shouldn't elves be higher level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

shouldn't elves be higher level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
maddog0714
07-30-07, 05:28 PM I'm running an epic campaign, that started PC's from first level up to 23rd right now, and they've been adventuring maybe 10 years at the most.
So then should'nt elven NPC's who live hundreds of years, or human NPC's like Elminster or Halaster who are hundreds of years old, be alot higher level? like maybe 50th at least?
It's kind of strange having human NPC's in their 30's higher level than elves or hundreds of years old, or say Elminster?
BillTheManiac
07-30-07, 08:23 PM have they been adventuring all that time? No. That's why.

Also, Imagine your PCs as "prodigy" archetypes. Older characters at lower level are astounded by their progress.
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-30-07, 08:38 PM They should be, but they're not for the sake of the setting. (See Order of the Stick: On the Origins of PCs for further discussion on this)
Pyritefoolsgold
07-31-07, 04:05 AM No one should be higher than maybe fifth or seventh level without repeatedly putting themselves in absolute mortal danger. Mages may justify going a bit further without adventuring, but really once your eighth or tenth level, you are beginning to become the stuff of legends. What this means is that there should be a ton of 5th, 6th, and 7th level elves running around, who have gotten to that point through years of careful training. You level by gaining experience points, not "tracking through the same forest for the five thousandth time" points.
bluemage55
07-31-07, 07:20 AM No one should be higher than maybe fifth or seventh level without repeatedly putting themselves in absolute mortal danger.

Not at all true. You gain levels by defeating challenges, which can happen without any danger at all (although dangerous challenges are obviously going to offer more experience). Characters such as experts and merchant princes are likely gaining the bulk of their experience from non-violent scenarios.

Mages may justify going a bit further without adventuring, but really once your eighth or tenth level, you are beginning to become the stuff of legends. What this means is that there should be a ton of 5th, 6th, and 7th level elves running around, who have gotten to that point through years of careful training. You level by gaining experience points, not "tracking through the same forest for the five thousandth time" points.

You are not the stuff of legends until 11th level, as per the legend lore spell description.

All things taken together, elves generally learn slower than humans do. A newly adult human can learn to be 1st-level wizard after 2d6 years, but it takes a newly adult elf 10d6 years.

In-game, this doesn't manifest itself for the sake of party balance, so you can just assume that the elf PCs in your party are extraordinary if you're playing a normal campaign (one that normally takes place over the course of a human lifetime rather than an elf one).
runestar
07-31-07, 07:51 AM I would imagine that after a certain lv, it generally takes just too much effort to reach the next lv. There is also the problem of finding appropriate challenges which grant you xp. I mean - say you are a lv30 elven wizard. How often can you find cr22+ encounters to take on? There are only so many great wyrm dragons to fight.

So it doesn't matter if you are immortal if you still can't find stuff to kill for xp.:D
BillTheManiac
07-31-07, 05:32 PM Destiny force. That thing that makes encounters level-appropriate? NPCs don't have it. For them, a random encounter isn't free XP - it's deadly. Most of them try to be as safe as possible. They get little XP.
Draegun Fury
08-02-07, 08:59 AM should'nt elven NPC's who live hundreds of years, or human NPC's like Elminster or Halaster who are hundreds of years old, be alot higher level?

Yes! and... no.
In my world some of the greatest and most powerful beings are elves, but not all elves are thousands of years old, and indeed, most elves that my PC's meet are less than 100 years, and still keen on seeing the world.

I use the following criteria when estimating XP via Age,

For those who lead sheltered, dull lives trying to avoid all confrontation they get 1 XP a week.
Those who lead normal lives get 1 xp a day
Those who lead the lives of adventurers earn 10+xp a day.

This means that someone that is 100 years old will have:
5,200xp for a sheltered, dull life.
36,500xp for a normal life.
365,000xp for those that live an adventure's life.

PC's generally earn much more than 10XP per day and are Heroes even amongst their peers. However, the thousand year old lich could be anywhere from 30th level to 80th level depending on how active he has been. Most Elves would fall in the middle category making any that reach 1,000 years old Epic.

Anyways, thats just how I handle it, to each his own.
BillTheManiac
08-02-07, 10:09 AM So that means level 3 for a sheltered life, 9 for a normal life, and 27 for a dangerous life. Ironic progression.
runestar
08-02-07, 10:13 AM So that means level 3 for a sheltered life, 9 for a normal life, and 27 for a dangerous life. Ironic progression.

What's wrong with that? The higher lv adventurers are those who survived, the dead ones don't count.;)
BillTheManiac
08-02-07, 10:45 AM I just said ironic. I was just counting it out so I and others could see exactly what that meant. I'd also imagine some rule accounting for the possibility of wizards sitting in an academy for 100 years and being uber-powerful. I think using adventurer XP for those works well.
unundindur
08-03-07, 07:49 AM All things taken together, elves generally learn slower than humans do. A newly adult human can learn to be 1st-level wizard after 2d6 years, but it takes a newly adult elf 10d6 years.

This doesn't make sense, and it was at some point forsaken (not sure, but I think it may be Andy Colloins who said so...). I am afraid I don't remember the source but elves don't learn slower, they just have a lax lifestyle.

As it was written there is nothing wrong with an elf starting adventuring at the age of 20, he would just not be the norm of elven soceiety. The real problem is thus why elves take longer to gain intelligence, wisdom and charisma increases, which of course is purely a balancing act.
BillTheManiac
08-03-07, 07:31 PM Races of the Wild would be your source.
YourInnerDarkness
08-08-07, 10:43 PM I wouldnt say they Tend to Learn Slower.
In the Magic user Situation.
I would say they learn more Indepth.
Because Elves actually Learn Faster than Humans Do.
Thanael
08-09-07, 12:34 PM Concern: “At that rate there would be lots of high level elves. They would reach Epic levels if they lived to Maximum age.”

My reply: Elf commoners gain experience at a slower rate, 180xp per year.
Elf commoners gain experience at a slower rate, 180xp per year.

Concern: “That’s ridiculous, elves aren’t less intelligent than humans. Just because they live longer does not mean they learn slower. Would you give an elf PC half as much xp as a human PC?”

My reply: It is not about race; it is about “lifestyle” and “culture”. Adventurers (of all races) live a high-risk lifestyle full of conflict. It is learn or die. Adventurers gain experience quickly, often 1000xp per month (game time). Human commoners generally try to live in places where they have less conflict than adventurers do. They only get 30xp a month. Elven culture (among commoners) is about fitting into nature, living in balance. They tend to have less conflict and risk than human commoners do, so they gain experience slower, 15xp per month.

Of course, people are not required to agree with my opinions, but now you know the reasons behind some of the choices I have made. I will try to post L1 Elf Farmer (commoner) tomorrow.

From Elf Farmer over a lifetime (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82012)

See also SKR's Theory about peasants (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/theoryaboutpeasants.html) and the great Level advancement over a lifetime (http://enworld.org/showthread.php?t=18500), NPC guard over lifetime (http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19173), Commoner over a lifetime (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=20566) and the Common Commoner (http://enworld.org/showthread.php?t=97601) discussions on ENworld.
Mist of Shadows
08-09-07, 12:36 PM It's not the age that matters it's the usage and wear and tear. But yeah typically one would expect elves to be good at what they do. However it's also a game. So for some reason other than shear stupid numbers humans have to be the same as an elf.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 07-30-07, 05:28 PM	I'm running an epic campaign, that started PC's from first level up to 23rd right now, and they've been adventuring maybe 10 years at the most. So then should'nt elven NPC's who live hundreds of years, or human NPC's like Elminster or Halaster who are hundreds of years old, be alot higher level? like maybe 50th at least? It's kind of strange having human NPC's in their 30's higher level than elves or hundreds of years old, or say Elminster?
BillTheManiac 07-30-07, 08:23 PM	have they been adventuring all that time? No. That's why. Also, Imagine your PCs as "prodigy" archetypes. Older characters at lower level are astounded by their progress.
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-30-07, 08:38 PM	They should be, but they're not for the sake of the setting. (See Order of the Stick: On the Origins of PCs for further discussion on this)
Pyritefoolsgold 07-31-07, 04:05 AM	No one should be higher than maybe fifth or seventh level without repeatedly putting themselves in absolute mortal danger. Mages may justify going a bit further without adventuring, but really once your eighth or tenth level, you are beginning to become the stuff of legends. What this means is that there should be a ton of 5th, 6th, and 7th level elves running around, who have gotten to that point through years of careful training. You level by gaining experience points, not "tracking through the same forest for the five thousandth time" points.
bluemage55 07-31-07, 07:20 AM	No one should be higher than maybe fifth or seventh level without repeatedly putting themselves in absolute mortal danger. Not at all true. You gain levels by defeating challenges, which can happen without any danger at all (although dangerous challenges are obviously going to offer more experience). Characters such as experts and merchant princes are likely gaining the bulk of their experience from non-violent scenarios. Mages may justify going a bit further without adventuring, but really once your eighth or tenth level, you are beginning to become the stuff of legends. What this means is that there should be a ton of 5th, 6th, and 7th level elves running around, who have gotten to that point through years of careful training. You level by gaining experience points, not "tracking through the same forest for the five thousandth time" points. You are not the stuff of legends until 11th level, as per the legend lore spell description. All things taken together, elves generally learn slower than humans do. A newly adult human can learn to be 1st-level wizard after 2d6 years, but it takes a newly adult elf 10d6 years. In-game, this doesn't manifest itself for the sake of party balance, so you can just assume that the elf PCs in your party are extraordinary if you're playing a normal campaign (one that normally takes place over the course of a human lifetime rather than an elf one).
runestar 07-31-07, 07:51 AM	I would imagine that after a certain lv, it generally takes just too much effort to reach the next lv. There is also the problem of finding appropriate challenges which grant you xp. I mean - say you are a lv30 elven wizard. How often can you find cr22+ encounters to take on? There are only so many great wyrm dragons to fight. So it doesn't matter if you are immortal if you still can't find stuff to kill for xp.:D
BillTheManiac 07-31-07, 05:32 PM	Destiny force. That thing that makes encounters level-appropriate? NPCs don't have it. For them, a random encounter isn't free XP - it's deadly. Most of them try to be as safe as possible. They get little XP.
Draegun Fury 08-02-07, 08:59 AM	should'nt elven NPC's who live hundreds of years, or human NPC's like Elminster or Halaster who are hundreds of years old, be alot higher level? Yes! and... no. In my world some of the greatest and most powerful beings are elves, but not all elves are thousands of years old, and indeed, most elves that my PC's meet are less than 100 years, and still keen on seeing the world. I use the following criteria when estimating XP via Age, For those who lead sheltered, dull lives trying to avoid all confrontation they get 1 XP a week. Those who lead normal lives get 1 xp a day Those who lead the lives of adventurers earn 10+xp a day. This means that someone that is 100 years old will have: 5,200xp for a sheltered, dull life. 36,500xp for a normal life. 365,000xp for those that live an adventure's life. PC's generally earn much more than 10XP per day and are Heroes even amongst their peers. However, the thousand year old lich could be anywhere from 30th level to 80th level depending on how active he has been. Most Elves would fall in the middle category making any that reach 1,000 years old Epic. Anyways, thats just how I handle it, to each his own.
BillTheManiac 08-02-07, 10:09 AM	So that means level 3 for a sheltered life, 9 for a normal life, and 27 for a dangerous life. Ironic progression.
runestar 08-02-07, 10:13 AM	So that means level 3 for a sheltered life, 9 for a normal life, and 27 for a dangerous life. Ironic progression. What's wrong with that? The higher lv adventurers are those who survived, the dead ones don't count.;)
BillTheManiac 08-02-07, 10:45 AM	I just said ironic. I was just counting it out so I and others could see exactly what that meant. I'd also imagine some rule accounting for the possibility of wizards sitting in an academy for 100 years and being uber-powerful. I think using adventurer XP for those works well.
unundindur 08-03-07, 07:49 AM	All things taken together, elves generally learn slower than humans do. A newly adult human can learn to be 1st-level wizard after 2d6 years, but it takes a newly adult elf 10d6 years. This doesn't make sense, and it was at some point forsaken (not sure, but I think it may be Andy Colloins who said so...). I am afraid I don't remember the source but elves don't learn slower, they just have a lax lifestyle. As it was written there is nothing wrong with an elf starting adventuring at the age of 20, he would just not be the norm of elven soceiety. The real problem is thus why elves take longer to gain intelligence, wisdom and charisma increases, which of course is purely a balancing act.
BillTheManiac 08-03-07, 07:31 PM	Races of the Wild would be your source.
YourInnerDarkness 08-08-07, 10:43 PM	I wouldnt say they Tend to Learn Slower. In the Magic user Situation. I would say they learn more Indepth. Because Elves actually Learn Faster than Humans Do.
Thanael 08-09-07, 12:34 PM	Concern: “At that rate there would be lots of high level elves. They would reach Epic levels if they lived to Maximum age.” My reply: Elf commoners gain experience at a slower rate, 180xp per year. Elf commoners gain experience at a slower rate, 180xp per year. Concern: “That’s ridiculous, elves aren’t less intelligent than humans. Just because they live longer does not mean they learn slower. Would you give an elf PC half as much xp as a human PC?” My reply: It is not about race; it is about “lifestyle” and “culture”. Adventurers (of all races) live a high-risk lifestyle full of conflict. It is learn or die. Adventurers gain experience quickly, often 1000xp per month (game time). Human commoners generally try to live in places where they have less conflict than adventurers do. They only get 30xp a month. Elven culture (among commoners) is about fitting into nature, living in balance. They tend to have less conflict and risk than human commoners do, so they gain experience slower, 15xp per month. Of course, people are not required to agree with my opinions, but now you know the reasons behind some of the choices I have made. I will try to post L1 Elf Farmer (commoner) tomorrow. From Elf Farmer over a lifetime (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82012) See also SKR's Theory about peasants (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/theoryaboutpeasants.html) and the great Level advancement over a lifetime (http://enworld.org/showthread.php?t=18500), NPC guard over lifetime (http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19173), Commoner over a lifetime (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=20566) and the Common Commoner (http://enworld.org/showthread.php?t=97601) discussions on ENworld.
Mist of Shadows 08-09-07, 12:36 PM	It's not the age that matters it's the usage and wear and tear. But yeah typically one would expect elves to be good at what they do. However it's also a game. So for some reason other than shear stupid numbers humans have to be the same as an elf.