Skill points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skill points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Legdiwena
08-07-07, 04:42 PM Do epic characters get a different skill point progression?
rob_douglas
08-07-07, 04:59 PM No.

ROB
Oakspar77777
08-07-07, 05:24 PM Note that this is why it is very popular to multi-class early into epic levels from melee or spell classes (which have diminishing returns in epic) into an auxillary class with lots of skillpoint or a new spellcasting class (with a new spellcasting progression).

A LV20 fighter looses very little to start taking levels of rogue and the skill points and sneak attack soon add great flexability to him.
Witch
08-07-07, 05:29 PM Sneak attack at epic levels grows virtually useless - everyone's immune. Spellcasters doing it waste caster levels.
Legdiwena
08-07-07, 07:54 PM Gonna do a monk 20, not sure after that.
archerpwr
08-08-07, 10:23 AM Sneak attack at epic levels grows virtually useless - everyone's immune. Spellcasters doing it waste caster levels.

Do note that unseen seer 2 gets you hunters eye to persist for scaling SA when it works. I'm considering dipping unseen seer and then wyrm wizard to grab miracle. Seems a decent idea at the cost of one epic bonus feat.
runestar
08-08-07, 10:50 AM Templates might not be a bad idea for epic fighters - all those physical stat boosts suddenly don't seem so bad compared to epic bab tradeoff.

With practiced spellcaster, it might be beneficial for a spellcaster to take up to 4 lvs in another class, depending on the abilities granted. You don't get more slots or spells known anyways. Maybe paladin for sorc (cha mod to saves) or monk+kung-fu genius (int mod to AC) for wizard.
Oakspar77777
08-08-07, 11:17 AM 1 - There are still plenty of epic foes that take critical hits / sneak attack. (Dragons, Giants, Leveled Humanoids, etc, except those that take measures against it).

2 - Early on in your epic life, you will seldom face epic foes. There are still pleanty of dragons in your CR rating as well groups of other powerful foes.

3 - Spellcasters do loose spellcaster levels, but that only matters for SR. By the time you get to be epic, you should have ways to get arround truely difficult SR (summoning, etc). Otherwise, there is a simple non-epic feat that will keep your caster level up for 4 levels per shot. Also, since you don't have to be MC to take said feat, you could take it as a dedicated caster back at level 18 if you don't want to waste an epic feat slot for a normal feat.

4 - What you want to avoid is anything that doesn't add new abilities, since saves and BAB stop and HP becomes less of an issue to survivability (and can be better shifted by feats than by HD type).

So, if you have been a monk for 20 levels, there are several good options. You can just continue with epic levels of Monk, since Monk does rather well with epic levels in becoming absolutely untouchable.

Other good options probably won't revolve arround skills (since you should already be pretty well set up). I would suggest Druid. You already likely have a high WS, so you are set up that way. Also, Druid will give you extra healing (which can also help patch up the party's primary healer in a pinch). Druid spells often help natural attacks, which will synergize well with your unarmed strike. Your unarmed strikes and movement bonus will later synergize well with wild shape.

You could do the same general thing with Cleric, since your unarmed strike can be augmented with Cause X Wounds spells, and the Strength domain can later be a lifesaver. I just perfer the flexability of Wild Shape.

Arcane casting can get you some other options for utility spells, with Shield at level one being a decent buff for most Monks from the start. Just remember that with 20 levels of Monk, you should not take a spellcasting class to blow things up. Rather you should look for spells that essentially become "extra" abilities.

(Invisability, True Strike, Cause X Wounds, Levitate/Fly, See Invisability, Meld into Stone, Restoration, Silence, etc)

9 - One final note. Since you are a Monk, you already suffer from MAD. As such, you are the most ability score depended class there is. It is SO worth the money at epic levels to comission 5 scrolls of Wish (Tome of X, Ring of Wishes, etc) to boost a stat by 5. In fact, you should be putting everything you can into getting ST, DX, CN, and WS increased to the max that Wishing can get it to. You can't knock +2.5 to attacks and damage (three feats worth of bonus), +2.5 to AC and a save (DX or WS), or @50 HP.

If you have the CH for it (or someone else in the party), take leadership and get yourself a nice little Wizard Cohort built to creat items. You should (by level 20+) be able to get him over level 17 so that he can start making those scrolls of Wish for reduced cost (to you) and burning his XP (small loss). Afterwords, he becomes a one stop half off magic item store.
bluemage55
08-09-07, 03:27 AM 1 - There are still plenty of epic foes that take critical hits / sneak attack. (Dragons, Giants, Leveled Humanoids, etc, except those that take measures against it).

The most dangerous epic foe is the epic NPC, against which you will not be able to sneak attack. And besides, why devote a large amount of resources in character levels, feats, etc. to improve a tactic that can sometimes be completely useless? Why not emphasize a more useful combat strategy?

2 - Early on in your epic life, you will seldom face epic foes. There are still pleanty of dragons in your CR rating as well groups of other powerful foes.

It does not take an epic creature to be immune to sneak attacks. Merely a gem of fortification or animated shield of heavy fortification is enough.

13 - Spellcasters do loose spellcaster levels, but that only matters for SR. By the time you get to be epic, you should have ways to get arround truely difficult SR (summoning, etc). Otherwise, there is a simple non-epic feat that will keep your caster level up for 4 levels per shot. Also, since you don't have to be MC to take said feat, you could take it as a dedicated caster back at level 18 if you don't want to waste an epic feat slot for a normal feat.

Losing CL is most important not for SR, but for opposed caster level checks, including the all-important opposed rolls you make to shut down opposing epic spells.

14 - What you want to avoid is anything that doesn't add new abilities, since saves and BAB stop and HP becomes less of an issue to survivability (and can be better shifted by feats than by HD type).

I'm not aware of any class that does not add new abilities. Epic bonus feats are an excellent and valuable ability that supersede junk abilities like sneak attack.

1So, if you have been a monk for 20 levels, there are several good options. You can just continue with epic levels of Monk, since Monk does rather well with epic levels in becoming absolutely untouchable.

The monk does about as well with their AC as another character using an augmented version of a monk's belt.
Oakspar77777
08-09-07, 02:22 PM 1 - Epic characters can be sneak attacked unless they have one of the handful of items that prevents it. If EVERY, or even the majority of epic characters in your game are walking arround with floating shields, then your DM needs to be more creative in his worldbuilding.

2 - As I mentioned, you can recover caster level 4 at a time with a simple feat. You could likely develop an epic version of the same feat with your DM if you like as well.

3 - Yes, epic feats rock. You still get those every three levels as an epic character. Again, I will reiterate that while at normal levels a party is usually best served by four specialist, the nature of epic levels creating diminishing returns, means that broadening the party by broadening characters is a signifigant and worthwhile thing to do.

4 - I said that a Monk becomes untouchable due not just to AC, but more so to evasion, movement, saves, resistance, etc. With a handful of epic feats (Deflect Ray, Infinite Deflection, etc), maxed out stat boost, and good equipment, a Monk really does get into the untouchable range.
Witch
08-09-07, 02:48 PM Oakspar - it's no question of creativity. Any epic characters with intelligence above 8 will buy something with Fortification. It simply makes sense. It's loads of defence for a cheap price.
archerpwr
08-09-07, 09:43 PM Oakspar - it's no question of creativity. Any epic characters with intelligence above 8 will buy something with Fortification. It simply makes sense. It's loads of defence for a cheap price.

My gish didnt :P There are spells for that (Elemental Body, SC) and I needed soulfire and proof against transmutation
bluemage55
08-12-07, 09:08 AM 1 - Epic characters can be sneak attacked unless they have one of the handful of items that prevents it. If EVERY, or even the majority of epic characters in your game are walking arround with floating shields, then your DM needs to be more creative in his worldbuilding.

Every epic character gets fortification, just as every epic character gets death ward and mind blank. These are basic defenses necessary survival. A lackthereof does not indicate a creative DM, but an inexperienced one.

2 - As I mentioned, you can recover caster level 4 at a time with a simple feat. You could likely develop an epic version of the same feat with your DM if you like as well.

And my point is that losing a single CL is detrimental.

3 - Yes, epic feats rock. You still get those every three levels as an epic character. Again, I will reiterate that while at normal levels a party is usually best served by four specialist, the nature of epic levels creating diminishing returns, means that broadening the party by broadening characters is a signifigant and worthwhile thing to do.

Broadening the characters can be a good idea. A spellcaster multiclassing into monk, however, gains little.

4 - I said that a Monk becomes untouchable due not just to AC, but more so to evasion, movement, saves, resistance, etc. With a handful of epic feats (Deflect Ray, Infinite Deflection, etc), maxed out stat boost, and good equipment, a Monk really does get into the untouchable range.

None of those defenses are limited to monks; another character can get the same things (except maybe movement speed) without actually getting monk levels. Trading off your epic bonus feat progression for monk speed usually is not a good idea.

Also, you mentioned saves, on the list, which is rather silly because everyone who has played Epic knows of the existence of the Epic save bonuses.
Oakspar77777
08-12-07, 10:26 AM 1 - Most players may work towards fortification, mind blank, death ward, etc, except that all do not. A Dwarven Defender at level 20 doesn't have much need for Death Ward. He is going to make EVERY Fortitude save sent his way. The Cleric is going to have Death Ward, but with his permanent Protection Against Evil and Will save, he might not need Mind Blank.

Evil monsters (of which there are many) will have no gear. Intellegent foes usually will, but if the surrounding area is heavy with a certain threat or devoid of one, then that will affect the gear chosen by foes.

Again, good worldbuilding is not tweaked out foes, but rather a world with foes that make sense (an ever increasing difficulty in epic levels) that contains enought consistance and verisimilitude to allow your players to suspend their disbelief and immerse themselves within the world for a few hours of corporate fun.

2 - Loosing a single caster level NEVER HAPPENS with the feat I mentioned. LV20 Wizard, LV4 Cleric with said feat cast spells as a LV24 Wizard.

3 - We were not discussing a Spellcaster going Monk, rather a Monk going Spellcaster. A 20LV Spellcaster already has a magical means of doing damage. A 20LV Monk has his unarmed attacks. The spellcaster would only gain a handful of defensive bonuses and a crappy attack. The Monk, however, gains increasing abilities to Buff himself magically, without depending on others (who are likely spending their first round of combat doing something other than boosting him).

For example, while many epic foes can see an invisable wizard, the sneaky monk uses invisability with more confidence, since he still will get by when the spell is not useful against the foe, and gets that +20 to his Hide when it is useful. Shield is a useful +4 boost to AC as a shield bonus that the caster can only cast on himself. MANY Monks at level 21 are still not using anykind of shield bonus.

4 - I mentioned saves with good cause, and the silliness was in your understanding. Once you get into epic levels, yes, saves and attack bonuses become uniform (making them non-reasons to choose an epic class). However, as anyone who have played up to epic levels knows, what your attack bonus and saves do before epic levels makes a HUGE difference. The Monk had THREE GOOD SAVES up to level 20. While everyone else (other than the Favored Soul) has some saves that they are 50% less likely to make that others, the Monk does not. Also, since Monks are MAD characters, they likely have buffed all three save stats consistantly, giving them the highest saves in the game well into epic levels. Of course, once in epic, the Monk is still 50% more likely to make a Will or Reflex save than the fighter (until he takes feats to even things up, feats that the monk can use elsewhere or use to take their saves even higher).

That is why Monks might look to cross into a new class, but few would look to cross into Monk. Read more carefully.
archerpwr
08-12-07, 11:50 AM Quick interuption:
Monks do not have the best saves; paladin et all do
bluemage55
08-14-07, 08:16 AM 1 - Most players may work towards fortification, mind blank, death ward, etc, except that all do not. A Dwarven Defender at level 20 doesn't have much need for Death Ward. He is going to make EVERY Fortitude save sent his way. The Cleric is going to have Death Ward, but with his permanent Protection Against Evil and Will save, he might not need Mind Blank.

Even if your saves are sufficiently high, it is more than worth the relatively small gold cost for the full immunity to protect you from natural 1s.

Evil monsters (of which there are many) will have no gear. Intellegent foes usually will, but if the surrounding area is heavy with a certain threat or devoid of one, then that will affect the gear chosen by foes.

There is nothing to suggest that all evil monsters will have no gear. Whether or not a creature uses gear depends on its type, not its alignment. The specific foes faced by epic characters will vary from campaign to campaign, and simply because there are more of a type of monster does not suggest that this type will be encountered more often.

A better generalization would be that at epic, most of the foes (whether humanoid or monstrous) you face are intelligent (sometimes extremely so). Given this, those foes will equip themselves appropriately with standard defensive gear (even if they need to alter their form or have custom gear to do so).

Again, good worldbuilding is not tweaked out foes, but rather a world with foes that make sense (an ever increasing difficulty in epic levels) that contains enought consistance and verisimilitude to allow your players to suspend their disbelief and immerse themselves within the world for a few hours of corporate fun.

It makes sense that enemies that are smarter than we can imagine would have basic defenses that I (a mere human with around Int 16) can automatically pinpoint as necessary.

2 - Loosing a single caster level NEVER HAPPENS with the feat I mentioned. LV20 Wizard, LV4 Cleric with said feat cast spells as a LV24 Wizard.

Right. Unfortunately, the benefits of having 4 levels of Cleric are minimal. To attain the true versatility of the kind you were suggesting would require far greater investment than 4 levels.

3 - We were not discussing a Spellcaster going Monk, rather a Monk going Spellcaster. A 20LV Spellcaster already has a magical means of doing damage. A 20LV Monk has his unarmed attacks. The spellcaster would only gain a handful of defensive bonuses and a crappy attack. The Monk, however, gains increasing abilities to Buff himself magically, without depending on others (who are likely spending their first round of combat doing something other than boosting him).

A monk going spellcaster at 20th would still be a poor idea, as there are a plethora of useful, newly available epic feats that should be picked up quickly.

For example, while many epic foes can see an invisable wizard, the sneaky monk uses invisability with more confidence, since he still will get by when the spell is not useful against the foe, and gets that +20 to his Hide when it is useful. Shield is a useful +4 boost to AC as a shield bonus that the caster can only cast on himself. MANY Monks at level 21 are still not using anykind of shield bonus.

A monk could alternatively rely on magic items for the same effects at minimal cost. Achieving the epic feats that the monk loses would be far more expensive.

4 - I mentioned saves with good cause, and the silliness was in your understanding. Once you get into epic levels, yes, saves and attack bonuses become uniform (making them non-reasons to choose an epic class). However, as anyone who have played up to epic levels knows, what your attack bonus and saves do before epic levels makes a HUGE difference. The Monk had THREE GOOD SAVES up to level 20. While everyone else (other than the Favored Soul) has some saves that they are 50% less likely to make that others, the Monk does not. Also, since Monks are MAD characters, they likely have buffed all three save stats consistantly, giving them the highest saves in the game well into epic levels. Of course, once in epic, the Monk is still 50% more likely to make a Will or Reflex save than the fighter (until he takes feats to even things up, feats that the monk can use elsewhere or use to take their saves even higher).

No one fails saves at epic level anyway except on natural 1s. Magic items that boost saves scale faster than save DCs. While having strong base saves is useful (insofar as it saves you some money on your defensive equipment) it does not mean that the monk has a defense better than any other character.

That is why Monks might look to cross into a new class, but few would look to cross into Monk. Read more carefully.

I did indeed misunderstand your argument. Most of my points still stand.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Legdiwena 08-07-07, 04:42 PM	Do epic characters get a different skill point progression?
rob_douglas 08-07-07, 04:59 PM	No. ROB
Oakspar77777 08-07-07, 05:24 PM	Note that this is why it is very popular to multi-class early into epic levels from melee or spell classes (which have diminishing returns in epic) into an auxillary class with lots of skillpoint or a new spellcasting class (with a new spellcasting progression). A LV20 fighter looses very little to start taking levels of rogue and the skill points and sneak attack soon add great flexability to him.
Witch 08-07-07, 05:29 PM	Sneak attack at epic levels grows virtually useless - everyone's immune. Spellcasters doing it waste caster levels.
Legdiwena 08-07-07, 07:54 PM	Gonna do a monk 20, not sure after that.
archerpwr 08-08-07, 10:23 AM	Sneak attack at epic levels grows virtually useless - everyone's immune. Spellcasters doing it waste caster levels. Do note that unseen seer 2 gets you hunters eye to persist for scaling SA when it works. I'm considering dipping unseen seer and then wyrm wizard to grab miracle. Seems a decent idea at the cost of one epic bonus feat.
runestar 08-08-07, 10:50 AM	Templates might not be a bad idea for epic fighters - all those physical stat boosts suddenly don't seem so bad compared to epic bab tradeoff. With practiced spellcaster, it might be beneficial for a spellcaster to take up to 4 lvs in another class, depending on the abilities granted. You don't get more slots or spells known anyways. Maybe paladin for sorc (cha mod to saves) or monk+kung-fu genius (int mod to AC) for wizard.
Oakspar77777 08-08-07, 11:17 AM	1 - There are still plenty of epic foes that take critical hits / sneak attack. (Dragons, Giants, Leveled Humanoids, etc, except those that take measures against it). 2 - Early on in your epic life, you will seldom face epic foes. There are still pleanty of dragons in your CR rating as well groups of other powerful foes. 3 - Spellcasters do loose spellcaster levels, but that only matters for SR. By the time you get to be epic, you should have ways to get arround truely difficult SR (summoning, etc). Otherwise, there is a simple non-epic feat that will keep your caster level up for 4 levels per shot. Also, since you don't have to be MC to take said feat, you could take it as a dedicated caster back at level 18 if you don't want to waste an epic feat slot for a normal feat. 4 - What you want to avoid is anything that doesn't add new abilities, since saves and BAB stop and HP becomes less of an issue to survivability (and can be better shifted by feats than by HD type). So, if you have been a monk for 20 levels, there are several good options. You can just continue with epic levels of Monk, since Monk does rather well with epic levels in becoming absolutely untouchable. Other good options probably won't revolve arround skills (since you should already be pretty well set up). I would suggest Druid. You already likely have a high WS, so you are set up that way. Also, Druid will give you extra healing (which can also help patch up the party's primary healer in a pinch). Druid spells often help natural attacks, which will synergize well with your unarmed strike. Your unarmed strikes and movement bonus will later synergize well with wild shape. You could do the same general thing with Cleric, since your unarmed strike can be augmented with Cause X Wounds spells, and the Strength domain can later be a lifesaver. I just perfer the flexability of Wild Shape. Arcane casting can get you some other options for utility spells, with Shield at level one being a decent buff for most Monks from the start. Just remember that with 20 levels of Monk, you should not take a spellcasting class to blow things up. Rather you should look for spells that essentially become "extra" abilities. (Invisability, True Strike, Cause X Wounds, Levitate/Fly, See Invisability, Meld into Stone, Restoration, Silence, etc) 9 - One final note. Since you are a Monk, you already suffer from MAD. As such, you are the most ability score depended class there is. It is SO worth the money at epic levels to comission 5 scrolls of Wish (Tome of X, Ring of Wishes, etc) to boost a stat by 5. In fact, you should be putting everything you can into getting ST, DX, CN, and WS increased to the max that Wishing can get it to. You can't knock +2.5 to attacks and damage (three feats worth of bonus), +2.5 to AC and a save (DX or WS), or @50 HP. If you have the CH for it (or someone else in the party), take leadership and get yourself a nice little Wizard Cohort built to creat items. You should (by level 20+) be able to get him over level 17 so that he can start making those scrolls of Wish for reduced cost (to you) and burning his XP (small loss). Afterwords, he becomes a one stop half off magic item store.
bluemage55 08-09-07, 03:27 AM	1 - There are still plenty of epic foes that take critical hits / sneak attack. (Dragons, Giants, Leveled Humanoids, etc, except those that take measures against it). The most dangerous epic foe is the epic NPC, against which you will not be able to sneak attack. And besides, why devote a large amount of resources in character levels, feats, etc. to improve a tactic that can sometimes be completely useless? Why not emphasize a more useful combat strategy? 2 - Early on in your epic life, you will seldom face epic foes. There are still pleanty of dragons in your CR rating as well groups of other powerful foes. It does not take an epic creature to be immune to sneak attacks. Merely a gem of fortification or animated shield of heavy fortification is enough. 13 - Spellcasters do loose spellcaster levels, but that only matters for SR. By the time you get to be epic, you should have ways to get arround truely difficult SR (summoning, etc). Otherwise, there is a simple non-epic feat that will keep your caster level up for 4 levels per shot. Also, since you don't have to be MC to take said feat, you could take it as a dedicated caster back at level 18 if you don't want to waste an epic feat slot for a normal feat. Losing CL is most important not for SR, but for opposed caster level checks, including the all-important opposed rolls you make to shut down opposing epic spells. 14 - What you want to avoid is anything that doesn't add new abilities, since saves and BAB stop and HP becomes less of an issue to survivability (and can be better shifted by feats than by HD type). I'm not aware of any class that does not add new abilities. Epic bonus feats are an excellent and valuable ability that supersede junk abilities like sneak attack. 1So, if you have been a monk for 20 levels, there are several good options. You can just continue with epic levels of Monk, since Monk does rather well with epic levels in becoming absolutely untouchable. The monk does about as well with their AC as another character using an augmented version of a monk's belt.
Oakspar77777 08-09-07, 02:22 PM	1 - Epic characters can be sneak attacked unless they have one of the handful of items that prevents it. If EVERY, or even the majority of epic characters in your game are walking arround with floating shields, then your DM needs to be more creative in his worldbuilding. 2 - As I mentioned, you can recover caster level 4 at a time with a simple feat. You could likely develop an epic version of the same feat with your DM if you like as well. 3 - Yes, epic feats rock. You still get those every three levels as an epic character. Again, I will reiterate that while at normal levels a party is usually best served by four specialist, the nature of epic levels creating diminishing returns, means that broadening the party by broadening characters is a signifigant and worthwhile thing to do. 4 - I said that a Monk becomes untouchable due not just to AC, but more so to evasion, movement, saves, resistance, etc. With a handful of epic feats (Deflect Ray, Infinite Deflection, etc), maxed out stat boost, and good equipment, a Monk really does get into the untouchable range.
Witch 08-09-07, 02:48 PM	Oakspar - it's no question of creativity. Any epic characters with intelligence above 8 will buy something with Fortification. It simply makes sense. It's loads of defence for a cheap price.
archerpwr 08-09-07, 09:43 PM	Oakspar - it's no question of creativity. Any epic characters with intelligence above 8 will buy something with Fortification. It simply makes sense. It's loads of defence for a cheap price. My gish didnt :P There are spells for that (Elemental Body, SC) and I needed soulfire and proof against transmutation
bluemage55 08-12-07, 09:08 AM	1 - Epic characters can be sneak attacked unless they have one of the handful of items that prevents it. If EVERY, or even the majority of epic characters in your game are walking arround with floating shields, then your DM needs to be more creative in his worldbuilding. Every epic character gets fortification, just as every epic character gets death ward and mind blank. These are basic defenses necessary survival. A lackthereof does not indicate a creative DM, but an inexperienced one. 2 - As I mentioned, you can recover caster level 4 at a time with a simple feat. You could likely develop an epic version of the same feat with your DM if you like as well. And my point is that losing a single CL is detrimental. 3 - Yes, epic feats rock. You still get those every three levels as an epic character. Again, I will reiterate that while at normal levels a party is usually best served by four specialist, the nature of epic levels creating diminishing returns, means that broadening the party by broadening characters is a signifigant and worthwhile thing to do. Broadening the characters can be a good idea. A spellcaster multiclassing into monk, however, gains little. 4 - I said that a Monk becomes untouchable due not just to AC, but more so to evasion, movement, saves, resistance, etc. With a handful of epic feats (Deflect Ray, Infinite Deflection, etc), maxed out stat boost, and good equipment, a Monk really does get into the untouchable range. None of those defenses are limited to monks; another character can get the same things (except maybe movement speed) without actually getting monk levels. Trading off your epic bonus feat progression for monk speed usually is not a good idea. Also, you mentioned saves, on the list, which is rather silly because everyone who has played Epic knows of the existence of the Epic save bonuses.
Oakspar77777 08-12-07, 10:26 AM	1 - Most players may work towards fortification, mind blank, death ward, etc, except that all do not. A Dwarven Defender at level 20 doesn't have much need for Death Ward. He is going to make EVERY Fortitude save sent his way. The Cleric is going to have Death Ward, but with his permanent Protection Against Evil and Will save, he might not need Mind Blank. Evil monsters (of which there are many) will have no gear. Intellegent foes usually will, but if the surrounding area is heavy with a certain threat or devoid of one, then that will affect the gear chosen by foes. Again, good worldbuilding is not tweaked out foes, but rather a world with foes that make sense (an ever increasing difficulty in epic levels) that contains enought consistance and verisimilitude to allow your players to suspend their disbelief and immerse themselves within the world for a few hours of corporate fun. 2 - Loosing a single caster level NEVER HAPPENS with the feat I mentioned. LV20 Wizard, LV4 Cleric with said feat cast spells as a LV24 Wizard. 3 - We were not discussing a Spellcaster going Monk, rather a Monk going Spellcaster. A 20LV Spellcaster already has a magical means of doing damage. A 20LV Monk has his unarmed attacks. The spellcaster would only gain a handful of defensive bonuses and a crappy attack. The Monk, however, gains increasing abilities to Buff himself magically, without depending on others (who are likely spending their first round of combat doing something other than boosting him). For example, while many epic foes can see an invisable wizard, the sneaky monk uses invisability with more confidence, since he still will get by when the spell is not useful against the foe, and gets that +20 to his Hide when it is useful. Shield is a useful +4 boost to AC as a shield bonus that the caster can only cast on himself. MANY Monks at level 21 are still not using anykind of shield bonus. 4 - I mentioned saves with good cause, and the silliness was in your understanding. Once you get into epic levels, yes, saves and attack bonuses become uniform (making them non-reasons to choose an epic class). However, as anyone who have played up to epic levels knows, what your attack bonus and saves do before epic levels makes a HUGE difference. The Monk had THREE GOOD SAVES up to level 20. While everyone else (other than the Favored Soul) has some saves that they are 50% less likely to make that others, the Monk does not. Also, since Monks are MAD characters, they likely have buffed all three save stats consistantly, giving them the highest saves in the game well into epic levels. Of course, once in epic, the Monk is still 50% more likely to make a Will or Reflex save than the fighter (until he takes feats to even things up, feats that the monk can use elsewhere or use to take their saves even higher). That is why Monks might look to cross into a new class, but few would look to cross into Monk. Read more carefully.
archerpwr 08-12-07, 11:50 AM	Quick interuption: Monks do not have the best saves; paladin et all do
bluemage55 08-14-07, 08:16 AM	1 - Most players may work towards fortification, mind blank, death ward, etc, except that all do not. A Dwarven Defender at level 20 doesn't have much need for Death Ward. He is going to make EVERY Fortitude save sent his way. The Cleric is going to have Death Ward, but with his permanent Protection Against Evil and Will save, he might not need Mind Blank. Even if your saves are sufficiently high, it is more than worth the relatively small gold cost for the full immunity to protect you from natural 1s. Evil monsters (of which there are many) will have no gear. Intellegent foes usually will, but if the surrounding area is heavy with a certain threat or devoid of one, then that will affect the gear chosen by foes. There is nothing to suggest that all evil monsters will have no gear. Whether or not a creature uses gear depends on its type, not its alignment. The specific foes faced by epic characters will vary from campaign to campaign, and simply because there are more of a type of monster does not suggest that this type will be encountered more often. A better generalization would be that at epic, most of the foes (whether humanoid or monstrous) you face are intelligent (sometimes extremely so). Given this, those foes will equip themselves appropriately with standard defensive gear (even if they need to alter their form or have custom gear to do so). Again, good worldbuilding is not tweaked out foes, but rather a world with foes that make sense (an ever increasing difficulty in epic levels) that contains enought consistance and verisimilitude to allow your players to suspend their disbelief and immerse themselves within the world for a few hours of corporate fun. It makes sense that enemies that are smarter than we can imagine would have basic defenses that I (a mere human with around Int 16) can automatically pinpoint as necessary. 2 - Loosing a single caster level NEVER HAPPENS with the feat I mentioned. LV20 Wizard, LV4 Cleric with said feat cast spells as a LV24 Wizard. Right. Unfortunately, the benefits of having 4 levels of Cleric are minimal. To attain the true versatility of the kind you were suggesting would require far greater investment than 4 levels. 3 - We were not discussing a Spellcaster going Monk, rather a Monk going Spellcaster. A 20LV Spellcaster already has a magical means of doing damage. A 20LV Monk has his unarmed attacks. The spellcaster would only gain a handful of defensive bonuses and a crappy attack. The Monk, however, gains increasing abilities to Buff himself magically, without depending on others (who are likely spending their first round of combat doing something other than boosting him). A monk going spellcaster at 20th would still be a poor idea, as there are a plethora of useful, newly available epic feats that should be picked up quickly. For example, while many epic foes can see an invisable wizard, the sneaky monk uses invisability with more confidence, since he still will get by when the spell is not useful against the foe, and gets that +20 to his Hide when it is useful. Shield is a useful +4 boost to AC as a shield bonus that the caster can only cast on himself. MANY Monks at level 21 are still not using anykind of shield bonus. A monk could alternatively rely on magic items for the same effects at minimal cost. Achieving the epic feats that the monk loses would be far more expensive. 4 - I mentioned saves with good cause, and the silliness was in your understanding. Once you get into epic levels, yes, saves and attack bonuses become uniform (making them non-reasons to choose an epic class). However, as anyone who have played up to epic levels knows, what your attack bonus and saves do before epic levels makes a HUGE difference. The Monk had THREE GOOD SAVES up to level 20. While everyone else (other than the Favored Soul) has some saves that they are 50% less likely to make that others, the Monk does not. Also, since Monks are MAD characters, they likely have buffed all three save stats consistantly, giving them the highest saves in the game well into epic levels. Of course, once in epic, the Monk is still 50% more likely to make a Will or Reflex save than the fighter (until he takes feats to even things up, feats that the monk can use elsewhere or use to take their saves even higher). No one fails saves at epic level anyway except on natural 1s. Magic items that boost saves scale faster than save DCs. While having strong base saves is useful (insofar as it saves you some money on your defensive equipment) it does not mean that the monk has a defense better than any other character. That is why Monks might look to cross into a new class, but few would look to cross into Monk. Read more carefully. I did indeed misunderstand your argument. Most of my points still stand.