Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 08-11-07, 10:52 AM	Seriously, are there enough feats in the game to satisfy my lust for feats? I was trying to make a 30th level character but ran out of good feats to take at around level 10. Does anyone know of a decent fighter 20 build? Thanks!
aelryinth 08-11-07, 11:07 AM	Is this a troll? There's never enough epic feats slots for builds. As for f/20's...there's tons of builds going around. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706 here's one. At Epic levels, the Fighter gets more feats then anyone, and it still isn't going to satisfy your thirst for feats. Of course, spellcasters just point at the Epic Spells rules and laugh at you until their Epic opponents rip em apart, but hey, what can you do? ===Aelryinth
Loren Pechtel 08-11-07, 12:53 PM	It's not possible. You turn gay around level 25! :D
archerpwr 08-11-07, 03:15 PM	Seriously, are there enough feats in the game to satisfy my lust for feats? I was trying to make a 30th level character but ran out of good feats to take at around level 10. Does anyone know of a decent fighter 20 build? Thanks! There are fighter 20 builds (I'm fond of Caelic's Jack B Quick), but they dont measure up to what a psychic warrior/ monk/ slayer built to the same goal could accomplish. I much prefer gishes to melee class builds myself.
Asciiman 08-11-07, 03:31 PM	It's not possible. You turn gay around level 25! :D Okay... this made me laugh really hard. The absurdity is amazing.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-11-07, 07:39 PM	A 30th-level fighter is perfectly viable, particularly because they don't depend on spells or psionics. Once you've got a concept, you can take a bunch of feats to improve it. AoO fighters, in particular, have at least 30 levels of good feats to take. Eventually, though, you'll be reduced to taking Epic Prowess or Epic Tougness. Multiclass eventually.
archerpwr 08-11-07, 07:42 PM	A 30th-level fighter is perfectly viable, particularly because they don't depend on spells or psionics. Once you've got a concept, you can take a bunch of feats to improve it. AoO fighters, in particular, have at least 30 levels of good feats to take. Eventually, though, you'll be reduced to taking Epic Prowess or Epic Tougness. Multiclass eventually. Only if everyone else is stuck in an antimagic field and under a constant calm emotions effect...
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-11-07, 07:45 PM	Only if everyone else is stuck in an antimagic field and under a constant calm emotions effect... Really...A Chain Tripper with Stormguard Warrior can turn enemy attacks into damage boosts or their own devastating attacks. By 30th level they might have also invested in the Weapon Specialiation line, and can deal 120+ damage in a round, no SR or immunities attached. Look at Aelryinth's build. Deals with numerous caster-related problems, and kicks butt. Imagine what it could do with the extra feats.
archerpwr 08-11-07, 08:04 PM	Really...A Chain Tripper with Stormguard Warrior can turn enemy attacks into damage boosts or their own devastating attacks. By 30th level they might have also invested in the Weapon Specialiation line, and can deal 120+ damage in a round, no SR or immunities attached. Look at Aelryinth's build. Deals with numerous caster-related problems, and kicks butt. Imagine what it could do with the extra feats. Chain tripper-not gunna be as effective without his magic items and against anything bigger than huge gunna be out of luck (no giant size for you mr fighter) Stormgaurd Warrior-Better off using straight warblade Any fighter build (ie with lots of fighter levels) has to be extremely specialized to do anything as well as someone with more prestige classing and fewer feats. Problems with a spiked chain tripper: 1) ranged combat 2) tripping things(only so many things to help your check) 3) mobility 4) AC Problems with Aelryinth's build: 1) any time you don't start combat within five feat of an arcane spellcaster that did not take shielded casting (RoS) or improved combat casting or buff at all (shapechange anyone?) Edit: To summarize my point, take a look over at the character optimization boards. Read a couple dozen threads. Look for fighter levels past 6. They are few and far between. Those that do have 8+ either are looking for more direction becuase the charcter is already in play and screwed up, or are purely theoretical fighter twenties to show that fighter can do something well. This is because fighter levels are a bad idea past about level 2.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-11-07, 09:54 PM	CO Boards nothing. They may have the numbers, but are you talking from experience, or just repeating what they're saying? What do prestige classes offer that feats can't? What would be a 'versatile' fighter? Problems with your problems: 1. Shielded Casting requires that a spellcaster lugs around a Heavy shield. ASF? Buffs are just boosts to numbers that can nonetheless be beaten. Even if a spellcaster incurs no AoOs from spellcasting, they can be tripped and kept on the ground. Again, it's all about initiative (As it is in just about every high-level fight).
Khan the Destroyer 08-11-07, 10:12 PM	Seriously, are there enough feats in the game to satisfy my lust for feats? I was trying to make a 30th level character but ran out of good feats to take at around level 10. Does anyone know of a decent fighter 20 build? Thanks! Ran out of good feats? What type of fighter are you looking to make? Also, what books are available to you?
archerpwr 08-11-07, 10:17 PM	CO Boards nothing. They may have the numbers, but are you talking from experience, or just repeating what they're saying? What do prestige classes offer that feats can't? What would be a 'versatile' fighter? Problems with your problems: 1. Shielded Casting requires that a spellcaster lugs around a Heavy shield. ASF? Buffs are just boosts to numbers that can nonetheless be beaten. Even if a spellcaster incurs no AoOs from spellcasting, they can be tripped and kept on the ground. Again, it's all about initiative (As it is in just about every high-level fight). This is an "There is a large amount of expertise for building characters that are good at what they want to do" kind of statement. Prestige classes: feats don't scale well Versatile: Basically anything from ToB (w00t options besides full attack or a single tactic every feat is based on!), swift hunters (for archery), party friendly frenzied berserkers (for mad DPR, a good will save, and not dieing), and some mix of prestige classes and base classes for everything else (just name a goal and I can name a class better for it). ASF: mithral, twighlight, and quite a few other things Buffs: When the fighter is large and the mage is collosal tripping just doesn't work Initiative: foresight+celerity solves that problem if we really want to discuss that.
fighter_mcwarrior 08-11-07, 11:02 PM	Versatile: Basically anything from ToB... ToB deserves to be shunned. In any case, ToB blade mages aren't as versatile as well-played fighters. None of those manuevers can be used at range (thank god), and I guarantee that with a bit of work, you can produce a generic fighter that can outfight a warblade in melee after softening him up at range while on horseback. ASF: mithral, twighlight, and quite a few other things Unless I missed something, that's about all you can do to reduce ASF, not to mention that a mithral tower shield STILL weighs 50lbs and has some ASF. Of course, it is really funny to watch the spellcaster in heavy armor crumple in a heap after he's been STR-drained by the party monk or rogue. Encumbrance, after all, has serious ASF penalties. Buffs: When the fighter is large and the mage is collosal tripping just doesn't work Actually, it does. Don't ask why, but under the rules I believe it does since the fighter most likely has a higher STR and BAB than the mage. Initiative: foresight+celerity solves that problem if we really want to discuss that. Sigh...another one of these? For some reason, all of the pro-caster arguments I've ever seen rely upon the idea that spellcasters have exactly the correct type and number of spells prepared ahead of time. If you assume that, I can always PWN the mage with a dragonrider who happens to be a cavalier who is optimized to fight with a lance and skewer the crap out of the squishy caster. This assumes, of course, that my fighter happens to be a dragon rider/cavalier who is optimized to fight with a lance. Most of the time, you don't know what is coming around the corner, so you may have the wrong type of spells prepared, and even if you use divination, those kinds of spells are very easy to block. This rule applies equally to everyone in the party, spellcaster or not.
archerpwr 08-11-07, 11:20 PM	ToB: you may not like it, but IMO it puts fun into melee. As for ranged attacks, I dont want to get into the sillyness in that argument ASF: read some gish guides; there are about a dozen materials and enhancements Tripping: check your PHB on the size limitation Foresight+Celerity: too good not to prepare. Another gem is elemental body(SC)
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-11-07, 11:49 PM	This is an "There is a large amount of expertise for building characters that are good at what they want to do" kind of statement. Prestige classes: feats don't scale well Versatile: Basically anything from ToB (w00t options besides full attack or a single tactic every feat is based on!), swift hunters (for archery), party friendly frenzied berserkers (for mad DPR, a good will save, and not dieing), and some mix of prestige classes and base classes for everything else (just name a goal and I can name a class better for it). ToB isn't as impressive as it looks. It's still just extra damage in the end (For the most part. ToB should not be compared to a normal fighter, like you don't compare a Binder to a Sorcerer). Swift Hunters are just archery-focused. That's not versatile. Not to mention that to deal any real damage, they need to make a full attack, which will give most fighters plenty of time to charge them. Frenzied Berserkers are just like super-barbarians. Where are you getting this thing about them having good Will Saves? They need it, unlike a normal fighter who it's just handy for. Seriously. The point of PrCs is for specialization. AoO tactics are not specialized, that's a lot of options with a lot of usable weapons. What PrC does a better job with AoOs than the Chain Tripper or Jack B. Quick? ASF: mithral, twighlight, and quite a few other things Fighter_mcwarrior puts it nicely. Encumberance sucks. Buffs: When the fighter is large and the mage is collosal tripping just doesn't work The mage is still squishy. A single hit with a spiked chain takes away what a Wizard gets in two levels. Initiative: foresight+celerity solves that problem if we really want to discuss that. I agree that it's good, but I agree that it's not always prepared. Keep in mind that you're dazed without specific mechanical choices.
archerpwr 08-12-07, 12:07 AM	TL: I think you are stuck on the stereotype of "squishy" mages. ToB damage: warblades are pretty even with barbarians Swift Hunter: greater manyshot based, great skills, minor casting, and the best option for archery FB: obviously you dont see CO FBs AoO: psychic weapon master comes to mind Squishyness: either the mage has better defenses (Iot7fV) or in all likelyhood they just celeritied/contingent DDoored out of reach Dazed: If the mage feels really threatened they will teleport out.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-12-07, 12:26 AM	I'm stuck on the stereotype because it is true. Mages always have terrible HPs and ACs. Bringing out the Initiate isn't really fair; sure it's there, but it's universally acknowledged as unbalanced (Unless you can save against every veil, can you?). I'll admit that Contingency is good, but you can only have one, and until you have Time Stop, you're for the most part stuck with fleeing (And don't bring up Celerity. Again, we know it's there, but cheap). I agree that the Warblade and Swift Hunters are versatile (Although the latter sacrifices raw damage). But a versatile FB? Fuggedaboudit. What do they have that's so versatile? You go on about their good Will Saves, but they're forced to increase them lest they become partykillers. What else is there besides their 5/day killing spree? (And Psychic Weapon Masters are not good for AoOs. They are outdone by a single feat.)
runestar 08-12-07, 12:47 AM	I am curious as to what you mean by terrible ACs and hp. In 3.5, a mage's hp is not necessarily any inferior to that of the fighter [base10 + 9armour (+5 twillight mithral chainshirt) + 6dex (22 dex score) + 6shield (+5 mithral buckler) + 5deflection (ring of prot) + 5NA (amulet of NA)] = 41. A typical fighter usually manages around 43, though he could raise this to 53 with expertise and defending weapon, but it eats into his attack rating, so it is not really recommended unless in dire straits. Hp is poor, but not as bad as in 2ed (where a mage usually had 30 hp or less). Now, a wizard with 24con (base14, +6enhancement, +5 inherent), average die rolls (2.5*20 for simplicity's sake) and improved toughness gets around 200hp. Throw in temp hp like false life as well. And that is not factoring other forms of defense, such as mirror image, which offer absolute protection regardless of your AC. Care to enlighten me?
archerpwr 08-12-07, 12:48 AM	1st paragraph: You're right; celerity and initiate are overpowered. HP: Con is a caster's second stat and with bite of the werebear hp isnt really an issue Swift Hunters: best archery damage without severe polymorph abuse FB: RAW damage, never dies, knockback crowd control, great will save. OK, nevermind versatility there (only a bit more) PWM: forgot about that.
skywyze 08-12-07, 12:55 AM	Just as an aside, where's the Swift Hunter class from?
archerpwr 08-12-07, 01:00 AM	Just as an aside, where's the Swift Hunter class from? feat; complete scoundrel To the original question: for optimization purposes it is suicide.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-12-07, 01:04 AM	Alright, so maybe I've exagerrated. Mages and fighters both have access to resources to boost stats to a similar level. I supposed I'm speaking from experience (Other mage players just hoped they never got near combat). Mind you, both of them have access to the same things. My answer to the original question: It's viable up to a point, PrC after about level 40 or so when you've run out of feats.
archerpwr 08-12-07, 01:07 AM	Alright, so maybe I've exagerrated. Mages and fighters both have access to resources to boost stats to a similar level. I supposed I'm speaking from experience (Other mage players just hoped they never got near combat). Mind you, both of them have access to the same things. My answer to the original question: It's viable up to a point, PrC after about level 4 or so when you've run out of feats. Fix'd.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-12-07, 01:17 AM	feat; complete scoundrel To the original question: for optimization purposes it is suicide if you don't want to bother with taking a large variety of powerful feats. Fix'd also.
fighter_mcwarrior 08-12-07, 08:08 AM	Seriously, are there enough feats in the game to satisfy my lust for feats? I was trying to make a 30th level character but ran out of good feats to take at around level 10. Does anyone know of a decent fighter 20 build? Thanks! Well, that depends on what type of fighter you want to build. If you want a tank, take all of the fighter feats out of races of stone (heavy armor optimization comes to mind). If you want a swift and furious battlefield-control type, take all of the mounted combat feats, including the saddleback regional feat if you are in the forgotten realms. IMO, a human fighter is in his element while mounted. I can imagine just how scary an epic version of that could be. Other than that, please tell me you took cleave and great cleave. Those are absolutely essential to a fighter who fights many enemies at once.
D.A.Dervish 08-12-07, 10:48 AM	Yes, it's possible. Yes, it's viable. Yes, there are more "powerful" characters. No, I don't give a damn about the previous point as this game is always watched over and continually balanced by a guy called "the DM". Why do people go crazy about character power levels? Instead of overcompensating for your (like mine) lowely real life stature by constructing a character that can destroy worlds, speak to your fellow players about their characters and try to achive some balance among them. It's the least you can do to help your DM balance encounters for you (especially true at higher levels). Oh, as a sidenote: I do enjoy constructing characters as a form of cerebral excercise. As long as it is only theoretical and my friends go "Wow" instead of feeling jealous at the gaming table.
archerpwr 08-12-07, 12:07 PM	Fix'd also. There aren't that many feats worth 2 levels. Fighter is (if you really want to be effective) best as a dip. 4 levels sets you up for weapon mastery (PH2), which is why it is a viable stopping point. OP: what kind of fighter do you want to make? I'd be glad to help you build one. On mounted chargers: Fighter is a viable entry to cavilier, which as a melee class is second only to frenzied berserker, but paladin/ beastmaster (supermount) is better
archerpwr 08-12-07, 12:13 PM	Why do people go crazy about character power levels? 1) I can't roleplay if I'm dead 2) I like to be effective 3) It's a lot easier for me to hold back in game than for me to get everyone else to baby me
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-12-07, 12:43 PM	There's plenty of feats worth more than 4 levels. There's Overpowering Attack at 16th level, and in the mean time, take AoO feats, Tactical feat, Combat Focus feats, charging feats, and numerous others to give you plenty of combat options that can't be matched by a PrC or other normal melee class.
archerpwr 08-12-07, 01:03 PM	There's plenty of feats worth more than 4 levels. There's Overpowering Attack at 16th level, and in the mean time, take AoO feats, Tactical feat, Combat Focus feats, charging feats, and numerous others to give you plenty of combat options that can't be matched by a PrC or other normal melee class. Overpowering Attack: only good for AoO builds. Feats: name a few. There aren't many Reminder: PCs have a limited number of actions and wealth.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-12-07, 01:06 PM	Overpowering Attack: only good for AoO builds. Feats: name a few. There aren't many. What I mean is that its not about the feats themselves, it's how many you can get. No other class can take both all the Combat Focus feats, the complete Dodge feat tree, and the Weapon Supremecy tree.
archerpwr 08-12-07, 01:16 PM	What I mean is that its not about the feats themselves, it's how many you can get. No other class can take both all the Combat Focus feats, the complete Dodge feat tree, and the Weapon Supremecy tree. You can do anything you want. That doesnt make it a good idea. Diminishing returns man.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-12-07, 01:53 PM	You can do anything you want. That doesnt make it a good idea. Diminishing returns man. Of course you'll want to leave eventually, there's a diminishing return. However, I believe that with the variety of good feats out there and your ability to take them all as a fighter make gives you a good output for far longer than four dip levels. In this case, doing whatever you want is a good idea.
fighter_mcwarrior 08-12-07, 01:55 PM	Overpowering Attack: only good for AoO builds. AoO builds can be easily incorporated into another build. Feats: name a few. There aren't many Hmm...let's start with the entire weapon focus tree. Later, this gives you access to weapon supremecy and the other feats that require weapon specialization. Even though there may not be a lot of fighter-exclusive feats outside of core, the benefit of multiple fighter levels is that it gives you a bunch of combat-enhancing feats very quickly.
fighter_mcwarrior 08-12-07, 02:05 PM	You can do anything you want. That doesnt make it a good idea. You mean like a wizard porting around a tower shield and wearing armor? Diminishing returns man. Which is why you go into combat-focused PrCs (cavalier, exotic weapons master, dwarven defender, etc) around level 12-15.
Argaud 08-12-07, 02:13 PM	Swift Hunters: best archery damage without severe polymorph abuse This is false, even a simple fighter archer manages to do far more damage than the swift hunter and is not limited to 30'. Here is the thread where I proved this to you decisively, in the case you need a reminder: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=863508 The argument starts in page 2 and ends in page 5, where you decide CustServ ruling of not giving precision damage to the split arrows of a bow of splitting does not apply to you, and still the swifthunter is doing less damage than a pure fighter with the same gear.
CrimsonDeath 08-12-07, 04:41 PM	1. Shielded Casting requires that a spellcaster lugs around a Heavy shield. ASF? Actually, Shielded Casting requires a Light or heavier shield. A light mithral shield incurs 0% ASF. Even if a spellcaster incurs no AoOs from spellcasting, they can be tripped and kept on the ground. Which has zero impact on a spellcaster's capacity to actually cast spells. Unless I missed something, that's about all you can do to reduce ASF, not to mention that a mithral tower shield STILL weighs 50lbs and has some ASF. Of course, it is really funny to watch the spellcaster in heavy armor crumple in a heap after he's been STR-drained by the party monk or rogue. Encumbrance, after all, has serious ASF penalties. It's not quite everything. There's also Thistledown padding, but that only works for armor and it's only another 5%. But who gave him a Tower shield? What benefit does a tower shield give a spellcaster beyond that of a heavy shield that outweighs not only the difference in ASF but also the ACP? In fact, who other than Fighters even uses a tower shield in the first place? As for encumberance, I can't find any rules that it incurs ASF. It's not mentioned in the sidebar under Wizards that deals with ASF, it's not mentioned in the Armor section of the Equipment chapter that deals with ASF, and it's not mentioned under Carrying Capacity where Encumberance is discussed. Mages always have terrible HPs and ACs. Even if that were true, spellcasters also typically have other options for evading attacks-- Fly, Displacement, Etherealness (with Transdimensional Spell), Wind Wall, Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image, Obscuring Mist, Project Image, Wall of Force... The list goes on.
archerpwr 08-12-07, 09:55 PM	AoO builds can be easily incorporated into another build. Hmm...let's start with the entire weapon focus tree. Later, this gives you access to weapon supremecy and the other feats that require weapon specialization. Even though there may not be a lot of fighter-exclusive feats outside of core, the benefit of multiple fighter levels is that it gives you a bunch of combat-enhancing feats very quickly. Weapon focus tree- ask around. Usually +1 to hit and +2 to damage isnt a very good way to spend 4 levels. Which is why you go into combat-focused PrCs (cavalier, exotic weapons master, dwarven defender, etc) around level 12-15. I 100% agree. This is false, even a simple fighter archer manages to do far more damage than the swift hunter and is not limited to 30'. Here is the thread where I proved this to you decisively, in the case you need a reminder: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=863508 The argument starts in page 2 and ends in page 5, where you decide CustServ ruling of not giving precision damage to the split arrows of a bow of splitting does not apply to you, and still the swifthunter is doing less damage than a pure fighter with the same gear. Bull. I deliberately let you equip things in the fighter's favor just to keep it simple and see how well a level 20 fighter could do. Things I deliberately gave you: 1) equipment- you assumed that the skirmisher would pick out the exact same equipment; a swift hunter bypasses the boots of speed for things like rogue's vest (MIC) and skirmisher boots (MIC) 2) DR- we assumed there was 0 DR in play. DR affects the fighter a lot more than the skirmisher 3) AC- only against very high ACs (your example AC was a good bit higher than most CR 20 ACs) does the fighter's increased to hit actually make a difference 4) mobility- We assume that the enemy never bothers to duck behind something to block your LoS and you can full attack with haste every round 5) miss chance-exacting shot (SC) >>> improved precise shot 6) Improved Manyshot [Epic] Prerequisites Dex 19, base attack bonus +21, Many-shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Benefits As Manyshot, but the number of arrows you can fire is limited only by your base attack bonus (two arrows, plus one arrow for every 5 points of base attack bonus above +6). Special Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you only apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage or the ranger’s favored enemy bonus) once. If you score a critical hit, only one of the arrows deals critical damage (your choice); all others deal normal damage. Normal With the Manyshot feat, you are limited to a maximum of four arrows fired (when your base attack bonus is +16 or higher). Sorry about the long post.
runestar 08-13-07, 01:46 AM	If you want the weapon focus tree, you really need only 4 lvs of fighter to get most of the good stuff(weapon focus/spec, the epic versions and weapon mastery). Greater weapon focus/spec is just not worth sticking with straight fighter. Weapon supremacy is tough to give up, I admit, but it comes so late, and is not necessarily superior to other higher lv abilities.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-13-07, 11:34 AM	If you want the weapon focus tree, you really need only 4 lvs of fighter to get most of the good stuff(weapon focus/spec, the epic versions and weapon mastery). Greater weapon focus/spec is just not worth sticking with straight fighter. Weapon supremacy is tough to give up, I admit, but it comes so late, and is not necessarily superior to other higher lv abilities. Not worth it alone. A fighter can pursue numerous other combat options if they choose to continue to take the tree.
Kihon 08-13-07, 11:49 AM	Back to the point - is it possible to play a straight human Fighter to level 30 and have them be effective in combat and helpful to an adventuring group? Yes. The fighter has many feats, and many many options open to them. So you can build them to whatever you want them to become. I've done it and had a lot of fun with it. In fact being the only straight human in the group I got to do a lot more role-playing then I thought, even though other classes had a much better Chr & social skills. Our DM had the main world very humanisk in nature - they didn't trust most non-humans so I got stuck doing a lot of role-playing and skill rolling with no modifiers... very fun actually. IMHO the 30th level fighter is a viable option - heck every good group needs at least one fighter type.
archerpwr 08-13-07, 12:42 PM	Not worth it alone. A fighter can pursue numerous other combat options if they choose to continue to take the tree. Out of curiosity could you tell me your opinion of the following classes? Frenzied Berserker (CW), Cavilier (CW), Soulbow (CP), Order of the bow initiate (CW), Exotic Weapon master (CW), Highland Stalker (CV), Fortune's Friend (CS), Master of the Masks (CS), Cloaked Dancer (CS), Warhulk (MHB), and Hulking Hurler (CW). I'm curious.
BillTheManiac 08-13-07, 09:28 PM	Hulking Hurler can get rediculous as epic, as the character's damage increases exponentially. The problem shouldn't exist at 30 without war hulk or extreme optomization.
runestar 08-13-07, 09:36 PM	IMHO the 30th level fighter is a viable option - heck every good group needs at least one fighter type. However, a fighter type need not necessarily be a fighter, or even a typical melee class. ;)
archerpwr 08-13-07, 10:01 PM	Hulking Hurler can get rediculous as epic, as the character's damage increases exponentially. The problem shouldn't exist at 30 without war hulk or extreme optomization. I agree, but warhulk (hulking hurler isnt the problem, but the uncapped improvised weapon damage) can help a fighter not require PAO to be effective.
runestar 08-14-07, 12:47 AM	Warhulk seems like a viable choice at epic lvs. Its bab progression of 0 is moot as it will be overwritten by the epic bab rules, and +2str/lv means an additional +1 to-hit. Large can be replicated using permanent enlarge (or simply playing a large race like a half-ogre).
BillTheManiac 08-14-07, 08:36 AM	I agree, but warhulk (hulking hurler isnt the problem, but the uncapped improvised weapon damage) can help a fighter not require PAO to be effective. Hulking hurler gains "throw anything equivalent to a light load". Without HH it's based on your size.
archerpwr 08-14-07, 09:43 AM	Hulking hurler gains "throw anything equivalent to a light load". Without HH it's based on your size. Exactly. Just capping the improvised weapon damage would solve the problem.