Slave to your Familiar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Slave to your Familiar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Perseus_Stoned
03-03-07, 08:36 PM Given that a wizard's familiar's intelligence advances by one for every 2 wizard levels, if you play relatively far into epic levels couldn't your familiar possess a significantly higher intelligence than your own? I've never played an epic game, yet alone a wizard either, so this maybe unfounded, but is this something you'd need to be concerned about at say... EXTREMELY epic levels (maybe even three digits)?
bluemage55
03-03-07, 10:26 PM A wizard would usually be increasing their own intelligence with their free point increase every four levels.

In addition, they will probably a significant amount of wealth invested in a headband of intellect.

Still, it is possible for a familiar to have higher Int. In the case of sorcerers, this is especially likely.

However, is that a problem?
scienceman47
03-03-07, 11:48 PM A sorceror frequently ends up dumber than their familier before they can cast 9th lvl spells.

Its no more a danger than the fighter being in the same party as a wizard.
runestar
03-04-07, 01:28 AM A sorceror frequently ends up dumber than their familier before they can cast 9th lvl spells.

Its no more a danger than the fighter being in the same party as a wizard.
It is not necessarily a bad thing. This means a familiar will have higher spellcraft and knowledge:arcana checks than the sorc...:cool:
ElIsRa
03-04-07, 03:57 AM I've never really thought about it before.... Actually, it would be fun to switch roles once a familiar surpasses his handler in intellect. Playing from the perspective of a hyper intelligent owl familiar who has this powerful class feature called "Sorcerer"..... Just a thought.
WombleHunter
03-04-07, 11:16 AM In a similar vein, I recently came up with the idea of a high-level Fighter who was totally dominated by his intelligent sword, to the point where you would play the sword instead of the man. It hinged around the character spending all their wealth improving the sword, and having a pitiful Will save. The only problem then would be whether Dominate effects trump intelligent item Ego scores...
Lyinginbedmon
03-04-07, 11:51 AM Is it any wonder why my 71st ECL Wizard-based spellcaster didn't get a familiar? :P

(I have to note, his Int is 28, because he worked on other stats to increase his utility in antimagic, which gets more popular in epic levels)
Perseus_Stoned
03-04-07, 02:28 PM Its not really a problem or anything, I just find it amusing that God-like beings of significant power could potentially have underlings that surpass them in intelligence. Picture a Sorcerer Intermediate Deity who constantly has to rely on his familiar for advice, since, with his intelligence in regards to the other deitys, he is mostly a figurehead for the familiars' control.
ElIsRa
03-04-07, 04:04 PM In a similar vein, I recently came up with the idea of a high-level Fighter who was totally dominated by his intelligent sword, to the point where you would play the sword instead of the man. It hinged around the character spending all their wealth improving the sword, and having a pitiful Will save. The only problem then would be whether Dominate effects trump intelligent item Ego scores...
Easy solution is having the sword grant a Protection from (some alignment) to the wielder. In that case no mind-affecting effects trump the item's Ego score.
Perseus_Stoned
03-04-07, 04:21 PM Easy solution is having the sword grant a Protection from (some alignment) to the wielder. In that case no mind-affecting effects trump the item's Ego score.

That is a beautiful use of spells, sir. Doubtless I ever would've caught that wording if it wasn't for you (although its not necessarily hidden).
bluemage55
03-04-07, 07:15 PM Note that familiar advancement generally only comes from taking straight levels in sorcerer and/or wizard, rather than prestige classes, templates, or multiclassing, so in many cases a familiar may not actually be that intelligent.
Perseus_Stoned
03-04-07, 07:58 PM Does anyone know what classes grant familiars? An odd loophole to the rules (and a liberal interpretation of RAW) is thus:

Familiar Ability Descriptions

All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative.

Supposedly one could argue that any class can pick-up the "Item Familiar" feat, therefore any class goes to your overall familiar level.

I find it odd that, except in a footnote (the one noted above) no where else does it reference that familiars go off of your "familiar-granting" class.
bluemage55
03-04-07, 09:02 PM A class that grants familiars specifies so in its description. Within the SRD and Core, this includes only the sorcerer and the wizard.

There are actually several locations in the text that specify that it is the class level that matters.

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level.

. . .

All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below.

. . .

In the special case of obtaining a familiar, both wizards and sorcerers have the same ability. A sorcerer/wizard stacks his sorcerer and wizard levels to determine the familiar’s natural armor, Intelligence score, and special abilities.

The item familiar argument is not valid. An item familiar, however similar it might be to a familiar, is not a familiar.
Perseus_Stoned
03-04-07, 09:12 PM Alright, but are there any classes outside of core, besides third party sources? I do not know of any, but I was interested if anyone else did.

There are actually several locations in the text that specify that it is the class level that matters.

I never said that it didn't, I simply pointed out that I found it amusing that I could only find one location in which it specifies the wizard/sorcerer level, (in the passage I first referenced), the rest of the time it says "Master level" which can easily be construed as all of their class levels. Thus the clearing up in the familiar ability that I also pointed out.

I do thank you for pointing out the other reference however and indeed applaud you for such clever navigation of the SRD; ironically enough I never would have looked under the overall special abilities for classes for such a ruling, instead binding myself strictly to the main familiar article.

These items gradually gain in power and sentience, and often fulfill small roles similar to those of living familiars, but sometimes they become powerful entities in their own right.

Granted this is an incredibly silly interpretation of the rules and would go against RAI, but I still say that, by RAW, it would be legitimate.
bluemage55
03-04-07, 10:32 PM Granted this is an incredibly silly interpretation of the rules and would go against RAI, but I still say that, by RAW, it would be legitimate.

Similar to living familiars does not mean that they are familiars.

It is not legitmiate by RAW.
Perseus_Stoned
03-04-07, 10:40 PM Similar to living familiars does not mean that they are familiars.

I'd agree with that, but "entitled to familiars" would could still be filled by the feat "Item Familiar" by RAW (as I believe, where you believe otherwise). As far as I see our argument hinges on interpretation of the word "familiar", of which we both have different interpretations. Since we both have expressed our viewpoints on this subject (both subjectively based on the text) and by no means do not necessarily need clarification on an argument like this, there's no need to continue this debate further.

Thank you very much for helping to address the original purpose of this thread and, if it so happens, I will greatly appreciate further instruction on other abilities I require help interpreting from you.
bluemage55
03-04-07, 10:49 PM It isn't a subject interpretation.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the term "familiar" in "entitled to familiars" extends to include item familiars. You are unable to demonstrate that, and as a result, you are incorrect.

You cannot automatically assume that simply because an item familiar has the term "familiar" in its name and is in many similar to a sorcerer/wizard familiar, that it is indeed a familiar. In the particular section that you referenced, the context indicates that it refers to sorcerer/wizard familiars.

There are many terms that are the same for different classes, such as "spells". However, within the context of the fact that these are within individual class descriptions, the reference to spells refers to the spells of htat particular class only. It is not an invitation to make up a connection with the spells of any other class.
runestar
03-05-07, 12:37 AM Or you could just take the acquire familiar feat, that would let you base your familiar advancement off your total lvs in spellcasting classes.:)
Perseus_Stoned
03-05-07, 12:44 AM Or you could just take the acquire familiar feat, that would let you base your familiar advancement off your total lvs in spellcasting classes.:)

Neat, where's this ability located?
runestar
03-05-07, 12:48 AM Complete arcane, IIRC.
ElIsRa
03-05-07, 12:53 AM Neat, where's this ability located?
Its a Feat found in Complete Arcane call Obtain Familiar.
Bernat
03-06-07, 03:29 AM In a similar vein, I recently came up with the idea of a high-level Fighter who was totally dominated by his intelligent sword, to the point where you would play the sword instead of the man. It hinged around the character spending all their wealth improving the sword, and having a pitiful Will save. The only problem then would be whether Dominate effects trump intelligent item Ego scores...OMG, this sounds so fun that I must try it! I've been fighting against my intelligent weapon's will for all my life when I could simply play the weapon :D.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perseus_Stoned 03-03-07, 08:36 PM	Given that a wizard's familiar's intelligence advances by one for every 2 wizard levels, if you play relatively far into epic levels couldn't your familiar possess a significantly higher intelligence than your own? I've never played an epic game, yet alone a wizard either, so this maybe unfounded, but is this something you'd need to be concerned about at say... EXTREMELY epic levels (maybe even three digits)?
bluemage55 03-03-07, 10:26 PM	A wizard would usually be increasing their own intelligence with their free point increase every four levels. In addition, they will probably a significant amount of wealth invested in a headband of intellect. Still, it is possible for a familiar to have higher Int. In the case of sorcerers, this is especially likely. However, is that a problem?
scienceman47 03-03-07, 11:48 PM	A sorceror frequently ends up dumber than their familier before they can cast 9th lvl spells. Its no more a danger than the fighter being in the same party as a wizard.
runestar 03-04-07, 01:28 AM	A sorceror frequently ends up dumber than their familier before they can cast 9th lvl spells. Its no more a danger than the fighter being in the same party as a wizard. It is not necessarily a bad thing. This means a familiar will have higher spellcraft and knowledge:arcana checks than the sorc...:cool:
ElIsRa 03-04-07, 03:57 AM	I've never really thought about it before.... Actually, it would be fun to switch roles once a familiar surpasses his handler in intellect. Playing from the perspective of a hyper intelligent owl familiar who has this powerful class feature called "Sorcerer"..... Just a thought.
WombleHunter 03-04-07, 11:16 AM	In a similar vein, I recently came up with the idea of a high-level Fighter who was totally dominated by his intelligent sword, to the point where you would play the sword instead of the man. It hinged around the character spending all their wealth improving the sword, and having a pitiful Will save. The only problem then would be whether Dominate effects trump intelligent item Ego scores...
Lyinginbedmon 03-04-07, 11:51 AM	Is it any wonder why my 71st ECL Wizard-based spellcaster didn't get a familiar? :P (I have to note, his Int is 28, because he worked on other stats to increase his utility in antimagic, which gets more popular in epic levels)
Perseus_Stoned 03-04-07, 02:28 PM	Its not really a problem or anything, I just find it amusing that God-like beings of significant power could potentially have underlings that surpass them in intelligence. Picture a Sorcerer Intermediate Deity who constantly has to rely on his familiar for advice, since, with his intelligence in regards to the other deitys, he is mostly a figurehead for the familiars' control.
ElIsRa 03-04-07, 04:04 PM	In a similar vein, I recently came up with the idea of a high-level Fighter who was totally dominated by his intelligent sword, to the point where you would play the sword instead of the man. It hinged around the character spending all their wealth improving the sword, and having a pitiful Will save. The only problem then would be whether Dominate effects trump intelligent item Ego scores... Easy solution is having the sword grant a Protection from (some alignment) to the wielder. In that case no mind-affecting effects trump the item's Ego score.
Perseus_Stoned 03-04-07, 04:21 PM	Easy solution is having the sword grant a Protection from (some alignment) to the wielder. In that case no mind-affecting effects trump the item's Ego score. That is a beautiful use of spells, sir. Doubtless I ever would've caught that wording if it wasn't for you (although its not necessarily hidden).
bluemage55 03-04-07, 07:15 PM	Note that familiar advancement generally only comes from taking straight levels in sorcerer and/or wizard, rather than prestige classes, templates, or multiclassing, so in many cases a familiar may not actually be that intelligent.
Perseus_Stoned 03-04-07, 07:58 PM	Does anyone know what classes grant familiars? An odd loophole to the rules (and a liberal interpretation of RAW) is thus: Familiar Ability Descriptions All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative. Supposedly one could argue that any class can pick-up the "Item Familiar" feat, therefore any class goes to your overall familiar level. I find it odd that, except in a footnote (the one noted above) no where else does it reference that familiars go off of your "familiar-granting" class.
bluemage55 03-04-07, 09:02 PM	A class that grants familiars specifies so in its description. Within the SRD and Core, this includes only the sorcerer and the wizard. There are actually several locations in the text that specify that it is the class level that matters. Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level. . . . All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. . . . In the special case of obtaining a familiar, both wizards and sorcerers have the same ability. A sorcerer/wizard stacks his sorcerer and wizard levels to determine the familiar’s natural armor, Intelligence score, and special abilities. The item familiar argument is not valid. An item familiar, however similar it might be to a familiar, is not a familiar.
Perseus_Stoned 03-04-07, 09:12 PM	Alright, but are there any classes outside of core, besides third party sources? I do not know of any, but I was interested if anyone else did. There are actually several locations in the text that specify that it is the class level that matters. I never said that it didn't, I simply pointed out that I found it amusing that I could only find one location in which it specifies the wizard/sorcerer level, (in the passage I first referenced), the rest of the time it says "Master level" which can easily be construed as all of their class levels. Thus the clearing up in the familiar ability that I also pointed out. I do thank you for pointing out the other reference however and indeed applaud you for such clever navigation of the SRD; ironically enough I never would have looked under the overall special abilities for classes for such a ruling, instead binding myself strictly to the main familiar article. These items gradually gain in power and sentience, and often fulfill small roles similar to those of living familiars, but sometimes they become powerful entities in their own right. Granted this is an incredibly silly interpretation of the rules and would go against RAI, but I still say that, by RAW, it would be legitimate.
bluemage55 03-04-07, 10:32 PM	Granted this is an incredibly silly interpretation of the rules and would go against RAI, but I still say that, by RAW, it would be legitimate. Similar to living familiars does not mean that they are familiars. It is not legitmiate by RAW.
Perseus_Stoned 03-04-07, 10:40 PM	Similar to living familiars does not mean that they are familiars. I'd agree with that, but "entitled to familiars" would could still be filled by the feat "Item Familiar" by RAW (as I believe, where you believe otherwise). As far as I see our argument hinges on interpretation of the word "familiar", of which we both have different interpretations. Since we both have expressed our viewpoints on this subject (both subjectively based on the text) and by no means do not necessarily need clarification on an argument like this, there's no need to continue this debate further. Thank you very much for helping to address the original purpose of this thread and, if it so happens, I will greatly appreciate further instruction on other abilities I require help interpreting from you.
bluemage55 03-04-07, 10:49 PM	It isn't a subject interpretation. The burden of proof is on you to show that the term "familiar" in "entitled to familiars" extends to include item familiars. You are unable to demonstrate that, and as a result, you are incorrect. You cannot automatically assume that simply because an item familiar has the term "familiar" in its name and is in many similar to a sorcerer/wizard familiar, that it is indeed a familiar. In the particular section that you referenced, the context indicates that it refers to sorcerer/wizard familiars. There are many terms that are the same for different classes, such as "spells". However, within the context of the fact that these are within individual class descriptions, the reference to spells refers to the spells of htat particular class only. It is not an invitation to make up a connection with the spells of any other class.
runestar 03-05-07, 12:37 AM	Or you could just take the acquire familiar feat, that would let you base your familiar advancement off your total lvs in spellcasting classes.:)
Perseus_Stoned 03-05-07, 12:44 AM	Or you could just take the acquire familiar feat, that would let you base your familiar advancement off your total lvs in spellcasting classes.:) Neat, where's this ability located?
runestar 03-05-07, 12:48 AM	Complete arcane, IIRC.
ElIsRa 03-05-07, 12:53 AM	Neat, where's this ability located? Its a Feat found in Complete Arcane call Obtain Familiar.
Bernat 03-06-07, 03:29 AM	In a similar vein, I recently came up with the idea of a high-level Fighter who was totally dominated by his intelligent sword, to the point where you would play the sword instead of the man. It hinged around the character spending all their wealth improving the sword, and having a pitiful Will save. The only problem then would be whether Dominate effects trump intelligent item Ego scores...OMG, this sounds so fun that I must try it! I've been fighting against my intelligent weapon's will for all my life when I could simply play the weapon :D.