interests me - let's see that that's done right. I enjoy honest feedback, so no apology necessary mate. :) |
| Flamewarrior06-04-07, 08:43 PM | Hello, again, Krusty mate (sorry, too good of a joke)! Immortal indeed; also, as Kolja says, you're an epic man, and he's fond of the days of youth, so to say - if you keep in touch, that's good enough. About save investments, the problem with standard-assumption D&D is that there's little for actually bridging gaps like this - most of the time, the one with the highest save got a save-booster too, especially with many boosting all saves equally. Your attack amount rule: I'm really interested (I agree having a choice like this is great); so, gimme a link, please. Example asked: as soon as I take a good, hard look at a buff list, I'll at least tell you "I was wrong", if that comes to be the case. Tactics issue: every full spellcaster/manifester changes tactics radically every couple levels (typical example: wizard - you fire a crossbow a good deal of the time -> you fireball people and fly if strictly needed -> you fly all the time and use battlefield control almost exclusively -> whatever you do, you rule; OK, that last one shouldn't happen). In general, the gimped classes at high levels are the ones that have less of this transformation (among other reasons, because monsters in general follow it too), and this fighter has none. |
| Upper_Krust06-05-07, 04:54 PM | Hey Flamewarrior! :) Hello, again, Krusty mate (sorry, too good of a joke)! :D Immortal indeed; ;) also, as Kolja says, you're an epic man, and he's fond of the days of youth, so to say - if you keep in touch, that's good enough. True. About save investments, the problem with standard-assumption D&D is that there's little for actually bridging gaps like this - most of the time, the one with the highest save got a save-booster too, especially with many boosting all saves equally. Well there would be Iron Will, Epic Will (thats +6 so far), cloaks of resistance and sor forth. Your attack amount rule: I'm really interested (I agree having a choice like this is great); so, gimme a link, please. Well its basically tied up in something called Metamatrial Maneouvres which I detail in the Immortals Handbook: Ascension. However, regarding attacks, I suggest (as an optional rule) that instead of iterative attacks you drop BAB by 5 for each additional attack you make. So if you have BAB +20 thats only if you make one attack that round. If you make three attacks (-10 penalty for two extra attacks) so it would be +10/+10/+10. Example asked: as soon as I take a good, hard look at a buff list, I'll at least tell you "I was wrong", if that comes to be the case. Okay. Tactics issue: every full spellcaster/manifester changes tactics radically every couple levels (typical example: wizard - you fire a crossbow a good deal of the time -> you fireball people and fly if strictly needed -> you fly all the time and use battlefield control almost exclusively -> whatever you do, you rule; OK, that last one shouldn't happen). In general, the gimped classes at high levels are the ones that have less of this transformation (among other reasons, because monsters in general follow it too), and this fighter has none. Ah yes I see, very interesting. I think a lot of this wouldn't necessarily come from martial classes, but rather from magic items. If you were going to play a non/low magic-item game (like Iron Heroes) then I agree it might be a problem. |
| Flamewarrior06-05-07, 08:46 PM | Hi, Upper Krust! Will investment: I think cloaks of resistance wouldn't count, since chances are everybody has one for whatever their weak saves happen to be, and creature CRs (at least when assigned correctly) kinda expect this. Anything else beyond the normal (like the feats) to bridge the remainder of the difference? Attack amount rule: the rule I get; I'd like to see your proof at EN World. About the bonus issue, comparing two greatsword-wielding characters (nothing says a cleric can't hold it with just one hand when casting) - what you need is (being a cleric) to have active: divine favor, bear's endurance, divine power, righteous might, and cloak of chaos/(un)holy aura/shield of law. With Divine Metamagic (Persistent/Quicken Spell), you can figure out how to waste time casting all of these rather easily (and yes, it's possible to do so 4 times per day, and you still have all your 7th-level spells). Then the cleric is: 2 points ahead in attack, 1 in damage, with 20 more hp, and equal AC. If you persist them, you'll probably not even have to do so 4 times/day, though you may need Extra Turning. The feats: there's a spell called called heroics in the Spell Compendium which gives fighter bonus feats; get the Magic domain and a wand of heroics. Lastly, I compare them at level 20 since, in official material, the imbalance grows proportionally to character level, and I don't touch the sole set of epic rules I do have (ELH); by the way, since I don't know how your epic spellcasting is, I don't have much of a balance metric. Ah yes I see, very interesting. I think a lot of this wouldn't necessarily come from martial classes, but rather from magic items. If you were going to play a non/low magic-item game (like Iron Heroes) then I agree it might be a problem.Well, I tend to play low-magic D&D (with some substantial spellcaster nerfs, such as the one in my signature), so that might be specific for these nonstandard games; but I doubt whether someone can have decent tactical versatility and level-appropriate numbers at the same - look, for example, at magic weapon prices. So, I think only a noncaster's wealth is too little to shore the versatility gap. Also, Ascension is an e-book, right? And: do your page's section names have a connection to the contents? It'd be easier for me to remember which is which. :) Reading the barbarian now ... |
| Upper_Krust06-06-07, 09:11 AM | Hi, Upper Krust! Howdy Flamewarrior! :) Will investment: I think cloaks of resistance wouldn't count, since chances are everybody has one for whatever their weak saves happen to be, and creature CRs (at least when assigned correctly) kinda expect this. Anything else beyond the normal (like the feats) to bridge the remainder of the difference? Why should characters necessarily be able to bridge that gap? Should fighters have a higher will save than wizards for instance? Attack amount rule: the rule I get; I'd like to see your proof at EN World. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=197088 Post #23 About the bonus issue, comparing two greatsword-wielding characters (nothing says a cleric can't hold it with just one hand when casting) - what you need is (being a cleric) to have active: divine favor, bear's endurance, divine power, righteous might, and cloak of chaos/(un)holy aura/shield of law. With Divine Metamagic (Persistent/Quicken Spell), you can figure out how to waste time casting all of these rather easily (and yes, it's possible to do so 4 times per day, and you still have all your 7th-level spells). Then the cleric is: 2 points ahead in attack, 1 in damage, with 20 more hp, and equal AC. If you persist them, you'll probably not even have to do so 4 times/day, though you may need Extra Turning. The feats: there's a spell called called heroics in the Spell Compendium which gives fighter bonus feats; get the Magic domain and a wand of heroics. Lastly, I compare them at level 20 since, in official material, the imbalance grows proportionally to character level, and I don't touch the sole set of epic rules I do have (ELH); by the way, since I don't know how your epic spellcasting is, I don't have much of a balance metric. Well I compared my revised Fighter at 20th to your buffed Cleric and I came out with better Hit Points (by 22), better attack bonus (by +2), better AC (by +5) and worse damage (by 1) - however that was with my Fighter using Bastard Sword + Shield and your cleric using Heavy Mace + Shield, rather than greatswords...also it didn't take into account my Fighter's Improved Critical and Improved Critical Multiplier feats. With Greatswords your Cleric was doing 2d8+23 (avg. 32), whereas my revised Fighter was doing 2d6+27 (avg. 34). Factoring in Imp. Crit & Imp. Crit. Multiplier and it looks like the clean sweep for my Fighter over your buffed Cleric. :) Well, I tend to play low-magic D&D (with some substantial spellcaster nerfs, such as the one in my signature), so that might be specific for these nonstandard games; but I doubt whether someone can have decent tactical versatility and level-appropriate numbers at the same - look, for example, at magic weapon prices. So, I think only a noncaster's wealth is too little to shore the versatility gap. Difficult to say, there are so many variables regarding magic items. Also, Ascension is an e-book, right? Initially, yes. It will be released by Mongoose later this year (or thats the plan). And: do your page's section names have a connection to the contents? It'd be easier for me to remember which is which. :) Do you mean on the website? Just click on offerings... http://www.immortalshandbook.com/offerings.htm although I do need to update the sidebars on those pages. Reading the barbarian now ... Its about 95% complete, otherwise I would have started a new thread here about it. |
| Taeldrin Laesrash06-06-07, 09:31 AM | I like it. Cetainly gives the class more to do. Probably the best part is that all of these things are easily scalable. However, Terrible Roar is a bit much for me. I mean, you scream, and a mortal can't move a muscle for days? |
| Flamewarrior06-06-07, 01:58 PM | Why should characters necessarily be able to bridge that gap?Ah, sorry; not bridge by any means; but the game probably does break if any d20 roll closes on a 50% variance, so keeping people within a 10-point band is important (and difficult with all the possible customization, not to mention the damn +2 to saves at each class' start). Link: I see - thought you pulled some crazy math about the same character under each ruleset (which would be impossible at face value, but I don't tend to doubt much as far as d20 rules go); comparing also the different class makeups, it's easy to picture. Well I compared my revised Fighter at 20th to your buffed Cleric and I came out with better Hit Points (by 22), better attack bonus (by +2), better AC (by +5) and worse damage (by 1) - however that was with my Fighter using Bastard Sword + Shield and your cleric using Heavy Mace + Shield, rather than greatswords...also it didn't take into account my Fighter's Improved Critical and Improved Critical Multiplier feats. With Greatswords your Cleric was doing 2d8+23 (avg. 32), whereas my revised Fighter was doing 2d6+27 (avg. 34). Factoring in Imp. Crit & Imp. Crit. Multiplier and it looks like the clean sweep for my Fighter over your buffed Cleric. :)First, if you play with full wealth, why not to use a greatsword? Have an animated shield if it's important (personally, I hate the "floaties", but if it's RAW, there they are). Anyway, I'd re-check my numbers, but just tell me: which ability score method and values you used? That should account for the discrepancies. Also, do note that these differences are somewhat small, and I don't think any equipment set can bring a fighter (any version) any close to a cleric; hence why I worry about a class being mostly numbers. Though I actually should've conceded one thing: I don't know how your cleric will look like - maybe they're in for a good nerfhammering? Also, if those metamaneuvers are mostly available for without, say, a specific class (and benefit more the highest BABs), they can help (a lot). Hey, where are the classes now? |
| Upper_Krust06-06-07, 04:14 PM | Hey there Taeldrin! :) I like it. Cetainly gives the class more to do. Glad you like it! :) Probably the best part is that all of these things are easily scalable. That was part of the plan from the start although I still do try to include some new material at regular intervals, so that classes don't just become more of the same. However, Terrible Roar is a bit much for me. I mean, you scream, and a mortal can't move a muscle for days? Well it is the scream of a 35th-level Barbarian. Its all basically an extension of fear but with a supernatural twist, so at 25th you are stunned by fear, and at 35th you are weakened by it. At 45th you could have something like petrification. |
| Upper_Krust06-06-07, 07:50 PM | Hi Flamewarrior! :) Ah, sorry; not bridge by any means; but the game probably does break if any d20 roll closes on a 50% variance, so keeping people within a 10-point band is important (and difficult with all the possible customization, not to mention the damn +2 to saves at each class' start). Well the 10 point band doesn't naturally happen until 50th-level. Link: I see - thought you pulled some crazy math about the same character under each ruleset (which would be impossible at face value, but I don't tend to doubt much as far as d20 rules go); comparing also the different class makeups, it's easy to picture. :) First, if you play with full wealth, why not to use a greatsword? Have an animated shield if it's important (personally, I hate the "floaties", but if it's RAW, there they are). I think the animated power of a shield is too cheap it. Anyway, I'd re-check my numbers, but just tell me: which ability score method and values you used? I used the ability scores for their respective classes in the NPC lists of the DMG. That should account for the discrepancies. Fighters will use their bonus ability scores for strength, clerics won't. Also, do note that these differences are somewhat small, Not when you factor in Improved Critical and Improved Critical Multiplier. I also assumed the Cleric had the same weapon, armour and shield in terms of enhancement bonus which may not be the case in all likelihood. and I don't think any equipment set can bring a fighter (any version) any close to a cleric; hence why I worry about a class being mostly numbers. My version is already a better fighter than the buffed cleric. Statistically its on a par over the course of the 40 levels, which shows how far back the core Fighter is. Though I actually should've conceded one thing: I don't know how your cleric will look like - maybe they're in for a good nerfhammering? I'd drop them to d6, that would be the only major change outside new epic magic rules. Also, if those metamaneuvers are mostly available for without, say, a specific class (and benefit more the highest BABs), they can help (a lot). Metamartial maneouvres are available to all classes but as they are based on BAB Fighter types will get the most out of them. Hey, where are the classes now? Which classes? :confused: |
| Flamewarrior06-06-07, 08:28 PM | Hi, Krust! Almost all right, but on the emulation issue, what I meant is that, despite me not having a good number set (not good at optimization, so to say), I have the impression that it's much easier for the cleric to become a fighter (don't forget the wand of keen edge, I did) than for the fighter to become a cleric (that is, to turn into a spellcaster); I'd say there's a certain amount of money where the cleric becomes a "gestalt", where the fighter absolutely can't do the same. Also, the cleric's access to spell enhancement bonuses may make it easier for it to have the cash to spend on becoming even more versatile. The fact that the metamaneuvers benefit proportionally to BAB does give a lot of credit to what you say, though part of the issue is exactly their unavailability (I mean, here). And that "Where are the classes?" was about the "sermon" link in your site's top doesn't list the revised classes anymore, but I did find them already under the news. What I can say about the barbarian is that it's thematically interesting, seems a bit stronger than the fighter, and ... well, about the ancestors: is one supposed to make barbarian characters of half level, or I missed something? Also, general questions. What are the "NBs", and, since the nonepic spellcasting stays the same, may I ask why do you want the sets of classes on vastly different levels of complexity? See you later. |
| Upper_Krust06-07-07, 03:20 PM | Hi, Krust! Hey there Flamewarrior! :) Almost all right, but on the emulation issue, what I meant is that, despite me not having a good number set (not good at optimization, so to say), I have the impression that it's much easier for the cleric to become a fighter (don't forget the wand of keen edge, I did) than for the fighter to become a cleric (that is, to turn into a spellcaster); I'd say there's a certain amount of money where the cleric becomes a "gestalt", where the fighter absolutely can't do the same. Also, the cleric's access to spell enhancement bonuses may make it easier for it to have the cash to spend on becoming even more versatile. Well metamartial maneouvres give Fighter types a lot more versatility. But I don't have a problem with Clerics or Wiazards being more versatile than the Fighter as long as the Fighter is still better than them at fighting - which clearly the core Fighter or Barbarian are not. The fact that the metamaneuvers benefit proportionally to BAB does give a lot of credit to what you say, though part of the issue is exactly their unavailability (I mean, here). Well nothing I can do about that, I have to save some stuff for the books..."Upper_Krust's gotta eat" might be the apropos comment du jour. :P And that "Where are the classes?" was about the "sermon" link in your site's top doesn't list the revised classes anymore, but I did find them already under the news. Yes, apologies for that I will update the website tonight and rectify those mistakes. What I can say about the barbarian is that it's thematically interesting, seems a bit stronger than the fighter, Overall should be a fraction under the Fighter at this point since I still have two Barbarian powers to add. I can see this Barbarian dishing out a lot of damage, but at the same time its Armor Class will be bad. and ... well, about the ancestors: is one supposed to make barbarian characters of half level, or I missed something? I could ask the same question for the Horn of Valhalla. My gut instinct is to use those Barbarians in the NPC list, which, coupled with the Epic Level Handbook keeps your Barbarian knee deep in ancestors until after 61st-level. Also, general questions. What are the "NBs", NB's are shorthand for 'Nota Bene' - literally "Note Well", although "take heed" would be a more contemporary translation. and, since the nonepic spellcasting stays the same... http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm ...may I ask why do you want the sets of classes on vastly different levels of complexity? I don't think they will be on different sets of complexity. Remember that the magic-using classes still have to choose spells and so forth. See you later. All the best. :) |
| Flamewarrior06-13-07, 07:14 PM | Yay, I can post now (I was getting "too short" messages for every post attempt)! Krust: the most important comment I'd make was about the NPC barbarians, but you already clarified that there. But about the spell selection issue, that was exactly what I meant: the complexity gap widened when you flattened the fighter's abilities (of course, the barbarian was flat already). |
| Upper_Krust06-13-07, 07:35 PM | Hey Flamewarrior! :) Thanks for the post. In case you were interested, I just added the Revised Monk Class although there are a few things about it I still need to fix (including two abilities after 35th-level) but I'll get to them in due course. http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon6c.htm |
| Gemstone06-19-07, 01:36 PM | Hey Flamewarrior! :) Thanks for the post. In case you were interested, I just added the Revised Monk Class although there are a few things about it I still need to fix (including two abilities after 35th-level) but I'll get to them in due course. http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon6c.htm The Ki blast thing is very very good. Actually almost too good. Does a full round action allow you to take a 5 ft. step? because if so, I would almost say Overpowered. IMO at least |
| Upper_Krust06-19-07, 02:05 PM | Howdy Gemstone! :) The Ki blast thing is very very good. Actually almost too good. Does a full round action allow you to take a 5 ft. step? because if so, I would almost say Overpowered. IMO at least I should probably add a limiter on the number of times per day you can use this. But I have not come up with a satisfactory mechanic for that yet. Perhaps it drops by 1d6 damage each subsequent time you use it that day... |
| Gemstone06-19-07, 02:56 PM | Howdy Gemstone! :) I should probably add a limiter on the number of times per day you can use this. But I have not come up with a satisfactory mechanic for that yet. Perhaps it drops by 1d6 damage each subsequent time you use it that day... hmm... sounds needlessly complicated to me. I would probably make it so that they gain Monk level x4 d6 to use each day, which they can spread out as they wish, up to a maximum of their current monk level each use. then, you can create a feat which gives them another x1 or x2 d6 :) |
| Taeldrin Laesrash06-20-07, 12:33 AM | ...Or you could make it like a breath weapon. You need time to gather yourself, and thus must wait 1d6 rounds between uses of your Ki Blast, or something like that. Also, you're forgetting the rather important ability to treat a monk's fists as magic weapons. Yeah, I know, there's the enhancement bonus and the abilities and all, but without the explicit statement, you can't penetrate a lot of DR. |
| Upper_Krust06-20-07, 11:35 AM | Hey Gemstone mate! :) hmm... sounds needlessly complicated to me. I would probably make it so that they gain Monk level x4 d6 to use each day, which they can spread out as they wish, up to a maximum of their current monk level each use. then, you can create a feat which gives them another x1 or x2 d6 :) I don't know if I like the sound of putting all the eggs in one basket with regards the damage potential, because you can see its only going to be used for one big mammoth blast and then forgotten until the following day. What if, and this is partly based a tad on Taeldrin's idea, each time you use it, you get back one dice per round of damage, but, you can also meditate (full round action) to regain a number of dice equal to your Wisdom Modifier. How does that sound? |
| Upper_Krust06-20-07, 11:39 AM | Hey there Taeldrin! :) ...Or you could make it like a breath weapon. You need time to gather yourself, and thus must wait 1d6 rounds between uses of your Ki Blast, or something like that. It inspired me to think up the idea in my previous post - what did you think of that? Also, you're forgetting the rather important ability to treat a monk's fists as magic weapons. Yeah, I know, there's the enhancement bonus and the abilities and all, but without the explicit statement, you can't penetrate a lot of DR. Yes, I was in two minds since they technically gain the enhancement bonus, but it won't hurt to add it back in. :) |
| Taeldrin Laesrash06-20-07, 12:16 PM | It inspired me to think up the idea in my previous post - what did you think of that? Hmm. Seemed a bit complex at first, but I think I like it. Levels 1-20, it's pretty much right on par with what a Warlock or Swordsage, or even a good Fighter of the same level could do. Higher levels, though, it becomes pretty much a superior form of attack to most other options. By 40th level, you're dealing 20d6 average damage per round (Ki Blast, then meditate, rinse and repeat), and only a 40th-level Warlock will be able to keep up with you all day. |
| Gemstone06-20-07, 05:27 PM | Hey Gemstone mate! :) I don't know if I like the sound of putting all the eggs in one basket with regards the damage potential, because you can see its only going to be used for one big mammoth blast and then forgotten until the following day. What if, and this is partly based a tad on Taeldrin's idea, each time you use it, you get back one dice per round of damage, but, you can also meditate (full round action) to regain a number of dice equal to your Wisdom Modifier. How does that sound? IMO, I believe the 1d6 rounds of wait is more easily dealt with. there are already enough variables to think about each round, without having to add a counter. much easier to add a "time to" as I call it |