Stupid Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Stupid Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bruunwald
04-03-07, 12:36 PM You guys probably face this question here all the time, but as I usually do not delve into epic level stuff, I am somewhat at a loss. Here goes:

If I advance a creature, first by size, then by adding class levels from a non-associated class, so that its CR is technically 17, but its HD go over 20, should I then treat it as an epic creature for every HD over 20?

And then, if I do that, is there some reason I should not send it after my level 17 group? (I mean so long as I don't give it any epic-level feats.) Something I'm missing, I mean.
jadehawk
04-03-07, 12:49 PM No, the creature is not epic. It is character level (or CR) which determines whether something is epic or not, the bridge being between 20 and 21.

So it being CR 17, it is totally fine as a challenge for a level 17 party.
Bruunwald
04-03-07, 01:15 PM Thanks for the clarification.

I appreciate it!
Witch
04-03-07, 01:40 PM If I advance a creature, first by size, then by adding class levels from a non-associated class, so that its CR is technically 17, but its HD go over 20, should I then treat it as an epic creature for every HD over 20?

Could you give an example?

CR has nothing to do with being epic or not. Monstrous hit dice never triggers epic progression either, though 21 hit dice, regardless of the origin, allows you to take epic feats.
The moment your monstrous hit dice + class levels are 21 or more, and at least one of those is a class level, you use epic AB/save progression for all the class levels.
bluemage55
04-03-07, 05:37 PM Jadehawk is completely wrong. Witch is correct.
Bruunwald
04-03-07, 06:07 PM I knew if I checked back later, I'd see conflicting responses. ;)

Can anybody point me to where I can read up on this as it specifically applies to creatures? I am very familiar with the MM monster advancement rules, but I don't remember it there anywhere (then again, I have never had a reason to worry about epic rules - or look for them - before now).

Likewise, the DMG only seems to touch on advancing PCs in this way (though it does say something like, "no matter how the 21st level is reached, the following rules, etc..."). That info seems sort of vague on this topic.

I also have the Epic Level Handbook, but it gives specific monsters and templates, and does not seem to actually describe advancement of creatures in any detail. Admittedly, though I have had that book for years, I only really cracked it open last night for the first time.

So, if anybody can point me to the right book/chapter/page/whatever, it would be most helpful.

I appreciate it!
Witch
04-03-07, 06:11 PM It's unlikely that you'll find conclusive evidence regarding this completely in the rules. There are (at least at first sight) contradictions. What I've argued is the explanation that has hence managed to cause least contradictions with written material. The problem is that there are many defendable positions, because WotC has contradicted itself on this regard many a time.

Let me clarify though, that CR has nothing to do with the fact if a creature is epic or not. Being epic is governed by character level, which is hit dice.
Bruunwald
04-03-07, 06:36 PM It's unlikely that you'll find conclusive evidence regarding this completely in the rules. There are (at least at first sight) contradictions. What I've argued is the explanation that has hence managed to cause least contradictions with written material. The problem is that there are many defendable positions, because WotC has contradicted itself on this regard many a time.

Let me clarify though, that CR has nothing to do with the fact if a creature is epic or not. Being epic is governed by character level, which is hit dice.

Hmmm... Well, that's fine. I wasn't arguing about the CR thing. Only asking about the HD thing.

Since Huge size elementals have Hit Dice in the twenties, and still retain CRs around 11 or so, I suppose I could just dissect one of those and see if it used the epic rules after 20 HD.

That would be all the reference I need.
bluemage55
04-03-07, 09:08 PM Monster HD does not use epic BAB and saves.

The monsters found in the MM also do not make use of epic rules, as the ELH came out after the original MM.
rob_douglas
04-04-07, 12:39 AM As many have said, there is no conclusive rule. There are even some contradictory ones, such as the rules on Dragons and Epic Feats in the Draconomicon: It says they gain them at Old age - and as a result, more powerful dragons actually need more HD to gain Epic Feats, while White Dragons need the fewest HD to gain them.

The rules for qualifying for an Epic Feat requires that you have 21 Character Levels, and in the DND FAQ, Character Level is defined as Hit Dice, so by the rules, any 21-HD creature qualifies for Epic Feats. However, I do not think it is a good idea to use that feature when dealing with a monster that is designed as a challenge to a party, when that monster's CR is less than 21. That is just encounter design principles, and not a rule. As you will note, the only creatures with Epic Feats are in the ELH, and they don't all have as many Epic Feats as they are entitled to by HD. I think they come out closer to being by HD at which CR would be above 21, in the case of Primal Elementals and Devestation Vermin, etc.

In the MM, I would strongly consider giving every Solar an Epic Feat in place of one of its feats. I would reserve Epic Spellcasting for PC Solars, but something else would work. When I advance Balor, I give them Epic Feats.

If doing a PC, always give Epic Feats for HD>20, regardless of CR.

ROB
Bruunwald
04-04-07, 01:09 PM I had no intention of giving the creature epic feats. My question was simple:

If I advance a creature beyond 20 HD, do I use the epic rules for determining the level-dependent benefits of each HD beyond? That means saves and BAB.

As it turns out, it comes out to the same thing in my particular case. Other than the feats, I don't see so big a difference between doing it one way or the other, for creatures going against a party that is not epic itself, so I think I'll just stick to building per the MM, and leave the epic stuff out.

Thanks everybody, for your responses.
bluemage55
04-04-07, 05:35 PM If I advance a creature beyond 20 HD, do I use the epic rules for determining the level-dependent benefits of each HD beyond? That means saves and BAB.

As mentioned above, the answer is no. Racial HD never uses epic BAB/saves.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bruunwald 04-03-07, 12:36 PM	You guys probably face this question here all the time, but as I usually do not delve into epic level stuff, I am somewhat at a loss. Here goes: If I advance a creature, first by size, then by adding class levels from a non-associated class, so that its CR is technically 17, but its HD go over 20, should I then treat it as an epic creature for every HD over 20? And then, if I do that, is there some reason I should not send it after my level 17 group? (I mean so long as I don't give it any epic-level feats.) Something I'm missing, I mean.
jadehawk 04-03-07, 12:49 PM	No, the creature is not epic. It is character level (or CR) which determines whether something is epic or not, the bridge being between 20 and 21. So it being CR 17, it is totally fine as a challenge for a level 17 party.
Bruunwald 04-03-07, 01:15 PM	Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it!
Witch 04-03-07, 01:40 PM	If I advance a creature, first by size, then by adding class levels from a non-associated class, so that its CR is technically 17, but its HD go over 20, should I then treat it as an epic creature for every HD over 20? Could you give an example? CR has nothing to do with being epic or not. Monstrous hit dice never triggers epic progression either, though 21 hit dice, regardless of the origin, allows you to take epic feats. The moment your monstrous hit dice + class levels are 21 or more, and at least one of those is a class level, you use epic AB/save progression for all the class levels.
bluemage55 04-03-07, 05:37 PM	Jadehawk is completely wrong. Witch is correct.
Bruunwald 04-03-07, 06:07 PM	I knew if I checked back later, I'd see conflicting responses. ;) Can anybody point me to where I can read up on this as it specifically applies to creatures? I am very familiar with the MM monster advancement rules, but I don't remember it there anywhere (then again, I have never had a reason to worry about epic rules - or look for them - before now). Likewise, the DMG only seems to touch on advancing PCs in this way (though it does say something like, "no matter how the 21st level is reached, the following rules, etc..."). That info seems sort of vague on this topic. I also have the Epic Level Handbook, but it gives specific monsters and templates, and does not seem to actually describe advancement of creatures in any detail. Admittedly, though I have had that book for years, I only really cracked it open last night for the first time. So, if anybody can point me to the right book/chapter/page/whatever, it would be most helpful. I appreciate it!
Witch 04-03-07, 06:11 PM	It's unlikely that you'll find conclusive evidence regarding this completely in the rules. There are (at least at first sight) contradictions. What I've argued is the explanation that has hence managed to cause least contradictions with written material. The problem is that there are many defendable positions, because WotC has contradicted itself on this regard many a time. Let me clarify though, that CR has nothing to do with the fact if a creature is epic or not. Being epic is governed by character level, which is hit dice.
Bruunwald 04-03-07, 06:36 PM	It's unlikely that you'll find conclusive evidence regarding this completely in the rules. There are (at least at first sight) contradictions. What I've argued is the explanation that has hence managed to cause least contradictions with written material. The problem is that there are many defendable positions, because WotC has contradicted itself on this regard many a time. Let me clarify though, that CR has nothing to do with the fact if a creature is epic or not. Being epic is governed by character level, which is hit dice. Hmmm... Well, that's fine. I wasn't arguing about the CR thing. Only asking about the HD thing. Since Huge size elementals have Hit Dice in the twenties, and still retain CRs around 11 or so, I suppose I could just dissect one of those and see if it used the epic rules after 20 HD. That would be all the reference I need.
bluemage55 04-03-07, 09:08 PM	Monster HD does not use epic BAB and saves. The monsters found in the MM also do not make use of epic rules, as the ELH came out after the original MM.
rob_douglas 04-04-07, 12:39 AM	As many have said, there is no conclusive rule. There are even some contradictory ones, such as the rules on Dragons and Epic Feats in the Draconomicon: It says they gain them at Old age - and as a result, more powerful dragons actually need more HD to gain Epic Feats, while White Dragons need the fewest HD to gain them. The rules for qualifying for an Epic Feat requires that you have 21 Character Levels, and in the DND FAQ, Character Level is defined as Hit Dice, so by the rules, any 21-HD creature qualifies for Epic Feats. However, I do not think it is a good idea to use that feature when dealing with a monster that is designed as a challenge to a party, when that monster's CR is less than 21. That is just encounter design principles, and not a rule. As you will note, the only creatures with Epic Feats are in the ELH, and they don't all have as many Epic Feats as they are entitled to by HD. I think they come out closer to being by HD at which CR would be above 21, in the case of Primal Elementals and Devestation Vermin, etc. In the MM, I would strongly consider giving every Solar an Epic Feat in place of one of its feats. I would reserve Epic Spellcasting for PC Solars, but something else would work. When I advance Balor, I give them Epic Feats. If doing a PC, always give Epic Feats for HD>20, regardless of CR. ROB
Bruunwald 04-04-07, 01:09 PM	I had no intention of giving the creature epic feats. My question was simple: If I advance a creature beyond 20 HD, do I use the epic rules for determining the level-dependent benefits of each HD beyond? That means saves and BAB. As it turns out, it comes out to the same thing in my particular case. Other than the feats, I don't see so big a difference between doing it one way or the other, for creatures going against a party that is not epic itself, so I think I'll just stick to building per the MM, and leave the epic stuff out. Thanks everybody, for your responses.
bluemage55 04-04-07, 05:35 PM	If I advance a creature beyond 20 HD, do I use the epic rules for determining the level-dependent benefits of each HD beyond? That means saves and BAB. As mentioned above, the answer is no. Racial HD never uses epic BAB/saves.