Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 02-11-08, 03:25 AM	This isn't an epic question, strictly-speaking, although it does deal with an epic-level creature (CR 22) in this specific case, and I find a high concentration of thoughtful posters here in the epic boards. The party in my campaign defeated a pirate galley that attacked the fishing boat on which they were traveling. They took the galley and with the help of the boat captain and some freed oarsman who knew how to sail they are traveling to a port where the government is offering a big reward for the pirates the party killed. On the way to the port the pirate galley encountered a fully-advanced dragon turtle which has been extorting tribute from passing trips. The dragon turtle has a +42 Appraise bonus, a +40 Sense Motive bonus, and a permanent arcane sight spell on it, so that it's pretty good at assessing how much to charge each ship that passes. It basically extorts a large initial tribute for the first voyage and then about 10% of that for each subsequent voyage, not wanting to stop trade through its route. It will not sink any ship that pays the tribute and it has no real desire to kill the pitiful little humanoids on the ships, it just wants treasure. When it does capsize a ship that refuses to pay, it will sometimes help a survivor to a piece of flotsam so that the survivor has a chance to live, which also incidentally allows the survivor to tell others that the dragon turtle isn't kidding about capsizing anyone who won't pay. The PCs' pirate galley was a few hours out from their destination when the ship's mage detected a ship about ten miles west disappear off of her detect ships spell without sailing out of range. The captain turned the galley toward the last location of the other ship, but the PCs sent out one of their half-celestials and a dragon cohort to investigate. The two found one survivor who had been pushed to some flotsam by the dragon turtle (who proceeded to rant hysterically about the sea monster that demanded tribute, capsized his ship after the captain refused to pay, and then pushed him with its nose to the flotsam so he wouldn't drown, it's horrible breath nearly overpowering him). So the ship got ready to fight the dragon turtle if it appeared at their galley, which it did about an hour later. The dragon turtle demanded 100,000 gold pieces or 10,000 platinum pieces. Instead of fighting though, the leader of the PCs decided to offer the dragon turtle a bunch of small-sized treasure that the party got from fighting high-level kobolds some time back. He figured that the dragon turtle wouldn't really care if the weapons and armor were small since even if they were medium or whatever they'd be of no direct use to the dragon turtle anyway. He was right too; the dragon turtle was happy to accept 109,000 worth of magic items, small or not, instead of 100,000 gold pieces. Sine the objective of the PCs currently is to get to the port where they can free all the slaves and get their reward for killing the dread pirates (and sell the pirate galley to someone legitimate) I awarded the party full experience for "defeating" a CR 22 challenge. While it would have been fun to run that fight, inside the game it made perfect sense for the party to pay off the dragon turtle and avoid having the galley damaged or sunk, and the crew drowned instead of freed. Afterwards though the party's leader indicated that he wants to find the dragon turtle again and kill it. I'm not sure when they'll actually try to do it, as their current task is really a side quest from the main mission of rescuing the leader's mother from the epic minotaur abomination, itself a side quest from the main storyline of the campaign. If they do eventually go back and find the dragon turtle, however, I'm wondering whether, assuming they kill it or drive it away, it's right to give them experience for defeating it a second time. My initial inclination was not to give them any additional experience. On the flip side though, fighting it would be a difficult task, different from the task of bribing it for which they got the experience the first time. So maybe it's not too much to give them experience for it again if they drive it off or kill it. What do you think? Thanks. :)
BillTheManiac 02-11-08, 07:43 AM	The Clockwork Hound puts it at 50% for each additonal fight.
WombleHunter 02-11-08, 07:59 AM	What does that mean? Reduce the XP award by a compound 50% each time (so the third time you fight something you get 25% of the full normal amount, then 12.5% and so on)? Or just a flat 50% reduction after the first fight? And who or what is the Clockwork Hound? Another way of looking at it is this: you awarded XP for a CR22 creature. If the party had on that occasion actually killed the creature, then they would have gotten the same award. Now let's say that dragon turtle had an identical mate, which the PCs duly hunt down and destroy - mechanically, this is identical to what you are describing, but it seems like a much clearer-cut case for the same XP award twice.
Starmage21 02-11-08, 09:13 AM	This isn't an epic question, strictly-speaking, although it does deal with an epic-level creature (CR 22) in this specific case, and I find a high concentration of thoughtful posters here in the epic boards. The party in my campaign defeated a pirate galley that attacked the fishing boat on which they were traveling. They took the galley and with the help of the boat captain and some freed oarsman who knew how to sail they are traveling to a port where the government is offering a big reward for the pirates the party killed. On the way to the port the pirate galley encountered a fully-advanced dragon turtle which has been extorting tribute from passing trips. The dragon turtle has a +42 Appraise bonus, a +40 Sense Motive bonus, and a permanent arcane sight spell on it, so that it's pretty good at assessing how much to charge each ship that passes. It basically extorts a large initial tribute for the first voyage and then about 10% of that for each subsequent voyage, not wanting to stop trade through its route. It will not sink any ship that pays the tribute and it has no real desire to kill the pitiful little humanoids on the ships, it just wants treasure. When it does capsize a ship that refuses to pay, it will sometimes help a survivor to a piece of flotsam so that the survivor has a chance to live, which also incidentally allows the survivor to tell others that the dragon turtle isn't kidding about capsizing anyone who won't pay. The PCs' pirate galley was a few hours out from their destination when the ship's mage detected a ship about ten miles west disappear off of her detect ships spell without sailing out of range. The captain turned the galley toward the last location of the other ship, but the PCs sent out one of their half-celestials and a dragon cohort to investigate. The two found one survivor who had been pushed to some flotsam by the dragon turtle (who proceeded to rant hysterically about the sea monster that demanded tribute, capsized his ship after the captain refused to pay, and then pushed him with its nose to the flotsam so he wouldn't drown, it's horrible breath nearly overpowering him). So the ship got ready to fight the dragon turtle if it appeared at their galley, which it did about an hour later. The dragon turtle demanded 100,000 gold pieces or 10,000 platinum pieces. Instead of fighting though, the leader of the PCs decided to offer the dragon turtle a bunch of small-sized treasure that the party got from fighting high-level kobolds some time back. He figured that the dragon turtle wouldn't really care if the weapons and armor were small since even if they were medium or whatever they'd be of no direct use to the dragon turtle anyway. He was right too; the dragon turtle was happy to accept 109,000 worth of magic items, small or not, instead of 100,000 gold pieces. Sine the objective of the PCs currently is to get to the port where they can free all the slaves and get their reward for killing the dread pirates (and sell the pirate galley to someone legitimate) I awarded the party full experience for "defeating" a CR 22 challenge. While it would have been fun to run that fight, inside the game it made perfect sense for the party to pay off the dragon turtle and avoid having the galley damaged or sunk, and the crew drowned instead of freed. Afterwards though the party's leader indicated that he wants to find the dragon turtle again and kill it. I'm not sure when they'll actually try to do it, as their current task is really a side quest from the main mission of rescuing the leader's mother from the epic minotaur abomination, itself a side quest from the main storyline of the campaign. If they do eventually go back and find the dragon turtle, however, I'm wondering whether, assuming they kill it or drive it away, it's right to give them experience for defeating it a second time. My initial inclination was not to give them any additional experience. On the flip side though, fighting it would be a difficult task, different from the task of bribing it for which they got the experience the first time. So maybe it's not too much to give them experience for it again if they drive it off or kill it. What do you think? Thanks. :) You gave them experience points for "defeating" a CR22 role-playing encounter. They intelligently paid the turtle off rather than kill it. Now that they want to go back and kill it, its still a threat to the PCs, so they should still gain experience points for it. Its like defeating the BBEG who runs away, and then challenges the party again at a later time and not awarding experience points for it.
Tequila_Sunrise 02-11-08, 08:46 PM	Hm well I would have been inclined to give them a lesser rp award for bribing the turtle rather than full xp as if they had defeated it in battle. Then when they go back and defeat it, I'd give them normal full xp. But since you've already given them full xp...that's tough. I'd say give them full xp for defeating it in battle even though it feels like too much reward for not enough effort, but it'll feel like a gimp to them otherwise. TS
Thorsbjorn 02-13-08, 12:52 AM	Hm well I would have been inclined to give them a lesser rp award for bribing the turtle rather than full xp as if they had defeated it in battle. Then when they go back and defeat it, I'd give them normal full xp. But since you've already given them full xp...that's tough. I'd say give them full xp for defeating it in battle even though it feels like too much reward for not enough effort, but it'll feel like a gimp to them otherwise. TS I don't want to be one of those DMs who puts combat above all else. It made more sense for them to bribe it than to fight it under the circumstances. I want to thank everyone for the good, thoughtful feedback. Now I'm leaning toward giving them full experience of they ever go back and fight it. :)
Tshern 02-13-08, 06:48 PM	This thought occured to me when I read this thread: I'd probably enjoy your games a lot, Thorsbjorn. When you need a little advice, you come here and ask for it. My regular DM either let's us die or swings the nerfhammer uncontrollably. Keep up the good work, mate! Also, you should give them full XP. I don't think your players are going to start abusing it and buying themselves a lot experience by sailing back and forth.
Tequila_Sunrise 02-13-08, 09:07 PM	I don't want to be one of those DMs who puts combat above all else. It made more sense for them to bribe it than to fight it under the circumstances. I want to thank everyone for the good, thoughtful feedback. Now I'm leaning toward giving them full experience of they ever go back and fight it. :) Glad to hear it. While encouraging non-combat resolutions is admirable, I don't think bribing a monster garners full XP. Personally I would award them full XP if they had had to work for their non-combat resolution. For example if they had convinced it to waive their bribe in return for doing it a favor like delivering a message to its mate or some such. But just bribing it (or just rolling a diplomacy check) is too easy and doesn't garner full XP in my opinion. TS
Loren Pechtel 02-13-08, 09:33 PM	109,000gp of items is a substantial loss, I have no problem with full xp if they go back and nail it. I would be inclined to reduce the xp somewhat as they can plan ahead for the specific encounter--going hunting a dragon turtle isn't as tough as suddenly encountering one when you didn't prep spells with that combat in mind.
Kain_Darkwind 02-14-08, 09:57 AM	On bribe vs battle being not equal....I agree. Bribing costs the party's direct resources, straight from their treasure. Battle costs the party's renewable resources, hit point, spells, etc. Defeating a monster through things like Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate (which can include bribes to sweeten the deal) can be just as difficult as hitting a high armor class. More difficult if the DM sets the DCs higher. It is on the DM to determine whether or not he makes the social encounter more difficult than a combat one. I would award the XP again in this instance. But if your players are in a constant habit of this, think hard about encounters that allow them the double tap. They should start being worth 75% of typical XP per encounter. To counter the identical mate issue, if your players had successfully bribed him and then immediately turned hostile and killed him, would you have awarded double XP?
Loren Pechtel 02-14-08, 09:09 PM	To counter the identical mate issue, if your players had successfully bribed him and then immediately turned hostile and killed him, would you have awarded double XP? A different case, they recover the bribe.
Thorsbjorn 02-14-08, 11:21 PM	A different case, they recover the bribe. Yes, and I might add that the PCs have never before had a chance to simply bribe an opponent, so they're certainly not "in the habit of doing this."
Zog_Jakome 02-15-08, 08:10 AM	I ran a campaign where the BBEG was a vampire at first the vampire destroyed them without problem they were forced to run away, no xp for that, then they fought some of his allies and servants killed them then went after him again and defeated him knowing that he wasn't completely dead and the fact that the vampire had plans for them and didn't want them to die I awarded 25% XP. at the time the vampire was 8 CRs higher than the group and was just playing around with the PCs when they do a great tactical maneuver that suprised and defeated him. this happened about 3 more times I offered 25% every time each win they gained even more power when the vampire had his way with the PCs he now wanted them dead he decided to bring in a large chunk of his allies. in a great battle the PCs finally brought the vampire close to death and with close proximity to his coffin he had to run away again I gave them 25% XP. The Vampire decided to bring out his most powerful allies which they were all undead; once the cleric got a good turn undead off it was over but the vampire's coffin was close he fought till the death it was then I awarded full XP and also full XP for all of the Vampire allies once they were found and staked. unfortunately in your situation you gave them full XP for the first encounter I would wage that a negotiation encounter is easier than a battle and not award full XP, but I agree with your statment about wanting roleplaying and social encounters to be just as important as combat encounters but how does the PCs know that you gave them Full XP. some DMs don't give any XP at all for RP encounters I am not one of them but I ad hoc the XP. I hand out a few thousand based on what their level is. but if I did find a reason to give full xp for a negotiating encounter, like in your situation where the PCs gave away 109,000 worth of stuff, and they went back to defeat it I would consider that two different encounters all together and award full XP.
Thorsbjorn 02-15-08, 08:21 AM	I ran a campaign where the BBEG was a vampire at first the vampire destroyed them without problem they were forced to run away, no xp for that, then they fought some of his allies and servants killed them then went after him again and defeated him knowing that he wasn't completely dead and the fact that the vampire had plans for them and didn't want them to die I awarded 25% XP. at the time the vampire was 8 CRs higher than the group and was just playing around with the PCs when they do a great tactical maneuver that suprised and defeated him. this happened about 3 more times I offered 25% every time each win they gained even more power when the vampire had his way with the PCs he now wanted them dead he decided to bring in a large chunk of his allies. in a great battle the PCs finally brought the vampire close to death and with close proximity to his coffin he had to run away again I gave them 25% XP. The Vampire decided to bring out his most powerful allies which they were all undead; once the cleric got a good turn undead off it was over but the vampire's coffin was close he fought till the death it was then I awarded full XP and also full XP for all of the Vampire allies once they were found and staked. unfortunately in your situation you gave them full XP for the first encounter I would wage that a negotiation encounter is easier than a battle and not award full XP, but I agree with your statment about wanting roleplaying and social encounters to be just as important as combat encounters but how does the PCs know that you gave them Full XP. some DMs don't give any XP at all for RP encounters I am not one of them but I ad hoc the XP. I hand out a few thousand based on what their level is. but if I did find a reason to give full xp for a negotiating encounter, like in your situation where the PCs gave away 109,000 worth of stuff, and they went back to defeat it I would consider that two different encounters all together and award full XP. They probably don't really know if I awarded full experience; they just know from my experience email that I gave them CR 22 experience for the dragon turtle. If I had power gamers they might sit down and calculate that CR 22 is the CR for a fully-advanced dragon turtle, although even then they wouldn't know if it might have had some sort of template or something. They probably assume though that I gave full experience because if I'm adding or subtracting for some circumstance I usually put in the email the actual CR plus or minus some amount.
Kain_Darkwind 02-15-08, 12:55 PM	Yes, and I might add that the PCs have never before had a chance to simply bribe an opponent, so they're certainly not "in the habit of doing this." In which case, I wholeheartedly support double XP for it. Assuming you made the role-playing encounter as difficult as the combat encounter, there is no need to be concerned about it.
Thorsbjorn 02-16-08, 08:20 AM	In which case, I wholeheartedly support double XP for it. Assuming you made the role-playing encounter as difficult as the combat encounter, there is no need to be concerned about it. I'm not really sure there was a way to make the roleplaying as difficult as combat would have been; the dragon turtle was extorting passing ships and demanded 100,000 gp in tribute. They offered it 103,000 worth of magic items, and it accepted that readily. I think the difficult part really is just throwing 103,000 worth of magic items overboard! Remember though that by doing so they sacrificed only their own resources and kept their missions on track. Fighting it would almost certainly have resulted in the destruction of their ship and the drowning of many of the slaves they were trying to set free. I really don't know if they will ever go back and try to find it as they have more pressing matters. I'm not even sure how they'd go about finding it again without endangering another ship and crew if indeed they do try it. Actually I think the hardest part of the encounter involved the PC wizard, the leader of the party, eating his pride and handing over the tribute for the good of his missions and the innocents he's saving. :D
rob_douglas 02-16-08, 11:36 AM	I also agree with awarding XP twice. And I would make the Dragon Turtle a little more wary - people coming back a second time might be crazy.... ;) Good work. ROB
Kain_Darkwind 02-16-08, 12:54 PM	I'm not really sure there was a way to make the roleplaying as difficult as combat would have been; the dragon turtle was extorting passing ships and demanded 100,000 gp in tribute. They offered it 103,000 worth of magic items, and it accepted that readily. I think the difficult part really is just throwing 103,000 worth of magic items overboard! Remember though that by doing so they sacrificed only their own resources and kept their missions on track. Fighting it would almost certainly have resulted in the destruction of their ship and the drowning of many of the slaves they were trying to set free. I really don't know if they will ever go back and try to find it as they have more pressing matters. I'm not even sure how they'd go about finding it again without endangering another ship and crew if indeed they do try it. Actually I think the hardest part of the encounter involved the PC wizard, the leader of the party, eating his pride and handing over the tribute for the good of his missions and the innocents he's saving. :D That's rough, no doubt about it. If you want to make it a little more roll-intensive next time, add social checks (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate) against the creature's own Appraise, Sense Motive and such. A party that dealt well with the rolls might only have to fork over 50,000, a party that dealt poorly might have to give double (or fight regardless). A party that dealt supremely well with the beast might convince it to protect them for the remainder of the journey. Don't be afraid to toss in more levels of rolling in a social encounter. They can be just as tense as traditional combat, but with high DCs and opposed rolls instead of ACs and hit points.
Thorsbjorn 02-16-08, 01:03 PM	I also agree with awarding XP twice. And I would make the Dragon Turtle a little more wary - people coming back a second time might be crazy.... ;) Good work. ROB Hi Rob! Good to see you ask always. In this case actually the dragon turtle extorts a big up-front payment from a ship and then tells the the captain or other leader to dump a tenth of the initial amount each time it passes by. Many ship captains and merchants just do that, figuring it's better than dealing with pirates who steal or burn your ship and kill or enslave you and your crews and passengers. The dragon turtle is smart and with the permanent arcane sight and great Appraise and Sense Motive checks it reaps more treasure that way than by extorting larger amounts from ships that then won't sail through its area. It also from time to time sinks pirate ships that attack ships that do pay it tribute. Its main problem actually comes from darned sahuagin who sometimes steal some of the tribute if they can sneak in and get it from the sea bottom when the turtle's not around. The dragon turtle is pretty nasty though if it finds out, so they don't risk it that much, but it still regards them as major pests. :D That's rough, no doubt about it. If you want to make it a little more roll-intensive next time, add social checks (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate) against the creature's own Appraise, Sense Motive and such. A party that dealt well with the rolls might only have to fork over 50,000, a party that dealt poorly might have to give double (or fight regardless). A party that dealt supremely well with the beast might convince it to protect them for the remainder of the journey. Don't be afraid to toss in more levels of rolling in a social encounter. They can be just as tense as traditional combat, but with high DCs and opposed rolls instead of ACs and hit points. I had it all set up to Appraise and Sense Motive, and then the party leader, the wizard, just offered it 94,000 worth of magic items in place of the 100,000 gp it demanded. It told them to toss in another 6,000 gp and it would accept the magic items. The wizard offered a suit of armor worth 9,000 (not including the underlying price of the masterwork armor) and so I didn't even need to roll. I just knew that it would gladly take 103,000 worth of magic items in place of 100,000 actual gold coins. Frankly he took me by surprise. He had three winged party members flying patrols around the ship to try to spot it and when it did ram the ship to bring it to a halt, he just talked to it. I had everyone roll initiative, and the NPCs who went before the dragon turtle all prepared things, but when it came time for the dragon turtle it demanded tribute and the wizard took it from there. I thought we were in for a big fight, and I wondered how the PCs would save all 160 freed slaves from drowning when the dragon turtle capsized the ship. I really thought this was going to bring a sad end to the character's efforts to free the slaves; that the wizard might have to use a wish or the cleric a miracle to make things right afterward. So I was very pleasantly surprised that the wizard did what he did instead. The player even wrote to me this morning to say that he really enjoyed the encounter and being able to find a way out other than fighting. :)
Thorsbjorn 02-18-08, 12:07 AM	In last night's session the captain wanted to inspect the hull of the ship for collision damage. While he was inspecting and then repairing, four smaller pirate ships, masquerading as coastal patrol ships from the city-state to which the party is traveling, came up on the ship. The PCs allowed a boarding party to come aboard for inspection. When they went below about 50 more pirates swung over from their yardarms, attempting to attack the crew and PC on the decks. The PCs managed to wipe out virtually the whole attack force in the first round, at the end of which the dragon turtle capsized one of the pirate ships! Based on what they said the PCs are confused about the dragon turtle's motives; they're surprised it attacked a ship without first surfacing to demand tribute. They don't realize that it attacked the pirate ships for attacking a ship that had paid it tribute. We ended the night with the dramatic sight of one of the pirate ships heaving up into the air and turning over, so they have a week to think about what happened. Maybe after some rest (we ended about half an hour after our usual ending time of midnight) and time they'll work it out. :D
Scion_of_The_Eternal 02-22-08, 10:10 AM	Well, looks like they got a more than a safe passage with that 1009000 gp. A potential ally in the future (for some tons of gold or an artifact) maybe? Nevertheless they got to think twice about killing it know.
Kala2000 02-22-08, 12:11 PM	You don't die on a failed bluff or diplomacy check.
Thorsbjorn 02-22-08, 02:51 PM	Well, looks like they got a more than a safe passage with that 1009000 gp. A potential ally in the future (for some tons of gold or an artifact) maybe? Nevertheless they got to think twice about killing it know. I don't know about an ally. It's not likely to leave its sea to the PCs. It doesn't, however, like pirates preying on ships that have paid it tribute. In fact it doesn't much like pirates at all. Like most dragon turtles it has a neutral alignment, and in this case that means some good (like defending ships that have paid tribute) and some evil (extorting tribute in the first place). Also while it's not above dumping a whole crew in the water to possibly drown, it doesn't like to kill and will, as it did in this case, try to rescue sailors by pushing them to a piece of flotsam to await rescue. The pirates actually kill, not to mention enslave and take treasure, and slaves usually don't have anything to give in tribute. Some pirates might actually pay tribute themselves, but that doesn't, in the dragon turtle's mind, give them leave to attack others who pay tribute. In the real world, conquerers who demand tribute (which has been most conquerers historically--the US is unique or virtually unique in actually paying off conquered people) do not like third parties attacking those who pay tribute. That's actually how Russia and China first came into conflict--Russians expanding southward in Asia demanded tribute from Asian tribes who were already paying tribute to China. The Asians ran screaming to the Chinese who reacted swiftly and forcefully, sending well-armed troops to clobber the small group of Russians, ending southward Russian expansion for a considerable period. (This was the first time that the Russians encountered Asians with firearms.) Some of the motivation you might regard as "economic"--wanting to preserve the tribute--and some of it you might regard as ego or pride. In some cases the collector of tribute (or taxes) might actually regard him/her/itself as having a moral obligation to protect those paying tribute, such as when your local government sends the police when you report someone trying to break into your house. I've given the dragon turtle all three motivations to help keep it neutral and not allow him to slide into evil. I'm not sure how the party will react. Over the course of the week I sent out a roleplaying email as I do from time to time. I had the wizard's silver dragon cohort get irritated at the foolish humanoids and tell them that the dragon turtle was there to help. (I play her like a precocious child genius.) The party's cleric of Thor though laughed at that notion and called the dragon turtle the "spawn of Jörmungandr. " The half-celestial of Thor say he wasn't sure about it being the spawn of Jörmungandr, but that it did seem like an overgrown bully--except when it saved the sailor. The wizard and other PCs have yet to reply, so I don't know what they (or their players) are thinking. The wizard's player actually did reply, but only to express excitement that the half-celestial, the party's main melee guy, had finally leveled up. He also told me that he's just loving the swashbuckling sea adventure they've been having lately--always the sort of thing a DM loves to hear! :)