Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 12-05-07, 09:52 PM	With some of us seriously talking about house ruling the worst parts of 3e rather than switch to 4e in May, I decided to make my own contribution. Here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=213511) I will be fixing or replacing the problems that I see with the 3.0 ELH; the rampant power disparity that it encourages between optimizers and non-optimizers, its clunky epic spell casting system, the truncation at 20th level of abilities that should progress beyond and the continuation of abilities that should end at 20th and its dysfunctional wealth and equipment system. I’ll also be sneaking a few things in that I use in games of any power level.
Amon_V 12-06-07, 03:42 AM	Thank you very much:)
BigGus 12-06-07, 08:21 AM	Very interesting...a lot of these changes are similar to ones I've made myself, and apparently for similar reasons; I wanted class progressions to be as similar to non-epic as possible, just giving most classes bonus feats instead of class abilities seems like a cop-out. (If we're going to do that, why don't non-epic characters just get one or two class abilities and bonus feats...hmmm, there might be something in that...). I like the "epic characters are on the path to divinity" bit. Characters are already so powerful by 20th level that beyond this level they're not entirely mortal any more. (Just look at the list of characters at the start of chapter 1 of the ELH; half of them are actually divine, semi-divine, or immortal). I also like the idea of feats which can be taken once every 20 levels; it's a good way to limit the power of certain epic feats which get completely out of hand if allowed to stack indefinitely (multispell, great smiting) and also to allow certain epic feats to be taken multiple times when they can't normally, without upsetting the balance (epic endurance, epic fort/ refl/ will, epic spell focus/ penetration, epic skill focus). Also, I think Supreme Weapon Focus/ Spec make sense, especially as Barbarians get Mighty Rage at level 20 in 3.5. I'm probably going to add those to my campaign. Now, to the stuff I didn't like as much; While I instinctively dislike it, I have to agree with WotC that epic attack bonus is necessary; at very high levels, it becomes impossible for anyone who doesn't have mostly warrior (+1/1) levels to hit anything except on a natural 20. Monks, for example, become totally useless in combat. I do let characters use their best 20 levels rather than their first 20 to determine their BAB, though. I don't see why rage starts increasing once every five levels instead of once every ten. Do you have any more rogue special abilities worked out? By level 25 they'd have them all, and only skill mastery can be taken multiple times. Finally, and most importantly, epic magic; I've tried to make a linear system of spells/ day for epic casters, and found that at higher levels, their power so vastly outstrips non-casters it's not even funny. I eventually concluded that to continue the progression I could only give them one spell per level per day for free. Combine this with empower spell as many times as you like, and you've got a damage-dealing machine no-one else can compare with; anyone without universal elemental immunity at the very least doesn't stand a chance. Do you have any balancing factors for this? If not, how much have you playtested it? Does it actually unbalance things as much as it seems? Oh and one small thing; I notice the epic spell progressions all start at level 11. I'm assuming this is a typo for Bd /Ra /Pal, but is it intentional for W/ S/ C/ D? Do you give them 10th-level spells at level 19 or something?
SokenzanMarauder 12-06-07, 04:31 PM	Very nice idea! I especially like how you've kept the attack and save progressions going as they were pre-epic. I never liked that Wizards gained the same BAB progression post-20 as Fighters, same with the saves. I too am somewhat curious about why you speeded up the Barbarian's Rage progression as well and I also wonder how you're going to remedy Rogues and their Special Abilities. Also, how do you intend to work Epic Spells with this new system of yours? Something like Faenmirc?
BigGus 12-06-07, 07:03 PM	I especially like how you've kept the attack and save progressions going as they were pre-epic. Actually, he (she?) has used epic save bonuses, both good and bad saves go up 1/2. Behind the Curtain: per Day Abilities Game balance is based on encounters per day. As class abilities are often already usable more times per day than the recommended four encounters at 20th level, so adding uses per day to those abilities would only degrade the shaky balance that high- and epic-level play already possess. Spells improve beyond 20th level because only a caster’s highest spell levels effectively constitute their per day abilities. Not sure if I entirely agree with this. Some class abilities (Bardsong, Stunning Fist for a Monk) are already usable several times per encounter well before level 20, and others (Barbarian Rage) aren't usable more than once per encounter. I can perhaps see that Smite Evil and Wild Shape could unbalance things if you can use them several times per encounter, though. Also, I don't necessarily agree that just because a Wizard has 15th level spells, his 9th level spells aren't worth anything any more. Some wouldn't be much use, but others like Mage's Disjunction or Time Stop would be as valuable as ever. A few more things that occured to me; I notice there are no class abilities listed for the Paladin. Do they continue getting extra uses of remove disease after level 20, since this is only up to 5/week by level 20? As for not automatically failing on a 1; in the SRD, it says that only deities of rank 1 or above get this, so you're sort of "leapfrogging" rank 0. I think it would be better to give them a rank 0 ability, or even a reduced version of one, such as +10ft move speed or damage reduction 5/epic. Also, I think the "natural 1 gives -20 penalty and roll again, natural 20 gives +20 bonus and roll again" variant makes more sense than the automatic failure/ success rule, especially at epic levels where AC and attack bonuses can be obscenely high. Also, ceasing to age entirely seems a bit sudden to me, druids and monks don't even get timeless body until levels 15 and 17 respectively. I'd suggest something more like; at level 21 all characters get timeless body, and extended lifespan as a bonus feat, and a further extended lifespan every 5 or 10 levels thereafter. This gives the sense that time means less and less to them as they get closer to divinity, rather than going straight from aging normally to not at all. It also makes possible characters who live for centuries (or if they're elves, millenia) but aren't actually immortal, which couldn't happen in this system unless you allowed non-epic characters to take extended lifespan (or allowed things like life-extending spells). It seems odd to me that wealth almost doubles (from 760, 000 to 1,500,000GP) from level 20 to 21, then continues increasing in smaller increments again. Have you also rewritten the wealth guidelines for levels 1-20? Finally, why do the tattoos of ability enhancement start at +12? Are you allowing up to +10 for non-epic characters?
Taeldrin Laesrash 12-06-07, 07:22 PM	For the most part, I like it. The implied continuation of the non-epic system is good. I disagree, though, with the whole semi-divinity thing you give epic characters; level 21 should be the same as level 11 (Especially considering that you streamline everything else).
BigGus 12-06-07, 07:59 PM	For the most part, I like it. The implied continuation of the non-epic system is good. I disagree, though, with the whole semi-divinity thing you give epic characters; level 21 should be the same as level 11 (Especially considering that you streamline everything else). While I like the idea myself, I think it should be listed as strictly optional, as it relates to a particular conception of what becoming epic means, rather than being something missing or broken in need of fixing.
SokenzanMarauder 12-06-07, 08:58 PM	Actually, he (she?) has used epic save bonuses, both good and bad saves go up 1/2.Didn't even notice that.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-07-07, 04:49 AM	It's good to hear such good feedback. There are a lot of questions, but I’ll answer them as best I can. Also, I think Supreme Weapon Focus/ Spec make sense, especially as Barbarians get Mighty Rage at level 20 in 3.5. I'm probably going to add those to my campaign. Simple continuations like that always just seemed like no-brainers to me; I do the same with Supreme TWF, TWD and any other abilities that seem to arbitrarily end mid-progression. While I instinctively dislike it, I have to agree with WotC that epic attack bonus is necessary; at very high levels, it becomes impossible for anyone who doesn't have mostly warrior (+1/1) levels to hit anything except on a natural 20. Monks, for example, become totally useless in combat. I do let characters use their best 20 levels rather than their first 20 to determine their BAB, though. For now the best way I can answer this concern is that I'll be putting up my epic monsters soon. Or rather, epic monster progressions so that DMs can see the relationship between epic ABs and monster AC. I don't see why rage starts increasing once every five levels instead of once every ten. When assigning class ability progressions, I looked at not only their pre-epic rate but also their sum at level 20. Rage gets boosts at levels 10 and 20 but they get an even bigger boost at level 1. I've always felt that rage should start with +2 Str/+2 Con at 1st but I'm fixing epic, not pre-epic core classes so I won't get into that. Anyway over the first 20 levels a barb gains a total of four +2/+2 rage increments so I decided to divide those up evenly for another 20 levels; hence the +2/+2 every five epic levels. Do you have any more rogue special abilities worked out? By level 25 they'd have them all, and only skill mastery can be taken multiple times. No I don't, and I'm open to ideas. Also keep in mind that a bonus feat is one of the special ability options. Finally, and most importantly, epic magic; I've tried to make a linear system of spells/ day for epic casters, and found that at higher levels, their power so vastly outstrips non-casters it's not even funny. I eventually concluded that to continue the progression I could only give them one spell per level per day for free. Combine this with empower spell as many times as you like, and you've got a damage-dealing machine no-one else can compare with; anyone without universal elemental immunity at the very least doesn't stand a chance. Do you have any balancing factors for this? If not, how much have you playtested it? Does it actually unbalance things as much as it seems? Currently, the balancing factor for Epic Empower is that you have to take the feat once for each time you stack it. So yes, an epic evoker could throw around some serious pain but so can a non-epic one with empower, maximize, twin, energy admix, etc... This could be a mistake on my part, but on the other hand everyone always complains that direct damage spells suck at high levels. To counterbalance certain spells and effect that exist pre-epic I've been thinking about using feats. For example a feat that allows a physical character to shatter force effects or to dispel an opponent's personal buffs with a hit. What do you think? Oh and one small thing; I notice the epic spell progressions all start at level 11. I'm assuming this is a typo for Bd/ Ra / Pal, but is it intentional for W/ S/ C/ D? Do you give them 10th-level spells at level 19 or something? No typo. Spell levels is one of those class abilities that arbitrarily end at an inappropriate point in the level progression. I'm all for adding 10th level spells at 19th level (20th for sorcs)...in exchange for removing or seriously editing the most stupidly awesome of the high level spells. I notice there are no class abilities listed for the Paladin. I assume they continue getting extra uses of smite evil and remove disease after level 20? Actually, no. I made a "behind the curtain" note that I don't like increasing per day class abilities beyond level 20 because of game balance. (Yes, I increase spells per day but I explained that too) Basically, if per day abilities continue past 20th there eventually comes a point where you ask "what's the point of playing a fighter when I can play a barbarain who effectively never runs out of rages?" Granted, smites are more limited than rages but the principle still holds. For DMs who feel that 5 smites per day isn't good enough, I would point out that the problem doesn't begin with epic and would suggest a universal paladin fix rather than an epic paladin fix. (I remember seeing a paladin fix that changed smites to per encounter rather than per day) As for not automatically failing on a 1; in the SRD, it says that only deities of rank 1 or above get this, so you're sort of "leapfrogging" rank 0. I think it would be better to give them a rank 0 ability, or even a reduced version of one, such as +10ft move speed or damage reduction 5/epic. Also, I think the "natural 1 gives -20 penalty and roll again, natural 20 gives +20 bonus and roll again" variant makes more sense than the automatic failure/ success rule, especially at epic levels where AC and attack bonuses can be obscenely high. Yes it is sort of “leap frogging” DR 0, but that’s my point. Epic heroes are already halfway divine, so I wanted to start giving them some of the more minor divine abilities. Also, ceasing to age entirely seems a bit sudden to me, druids and monks don't even get timeless body until levels 15 and 17 respectively. I'd suggest something more like; at level 21 all characters get timeless body, and extended lifespan as a bonus feat, and a further extended lifespan every 5 or 10 levels thereafter. This gives the sense that time means less and less to them as they get closer to divinity, rather than going straight from aging normally to not at all. It also makes possible characters who live for centuries (or if they're elves, millenia) but aren't actually immortal, which couldn't happen in this system unless you allowed non-epic characters to take extended lifespan (or allowed things like life-extending spells). Ageless is a bit sudden, and I might be convinced to change it to timeless body at 21st and then ageless at 31st, but I don’t want to deal with Extended Life Span. I don’t think anyone really wants to go through all that mess of math for such an anticlimactic event as natural death. It seems odd to me that wealth almost doubles (from 760, 000 to 1,500,000GP) from level 20 to 21, then continues increasing in smaller increments again. Have you also rewritten the wealth guidelines for levels 1-20? I made a note of how I calculate wealth, which is a little different than whatever formula (if any) that WotC uses. Basically I estimate a generous number and power of items a PC of a given level should have, and that becomes that level’s wealth guideline. Finally, why do the tattoos of ability enhancement start at +12? Are you allowing up to +10 for non-epic characters? Yes, I allow +10 boosters for pre-epic characters but I also don’t allow inherent bonuses. The most important reason being that I like PCs to be able to advance their items and stats at a steady and consistent pace rather than scraping for a +2 booster at low levels but then ending up with a +6 booster plus a +5 tome at later levels almost all at once. Also, three increments of +2 just doesn’t fit neatly into 20 levels. Also, I don't necessarily agree that just because a Wizard has 15th level spells, his 9th level spells aren't worth anything any more. Some wouldn't be much use, but others like Mage's Disjunction or Time Stop would be as valuable as ever. This is very true, even cantrips have their place in epic play. I’ve been trying to decide what to do about spells like MD and TS but haven’t come to a conclusive decision. I might end up simply recommending that epic DMs ban them because they’re supposed to be the very pinnacle of power, a concept that is hard to fit into an epic game. Not to mention the fact that such spells cause the most problems in general. Also, how do you intend to work Epic Spells with this new system of yours? Something like Faenmirc? I’ve heard good things about the Faenmirc system but no, I’m using guidelines of my own. Basically I’m using the damage caps for direct damage spells from the DMG and applying them to a lot of other spells. You’ll notice that my Death spells and suchlike affect creatures of CR related to caster level but also limited by a CR cap; that cap is the same as the direct damage caps. For insta-suck spells, since epic save DCs so far outstrip epic spell attack bonuses and because I’m limiting them to creatures weaker than the caster, I’m giving them all secondary effects that happen when the creature is either too high CR or when the caster just can’t beat the target’s save DC. Personally I think this is how non-epic spells should be too. Other than those guidelines, a lot of core spells fall into obvious progressions like healing spells, dispel magic, etc… For the most part, I like it. The implied continuation of the non-epic system is good. I disagree, though, with the whole semi-divinity thing you give epic characters; level 21 should be the same as level 11 (Especially considering that you streamline everything else). I’m not sure what you mean by 21 should be the same as 11. But in any case, the semi-divinity thing is just my conception of what epic levels are and as such should be considered optional as Taeldrin said.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-07-07, 03:59 PM	Epic dragon progressions added!
Taeldrin Laesrash 12-07-07, 07:03 PM	I’m not sure what you mean by 21 should be the same as 11. But in any case, the semi-divinity thing is just my conception of what epic levels are and as such should be considered optional as Taeldrin said. I meant that epic levels, in my mind, are just a natural continuation of the system and shouldn't have any special things associated with them. If you want epic heroes to be the legendary types, that's up to you. Also, will you be creating unique level 10+ spells to go with the continuations? I'd like to see where things like Rain of Fire or Origin of the Species fits into your system, along with some of your own ideas.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-07-07, 09:05 PM	I meant that epic levels, in my mind, are just a natural continuation of the system and shouldn't have any special things associated with them. If you want epic heroes to be the legendary types, that's up to you. Also, will you be creating unique level 10+ spells to go with the continuations? I'd like to see where things like Rain of Fire or Origin of the Species fits into your system, along with some of your own ideas. Added Origin of Draconians and Wasting Curse, just for you. ;)
BigGus 12-10-07, 07:55 PM	*takes a deep breath* For now the best way I can answer this concern is that I'll be putting up my epic monsters soon. Or rather, epic monster progressions so that DMs can see the relationship between epic ABs and monster AC. OK, I'll have to wait to see the rest of it before I can decide what I think. When assigning class ability progressions, I looked at not only their pre-epic rate but also their sum at level 20. Rage gets boosts at levels 10 and 20 but they get an even bigger boost at level 1. I've always felt that rage should start with +2 Str/+2 Con at 1st but I'm fixing epic, not pre-epic core classes so I won't get into that. Anyway over the first 20 levels a barb gains a total of four +2/+2 rage increments so I decided to divide those up evenly for another 20 levels; hence the +2/+2 every five epic levels. Since you allow EWFoc/ Spec to be taken once every 8 levels each, it’s clearly necessary for the Bb to get fast-increasing Rage bonuses to keep them playable compared to the Ftr. However, it seems odd that you give them this, but later say "what's the point of playing a fighter when I can play a barbarain who effectively never runs out of rages?". By 20th level, a Bb already has Rage 6/day, so if we’re assuming an average of 4 encounters/day this means they should seldom run out, as they can only use 1/encounter. A 40th-level Bb with Rage +16, 6/day seems much better off than one with Rage +8, 11/day, especially since if they’ve taken the (non-epic) feat Extra Rage it increases to 8/day. On the other hand, if number of Rages/ day is an issue, players seem more likely to say “what’s the point of playing a Bb when I can only Rage 6/day?”, since WF/WS have no limit on uses. Currently, the balancing factor for Epic Empower is that you have to take the feat once for each time you stack it. So yes, an epic evoker could throw around some serious pain but so can a non-epic one with empower, maximize, twin, energy admix, etc... This could be a mistake on my part, but on the other hand everyone always complains that direct damage spells suck at high levels. Metamagic of this type doesn’t have that much effect at pre-epic levels; the most damage I can manage in a round using PHB spells is 210 for two 10th-level spells (twinned Chain Lightning followed by quickened Chain Lightning), but by the time levels reach the 40s, a mage can do thousands of damage/ round with multiple metamagic. The real question with metamagic is, what are you doing about multispell? Because if you’re allowing that without limit, allowing stacking empowers as well means that the damage/ round a mage can do spirals completely out of control at very high levels (even more than it already does). In my epic games, I limit multispell to 1/20 levels, ban twin spell, and disallow multiple empowers, because otherwise eventually EVERY opponent has to have universal elemental immunity (or improved evasion and a very high reflex save), or else die in the first round of combat. To counterbalance certain spells and effect that exist pre-epic I've been thinking about using feats. For example a feat that allows a physical character to shatter force effects or to dispel an opponent's personal buffs with a hit. What do you think? I’ve often thought about giving noncasters magic-like abilities at epic levels; since I also see them as “on the path to divinity” it makes sense that those who don’t channel their energies into magic consciously would still be able to do things normally only possible magically. I’d suggest looking at the maneuvers and stances from the Tome of Battle for inspiration (I only just got ToB, and one of my first thoughts was; yes, that was the sort of thing I was thinking of…). No typo. Spell levels is one of those class abilities that arbitrarily end at an inappropriate point in the level progression. I'm all for adding 10th level spells at 19th level (20th for sorcs)...in exchange for removing or seriously editing the most stupidly awesome of the high level spells. The one I was assuming was a typo was for Bd and Ra/ Pal since they only get level 6 and 4 spells respectively by level 20, and you've started them at level 11 as well. Actually, no. I made a "behind the curtain" note that I don't like increasing per day class abilities beyond level 20 because of game balance. (Yes, I increase spells per day but I explained that too) Basically, if per day abilities continue past 20th there eventually comes a point where you ask "what's the point of playing a fighter when I can play a barbarain who effectively never runs out of rages?" Granted, smites are more limited than rages but the principle still holds. For DMs who feel that 5 smites per day isn't good enough, I would point out that the problem doesn't begin with epic and would suggest a universal paladin fix rather than an epic paladin fix. (I remember seeing a paladin fix that changed smites to per encounter rather than per day) I noticed the "behind the curtain" after I wrote that and changed it to: I notice there are no class abilities listed for the Paladin. Do they continue getting extra uses of remove disease after level 20, since this is only up to 5/week by level 20? but annoyingly, the edit apparently hasn't shown up for you (it does for me). Anyway, how about limiting Smite Evil and Wild Shape to 1/encounter like Rage, instead of stopping the progression at level 20? Yes it is sort of “leap frogging” DR 0, but that’s my point. Epic heroes are already halfway divine, so I wanted to start giving them some of the more minor divine abilities. I assumed you were making epic heroes an intermediate stage between mortals and hero-deities, since the other abilities you give them are lesser versions of those acquired at rank 0. In this context, it seems odd to give them an ability rank 0 deities don’t get. Are you planning to rewrite deity rules also, or did you think this particular ability was especially suitable for epic characters, so decided to make an exception? Also, I noticed you didn’t reply to my suggestion about the -20/ +20 variant. Do I take it you don’t like that rule? I find it makes epic play make a lot more sense. Ageless is a bit sudden, and I might be convinced to change it to timeless body at 21st and then ageless at 31st, but I don’t want to deal with Extended Life Span. I don’t think anyone really wants to go through all that mess of math for such an anticlimactic event as natural death. I don't think it's a "mess of math" - you just add the same amount on to their maximum age every time they get the feat (since they have timeless body, you don't need to worry about when they become middle aged/ old-aged/ venerable). But if you don't like it, I think the idea of timeless body followed by ageless later (I'd say level 41 myself, but YCMV) makes more sense. I made a note of how I calculate wealth, which is a little different than whatever formula (if any) that WotC uses. Basically I estimate a generous number and power of items a PC of a given level should have, and that becomes that level’s wealth guideline. I did read your explanation. I’m not arguing with your method in general. Your system seems to work OK from level 22+, increasing in reasonable increments. What doesn’t make sense to me is the sudden doubling from level 20 to 21. I think if you’re using this system, you need to apply it to non-epic levels as well. Do you plan to do this, or are you happy with the large jump in wealth on attaining epic levels? Yes, I allow +10 boosters for pre-epic characters but I also don’t allow inherent bonuses. The most important reason being that I like PCs to be able to advance their items and stats at a steady and consistent pace rather than scraping for a +2 booster at low levels but then ending up with a +6 booster plus a +5 tome at later levels almost all at once. Also, three increments of +2 just doesn’t fit neatly into 20 levels. This seems fair enough to me, but it’s a house rule rather than an epic fix. (Although to be fair, you did warn us you’d be “sneaking a few things in” you use at all levels). I’d suggest listing it as an optional rule, like the “on the path to divinity” epic traits. My houserule is that any ability-boosting item requires 3x the caster level of the bonus it gives, just like weapons & armour. It seems to work OK. This is very true, even cantrips have their place in epic play. I’ve been trying to decide what to do about spells like MD and TS but haven’t come to a conclusive decision. I might end up simply recommending that epic DMs ban them because they’re supposed to be the very pinnacle of power, a concept that is hard to fit into an epic game. Not to mention the fact that such spells cause the most problems in general. I use Witch’s nerf of MDJ, which basically treats it as an improved Greater Dispel Magic, with a maximum of +30 caster level to the dispel check. But that wasn’t really my point; I meant that there are quite a few mid-high level spells which retain their usefulness into high-epic levels, of which MDJ and TS are just the most extreme examples. By giving epic mages a fast-increasing number of spells/ day, you’re removing one of the few advantages noncasters have over casters; that casters are nearly useless after the first few encounters, while noncasters can go on all day. If a 20th-level mage has used up all of their spells above level 3, they’re nearly helpless against opponents who are anywhere near their CR, but a 40th-level mage who’s used up all their spells above level 13 is still has a huge range of options; even ignoring obvious problem spells like TS and MDJ, they can still use greater teleport, resurrection, true seeing or whatever. ... as such should be considered optional as Taeldrin said. Actually, that was me :)
Tequila_Sunrise 12-11-07, 02:19 AM	OK, I'll have to wait to see the rest of it before I can decide what I think. I recently posted my epic dragon progression, which is basically a guideline to create a dragon of any CR. More progressions will come but I posted the dragon first because it’s the simplest thanks to the 10 types in the MM. Almost all I had to do was cut and paste the chromatic dragon stats, though I had to lower the dragon natural AC progression from 1.5 per CR to 1.25 per CR so that any character of appropriate level would have a decent chance to hit it. (My assumption is that any character who plans to mix it up in combat will have at least an average BAB, a full powered stat booster and a full powered weapon which means their total AB will advance at +1.25 per level) Since you allow EWFoc/ Spec to be taken once every 8 levels each, it’s clearly necessary for the Bb to get fast-increasing Rage bonuses to keep them playable compared to the Ftr. However, it seems odd that you give them this, but later say "what's the point of playing a fighter when I can play a barbarain who effectively never runs out of rages?". By 20th level, a Bb already has Rage 6/day, so if we’re assuming an average of 4 encounters/day this means they should seldom run out, as they can only use 1/encounter. A 40th-level Bb with Rage +16, 6/day seems much better off than one with Rage +8, 11/day, especially since if they’ve taken the (non-epic) feat Extra Rage it increases to 8/day. On the other hand, if number of Rages/ day is an issue, players seem more likely to say “what’s the point of playing a Bb when I can only Rage 6/day?”, since WF/WS have no limit on uses. If I were writing 3.75 core, I would reduce rages per day—probably to a max of 4 to keep in line with the assumed average of four encounters per day. I may yet do this but for now I don’t want to add too many of my nitpicky fixes into epic 3.75. Although unusual, a barbarian who goes through a lot of small encounters per day would run out of rages despite his 6/day, so keeping epic barbs at 6/day at least preserves a semblance of balance. The real question with metamagic is, what are you doing about multispell? Because if you’re allowing that without limit, allowing stacking empowers as well means that the damage/ round a mage can do spirals completely out of control at very high levels (even more than it already does). In my epic games, I limit multispell to 1/20 levels, ban twin spell, and disallow multiple empowers, because otherwise eventually EVERY opponent has to have universal elemental immunity (or improved evasion and a very high reflex save), or else die in the first round of combat. I should have mentioned in the feats post that I won’t be using multispell. I think that one feat is the thing that screams “WIZARDS PWN ALL!!!” the loudest in the ELH, aside from Epic Spell Casting. I really try to stay away from options that grant extra actions, especially actions that can be used to cast spells. Also, no Improved Metamagic. Just because you’re an epic spell caster doesn’t mean you should get palaces for pennies. I’ve often thought about giving noncasters magic-like abilities at epic levels; since I also see them as “on the path to divinity” it makes sense that those who don’t channel their energies into magic consciously would still be able to do things normally only possible magically. I’d suggest looking at the maneuvers and stances from the Tome of Battle for inspiration (I only just got ToB, and one of my first thoughts was; yes, that was the sort of thing I was thinking of…). I like that idea! It goes perfectly with the semi-divine theme and it already has precedence in the form of Blinding Speed. The one I was assuming was a typo was for Bd and Ra/ Pal since they only get level 6 and 4 spells respectively by level 20, and you've started them at level 11 as well. My bad, but still no typo. I originally started epic bard spell levels at 7 just like I started epic wizard spell levels at 10, but I changed it because I decided that pre-epic spell levels were arbitrarily counterintuitive anyway so…what the heck? I don’t have any particular reason for doing so other than it fits my sense of symmetry. I notice there are no class abilities listed for the Paladin. Do they continue getting extra uses of remove disease after level 20, since this is only up to 5/week by level 20? No. Not because it would be overpowered or anything, but just to be consistent with my ‘no extra uses per X’ theme. I’ll eventually get around to spelling out exactly what abilities of each class advances beyond 20th…although some of them I’m not sure about. For example, I feel like monk unarmed damage should continue to advance despite its non-linear nature but haven’t decided for sure yet. Anyway, how about limiting Smite Evil and Wild Shape to 1/encounter like Rage, instead of stopping the progression at level 20? I think I’ll recommend that Smite be made a per encounter ability, rather than feeling bad about cutting it off at 20th. I decided to assume the Shape Shift variant from PHBII, which is an at-will ability. That makes it pretty damn awesome, but I like it better than the problems of Wild Shape. I assumed you were making epic heroes an intermediate stage between mortals and hero-deities, since the other abilities you give them are lesser versions of those acquired at rank 0. In this context, it seems odd to give them an ability rank 0 deities don’t get. Are you planning to rewrite deity rules also, or did you think this particular ability was especially suitable for epic characters, so decided to make an exception? Oops, didn’t read your comment right. To explain, I don’t like the standard Divine Rank rules but to put epic levels into the context of my ideas, a character of level 21 to 40 would be DR 0 while a character of 41 to 60 levels are DR 1 to 20. So to my mind a character of 21 level and onward should be slowly picking up feats and abilities that will eventually make them deific. Though these abilities aren’t necessarily what D&DG associates with a particular DR. For example I consider the No Auto Fail rule to be a relatively minor benefit so I give it at level 21, while I will never ever give any character the Maximize Everything benefit because it benefits certain character types much more than others (not to mention making a core feat completely useless). Also, I noticed you didn’t reply to my suggestion about the -20/ +20 variant. Do I take it you don’t like that rule? I find it makes epic play make a lot more sense. I don’t have any strong feelings on this variant—I don’t use it just because it’s easier to say ‘nat 20 always wins, nat 1 always loses’. I don't think it's a "mess of math" - you just add the same amount on to their maximum age every time they get the feat (since they have timeless body, you don't need to worry about when they become middle aged/ old-aged/ venerable). But if you don't like it, I think the idea of timeless body followed by ageless later (I'd say level 41 myself, but YCMV) makes more sense. I’d be inclined to grant Timeless Body at 21, Ageless at 31 and then the ability to alter your appearance of age at 41—just because it fits with my idea of how level interacts with divinity. In any case, I think I will change it to be a variant of epic play rather than the assumption. I did read your explanation. I’m not arguing with your method in general. Your system seems to work OK from level 22+, increasing in reasonable increments. What doesn’t make sense to me is the sudden doubling from level 20 to 21. I think if you’re using this system, you need to apply it to non-epic levels as well. Do you plan to do this, or are you happy with the large jump in wealth on attaining epic levels? I will add wealth guidelines for the non epic levels also. This seems fair enough to me, but it’s a house rule rather than an epic fix. (Although to be fair, you did warn us you’d be “sneaking a few things in” you use at all levels). I’d suggest listing it as an optional rule, like the “on the path to divinity” epic traits. Is it really a house rule? The DMG doesn’t list level requirements to craft stat boosters, but does it say anywhere that numerical items beyond those in the DMG are un-craftable until epic? I’ll have to take a look. The ELH lists +8 and above boosters as epic items but I tend to view supplemental materials as house rules in and of themselves. Well either way, I should at least make a note of my reasoning in the magic items post. But that wasn’t really my point; I meant that there are quite a few mid-high level spells which retain their usefulness into high-epic levels, of which MDJ and TS are just the most extreme examples. By giving epic mages a fast-increasing number of spells/ day, you’re removing one of the few advantages noncasters have over casters; that casters are nearly useless after the first few encounters, while noncasters can go on all day. If a 20th-level mage has used up all of their spells above level 3, they’re nearly helpless against opponents who are anywhere near their CR, but a 40th-level mage who’s used up all their spells above level 13 is still has a huge range of options; even ignoring obvious problem spells like TS and MDJ, they can still use greater teleport, resurrection, true seeing or whatever. I don’t have an issue with epic casters being able to drop those utility spells at the drop of a dime; they’re already there and pretty easy to use. The ones I worry about are the drastically offensive ones that lack saves like forcecage, antimagic field, antilife shell, etc… I think I’m going to make a general recommendation that DMs either ban or alter certain spell types to allow saves. (To be honest, thinking about D&D’s spell system makes me want to just drop this 3.75 project and focus on my homebrew game system that I’ve been working on.) Actually, that was me My bad!
Krusk 12-11-07, 06:25 PM	First I appreciate this, and plan to use it if any game I run goes into epic, -ive got a fairly quick paced game at level 16 now, so it might happen soonish- but I had a couple of questions about the system. Mostly on bard, paladin, and ranger spells. I notice you start them at level 11 spells. Why didnt you just use 7 8 and 9? Seems like it might be a little clunky mechanically if my list of spells goes 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 11th. Also for save DC 10+ spell level, calling them level 11 spells ups the DC a couple of points for them. I do like 99% of what I've seen though.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-11-07, 08:44 PM	First I appreciate this, and plan to use it if any game I run goes into epic, -ive got a fairly quick paced game at level 16 now, so it might happen soonish- Ah the words any designer loves to hear! Mostly on bard, paladin, and ranger spells. I notice you start them at level 11 spells. Why didnt you just use 7 8 and 9? Seems like it might be a little clunky mechanically if my list of spells goes 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 11th. Also for save DC 10+ spell level, calling them level 11 spells ups the DC a couple of points for them. Yeah I'll be changing those spell levels soon, the way they are now really doesn't work out very well.
Krusk 12-12-07, 02:22 PM	Thanks for the quick and speedy clarification.
BigGus 12-12-07, 09:46 PM	I should have mentioned in the feats post that I won’t be using multispell. I think that one feat is the thing that screams “WIZARDS PWN ALL!!!” the loudest in the ELH, aside from Epic Spell Casting. I really try to stay away from options that grant extra actions, especially actions that can be used to cast spells. Also, no Improved Metamagic. Just because you’re an epic spell caster doesn’t mean you should get palaces for pennies. Multispell makes wizards much better than sorcerers at higher-epic levels. My solution to this is a feat which allows sorcs to use one metamagic feat without increasing the casting time (an alternative version of the Arcane Preparation feat from Complete Arcane: see below), but then I had to limit multispell to 1/20 levels to stop the problem from becoming “CASTERS PWN ALL!”. But banning it entirely makes things much easier. Metamagic Expert Prerequisites: Ability to cast first-level spells spontaneously (as a Bard or Sorcerer does), any 1 metamagic feat Benefits: Choose one metamagic feat you can use. This feat does not increase the casting time of spells to which it is applied. Notes: This feat can be taken multiple times, applying to a different metamagic feat you possess each time. I prefer this to Arcane Preparation, as spontaneous casters preparing spells ahead of time doesn’t sit right with me. Since you have to take it once for each MM feat, it hasn’t caused any balance issues. I’d been using it long before CArc was published; I think I invented it myself, but it’s possible it came from some old v.3.0 book (since I can’t find it in any of my books, I’m pretty sure it was the former. If anyone has copyright on this, let me know and I’ll delete it). As for Improved Metamagic, I use a variant which decreases the total spell level of a spell which has had MM feats applied to it by 1, to a minimum of +1 per MM feat applied, rather than decreasing the spell slot adjustment of all the MM feats applied to it by 1. I find this makes the feat worthwhile, but not game-breaking. I must say I find it odd that WotC decided not to continue spell level progressions for casters past level 20, presumably because it would make them too powerful, then wrote things like MS and IMM which make them too powerful. Go figure. For example, I feel like monk unarmed damage should continue to advance despite its non-linear nature but haven’t decided for sure yet. I tried this but decided it was untenable for a game with very high-level characters. If even deities don’t go over level 60, it shouldn’t be game-breaking, however. Oops, didn’t read your comment right. To explain, I don’t like the standard Divine Rank rules but to put epic levels into the context of my ideas, a character of level 21 to 40 would be DR 0 while a character of 41 to 60 levels are DR 1 to 20. So to my mind a character of 21 level and onward should be slowly picking up feats and abilities that will eventually make them deific. Though these abilities aren’t necessarily what D&DG associates with a particular DR. For example I consider the No Auto Fail rule to be a relatively minor benefit so I give it at level 21, while I will never ever give any character the Maximize Everything benefit because it benefits certain character types much more than others (not to mention making a core feat completely useless). I’d be inclined to grant Timeless Body at 21, Ageless at 31 and then the ability to alter your appearance of age at 41—just because it fits with my idea of how level interacts with divinity. In any case, I think I will change it to be a variant of epic play rather than the assumption. Ah, I see. If levels 21-40 are the equivalent of gradually attaining DR 0, Ageless at level 31 makes sense. In my homebrew world, deification is function of level also, rather than attaining a divine rank which is independent of level (I started writing it before D&DG came out, and didn’t see any compelling reason to change it). However, one of the advantages of the DR system is that it can be applied to any campaign, whether the limit for mortals is level 20 or 100. So with that in mind; Here’s my version of how to make epic characters become gradually more divine, usable even in high-epic worlds where PCs might be over level 100 by the time they reach DR 0 (these aren’t intended as a replacement for your rules, just as an alternative some people might find useful). Aging: All characters gain the Timeless Body trait at level 21. At level 21 and every 5 levels thereafter, they gain Extended Lifespan as a bonus feat, increasing their maximum age each time. They can still take Extended Lifespan as a regular feat if they wish. Endurance: At level 21 and every level thereafter, the character gains a +1 bonus to continue performing activities over time. This works in exactly the same way as, and stacks with, the feats Endurance and Epic Endurance. Poison and Disease: At level 21, all characters become immune to poison and disease with DCs of 15 or less. At level 23 and every 2 levels thereafter, the DC to which they are immune increases by +1. The epic feat Perfect Health now increases the DC by +10 for both. (This shouldn’t actually increase the power of epic characters very much, as by level 21 most characters should have a fortitude save (with items) of at least +14. Mostly, it just stops wasting time making rolls they’d only fail on a natural 1 anyway). Movement: At level 21 and every 20 levels thereafter, the character’s base speed increases by 5ft, up to a maximum of the base speed listed for deities of their size and number of legs. For a small or medium-sized biped, this tops out at +30ft at level 121. (If your world does not contain very-high-epic mortals, you may wish to increase the frequency to 1/10 levels, or even 1/5, topping out at levels 71 and 46 respectively). Massive damage: At level 21 and every level thereafter, the threshold at which characters must make saves for death from massive damage increases by 2 points. Is it really a house rule? The DMG doesn’t list level requirements to craft stat boosters, but does it say anywhere that numerical items beyond those in the DMG are un-craftable until epic? I’ll have to take a look. The ELH lists +8 and above boosters as epic items but I tend to view supplemental materials as house rules in and of themselves. Well either way, I should at least make a note of my reasoning in the magic items post. The +6 limit is in the SRD, under “Epic Magic Items”. (To be honest, thinking about D&D’s spell system makes me want to just drop this 3.75 project and focus on my homebrew game system that I’ve been working on.) Dude, I so know what you mean. I spent 4 years working on an alternative epic magic system, before deciding a few months ago that large sections of it were unworkable. Half the work I’d done had to be scrapped (cue violins). If it weren’t for the higher-level spells (which were clearly intended to be the pinnacle of mortal power, and hence very rare in the world) creating a balanced epic system which smoothly followed on from non-epic would be so easy. BTW, I’ve just had a look at your updated system notes, and it reads much more clearly now. Good job, that man.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-14-07, 06:42 PM	Partial spell progressions fixed, Epic Campaigns begun, including Epic Powers, Epic Feats clarified, Wealth Guidelines clarified and extended! Krusk, I'd love to hear how it goes if you end up using my epic rules! I prefer this to Arcane Preparation, as spontaneous casters preparing spells ahead of time doesn’t sit right with me. Yeah abilities that change class concepts like that always felt artificial to me too. As for Improved Metamagic, I use a variant which decreases the total spell level of a spell which has had MM feats applied to it by 1, to a minimum of +1 per MM feat applied, rather than decreasing the spell slot adjustment of all the MM feats applied to it by 1. I find this makes the feat worthwhile, but not game-breaking. Do you also grant automatic spell levels or use ISC? I must say I find it odd that WotC decided not to continue spell level progressions for casters past level 20, presumably because it would make them too powerful, then wrote things like MS and IMM which make them too powerful. Go figure. I tend to give designers the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're smart and experienced folks, but feats like that really make me wonder... Ah, I see. If levels 21-40 are the equivalent of gradually attaining DR 0, Ageless at level 31 makes sense. In my homebrew world, deification is function of level also, rather than attaining a divine rank which is independent of level (I started writing it before D&DG came out, and didn’t see any compelling reason to change it). However, one of the advantages of the DR system is that it can be applied to any campaign, whether the limit for mortals is level 20 or 100. I figure if a DM wants deification to occur later than I do, they can grant divine qualities and epic powers at later levels and/or at a slower pace. Aging: All characters gain the Timeless Body trait at level 21. At level 21 and every 5 levels thereafter, they gain Extended Lifespan as a bonus feat, increasing their maximum age each time. They can still take Extended Lifespan as a regular feat if they wish. I think this is a good way of dealing with extending one's life span. I think I am just resistant to Extended Life span because I feel like it's one of those flavor points that doesn't/shouldn't require defined numbers. I know that age categories and maximum lifespan is defined right in core, but I can't imagine playing in a game in which aging penalties or dying of old age was anything more than part of the epilogue. So the idea of defining the specifics of age and natural death just feel...nitpicky to me. But whatever, different strokes for different folks. Massive damage: At level 21 and every level thereafter, the threshold at which characters must make saves for death from massive damage increases by 2 points. Ah massive damage, the rule so pointless that I have trouble remembering that not using it is a house rule. I should make a note of that. Dude, I so know what you mean. I spent 4 years working on an alternative epic magic system, before deciding a few months ago that large sections of it were unworkable. Half the work I’d done had to be scrapped (cue violins). If it weren’t for the higher-level spells (which were clearly intended to be the pinnacle of mortal power, and hence very rare in the world) creating a balanced epic system which smoothly followed on from non-epic would be so easy. Ooh, that sucks. Don't you hate that feeling when you finally realize "crap, this just isn't going to work...ever."
BigGus 12-15-07, 09:30 AM	Partial spell progressions fixed, Epic Campaigns begun, including Epic Powers, Epic Feats clarified, Wealth Guidelines clarified and extended! I like the "epic powers" idea, it gives more customisation. My only suggestion is to make some of the better ones into chains, as you've done with greater teleport. Particularly, have nondetection then mind blank. Perhaps greater dispelling or a nerfed MDJ then epic dispel, and perhaps see invisibility then true seeing. Does item attunement only work if the character who attuned the weapon is using it, or does it work for others too? Do you also grant automatic spell levels or use ISC? I grant automatic spell levels, but all classes only get 1 base spell per level after level 20. I figure if a DM wants deification to occur later than I do, they can grant divine qualities and epic powers at later levels and/or at a slower pace. True. I think this is a good way of dealing with extending one's life span. I think I am just resistant to Extended Life span because I feel like it's one of those flavor points that doesn't/shouldn't require defined numbers. I know that age categories and maximum lifespan is defined right in core, but I can't imagine playing in a game in which aging penalties or dying of old age was anything more than part of the epilogue. So the idea of defining the specifics of age and natural death just feel...nitpicky to me. But whatever, different strokes for different folks. Yeah, it's mostly just a flavour thing really. I like the idea of having ancient NPCs around the place, and if you're starting a game at high level the PCs can be ancient, without being actually immortal. Also, if you run games in different periods of your world's history, your players can potentially play the same characters at different periods in their lives. Ah massive damage, the rule so pointless that I have trouble remembering that not using it is a house rule. I should make a note of that. I like the idea that the DC increases as the damage increases, I think I'm going to adopt that. ------------------------------------------------------- A couple more points about epic feats; You have two different feats both called epic critical. Since initiative is one of the few abilities which doesn't improve at all with level (the only ways I know to increase it are Dex and feats) I don't think the Epic Initiative feat needs to grant double the bonus that Improved Initiative does, since a +4 bonus is worth just as much at epic levels as it is at non-epic.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-15-07, 04:39 PM	I'm starting a new thread with all this info right here, so maybe others will give me feedback too. I like the "epic powers" idea, it gives more customisation. My only suggestion is to make some of the better ones into chains, as you've done with greater teleport. Particularly, have nondetection then mind blank. Perhaps greater dispelling or a nerfed MDJ then epic dispel, and perhaps see invisibility then true seeing. Good idea. Does item attunement only work if the character who attuned the weapon is using it, or does it work for others too? Attuned items work just like regular items, which helps explain the presence of so many high level items lying around. You have two different feats both called epic critical. Fixed. Since initiative is one of the few abilities which doesn't improve at all with level (the only ways I know to increase it are Dex and feats) I don't think the Epic Initiative feat needs to grant double the bonus that Improved Initiative does, since a +4 bonus is worth just as much at epic levels as it is at non-epic. Good point, fixed.
BigGus 12-16-07, 09:43 AM	I recently posted my epic dragon progression, which is basically a guideline to create a dragon of any CR. More progressions will come but I posted the dragon first because it’s the simplest thanks to the 10 types in the MM. Almost all I had to do was cut and paste the chromatic dragon stats, though I had to lower the dragon natural AC progression from 1.5 per CR to 1.25 per CR so that any character of appropriate level would have a decent chance to hit it. (My assumption is that any character who plans to mix it up in combat will have at least an average BAB, a full powered stat booster and a full powered weapon which means their total AB will advance at +1.25 per level) OK, I've had a think about this now, and while I can see that it keeps monster AC in line with PC attack bonuses, I don't think it solves the fundamental problem with keeping BAB progressions different between classes past level 20. Which is that by level 60, say, a Monk has an attack bonus 15 points lower than a Fighter (this assumes they both have similar Str-boosting items and enhancement bonuses to attack, and doesn't even account for the Fighter's multiple EWFs or the Barbarian's Epic Rage). This means if the Monk has a 50-50 chance to hit something, the Fighter will only miss on a natural 1. We're back to the old "I roll a 2. I hit again. Yawn" thing. The other problem with this comes when two epic characters fight each other, rather than fighting monsters. Unless the level 60 Monk has a much better AC than the level 60 Fighter, either the Monk will never hit (except on a 20) or the Fighter will never miss (except on a 1). This means you have to be a specialised warrior if you ever want to enter combat against other characters; you can't be a mixed-role character like the Monk or Bard. (Granted, even at level 20, the +5 BAB pure warriors get is a major advantage, but it doesn't make the outcome a totally foregone conclusion like a +15 difference does). If PCs aren't going to get past level 40 or so, it doesn't have too much of an effect, so in your system where even the mightiest deities are only level 60, it's just about doable. But unless there's something I've missed, I don't think the BAB-varying-by-class thing works for an unlimited levels system. I'd suggest adding a note that if you're not using the "characters become divine by level 41" bit, then the varying BAB bit may not be usable either. I figure if a DM wants deification to occur later than I do, they can grant divine qualities and epic powers at later levels and/or at a slower pace. One thing I should have made clear; my variant is intended for DMs who like the divine ranks system, and don't want actual divinity to be level-based. It allows epic characters to slowly get closer to divinity (becoming less and less affected by time, fatigue, and certain types of damage) without ever reaching it. For DMs who are happy with level-based divinity, your system can be applied at any level, as you point out. It was in this sense that my version is an alternative to yours. A few other things I've noticed: You've changed Epic Initiative to +4 in the text for the feat, but in the intro to the epic feats section you still mention it giving +8. Why is the DC for Dispel Magic XII 1 + caster level instead of 11 + caster level? Why does your system make Improved Sneak Attack obsolete? Rogues already get +1d6/2 levels sneak attack after level 20, so I don't see the difference. PS After this I'll post on your new thread.
rob_douglas 12-20-07, 01:25 AM	Multispell makes wizards much better than sorcerers at higher-epic levels. My solution to this is a feat which allows sorcs to use one metamagic feat without increasing the casting time (an alternative version of the Arcane Preparation feat from Complete Arcane: see below), Are you familiar with the Rapid Metamagic feat, which let's you use Metamagic without the increased Casting time. I thought it was too powerful and require the user to select a metamagic feat to apply it to, but it still allows Sorcerers to use Quicken Spell, making Multispell work for them as well. I didn't think Multispell was that big a problem, given the other problem - no one ever fails a save at epic levels. You do need to control the "no save" damage dealing spells, that bypass all immunities though. I thin they are more a problem than Multispell. Nothing more boring for the wizard than to cast 1 or 2 spells - no effect, and move on to the meleer who spends 20 minutes on his turn with attacks, moves, feints, maneuvers, etc. ;) ROB
BigGus 12-20-07, 07:30 AM	Are you familiar with the Rapid Metamagic feat, which let's you use Metamagic without the increased Casting time. I thought it was too powerful and require the user to select a metamagic feat to apply it to, but it still allows Sorcerers to use Quicken Spell, making Multispell work for them as well. I didn't think Multispell was that big a problem, given the other problem - no one ever fails a save at epic levels. You do need to control the "no save" damage dealing spells, that bypass all immunities though. I thin they are more a problem than Multispell. Nothing more boring for the wizard than to cast 1 or 2 spells - no effect, and move on to the meleer who spends 20 minutes on his turn with attacks, moves, feints, maneuvers, etc. ;) ROB Ha, annoyingly enough I found out about Rapid Metamagic a couple of days after I posted that (I only got CMage recently). I'm still trying to decide whether I think it's overpowered, or whether it just restores some balance between Wizards and Sorcerers. As for multispell; the not-failing-saves thing only really matters if you have Evasion. The amount of damage you can do in a round is so much greater than noncaster classes when you have MS 3 or 4 times combined with Intensify Spell or similar, that just taking half damage doesn't do that much to mitigate it. To correct what I said before, eventually every opponent has to have either Evasion (if failing saves is rare, Improved Evasion isn't needed) or Universal Elemental Immunity to avoid dying very, very quickly. That said, I'd rather see multispell limited to 1/20 levels rather than banned outright, because if a caster can't take it the fourth time until level 81, that gives the other classes plenty of time to get silly attacks themselves.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-20-07, 02:10 PM	I play a sorcerer with metamagic specialist. He's not high enough level to use quicken or even empower, but it hasn't been a game breaker yet. When I DM I actively encourage my players to trade out their pets for alternatives like metamagic specialist--it's less bookkeeping and less "well it's a class feature, so I might as well get a pet..."
BigGus 12-24-07, 02:12 PM	Metamagic specialist? Is that from PHB2 or something?
Tequila_Sunrise 12-25-07, 03:22 AM	Yeah, PHBII. It's the one that Rob mentioned that lets the sorc cast meta'd spells without increased casting time; I may have gotten the name wrong.
BigGus 12-25-07, 07:20 PM	The thing Rob mentions is a feat from CMage called Rapid Metamagic. I got the impression the thing you were talking about was an alternate class feature, taken instead of a familiar. I looked in UA and it wasn't there, so I guessed PHB2 since I don't have it and I've heard people mention it has alternate class features in it. Am I on the right track?
Tequila_Sunrise 12-25-07, 07:35 PM	Exactly the right track. That's weird that they would print a feat in CMage that replicates a class feature from an older book. *shrug* I guess when you want to have a familiar and meta' it up...
rob_douglas 12-26-07, 12:53 AM	Yeah, I was thinking of the feat, but there is the class feature as well. I didn't allow the sorcerer IMC to take that class feature. I can't see many reasons someone wouldn't take it if they had that chance. Is a familiar really worth having at epic over metamagic specialist? I thought it was overpowered, and I made Rapid Metamagic only apply to 1 type of metamagic - so of course he chose Quicken, so I don't think that is overpowered - 2 feats and 4 levels to quicken a spell - seems a fair trade for spontaneous casting. ;) ROB
Tequila_Sunrise 12-26-07, 03:39 AM	Metamagic specialist is definitely overpowered compared to a familiar, which is why I offer it. Pets just get in the way unless they are part of a character's history/personality and the player really wants to keep track of it. Besides all I ever hear about sorcerers is whining about how underpowered they are. (I actually offer all classes with pets juicy alternative class features, a couple of which are homebrew.)