shapechanging into epic monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

shapechanging into epic monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
maddog0714
09-12-07, 09:12 AM Can the shapechange spell change a person into an epic monster? If not, would Demogorgon, who has shapechange spell like ability be able to shapechange into an epic monster?
The9Circles
09-12-07, 10:17 AM Can the shapechange spell change a person into an epic monster? If not, would Demogorgon, who has shapechange spell like ability be able to shapechange into an epic monster?
To a limit of 25HD...when does epic begin? CR 21.

Shapechange
Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
Focus

A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)
Tequila_Sunrise
09-12-07, 12:06 PM Can the shapechange spell change a person into an epic monster? If not, would Demogorgon, who has shapechange spell like ability be able to shapechange into an epic monster?
What 9 Circles is trying to say is that you can polymorph into an epic monster so long as its HD does not exceed the 1 HD/caster level cap inherent in the spell. Anyone or anything that can use polymorph can do this.
maddog0714
09-12-07, 12:25 PM I know it's not exactly fair, but do you think it's over the top to allow demogorgon, (The prince of demons, who should have some kind of divine rank anyway) the ability to shapechange into epic monsters, with his shapechange ability?
BillTheManiac
09-12-07, 08:59 PM I know it's not exactly fair, but do you think it's over the top to allow demogorgon, (The prince of demons, who should have some kind of divine rank anyway) the ability to shapechange into epic monsters, with his shapechange ability?

no. The max is still 25 hit dice. You won't get very many nice epic monsters for that. Demogorgon's CR is over 20 already, you shouldn't be able to top it.

Related not: As far as I can tell, the best form for a marilith to polymorph into is a marilith. Kind of odd, isn't it?
Kihon
09-12-07, 10:46 PM I disagree (in theory) - a divine being should be able to break the rules, within their own domain. In this case (home rule?) I would allow the Demon Prince to shapechange into an Epic Monster, but ONLY in his home realm - which won't do much because no one would be silly enough to try and kill him there anyway. When he leaves his home plane then things change (which historically is how the Demon Princes have been seen) - so perhaps you let him do what he wants in his home (which makes no real difference), but when he's out plane raiding or killing near powers then he's stuck with his normal awesome form... Just a thought.
dragon221284
09-13-07, 01:32 AM Then let him cast a Destruction without a Save, but not a Shapechange without a HD maximum.
BillTheManiac
09-13-07, 09:31 AM Then let him cast a Destruction without a Save, but not a Shapechange without a HD maximum.

QFT. Shapechance with increased HD maximum is a higher level spell. Or an epic spell. Use those.
rob_douglas
09-13-07, 12:00 PM Your argument about what Demogorgon should be able to do is based on a disconnect between the flavor you want for him, and the stats given by Wizards. If you want a more powerful Demogorgon, you really need to use the rules that would make him more powerful. In this case - want to be better at Shapechange - make him Divine and give him Alter Size and Alter Form Salient Divine Abilities. But if you want to use the CR28 Demogorgon from FCI, then no, his Shapechange is just that. Same even for the CR 37 version in Dragon magazine. Dicefreaks has a CR72 version that has Cosmic Rank (similar to Divine Rank, but "different") of 18 (greater god) and lots of Divine Abilities. It might be more to your liking. See here: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12

There is also a weaker, CR 50 version here: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=311

Enjoy.

ROB
Frobojoe
09-13-07, 04:04 PM I disagree (in theory) - a divine being should be able to break the rules, within their own domain. In this case (home rule?) I would allow the Demon Prince to shapechange into an Epic Monster, but ONLY in his home realm - which won't do much because no one would be silly enough to try and kill him there anyway. When he leaves his home plane then things change (which historically is how the Demon Princes have been seen) - so perhaps you let him do what he wants in his home (which makes no real difference), but when he's out plane raiding or killing near powers then he's stuck with his normal awesome form... Just a thought.There's no point in having rules for deities and cosmic entities if you're just going to break them whenever you feel like it in order to make the entity in question more powerful. The rules should support the level of power he's supposed to have, so there should be no reason to go about breaking them.
Kihon
09-13-07, 04:28 PM Well the divine salinet ability of 'alter reality' really does allow you to do just about anything you want.
Frobojoe
09-13-07, 07:22 PM Well the divine salinet ability of 'alter reality' really does allow you to do just about anything you want.

Even Alter Reality has limits. It's not a big fat DM Fiat button.
Kihon
09-13-07, 10:20 PM Yes it does, but mostly that would apply to other divine beings, cosmic powers, and the like that may find themselves in your realm. In your own Domain a True Power that can 'alter reality' really is an entity that one should not try to mess with because they can literally affect Reality at will, within a certain range of their essence. When a mortal creature (no matter how epic, but still mortal) finds itself within the presence of a True Divine Power, they best act humble or they may find themselves in the Dead Book pretty quick. This is a bit off topic, but I see no reason a True Power couldn't shape change into pretty much anything within it's own realm (assuming that it has divine alter reality domain power).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 09-12-07, 09:12 AM	Can the shapechange spell change a person into an epic monster? If not, would Demogorgon, who has shapechange spell like ability be able to shapechange into an epic monster?
The9Circles 09-12-07, 10:17 AM	Can the shapechange spell change a person into an epic monster? If not, would Demogorgon, who has shapechange spell like ability be able to shapechange into an epic monster? To a limit of 25HD...when does epic begin? CR 21. Shapechange Transmutation Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed. You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms. You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. Focus A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)
Tequila_Sunrise 09-12-07, 12:06 PM	Can the shapechange spell change a person into an epic monster? If not, would Demogorgon, who has shapechange spell like ability be able to shapechange into an epic monster? What 9 Circles is trying to say is that you can polymorph into an epic monster so long as its HD does not exceed the 1 HD/caster level cap inherent in the spell. Anyone or anything that can use polymorph can do this.
maddog0714 09-12-07, 12:25 PM	I know it's not exactly fair, but do you think it's over the top to allow demogorgon, (The prince of demons, who should have some kind of divine rank anyway) the ability to shapechange into epic monsters, with his shapechange ability?
BillTheManiac 09-12-07, 08:59 PM	I know it's not exactly fair, but do you think it's over the top to allow demogorgon, (The prince of demons, who should have some kind of divine rank anyway) the ability to shapechange into epic monsters, with his shapechange ability? no. The max is still 25 hit dice. You won't get very many nice epic monsters for that. Demogorgon's CR is over 20 already, you shouldn't be able to top it. Related not: As far as I can tell, the best form for a marilith to polymorph into is a marilith. Kind of odd, isn't it?
Kihon 09-12-07, 10:46 PM	I disagree (in theory) - a divine being should be able to break the rules, within their own domain. In this case (home rule?) I would allow the Demon Prince to shapechange into an Epic Monster, but ONLY in his home realm - which won't do much because no one would be silly enough to try and kill him there anyway. When he leaves his home plane then things change (which historically is how the Demon Princes have been seen) - so perhaps you let him do what he wants in his home (which makes no real difference), but when he's out plane raiding or killing near powers then he's stuck with his normal awesome form... Just a thought.
dragon221284 09-13-07, 01:32 AM	Then let him cast a Destruction without a Save, but not a Shapechange without a HD maximum.
BillTheManiac 09-13-07, 09:31 AM	Then let him cast a Destruction without a Save, but not a Shapechange without a HD maximum. QFT. Shapechance with increased HD maximum is a higher level spell. Or an epic spell. Use those.
rob_douglas 09-13-07, 12:00 PM	Your argument about what Demogorgon should be able to do is based on a disconnect between the flavor you want for him, and the stats given by Wizards. If you want a more powerful Demogorgon, you really need to use the rules that would make him more powerful. In this case - want to be better at Shapechange - make him Divine and give him Alter Size and Alter Form Salient Divine Abilities. But if you want to use the CR28 Demogorgon from FCI, then no, his Shapechange is just that. Same even for the CR 37 version in Dragon magazine. Dicefreaks has a CR72 version that has Cosmic Rank (similar to Divine Rank, but "different") of 18 (greater god) and lots of Divine Abilities. It might be more to your liking. See here: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12 There is also a weaker, CR 50 version here: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=311 Enjoy. ROB
Frobojoe 09-13-07, 04:04 PM	I disagree (in theory) - a divine being should be able to break the rules, within their own domain. In this case (home rule?) I would allow the Demon Prince to shapechange into an Epic Monster, but ONLY in his home realm - which won't do much because no one would be silly enough to try and kill him there anyway. When he leaves his home plane then things change (which historically is how the Demon Princes have been seen) - so perhaps you let him do what he wants in his home (which makes no real difference), but when he's out plane raiding or killing near powers then he's stuck with his normal awesome form... Just a thought.There's no point in having rules for deities and cosmic entities if you're just going to break them whenever you feel like it in order to make the entity in question more powerful. The rules should support the level of power he's supposed to have, so there should be no reason to go about breaking them.
Kihon 09-13-07, 04:28 PM	Well the divine salinet ability of 'alter reality' really does allow you to do just about anything you want.
Frobojoe 09-13-07, 07:22 PM	Well the divine salinet ability of 'alter reality' really does allow you to do just about anything you want. Even Alter Reality has limits. It's not a big fat DM Fiat button.
Kihon 09-13-07, 10:20 PM	Yes it does, but mostly that would apply to other divine beings, cosmic powers, and the like that may find themselves in your realm. In your own Domain a True Power that can 'alter reality' really is an entity that one should not try to mess with because they can literally affect Reality at will, within a certain range of their essence. When a mortal creature (no matter how epic, but still mortal) finds itself within the presence of a True Divine Power, they best act humble or they may find themselves in the Dead Book pretty quick. This is a bit off topic, but I see no reason a True Power couldn't shape change into pretty much anything within it's own realm (assuming that it has divine alter reality domain power).