Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 11-28-07, 02:11 AM	“I wasn’t always as I am now—lost, broken, unloved. There was a time when I was queen. Not a queen; The Crimson Queen. I had no husband and none claimed mastery over me. Of course a mortal like you wouldn’t remember that time; my children the immortals hardly remember it any more.” “Well I don’t expect you to believe me, why should you? But seeing as you’re stuck here with me we may as well pass the time swapping fantastical tales, eh? Oh, you’re pretending to be interested, how kind of you!” “Well as I said I was the Crimson Queen and I was the first mortal to learn true magic. This was my power and how I ruled in peace and prosperity for so long. I stole the secret of healing from the gods and taught it to my best students. Of course, the gods and their sycophant priests didn’t like me but what could they do? Once my students and I began healing my subjects, they started to turn from the gods and their lies. Sometimes an attempt would be made on my throne, on my life, but I was prepared for them. As the priests lost themselves in the labyrinth of their gods’ lies, I exiled the sycophants to my own labyrinths of even better design. I always left them a way out, but none ever escaped.” “Of course, all good things must come to an end. Disaster struck in the form of that insanity that weak folk call love. My best student fell in love with a man, not just any man, a priest of a god of knives and travels—who can remember the names of such unimportant spirits? And my student, she was the pride of my life though I can’t for the life of me remember her name anymore.” “Fate being what it is, this student of mine—this girl and her lover made an attempt on my life. They would have succeeded, had the lover’s master not become involved. I suppose he didn’t know his god as well as he thought, for the god took direct control of his pawn which broke some divine agreement. The pawn at least was slain in the gods’ wrath, I saw his face in a halo of his master’s blades—no doubt I was meant to share his fate, but I was too clever. I whisked my student away to a safe hold until the gods’ rage subsided and then returned to my throne to assess the damage.” “Nothing irreplaceable was lost, though when we found the lover’s body my student fell into hysterics and swore that she would find him again. When I forbid her from following such a fallacious path, she would only cling to the dead shell of her lover and weep. I had to exile her to a labyrinth—she had become lost and needed to find herself again. She sat in that labyrinth for a year and on the anniversary of her betrayal, she found her way out as I knew she would.” “She came to me—she was still tortured, but now she was also enraged and told me that she would cast me from my throne and cast my thrown down into the rubble. I knew that I had to kill her, but when I cast the spell I realized my mistake. Wicked blades sprang from her face in memory of her lover’s death; she wore nothing but a simple gray robe but none of my spells could touch her—she had found divinity in that labyrinth. Right before my eyes and the eyes of all my subjects she ripped my royal city from the earth and wrapped it around itself as the world I knew disappeared beyond its walls, she disintegrated my throne before my eyes, she cursed the gods for their wrath and then she called out to her lover in a voice beyond imagination—she would be waiting for her lover’s return for however long it took him to find his way to her. At the sound of her voice, this voice beyond divinity, I was banished to my own labyrinth—the very labyrinth in which we sit now.” “There is no escape. I have tried to escape many times, but the Lady of Pain knows no mercy for those who lose their way in this labyrinth.” PS: Yeah I ripped off DF with the title, but it got your attention didn't it? Btw, is it coming back?
Tequila_Sunrise 11-28-07, 02:11 AM	The recent thread about statting out the Lady combined with a recent epiphany regarding the D&D demographic made me decide to actually stat out my favorite D&D icon of all time. I used the ELH but only used Deities and Demigods for very vague guidelines, as I don’t think anyone takes that book totally seriously. My way of statting divine beings is probably on the low end of the power scale among DMs who do likewise—I don’t use DR, SDAs or innate divine qualities. Instead, being divine simply means that you have 41 + class levels. At 41st level and each level thereafter, I give characters a Divine Power which can be anything from an enhancement bonus to an ability score to a totally unique power related to the deity’s portfolio. In my mind, the Lady is the pinnacle of power in D&D—Takhisis, Ao, the Old Ones, the alien creatures of the Far Realm—none should match the Lady in power. Though again, many will probably read my stats and say ‘Huh? She’s only a 60th level wizard, and not even optimized, wtf?!’ Well what can I say, I’ve never been a big optimizer but if you have any suggestions I’d love to hear them. The Lady of Pain Female Human Wizard 60 Init +49; Senses Greater Arcane Sight, Dark Vision, Low Light Vision, True Seeing; Listen +21, Spot +21 Languages Common AC 101 (+21 Dex, +30 armor, +20 deflection, +20 natural), Touch 51, Flat Footed 80 hp 1560 (60 HD) ; Fast Healing 30 Fort +67 Ref +67 Will +73 Speed 30 Melee Touch +51 Ranged Ranged Touch +51 Base Attack +30; Grapple +51 Spells Known Epic (6/day; DC 49) – epic foresight, flay (DC 84), Lady’s labyrinth, Lady’s wit, true contingent resurrection Spells Prepared 14 (5; DC 53) – 13 (6; DC 52) – 12 (6; DC 51) – 11 (6; DC 50) – 10 (6; DC 49) -- 9 (14; DC 48) -- 8 (14; DC 47) -- 7 (14; DC 46) -- 6 (14; DC 45) -- 5 (15; DC 44) -- 4 (15; DC 43) -- 3 (15; DC 42) -- 2 (15; DC 41) -- 1 (16; DC 40) -- 0 (8; DC 39) – Abilities Str 53, Dex 53, Con 53, Int 68, Wis 53, Cha 53 Feats Empower Spell, Energy Admixture (acid), Energy Substitution (acid), Enhance Spell, Epic Spell Casting, Eschew Materials, Heighten Spell, Improved Counter Spell, Improved Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Metamagic (3), Improved Spell Capacity (5), Improved Toughness, Maximize Spell, Multispell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Superior Initiative, Twin Spell Skills Concentration +84, Knowledge (arcana) +92, Listen +21, Spell Craft +128, Spot +21 Possessions Halo of Blades Spell Book All Divine Powers Divine Armor The Lady of Pain gains an armor bonus to her AC equal to half her level. Divine Charisma The Lady of Pain gains an enhancement bonus to her Charisma equal to half her level. Divine Constitution The Lady of Pain gains an enhancement bonus to her Constitution equal to half her level. Divine Reflection The Lady of Pain gains a deflection bonus to her AC equal to a third of her level. Divine Dexterity The Lady of Pain gains an enhancement bonus to her Dexterity equal to half her level. Divine Initiative The Lady of Pain always goes first in initiative order. If other combatants also have Divine Initiative, she gains a bonus to her initiative equal to a third of her level. Divine Intelligence The Lady of Pain gains an enhancement bonus to her Intelligence equal to half her level. Divine Natural Armor The Lady of Pain gains an natural armor bonus to her AC equal to half her level. Divine Rejuvenation The Lady of Pain gains fast healing 5 per 10 levels. If killed, the Lady of Pain simply reforms after 10d10 days. Divine Resistance The Lady of Pain gains a resistance bonus to her saves equal to a third of her level. Divine Shield The Lady of Pain can create a personal barrier that grants a number of benefits. First, it grants epic damage reduction equal to 5 per 10 levels and immunity to critical hits. Second, it grants spell resistance 11 + level. Third, it grants resistance to acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic equal to 5 per 10 levels. Finally, the Lady of Pain cannot fail a save on a natural 1 while protected by Divine Shield. Activating this ability is a free action and lasts for 10 minutes. The Lady of Pain can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + Charisma modifier. Divine Sight The Lady of Pain gains the continuous benefits of greater arcane sight, dark vision, low light vision and true seeing Divine Skill Focus (Spell Craft) The Lady of Pain gains a competence bonus to Spell Craft checks equal to half her level. Divine Strength The Lady of Pain gains an enhancement bonus to her Strength equal to half her level. Divine Wisdom The Lady of Pain gains an enhancement bonus to her Wisdom equal to half her level. Divine Wizardry The Lady of Pain doubles her spells per day from levels 0 to 9. Lady’s Blades A number of times per day equal to 3 + Charisma modifier, the Lady of Pain can create a unique force effect. This effect takes the form of a ray of slashing force blades which requires a ranged touch attack to hit and has a range of 400 ft. + 40 ft./level. A target hit by the ray takes 1d6 points of force damage per level. Additionally, a target hit by the ray is subject to an effect similar to greater dispel magic except that it affects any nonpermanent effect and has no maximum dispel bonus. Magical Austerity The Lady of Pain needs no verbal, somatic, material components or foci to cast non-epic spells. Realm Mastery The Lady of Pain instantly knows of any significant event which takes place within her realm, Sigil. Participants in a signifant event are allowed Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha modifier) to avoid direct scrutiny. Further, the Lady can create or destroy any Sigilan portal as a free action. More importantly, the Lady instantly knows of any creature who uses a portal and can choose to bar any creature she wishes from using them. Time is a River The Lady of Pain may spend a number of rounds each day equal to a third of her level as if under the effects of time stop. These rounds need not be continuous. Activating this ability is a free action. The Halo of Blades is a major artifact and is responsible for keeping Sigil cut off from the rest of the multiverse. The wearer of the Halo has the ability to block any or all inter-planar travel within a radius of 10 miles. This power can be dropped or resumed as a standard action. Aside from its primary function, the Halo grants its wearer immunity to force effects and deals 60d6 points of force damage to any creature that grapples its wearer. The Halo of Blades operates at caster level 60.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-28-07, 02:12 AM	Epic Foresight Divination Spell Craft DC: 63 Components: None Casting Time: 1 quickened action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 20 hours Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The target of this spell permanently gains the benefits of foresight. To Develop: 567,000 gp; 12 days; 22,680 XP. Seed: foresight (DC 31). Factors: quickened casting time (+28 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC). Flay Evocation (Force) Spell Craft DC: 137 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 quickened action Range: 300 ft. Target: One creature Duration: instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The target of this spell is flayed alive by invisible blades of force. On a failed Fortitude save (DC 55 + ability bonus), a target dies. On a successfully save, a target takes 5d6 damage instead. To Develop: 1,233,000 gp; 25 days; 49,320 XP. Seed: slay (DC 25). Factors: force effect (+10 DC ad hoc), +35 save DC (+70 DC), quickened casting time (+28 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC). Lady’s Labyrinth Conjuration (Creation) Spell Craft DC: 91 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 200 ft. (see text) Effect: A demiplane in the Ethereal Plane centered on your location Duration: Contingent until expended (instantaneous) Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You can only cast this spell while in the Ethereal Plane. Once cast, this spell creates a plane that grows at a rate of 1 foot from its center point per day up to an initial maximum of 200 feet. After it reaches this size, its growth slows to 1 foot per year. The plane can contain whatever mundane objects you wish, including buildings and vegetation. Special or expensive substances such as mithril and gems cannot be created. As the plane’s borders expand, so do the original objects within. For example, the Lady often uses this spell to create her famous labyrinths—as the demiplane grows, so does the labyrinth’s walls and corridors. Further, once a Lady’s Labyrinth is created it can be directed to entrap a creature as a standard action. In order to entrap a creature, the caster must expend another epic spell slot and be able to see the creature via mundane means or divination magic. A creature targeted by the entrapment effect gets a Will save (20 + ability bonus) to avoid entrapment. To Develop: 819,000 gp; 17 days; 32,760 XP. Seed: genesis (DC 31), transport (27). Factors: buildings and vegetation (+25 DC ad hoc), interplanar travel (+4 DC), transport unwilling creatures (+4 DC). Lady’s Wit Transmutation Spell Craft DC: 115 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 20 hours Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The target of this spell gains a +50 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. To Develop: 1,035,000 gp; 21 days; 41,400 XP. Seed: fortify (DC 17). Factors: +49 enhancements (+98 DC). True Contingent Resurrection Conjuration (Healing) Spell Craft DC: 118 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 quickened action Range: Touch Target: Touched creature Duration: Contingent until expended (instantaneous) Saving Throw: None (see text) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell immediately restores life to a dead creature, as if true resurrection had been cast on it. To Develop: 1,062,000; 22 days; 42,480 XP. Seed: life (DC 31). Factors: activates when subject is slain (+25 DC), quickened casting time (+28 DC), quickened delay period (+28 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC), arcane variant (+2 DC).
thorofasgard13 11-28-07, 01:20 PM	In my mind, the Lady is the pinnacle of power in D&D—Takhisis, Ao, the Old Ones, the alien creatures of the Far Realm—none should match the Lady in power. Though again, many will probably read my stats and say ‘Huh? She’s only a 60th level wizard, and not even optimized, wtf?!’ Well what can I say, I’ve never been a big optimizer but if you have any suggestions I’d love to hear them. What do you mean Ao should be below her power. Sure she can stop deities from interfering in sigil or even entering it, but Ao can turn all the gods into mortals or even slay them outright... no matter what dimension they are in.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-28-07, 02:02 PM	It's a matter of taste. Ao and the Lady are both supposed to be above the gods in power and as there is no way to draw a direct comparison between the two...like I said, it comes down to taste. It can be argued that since the Lady has never displayed power outside of Sigil, her power must be localized. It could be argued that since the Lady has only slain one god and never debased nor raised a god, her power must be lesser. But then, it can also be argued that Ao is localized to the Realms and that the Lady simply has no interest in debasing or raising gods.
Lord_of_Vain 11-28-07, 04:12 PM	Ha, so some people do want to stat her, interesting.
thorofasgard13 11-28-07, 09:19 PM	It's a matter of taste. Ao and the Lady are both supposed to be above the gods in power and as there is no way to draw a direct comparison between the two...like I said, it comes down to taste. It can be argued that since the Lady has never displayed power outside of Sigil, her power must be localized. It could be argued that since the Lady has only slain one god and never debased nor raised a god, her power must be lesser. But then, it can also be argued that Ao is localized to the Realms and that the Lady simply has no interest in debasing or raising gods. Very true. Let them both remain unstatted, or do like others and give them stats but make them level equivalent of 500 or 1000 so they are basically invulnerable to all but over-deities like themselves.
PrinceOfTheVoid 11-28-07, 09:25 PM	Even if you do that though, we'll never reach a consensus for exactly at what strata of power the Lady should be at. In the end, it all goes back to the indiviudal DM and his opinions on the matter.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-29-07, 01:27 AM	Even if you do that though, we'll never reach a consensus for exactly at what strata of power the Lady should be at. In the end, it all goes back to the indiviudal DM and his opinions on the matter. Maybe in 4e, WotC will actually stat out the Lady and Ao. Then instead of having pointless arguments about whose opinion is more right than everyone else's, we'll have pointless arguments about whether WotC's stats accurately depict the super powered icons that DMs will never use. :rolleyes:
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-29-07, 09:41 AM	What do you mean Ao should be below her power. Sure she can stop deities from interfering in sigil or even entering it, but Ao can turn all the gods into mortals or even slay them outright... no matter what dimension they are in. Ao is the overpower of Toril. He is only omnipotent within the Realms. Also, well...I don't really like the stats. Saying the Lady is a mortal is a very big assumption. And she doesn't display any signs of wizardry beyond abilities which may be spell-like or like SDAs. Your origin story doesn't account for her affinity with Sigil, either. And if she is a mortal, how could she have been in Sigil when it was discovered by the fiends, predating mortal life for hundreds of thousands of years? (That came from Hellbound, by the way)
NalarTheQuestioner 11-29-07, 01:04 PM	Your origin story doesn't account for her affinity with Sigil, either. And if she is a mortal, how could she have been in Sigil when it was discovered by the fiends, predating mortal life for hundreds of thousands of years? (That came from Hellbound, by the way) I believe that the city was covered in the origin story offered, but I would be curious as well to hear an origin that explains the reference taken from Hellbound. Of course, maybe the fiends were just lying...or maybe the Lady of Pain wasn't human. We're just projecting, or she assumes the form of one of the most pervasive species in the multiverse. There was an interesting article posted on The Mimir long ago that postulated that the demons' reptilian form lend credence to lizardmen-type entities being the first sentient beings in the multiverse. That the forms of their nightmares, when coalesced into physical existence took on the visages of the demons as we know them today. If that is the case, could we perhaps see a gradual evolution of demonic phenotype into dominantly humanoid form as mammalian humanoids take over the primes?
Tequila_Sunrise 11-29-07, 06:16 PM	Also, well...I don't really like the stats. Saying the Lady is a mortal is a very big assumption. And she doesn't display any signs of wizardry beyond abilities which may be spell-like or like SDAs. Your origin story doesn't account for her affinity with Sigil, either. And if she is a mortal, how could she have been in Sigil when it was discovered by the fiends, predating mortal life for hundreds of thousands of years? (That came from Hellbound, by the way) I'm not familiar with Hellbound, but I will say that the broken woman never actually says that she or her student are mortal. Anyway, I'm open to suggestions for her stats. What would you stat her as if not a wizard? I chose wizard because it's basically the ultimate of ultimate powers in d&d and I felt like twinking out an insanely high level character. (Yeah, I'm not very good at twinking but there it is...)
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-29-07, 06:36 PM	I'm not familiar with Hellbound, but I will say that the broken woman never actually says that she or her student are mortal. Anyway, I'm open to suggestions for her stats. What would you stat her as if not a wizard? I chose wizard because it's basically the ultimate of ultimate powers in d&d and I felt like twinking out an insanely high level character. (Yeah, I'm not very good at twinking but there it is...) You never say that, but there's the Lady and the words 'Human Wizard'. I wouldn't give stats to her at all. Not because I'm a rabid 'OMG k33p teh mYts3ry!' Planscape fan, but because giving her physical form goes against my ideas on her: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-509921
The Serge7 11-29-07, 07:10 PM	PS: Yeah I ripped off DF with the title, but it got your attention didn't it? Btw, is it coming back? First, I appreciate the acknowledgement of your title's origin. Thank you very, very much. Second, yes, Dicefreaks proper will be back in the not too distant future.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-30-07, 12:16 AM	You never say that, but there's the Lady and the words 'Human Wizard'. I wouldn't give stats to her at all. Not because I'm a rabid 'OMG k33p teh mYts3ry!' Planscape fan, but because giving her physical form goes against my ideas on her: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-509921 That's a very creative idea, though I don't think I like the idea that the Lady is more a thing than a person. My story could use some work though, not because it might clash with previous sources, but because it just doesn't do her justice. I definately rushed myself writing it. Second, yes, Dicefreaks proper will be back in the not too distant future. Glad to hear it!
Kamin_Majere 11-30-07, 08:12 PM	Lady of Pain Commaner: 1200 DvR: 100 Stats = Win Trying to stat something like The Lady, Ao or even to a lesser degree DL's Chaos is deffinatly statting the unstattable. I wouldnt even begin to know where to start. Even taking Dice Freaks rules on Deities and Cosmic Being Creation its hard to conceptualize an entity that can auto kill a greater Deity with but the passing of her shadow. Vecna shook the multiverse when he even attempted to possibally maybe consider one day to try to take her on, and he failed even then. She would probably have to use the Immortal Handbook rules to stat her. The Flaying and Cages leave no mistake. Once she attempts them you are either dead or mazed. There are no saves and no second chances. To put her into a D&D cosmology you're looking at a DvR or at least 40 and more than likely 100+ due to the sheer power she can unlease when necessary. Really she doesnt even have class features. Besides being an ultimate force of Order in Sigil and her abilities to flay and maze people shes never really even done anything else besides float around and be scary... really really scary...i mean dont look her in the eyes scary... i mean wailing and gnashing of teeth scary... i mean (you get the point:P ) If i had to actually stat her out it would probably be based on a 100 HD outsider with a DvR near 40 (Ao being the same unless he was outside the realms and then with a DvR 30-35, and Chaos with just a simple DvR 21) Use the Dice Freaks Deity and Cosmic Being creation rules from there and go wild (though you might have to break the stat caps to get all of her points spent) And Flay and maze shouldnt have saves. Its a bummer to get the powers used on you, but your pretty much hosed if you've actually ticked her off enough to use them.
thorofasgard13 11-30-07, 09:34 PM	Trying to stat something like The Lady, Ao or even to a lesser degree DL's Chaos is deffinatly statting the unstattable. The Flaying and Cages leave no mistake. Once she attempts them you are either dead or mazed. There are no saves and no second chances. If i had to actually stat her out it would probably be based on a 100 HD outsider with a DvR near 40 (Ao being the same unless he was outside the realms and then with a DvR 30-35, and Chaos with just a simple DvR 21) Use the Dice Freaks Deity and Cosmic Being creation rules from there and go wild (though you might have to break the stat caps to get all of her points spent) And Flay and maze shouldnt have saves. Its a bummer to get the powers used on you, but your pretty much hosed if you've actually ticked her off enough to use them. I like this:thumbsup:
The Serge7 11-30-07, 09:34 PM	As an aside, Dicefreaks has no intention of statting The Lady of Pain. Any "DF" versions of Her Serenity are often just folks playing around with the concept and not "serious" attempts (with the possible exception of Kain Darkwind, who did a pretty good job... But then, he wasn't using DF material for his build).
Tequila_Sunrise 12-01-07, 09:11 AM	To put her into a D&D cosmology you're looking at a DvR or at least 40 and more than likely 100+ due to the sheer power she can unlease when necessary. Divine Rank 40, eh? :eek: I've never heard of anyone mention that DR 26+ even existed. A lot like ability scores 26+ in 2e... As an aside, Dicefreaks has no intention of statting The Lady of Pain. Any "DF" versions of Her Serenity are often just folks playing around with the concept and not "serious" attempts (with the possible exception of Kain Darkwind, who did a pretty good job... But then, he wasn't using DF material for his build). I don't think I could ever seriously stat out the Lady either, but if I were to actually stat her for use in a game I wouldn't use the ELH's byzantine rules.
Kamin_Majere 12-01-07, 11:10 AM	Divine Rank 40, eh? :eek: I've never heard of anyone mention that DR 26+ even existed. A lot like ability scores 26+ in 2e... Yeah its a bit excessive seeming, but i just cant really figure out the power level of a being that can one shot a greater god, all of his followers (with those that didnt die getting mazed); and all with out really trying... I mean her shadow did it all. I figure somewhere around DvR 40-50 would be about right for a being of that power. 2nd edition had alot of caps in things that were seemingly weird...but if you had a 26 INT it actually did something besides be a +8 modifier. So i guess it was worth it in that system. Speaking of Kain, i get the DvR rating from an old post of his (i believe it was part of his altarnate world). He took the Dice Freaks level cap (50 for mortals) and applied it to Gods making DvR 21+ basically "epic Gods" It was a really intresting concept. Nothing even remotely offical but an intresting concept.
Kain_Darkwind 12-01-07, 02:16 PM	Lady of Pain Commaner: 1200 DvR: 100 Stats = Win Trying to stat something like The Lady, Ao or even to a lesser degree DL's Chaos is deffinatly statting the unstattable. I wouldnt even begin to know where to start. Even taking Dice Freaks rules on Deities and Cosmic Being Creation its hard to conceptualize an entity that can auto kill a greater Deity with but the passing of her shadow. If that's her power in your campaign, that's well and good, but the Lady of Pain has never killed a greater deity with her shadow. It is unknown how Aosker was killed by her. Vecna shook the multiverse when he even attempted to possibally maybe consider one day to try to take her on, and he failed even then. She would probably have to use the Immortal Handbook rules to stat her. The Flaying and Cages leave no mistake. Once she attempts them you are either dead or mazed. There are no saves and no second chances. I disagree. Let us say the DC was 100. Assuming Aosker was around the power level of Zeus from Deities and Demigods (and I personally don't think he was) he can manage to achieve DC 70 (and always does due to always 20 god rules) on his best save. For the schmucks in Sigil, there is no practical difference between a DC 100 and a no save ability. Assuming of course, that any serious epic game drops the 'auto failure/auto success' of Nat 1 & 20. To put her into a D&D cosmology you're looking at a DvR or at least 40 and more than likely 100+ due to the sheer power she can unlease when necessary. You're making up big numbers. With no conception laid out for what a DvR 21 power can achieve, you cannot say with any certainty that she needs DvR 40 or 30 or 25. Let alone 100. If DvR 21 overdeities are to gods what normal gods are to mortals, it is completely possible that a simple DvR 21 being could rearrange the universe to their whims. And the Lady of Pain has not demonstrated anywhere near the power you are ascribing to her...she's killed exactly 1 greater god, and managed to beat and expel Vecna who had the power of a greater god. That's not even enough evidence to support definite overpower yet. Set killed a greater god. Fenrir and Kezef permanently maimed a greater god. I'm reasonably sure Loki has killed or will kill a greater god as well. None of these entities are overpowers, why does the Lady of Pain need to be? Really she doesnt even have class features. Besides being an ultimate force of Order in Sigil and her abilities to flay and maze people shes never really even done anything else besides float around and be scary... really really scary...i mean dont look her in the eyes scary... i mean wailing and gnashing of teeth scary... i mean (you get the point:P ) I agree. She's never cast spells, I wouldn't stat her as a wizard. If i had to actually stat her out it would probably be based on a 100 HD outsider with a DvR near 40 (Ao being the same unless he was outside the realms and then with a DvR 30-35, and Chaos with just a simple DvR 21) Use the Dice Freaks Deity and Cosmic Being creation rules from there and go wild (though you might have to break the stat caps to get all of her points spent) I can get behind 100HD, but again, no DvR 40 unless you bother to go and define what DvR 21 through 40 actually means. It is my personal definition of overpower that Ao falls around the DvR 24 area. An Ao that can strip gods of their divinity and is completely dominant over them. And Flay and maze shouldnt have saves. Its a bummer to get the powers used on you, but your pretty much hosed if you've actually ticked her off enough to use them. Again, no. The powers have NEVER been used on even a god (flay, I don't know for sure about maze), let alone an overgod. There is no reason to make them no save. If you go with your 100HD build, you have a base DC of 60 for any special attack she makes. Let's just for a moment put her at 'merely' DvR 20. That's DC 80, before you add any ability modifiers. A Charisma of 40 will bring the DC up to 95. No creature in the ELH or Deities and Demigods books would be capable of saving against it. To them, it would be the same as 'no save', but it would have a save.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-01-07, 03:12 PM	I agree. She's never cast spells, I wouldn't stat her as a wizard. What would you stat her as?
Kain_Darkwind 12-01-07, 03:59 PM	What would you stat her as? An 80HD outsider. Str 30, Dex 50, Con 47, Int 55, Wis 59, Cha 55 +30 on rank checks. ;) Barring that, a paladin.
Kamin_Majere 12-01-07, 04:41 PM	If that's her power in your campaign, that's well and good, but the Lady of Pain has never killed a greater deity with her shadow. It is unknown how Aosker was killed by her. I personally keep her out of my plane hopping campaigns. I find it hard to use Deus ex Machana to explain things... and she deus ex personified. As to how Aosker was killed... its not known, but shes never done anything offensive except maze/flay so i just assumed she flayed him. If not that would make stating her and quantifing her alot easier because it would have shown some of her other abilities I disagree. Let us say the DC was 100. Assuming Aosker was around the power level of Zeus from Deities and Demigods (and I personally don't think he was) he can manage to achieve DC 70 (and always does due to always 20 god rules) on his best save. For the schmucks in Sigil, there is no practical difference between a DC 100 and a no save ability. Assuming of course, that any serious epic game drops the 'auto failure/auto success' of Nat 1 & 20. Fair enough, and i see that point. Its just that there has never been someone to escape either of the abilities (save "maybe" vecna). I actually have converted all of my deities away from the WotC stat blocks into the DF ones. Once you add in epic abilities and divine ranks together you get alot more power out of the gods and DC 100 and no save have a vastly diffrent relationship. I realise that its all according to what power level of deities that people use in their campaigns, so this is really a flexable topic You're making up big numbers. With no conception laid out for what a DvR 21 power can achieve, you cannot say with any certainty that she needs DvR 40 or 30 or 25. Let alone 100. Werent you the one that came up with the "epic god" concept that made DvR a more liner concept (if not i'm confusing you with someone else and i appoligize) But DvR 21 to me says they get a bit more power than DvR20 and gain the benifit of no longer requiring mortal worship to maintain power. I realize thats just my take on it so about as offical as any other home brew rule. If DvR 21 overdeities are to gods what normal gods are to mortals, it is completely possible that a simple DvR 21 being could rearrange the universe to their whims. True, by the rules thats true, and if there was a way to conceptualize that then The lady and AO could just be DvR 21 entities and "pwn" everything lesser than themselves And the Lady of Pain has not demonstrated anywhere near the power you are ascribing to her...she's killed exactly 1 greater god, and managed to beat and expel Vecna who had the power of a greater god. That's not even enough evidence to support definite overpower yet. Set killed a greater god. Fenrir and Kezef permanently maimed a greater god. I'm reasonably sure Loki has killed or will kill a greater god as well. None of these entities are overpowers, why does the Lady of Pain need to be? I'll give you that, but still according to all information on her shes as close to unassaliable as can be in D&D. Whether or not shes truely and over power would come down to defining what abilities an over power gets and finding something besides flay//maze that she does. I still think of her as something that even the gods fear. So supremely powerful entity or over power it works out about the same I agree. She's never cast spells, I wouldn't stat her as a wizard. :) we can at lease agree on something lol I can get behind 100HD, but again, no DvR 40 unless you bother to go and define what DvR 21 through 40 actually means. It is my personal definition of overpower that Ao falls around the DvR 24 area. An Ao that can strip gods of their divinity and is completely dominant over them. 2 things agreed on. And yeah i agree you would have to define DvR 21+ to say for sure, but i like things moving more liner in power level so while DvR 21 is more powerful than DvR 20, i dont think it should mean that large of a jump. I know cannon says other wise, it just seems so thoughless to me and gives them an out by just saying DvR 21 = win Again, no. The powers have NEVER been used on even a god (flay, I don't know for sure about maze), let alone an overgod. There is no reason to make them no save. If you go with your 100HD build, you have a base DC of 60 for any special attack she makes. Let's just for a moment put her at 'merely' DvR 20. That's DC 80, before you add any ability modifiers. A Charisma of 40 will bring the DC up to 95. No creature in the ELH or Deities and Demigods books would be capable of saving against it. To them, it would be the same as 'no save', but it would have a save. True, but again; if you add DvR with Epic abilities then you get entities that do treat DC 95 as a vastly diffrent thing than a no save ability. And as to her never using her abilities on gods... i again just assumed she flayed the portal master as she seems unable to do anything other than that, maze and float around being scary. What would you stat her as? Honestly i wouldnt give her class levels at all. Shes more of a generic uber outsider/abomination/etc than anything with class levels. Though a 1200 class level commoner still seems fun :P
Kain_Darkwind 12-01-07, 05:06 PM	I personally keep her out of my plane hopping campaigns. I find it hard to use Deus ex Machana to explain things... and she deus ex personified. As to how Aosker was killed... its not known, but shes never done anything offensive except maze/flay so i just assumed she flayed him. If not that would make stating her and quantifing her alot easier because it would have shown some of her other abilities The official take is that he just ended up on the Astral, dead. If you search for Lady of Pain posts by Shemeska or Ripvanwormer, you'll get the full story, but I'm almost 100% positive it had nothing to do with flaying. Fair enough, and i see that point. Its just that there has never been someone to escape either of the abilities (save "maybe" vecna). I actually have converted all of my deities away from the WotC stat blocks into the DF ones. Once you add in epic abilities and divine ranks together you get alot more power out of the gods and DC 100 and no save have a vastly diffrent relationship. I realise that its all according to what power level of deities that people use in their campaigns, so this is really a flexable topic Absolutely, but I think you'll find that even DF deities don't hit DC 100 like chump change. Especially since we took away their auto-20. Werent you the one that came up with the "epic god" concept that made DvR a more liner concept (if not i'm confusing you with someone else and i appoligize) But DvR 21 to me says they get a bit more power than DvR20 and gain the benifit of no longer requiring mortal worship to maintain power. I realize thats just my take on it so about as offical as any other home brew rule. Yes, that was me. I used 50 divine ranks, with 50 being a true omnipotent being. However, that cosmological take also includes different realities that are unobtainable from the D&D universe, that play by different rules. (My nod and wink to other gaming systems, be they table top or video games) The largest DvR in my mind that would deal with the DnD universe would be DvR 30, perhaps DvR 35. The ultimate personification of Evil (or Good, Chaos or Law) would be DvR 28 in my system. An overgod like Ao clocks in around DvR 24. And that gives him all the power he needs to punk his entire pantheon on Aber-Toril. I'm not sure where I'd put the Lady in that scale. I know it wouldn't be 40. I'm not even sure it would be 21. You don't need to be DvR 21 to punk greater gods. You could be a more powerful greater god. Or something altogether different. My Lady gets a bonus of +30 on rank checks, which puts her on even ground with a DvR 30 being. But it doesn't make her a DvR 30 being...just capable of interacting with one on somewhat even terms. I'm not arguing you can't put the Lady at DvR 40. Far from it. I'm simply saying you need to define DvR 40 before you put her there. I did define DvR 40, and she doesn't belong there in my world. Using my definitions, I'd be surprised if she was there in anyone's world. If you had to give her class levels, the following classes would not give her special abilities that she has not demonstrated. Fighter, commoner, aristocrat, warrior
thorofasgard13 12-01-07, 09:44 PM	I have an Idea, I'm gonna say shes a truly ancient Leshay 120 outsider HD with 40 levels in aristocrat gained from lording over a realm for a long time. And a Divine Rank of 18-20 and special abilities that are linked directly to her realm of sigil that basically make her an over-deity while there.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-01-07, 10:58 PM	...a paladin. Leshay...aristocrat...Divine Rank of 18-20... Yes, all of those things together! That's my Lady of Pain! ;)
Taeldrin Laesrash 12-02-07, 12:22 AM	Yes, that was me. I used 50 divine ranks, with 50 being a true omnipotent being. However, that cosmological take also includes different realities that are unobtainable from the D&D universe, that play by different rules. (My nod and wink to other gaming systems, be they table top or video games) Just out of curiosity, what systems were you thinking of? I'm thinking of the Marvel multiverse, but even DvR 40 seems like a bit of stretch when I compare some of those characters to the greater deities in the D&Dverse. I have an Idea, I'm gonna say shes a truly ancient Leshay 120 outsider HD with 40 levels in aristocrat gained from lording over a realm for a long time. And a Divine Rank of 18-20 and special abilities that are linked directly to her realm of sigil that basically make her an over-deity while there. It doesn't make sense...she doesn't make sense. It works great!
Kain_Darkwind 12-02-07, 12:49 AM	Just out of curiosity, what systems were you thinking of? I'm thinking of the Marvel multiverse, but even DvR 40 seems like a bit of stretch when I compare some of those characters to the greater deities in the D&Dverse. No, you have it wrong. Those systems would have their own DvR 0-20 gods, and their own Ao powered beings at DvR 24, and right up to DvR 30 just like DnD does. But stepping beyond that, and taking the piece of the cosmos that includes the Marvel universe, the Rifts universe, the Star Wars universe and the DnD universe....you have something bigger than just a Reality...you have something encompassing all Possibility. DvR 49.
thorofasgard13 12-02-07, 02:03 AM	No, you have it wrong. Those systems would have their own DvR 0-20 gods, and their own Ao powered beings at DvR 24, and right up to DvR 30 just like DnD does. But stepping beyond that, and taking the piece of the cosmos that includes the Marvel universe, the Rifts universe, the Star Wars universe and the DnD universe....you have something bigger than just a Reality...you have something encompassing all Possibility. DvR 49. Hmmm... Interesting. would you say Zurvan or the true Thoth is up there on that higher magnitude scale or who exactly were you thinking of...
Kain_Darkwind 12-02-07, 03:05 AM	Hmmm... Interesting. would you say Zurvan or the true Thoth is up there on that higher magnitude scale or who exactly were you thinking of... I know of neither of these beings, but in truth I had no specific characters named to these positions. They are theoretical positions in my cosmos, not known.